What is feminism?

[Kojote]

I'm going to jump in briefly before getting to work.

Kojote, your broad point seems to be "There are all kinds of discrimination so why don't we all work together on all of the problems instead of singling out female problems."

That's no different than saying "There are all kinds of environmental problems, why don't we all work together on fixing the environment instead of singling out one area."

The answer is that we are talking about big problems that need to be broken down into smaller problems and categorized in order to be dealt with. And it's no surprise that people will tend to throw their time and energy into problems that directly and immediately affect them.

Like you, I have limited time and money and energy. I can't support every cause, no matter how worthy. As someone who grew up on the ocean, plays on/in the ocean, and made a living on the ocean, that is the aspect of "the environment" that I will naturally want to dedicate myself to. As a woman, who has experienced sexual harassment on the job, lower pay for equal work, etc, women's rights is the aspect of "discrimination" I will naturally want to dedicate myself to.

Discrimination against women directly and immediately affects me.

I care about discrimination against black people but I am not black and therefore that discrimination will never affect me in the same way it affects a black person. I care about the rights of third world farmers but I am not a third world farmer so I will never care as much about it as they do. Do you see what I'm saying?

Feminism exists because no one cares more about the well being of women or is more motivated to fight for their rights...than women.

You're right Keroin.
And of course I understand the motivation. Even the anger that arises out of it.

But you don’t generalize that much.
Maybe you are too polite. Or just polite enough?


Generalizing is never a good idea. But with feminism it happens regularly.
And one of the questions was ‘Has it gone too far?’

I also think the fight against racism has gone too far. For pretty much the same reasons.
The problems are there and remain to be solved. But not only the wrongdoers have to adjust their attitude. The fighters also should. Because they start to resemble their adversaries more every day…

Please tell me that at least you understand the thoughts…

 

[Kojote]

OK, it sounds like you have finally got a handle on feminism. Go make me a sandwich and bring me a beer.

now go fix me some food, goddamit!

She’s cute, isn’t she?
Maybe I let her beg a little more just to let her get hungry enough that she actually would really eat what I could ‘fix’ for her…

 

[rinka]

Maybe I don't understand it completely right, but it appears to be what i kept saying over and over again...


And for the ones before I'm too tired to answer right now:
I never ever said the problems addressed by feminism don't exist.
But I keep saying that it has gone too far.

As a man I often get confronted with the issue.
Once I said jokingly to my girl that she should go to the kitchen and make me some food (actually I say this often because we decided that her cooking won’t lead to the hospital like mine). Some other woman freaked out about my chauvinistic behavior.
She pulled out the 'feminism machine gun' and pulled the trigger. Till I kicked her out.

This metaphorical gun is pulled out often. Preferably by women who don’t have that much to complain about.
And that's one big reason why it has gone to far. It became a cheap instrument of striking against somebody a woman disagrees with if he happens to be male.

And to clear that out: It also seems to be a cheap instrument of striking against males out of caprice, too.

It’s getting misused and I disdain that.

That doesn’t mean that there are no real points in the discussion. Most of you here are right to some extent.
But most of you seemingly can’t forbear to add the additional unnecessary punch to the argument.

I don’t like that personally.

That individuals sometimes use bad arguments or go too far in their eagerness to make a point doesn't mean that feminism has gone too far. Women as collective are not more responsible for every individuals actions than men are.

And some punch is needed to make the point sometimes. Racism or social injustices does not negate the fact that there are certain experiences of sexism and discrimination that women all over the world share. So these glasses are useful. I''d say necessary. Women's rights are human rights.

Yes, in the light of honorary killings, girls not having the right to education or being forced to marriage it may not seem very important how aware the teachers at my son's school are of how they treat boys and girls differently. Still it's fundamentally rooted in the same soil. One is life and death and I am engaged in that question, the other one is about raising the next generation in my society and changing the basic structure of gender roles in the long run. Also important.

 

[JMohegan]

I just read the blurb on a friend's Facebook page months ago, so I don't know all of the details. I found this link , but it doesn't have the study itself. My guess would be that housework/cooking takes less time, and that there is less time spent indepently. From my scientific studies of Mad Men episodes, I would say more TV watching, but perhaps that's just the Draper household.

I don't think parenting is necessarily better in every way or anything. I just don't think the 1950s were perfect. I think a lot of parents today micromanage their kids to an insane degree, for example. At the end of the day, you have to parent in the world we live in though, so comparisons are somewhat useless.

Per the link: "A University of Maryland study found that, on average, today's mothers spent four more hours per week focused on their kids than mothers in the 1960s did. In the '60s, mothers spent 10.2 hours a week with their children versus 14.1 hours now."

Pardon me while I lol. First, at the notion that one could collect meaningful data on this topic, especially from 40-50 years ago. And second, at the notion that 1960s stay at home moms spent only 1.5 hours/day focused on their kids.

 

[JMohegan]

I think this is one of the keys to sustainable change in traditional gender roles. Sweden has done a lot in this field, but it's a slow process. It started with the right to daycare for every child, a feminist demand from the 70s. Sweden also have an extensive general parental leave insurance - earlier maternal leave. Over the last few years this has been altered to be shared equally between parents. Each parent gets 240 days to dispose how they like. 180 of these can however be transferred to the other parent, 60 days can not.

So it's quite possible (and encouraged) to split the care for your child 50/50 during that first year or so until it starts daycare. And if you've been primary caregiver for a few months I'd say you're more likely to drop off and pick up your kid at daycare. More likely to get to know kid's friends other parents and so on. Get a headstart to be a more involved parent.

I do think this makes a difference. Not overnight, but still.

No wonder you folks are held up as a role model for the world. You, and the other Nordic countries, putting the rest of us to shame.

And for the ones before I'm too tired to answer right now:
I never ever said the problems addressed by feminism don't exist.
But I keep saying that it has gone too far.

As a man I often get confronted with the issue.
Once I said jokingly to my girl that she should go to the kitchen and make me some food (actually I say this often because we decided that her cooking won’t lead to the hospital like mine). Some other woman freaked out about my chauvinistic behavior.
She pulled out the 'feminism machine gun' and pulled the trigger. Till I kicked her out.

This metaphorical gun is pulled out often. Preferably by women who don’t have that much to complain about.
And that's one big reason why it has gone to far. It became a cheap instrument of striking against somebody a woman disagrees with if he happens to be male.

And to clear that out: It also seems to be a cheap instrument of striking against males out of caprice, too.

It’s getting misused and I disdain that.

Some women are loud and obnoxious. The same is true for plenty of men. So don't listen to the yellers and the unreasonable bitches and the people with giant fucking chips on their shoulders.

But don't confuse the broader message with the behavior of some of the messengers. Because this notion that feminism has gone too far is just asinine when applied in any tangible sense. In many respects, the gender gap can actually be measured. Pick a country from the list linked below, and check it out.

http://www.weforum.org/en/Communiti...ty/GenderGapNetwork/CountryProfiles/index.htm

 

[Kojote]

Some women are loud and obnoxious. The same is true for plenty of men. So don't listen to the yellers and the unreasonable bitches and the people with giant fucking chips on their shoulders.

But don't confuse the broader message with the behavior of some of the messengers. Because this notion that feminism has gone too far is just asinine when applied in any tangible sense. In many respects, the gender gap can actually be measured. Pick a country from the list linked below, and check it out.

http://www.weforum.org/en/Communiti...ty/GenderGapNetwork/CountryProfiles/index.htm

If I only could really explain the massive amount of discomfort with the 'right thing under the wrong flag' issue...
Maybe another example (I didn't want to use that because of suspected reactions to it and I have to say that it is rather extreme in comparison to my feelings for feminism):

I dislike Christianity.
I don't dislike the idea behind, but looking at the history of the 'flag bearers' of Christianity I cannot stand the 'general label' being presented as chaste anymore.
Too much blood on the flag. Understand?

Kinda 'The path to hell is paved with good intentions' feeling about this.

It's the same feeling but in a very, very less sincere amplitude. So please be patient with this example.
I just don't know how to explain the inherent indisposition with some perceived effects.

It's like 'If it continues to go the way it does now it will become a real problem soon'.

Maybe I shouldn’t have chipped into this discussion for lacking the vocabulary to really express my opinion…
Sorry for that.

 

[JMohegan]

If I only could really explain the massive amount of discomfort with the 'right thing under the wrong flag' issue...
Maybe another example (I didn't want to use that because of suspected reactions to it and I have to say that it is rather extreme in comparison to my feelings for feminism):

I dislike Christianity.
I don't dislike the idea behind, but looking at the history of the 'flag bearers' of Christianity I cannot stand the 'general label' being presented as chaste anymore.
Too much blood on the flag. Understand?

Kinda 'The path to hell is paved with good intentions' feeling about this.

It's the same feeling but in a very, very less sincere amplitude. So please be patient with this example.
I just don't know how to explain the inherent indisposition with some perceived effects.

It's like 'If it continues to go the way it does now it will become a real problem soon'.

Maybe I shouldn’t have chipped into this discussion for lacking the vocabulary to really express my opinion…
Sorry for that.

Your analogy sucks, but I really do understand what you're saying. However, my response is to note that there are concrete issues, of real importance, that comprise the essence of feminism.

Germany ranks 101st out of 134 countries with regard to equal pay for equal work. I'd say that's a fuckload more important than a German male's pissed off reaction to anecdotal female stridency.

 

[Kojote]

Your analogy sucks, but I really do understand what you're saying. However, my response is to note that there are concrete issues, of real importance, that comprise the essence of feminism.

Germany ranks 101st out of 134 countries with regard to equal pay for equal work. I'd say that's a fuckload more important than a German male's pissed off reaction to anecdotal female stridency.

Hey...
It's about opinions and my opinion is about the tone.
If the issue can't stand a criticism of the tone of the fight something’s wrong with it.
Again: My opinion.

What's wrong with asking for some civility?
Even if anger may be understandable.

You may find it okay to fight for the issue without regard of the tone. I do not. At least if the person in question doesn’t want to get judged by exactly this.

And before you mention it again: I don’t judge every woman by the stridency of some.
I just never happened to meet a woman personally who could argue without exceedingly aggravating stridency during the discussion. Even if I totally agreed with her and tried to avoid every provocation (yes I am able to talk that way).

It's not what you say, but how you say it. (actually in Germany we say ‘The tone sets the melody’.)
Even without my personal dislike I think I am totally right with pointing out that the reaction to feminism might worsen every time the argument changes to a brawl.
And therefore I find the advice to think that over and adjust the attitude a bit not disrespectful or disparaging but rather well-meaning (maybe another word would fit better here for this sounds pretty patronizing and isn’t meant that way).

Got it?

 

[where]

I'm going to be that annoying Marxist bitch and say that I really believe the whole question is now more a matter of class than sex/race/whatever. That is not to say sexism, racism, etc. don't exist. They do. Obviously. But I think, realistically, sexism and racism (as byproducts of classism) are things that the lower and working classes have to deal with on a much larger scale than the middle and upper classes. Thus, as Netz said earlier, making most of the "Feminist" concerns purely academic.

One of my best friends and I were discussing this this weekend. (She's black.) This rich bitch we are unfortunately acquainted with did the "ew, icky brown person" thing to her, and the following conversation ensued between the two of us afterward.

Me: Can I be a bitch and say something?
Her: Of course.
Me: She wants to be a racist cunt, but, by rights, shouldn't I hate you more than she does, with her being the rich elitist white person with the noblesse oblige shit and me being the poor white trash from the rural area?
Her: *Laughing* Yes!
Me: I guarantee you if you were a rich black person, she wouldn't have cared.
Her: Yep. If I'd been dressed up and still had my hair straightened, she wouldn't have batted an eye.
Me: Then, she'd have just wondered what such a "nice-looking black person" was doing with such a trashy-looking white girl.
Her: God, I hate people.
Me: Me, too.

(For the record, we weren't dressed up because we were MOVING stuff.)

I'm not entirely sure what this has to do with the conversation, but for some reason, I thought about this thread as it was going on, so I decided I would share.

well there is never ever just 'one' thing is there? in societies, especially diverse and complex ones, it's a whole interplay of which gender is but one part, and there are differences in extremity of gender discrimination dependent on the the culture, class and generation.

I think this is one of the keys to sustainable change in traditional gender roles. Sweden has done a lot in this field, but it's a slow process. It started with the right to daycare for every child, a feminist demand from the 70s. Sweden also have an extensive general parental leave insurance - earlier maternal leave. Over the last few years this has been altered to be shared equally between parents. Each parent gets 240 days to dispose how they like. 180 of these can however be transferred to the other parent, 60 days can not.

So it's quite possible (and encouraged) to split the care for your child 50/50 during that first year or so until it starts daycare. And if you've been primary caregiver for a few months I'd say you're more likely to drop off and pick up your kid at daycare. More likely to get to know kid's friends other parents and so on. Get a headstart to be a more involved parent.

I do think this makes a difference. Not overnight, but still.

heh, I was arguing with someone on the GB and they were saying how Sweden had gone too far and the feminist pressure there had resulted in some bad policy decisions. I would have loved to have seen your input into it

But I keep saying that it has gone too far.

you do keep saying this but you still haven't given an example of how it has gone too far or some indication of why or how women have some kind of unfair advantage.

She’s cute, isn’t she?
Maybe I let her beg a little more just to let her get hungry enough that she actually would really eat what I could ‘fix’ for her…

as long as it's dead, I'll eat anything.

 

[Kojote]

you do keep saying this but you still haven't given an example of how it has gone too far or some indication of why or how women have some kind of unfair advantage.

I feel like doing nothing else than explaining how it has gone too far. But I may do it bad...
And apart from an early point in the discussion where we talked about the draft thing as example for an unfair advantage of women in Germany I didn't even want to point out any unfair advantages of women or deny the fact that women get treated unequal.

I start thinking I'm writing in swahili...

as long as it's dead, I'll eat anything.

Now we are talking. Some burned dead animal with a little alibi toast underneath and some german beer? Come over here and get your share...

 

[where]

I feel like doing nothing else than explaining how it has gone too far. But I may do it bad...
And apart from an early point in the discussion where we talked about the draft thing as example for an unfair advantage of women in Germany I didn't even want to point out any unfair advantages of women or deny the fact that women get treated unequal.

I start thinking I'm writing in swahili...



Now we are talking. Some burned dead animal with a little alibi toast underneath and some german beer? Come over here and get your share...

could be a language thing. I will give you one to help you out though, cause I'm nice like that.

In the UK we moved over to educational assessment by coursework, partly because girls tended to do worse in exams than boys, and as a result girls now attain much higher qualifications than boys. Because of boys' poor performance, there is now a move back to more exam based assessment.

I don't knw what alibi toast is but the dead animal sounds good as does the beer. as long as you don't mind the ensuing farts.

 

[intothewoods]

Per the link: "A University of Maryland study found that, on average, today's mothers spent four more hours per week focused on their kids than mothers in the 1960s did. In the '60s, mothers spent 10.2 hours a week with their children versus 14.1 hours now."

Pardon me while I lol. First, at the notion that one could collect meaningful data on this topic, especially from 40-50 years ago. And second, at the notion that 1960s stay at home moms spent only 1.5 hours/day focused on their kids.

Out of curiousity, did your mother have any help? Did many moms in the neighborhood have help?

 

[Netzach]

My own family, 3 kids, no help, reports of actual "quality time" versus herding indoors for feeding, RARE.

 

[JMohegan]

Hey...
It's about opinions and my opinion is about the tone.
If the issue can't stand a criticism of the tone of the fight something’s wrong with it.
Again: My opinion.

What's wrong with asking for some civility?
Even if anger may be understandable.

You may find it okay to fight for the issue without regard of the tone. I do not. At least if the person in question doesn’t want to get judged by exactly this.

And before you mention it again: I don’t judge every woman by the stridency of some.
I just never happened to meet a woman personally who could argue without exceedingly aggravating stridency during the discussion. Even if I totally agreed with her and tried to avoid every provocation (yes I am able to talk that way).

It's not what you say, but how you say it. (actually in Germany we say ‘The tone sets the melody’.)
Even without my personal dislike I think I am totally right with pointing out that the reaction to feminism might worsen every time the argument changes to a brawl.
And therefore I find the advice to think that over and adjust the attitude a bit not disrespectful or disparaging but rather well-meaning (maybe another word would fit better here for this sounds pretty patronizing and isn’t meant that way).

Got it?

Re the bold - not one? Ever? Over how many years and how many discussions on the topic of women's rights?

It's tempting to conclude that your definition of aggravating female stridency is anything beyond soft-spoken acquiescence.

Look, Kojote, if you want to say that some women do feminism no favors by the way they present or argue the issues, then you and I are in firm agreement. Further, I know how it feels to be personally judged in a way that seems profoundly unfair. If I don't know the one doing the judging, then it's easy to just roll my eyes and ignore it; if I do know the one doing the judging, then if can be incredibly frustrating. If I feel as though someone isn't listening to me, I stop listening to them. If it seems as if they're just using me as verbal punching bag du jour, I tell them to fuck off.

In short, as a general concept, I really do get what you're saying.

But back to the bold - seriously? Come on. Not a single one?

 

[Netzach]

Re the bold - not one? Ever? Over how many years and how many discussions on the topic of women's rights?

It's tempting to conclude that your definition of aggravating female stridency is anything beyond soft-spoken acquiescence.

Look, Kojote, if you want to say that some women do feminism no favors by the way they present or argue the issues, then you and I are in firm agreement. Further, I know how it feels to be personally judged in a way that seems profoundly unfair. If I don't know the one doing the judging, then it's easy to just roll my eyes and ignore it; if I do know the one doing the judging, then if can be incredibly frustrating. If I feel as though someone isn't listening to me, I stop listening to them. If it seems as if they're just using me as verbal punching bag du jour, I tell them to fuck off.

In short, as a general concept, I really do get what you're saying.

But back to the bold - seriously? Come on. Not a single one?

So the trade off is "be nice or no one will listen" concern trolling. Name me one single oppressed party who ever got their rights by doffing their hat and politely going "excuse me, I say, there seems to be an appearance of inequality here, I'm sure you may have noticed some inconsistencies, mind a change?"

Seriously. I should go back to the ham avatar - that's really an interesting social experiment. The tone of dialogue would change whenever an adversary was told "she's female you idiot." The "kosher ham" was rarely told it wasn't being nice enough.

I've rarely met a man who felt uncomfortable about treating the world to his thoughts and the importance thereof, or one who won't take a swing at someone swinging at him. The standards for "nice enough" are vastly different for men and women and men in general could not conform to them and stay sane.

 

[JMohegan]

Out of curiousity, did your mother have any help? Did many moms in the neighborhood have help?

Help from the fathers, or help as in nanny or maid?

My dad worked, so he wasn't around nearly as much. But he spent a lot of time with me on the weekends, and dinner + maybe an hour or so on weeknights.

Mrs. G had a maid, but that was unusual for the neighborhood at the time. And I never knew anyone who had a nanny or au pair.

But keep in mind that all these mothers were home while we were in school. And I never knew a single mom who looked like that high-maintenance chick whose picture you said fascinated you so much! So I find it highly unlikely that they spent school hours sitting around getting their hair poofed or doing their nails.

 

[JMohegan]

The standards for "nice enough" are vastly different for men and women and men in general could not conform to them and stay sane.

This is so fucking true.

 

[Netzach]

This is so fucking true.

To be fair, I have found that men who do adopt a little of that social tone when working in a mixed environment do well though - men who are able to do some of those social soother behaviors, like the meaning-free politeness "apology" gesture, or things like that.

Or women who notice when they're doing it, as I've spent a lot of time trying to do, and who adjust their style. I was VERY heavy on the apologetic and ingratiating tone in school and I'm really grateful for the teacher who said "why are you doing that - there's no need." My confidence was pretty much born that day.

Haha, come to think of it she was a lovely older West German lady!

We could all learn from the other.

 

[intothewoods]

My own family, 3 kids, no help, reports of actual "quality time" versus herding indoors for feeding, RARE.

Honestly, I referenced that study in half-jest. I just don't think that the 50s or 60s were so much better than today for raising kids. It all depends.

I've rarely met a man who felt uncomfortable about treating the world to his thoughts and the importance thereof, or one who won't take a swing at someone swinging at him. The standards for "nice enough" are vastly different for men and women and men in general could not conform to them and stay sane.

I have to agree and it was kind of the story of my life growing up. My kid attends a school with pretty enlightened, self-aware teachers, but I still see time and time again that teachers (and people generally) are uncomfortable with personality traits in girls that are absolutely praised and admired in boys. I can't believe how often my kid has been called charming and a good leader when it could just as easily be described as loud or bossy.

Help from the fathers, or help as in nanny or maid?

My dad worked, so he wasn't around nearly as much. But he spent a lot of time with me on the weekends, and dinner + maybe an hour or so on weeknights.

Mrs. G had a maid, but that was unusual for the neighborhood at the time. And I never knew anyone who had a nanny or au pair.

But keep in mind that all these mothers were home while we were in school. And I never knew a single mom who looked like that high-maintenance chick whose picture you said fascinated you so much! So I find it highly unlikely that they spent school hours sitting around getting their hair poofed or doing their nails.

Nanny or maid. Did they look like this? http://newdressaday.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/betty-draper.jpg http://newdressaday.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/betty-draper.jpg

ETA: I don't know any moms who look like the OC housewife either! Botox and that much bleach are not so common in these parts.

 

[JMohegan]

Nanny or maid. Did they look like this? http://newdressaday.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/betty-draper.jpg http://newdressaday.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/betty-draper.jpg

ETA: I don't know any moms who look like the OC housewife either! Botox and that much bleach are not so common in these parts.

Look like that in what respect?

That image seems to show a female who's pissed off at an adult male. I'm assuming it's an adult she's looking at, because of the wine and the fancy dress.

Also, I'm lol'ing at the Hostess book on that fancy stand. Presumably that's for recipes? My mother's recipe book was Betty Crocker, and red.

Also - the style of the oven looks right for the times, but no one I knew had double ovens like that.

 

[intothewoods]

Look like that in what respect?

That image seems to show a female who's pissed off at an adult male. I'm assuming it's an adult she's looking at, because of the wine and the fancy dress.

Also, I'm lol'ing at the Hostess book on that fancy stand. Presumably that's for recipes? My mother's recipe book was Betty Crocker, and red.

Also - the style of the oven looks right for the times, but no one I knew had double ovens like that.

Hair done, nice day dress, all put together. The Drapers are upper-middle class, although the husband makes a lot more money as the show progresses. By the third season, they have a full time maid. It's very possible she's pissed off at an adult male in this pic, but she kind of always looks like that.

 

[JMohegan]

Hair done, nice day dress, all put together. The Drapers are upper-middle class, although the husband makes a lot more money as the show progresses. By the third season, they have a full time maid. It's very possible she's pissed off at an adult male in this pic, but she kind of always looks like that.

I would not have pegged the woman in that photo as an actual mother. She looks more like my sister's Barbie from back in the day, or like a woman on a TV ad for washing machines or something.

Never heard of the Drapers.

My mother always looked nice, to me, when I was a kid. I don't really know how to describe her clothing. Nice and neat, but not fancy. I don't remember a lot of jewelry. Her hair did flip up at the bottom like that for a while. Isn't that how Jackie Kennedy had her hair? Maybe it was the style. My mother was very, very pretty. Nearly always smiling, talking, laughing. Firm but fair, warm & loving. And she never looked bitchy mad, like that Draper woman. Sometimes she would look disappointed mad, or exasperated mad, or sincerely outraged mad, or something like that. I'm not sure how to describe this, really.

 

[Kojote]

I don't knw what alibi toast is but the dead animal sounds good as does the beer. as long as you don't mind the ensuing farts.

Lightly burned piece of white bread. If you add it to the meat nobody can accuse you to be a complete carnivore. Therefore it’s an alibi.
And you won’t fart from our meat or beer. We add certain totally illegal substances to ensure that everybody gets addicted by the smell alone. No farting anymore is a side effect…

(I must be totally drunk to actually post this shit…)

could be a language thing. I will give you one to help you out though, cause I'm nice like that.

In the UK we moved over to educational assessment by coursework, partly because girls tended to do worse in exams than boys, and as a result girls now attain much higher qualifications than boys. Because of boys' poor performance, there is now a move back to more exam based assessment.

Don’t get this one.
I understand the example in itself but don’t understand how it could help me.
Is it meant to be a counter-example?

Re the bold - not one? Ever? Over how many years and how many discussions on the topic of women's rights?

It's tempting to conclude that your definition of aggravating female stridency is anything beyond soft-spoken acquiescence.

Look, Kojote, if you want to say that some women do feminism no favors by the way they present or argue the issues, then you and I are in firm agreement. Further, I know how it feels to be personally judged in a way that seems profoundly unfair. If I don't know the one doing the judging, then it's easy to just roll my eyes and ignore it; if I do know the one doing the judging, then if can be incredibly frustrating. If I feel as though someone isn't listening to me, I stop listening to them. If it seems as if they're just using me as verbal punching bag du jour, I tell them to fuck off.

In short, as a general concept, I really do get what you're saying.

But back to the bold - seriously? Come on. Not a single one?

None I remember. What doesn't mean exactly none.
But to be fair unusual polite discussions tended to drag on. And I did my share to piss my adversary off if nobody else did.
I tend to do this kind of shit in discussions to bring out the true feelings about the issues.

But anyway there are women I know who wouldn't aggravate it. I know some personally and we never discussed the topic. We don't need to because both sides know the other agrees in the important points...

Did I mention that I hate you when you are investigative this way?

I think we are in loose agreement regarding the general issue. And I believe you understand my point of view.
In addition I will admit that I understand nearly all points of the others.
Even that some female aggression may be necessary for being heard anyway.

But I don’t like it. In fact I hate it.
Why has the modern human to be that way? Why can’t we all show that little bit altruism needed to get along way better?
But I’m not free from bitching around. Think you already noticed it, didn’t you?

Sorry for that.

We could all learn from the other.

I actually did learn a lot from the whole argument.
Due to some combination of general attitude in here, language difficulties which compelled me to read and formulate rather careful and the amazing tendency of the attending women not to freak out completely but to stick with reasoning (and only a bit [absolutely adorable] bitching) it took me farther than most discussions about the topic.
Most often they tend to end in stupidly accusing the other side over and over again and losing track of the real matter.

Thank you for that. Most things were already in my head but the different points of view were very interesting though.

 

[intothewoods]

I would not have pegged the woman in that photo as an actual mother. She looks more like my sister's Barbie from back in the day, or like a woman on a TV ad for washing machines or something.

Never heard of the Drapers.

My mother always looked nice, to me, when I was a kid. I don't really know how to describe her clothing. Nice and neat, but not fancy. I don't remember a lot of jewelry. Her hair did flip up at the bottom like that for a while. Isn't that how Jackie Kennedy had her hair? Maybe it was the style. My mother was very, very pretty. Nearly always smiling, talking, laughing. Firm but fair, warm & loving. And she never looked bitchy mad, like that Draper woman. Sometimes she would look disappointed mad, or exasperated mad, or sincerely outraged mad, or something like that. I'm not sure how to describe this, really.

To be fair, she's not really known for her parenting skills. The Drapers are the main characters in Mad Men. I know you don't like TV, but you should really check this series out. It's fantastic. And yes, that was definitely the style.

Thanks for the description. I don't really have a personal feel for this time period, since my parents mostly like to talk about the late 60s, early 70s.

 

[satindesire]

http://newdressaday.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/betty-draper.jpg

Is it sick if I say this is my dream life right here?

Sometimes she would look disappointed mad, or exasperated mad, or sincerely outraged mad, or something like that. I'm not sure how to describe this, really.

You described it perfectly! A person -can- be mad without being a mean ole bitch.