What is feminism?

[JMohegan]

I really don’t think it is that simple.

Many Arabs and Turks live in Germany. Forced marriages of young girls happen. There have been a few honour killings of women who wanted to live differently.

While the girls grow up they are constantly told by their families and religious leaders that the Western way of living is evil. Children believe their parents. Their free time is mostly spent with other Muslims who reinforce the ideas.
A Muslim friend has told me that she always feels watched by other Muslims. It is a parallel society.

Many girls agree to arranged marriages right after school and then there is pressure to get a baby. Because everybody around them lives the same way they don’t see it as a choice. They often go from the control of their fathers and brothers directly to the control of their husbands.
Living differently would likely mean no further contact to their relatives and to their friends. That is not a simple decision.

Sounds similar to polygamous Mormon communities, here in the U.S.

You're right; walking out seems far from simple in those cases. And even in less extreme situations, individuals surely face difficult challenges in rejecting the religious tenets with which they were raised. Pressure or ostracism from family and friends. Nagging doubts or guilt.

But in my view, individuals do bear responsibility for the code and collective pressures of the organizations to which they give their allegiance. If you, as an adult, attend a church that openly denounces gays as sinners and actively fights against gay rights, then you bear a measure of responsibility for the church's homophobic behavior. If you, as an adult of either gender, attend a mosque that forces underage girls into arranged marriages, then you bear a measure of responsibility for that practice. And so on. Difficult though it may be to exercise your choice, in a free and secular society you do have one. And you bear responsibility for what you choose.

 

[WriterDom]

But in my view, individuals do bear responsibility for the code and collective pressures of the organizations to which they give their allegiance. If you, as an adult, attend a church that openly denounces gays as sinners and actively fights against gay rights, then you bear a measure of responsibility for the church's homophobic behavior. If you, as an adult of either gender, attend a mosque that forces underage girls into arranged marriages, then you bear a measure of responsibility for that practice. And so on. Difficult though it may be to exercise your choice, in a free and secular society you do have one. And you bear responsibility for what you choose.

The problem with that is the bible openly denounces gays as sinners. Denominations like the Baptists or any other in that vein and there are many, believe in a literal translation of the bible and nothing is going to change their mind. And yes I know that the bible was used to justify both slavery and segregation, but that was more of a case of people grasping at straws and not biblical.

There are other churches who are more liberal in their thinking but the cater more to the upper middle class. In small Southern towns anyway. You might have one Episcopal, one or two Methodists, and one Presbyterian in county and literally four pages of Baptists or god help us, denominations more conservative then Baptists in the phone book.

I think most would be more concerned about your soul rather than your judgement of them.

Personally, I think one has to right to see homosexuality as a choice rather than being born that way. Not that I agree with it but people have the right to believe what they believe. I would caution anyone in a government school from making such a statement like this girl found out

http://abcnews.go.com/US/georgia-student-sues-university-lgbt-sensitivity-training/story?id=11261490

And if you ever want to be Miss America you better embrace gay marriage.

 

[Tabea]

Difficult though it may be to exercise your choice, in a free and secular society you do have one.

There are some Muslim women in Germany who do not have a choice to leave. They have well-founded fears because of cases like these:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,344374,00.html

 

[BiBunny]

The problem with that is the bible openly denounces gays as sinners. Denominations like the Baptists or any other in that vein and there are many, believe in a literal translation of the bible and nothing is going to change their mind. And yes I know that the bible was used to justify both slavery and segregation, but that was more of a case of people grasping at straws and not biblical.

There are other churches who are more liberal in their thinking but the cater more to the upper middle class. In small Southern towns anyway. You might have one Episcopal, one or two Methodists, and one Presbyterian in county and literally four pages of Baptists or god help us, denominations more conservative then Baptists in the phone book.

I think most would be more concerned about your soul rather than your judgement of them.

Personally, I think one has to right to see homosexuality as a choice rather than being born that way. Not that I agree with it but people have the right to believe what they believe. I would caution anyone in a government school from making such a statement like this girl found out

http://abcnews.go.com/US/georgia-student-sues-university-lgbt-sensitivity-training/story?id=11261490

And if you ever want to be Miss America you better embrace gay marriage.

The Southern Baptist Church is probably the worst thing that ever happened to poor white people.

 

[Tabea]

But in my view, individuals do bear responsibility for the code and collective pressures of the organizations to which they give their allegiance. If you, as an adult, attend a church that openly denounces gays as sinners and actively fights against gay rights, then you bear a measure of responsibility for the church's homophobic behavior. If you, as an adult of either gender, attend a mosque that forces underage girls into arranged marriages, then you bear a measure of responsibility for that practice.

I think you often only have limited responsibility for other people's actions.

Even though you are American and made the choice not to leave you are not responsible for the Iraq war or Guantanamo.
If you are a member or a supporter of a political party you are not responsible for all actions of that party.

In the same vain I don't think all Catholics are responsible for the pope's prohibition of birth control and thus helping to spread HIV in Africa.
The Catholic church is a huge organisation, they also have many humanitarian projects. It seems possible for all Catholics I know to identify with their church while disagreeing with quite a lot of what the pope is saying. You can't start a new church just because you dislike some things. No organisation can be perfect.

I am Protestant. There are blessings for homosexual marriages in my church and it is generally quite modern. I don't feel this makes me more or less responsible for anything than my Catholic sister. It doesn't mean either of us is a better person.

 

[JMohegan]

The problem with that is the bible openly denounces gays as sinners. Denominations like the Baptists or any other in that vein and there are many, believe in a literal translation of the bible and nothing is going to change their mind. And yes I know that the bible was used to justify both slavery and segregation, but that was more of a case of people grasping at straws and not biblical.

There are other churches who are more liberal in their thinking but the cater more to the upper middle class. In small Southern towns anyway. You might have one Episcopal, one or two Methodists, and one Presbyterian in county and literally four pages of Baptists or god help us, denominations more conservative then Baptists in the phone book.

I think most would be more concerned about your soul rather than your judgement of them.

Personally, I think one has to right to see homosexuality as a choice rather than being born that way. Not that I agree with it but people have the right to believe what they believe. I would caution anyone in a government school from making such a statement like this girl found out

http://abcnews.go.com/US/georgia-student-sues-university-lgbt-sensitivity-training/story?id=11261490

And if you ever want to be Miss America you better embrace gay marriage.

I will never understand why people believe that the Bible presents the word of god. But yes, of course you're right. If someone believes that story, then anything I tell them will be meaningless. Divine Being with power over eternity and a lust for vengeance trumps random fellow human, every time.

As for homosexuality, I agree that people have a right to believe whatever they want to believe - as long as they keep it to themselves. Carrie Prejean should feel free not to marry a female; but there's no decent justification for her opposition to the union of other females with each other.

 

[BiBunny]

I will never understand why people believe that the Bible presents the word of god.

Brainwashing, more or less.

 

[JMohegan]

There are some Muslim women in Germany who do not have a choice to leave. They have well-founded fears because of cases like these:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,344374,00.html

A similar problem exists for abused women, all over the United States.

What is the response of German authorities? Are the murderers, and their accomplices, actively pursued and brought to justice?

I think you often only have limited responsibility for other people's actions.

Even though you are American and made the choice not to leave you are not responsible for the Iraq war or Guantanamo.
If you are a member or a supporter of a political party you are not responsible for all actions of that party.

In the same vain I don't think all Catholics are responsible for the pope's prohibition of birth control and thus helping to spread HIV in Africa.
The Catholic church is a huge organisation, they also have many humanitarian projects. It seems possible for all Catholics I know to identify with their church while disagreeing with quite a lot of what the pope is saying. You can't start a new church just because you dislike some things. No organisation can be perfect.

I am Protestant. There are blessings for homosexual marriages in my church and it is generally quite modern. I don't feel this makes me more or less responsible for anything than my Catholic sister. It doesn't mean either of us is a better person.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this point.

You can leave an organization, or stay and work to change it. But if you give your allegiance to an organization and passively accept the wrong within it, then you share culpability for that wrong, in my view.

 

[JMohegan]

Brainwashing, more or less.

I was "brainwashed" too, in a way. Raised to respect a set of values that I hold dear. But those include a profound sense of personal responsibility, as well as a personal duty to question and evaluate. I was raised to think.

Sometimes I wonder if a lot of the faith thing stems not from surety, but from a desperate hope. Reward for good deeds, punishment for the wicked. Ultimate peace and justice. And of course, eternal bliss with your loved ones. As fantasies go, that's hard to beat.

 

[BiBunny]

I was "brainwashed" too, in a way. Raised to respect a set of values that I hold dear. But those include a profound sense of personal responsibility, as well as a personal duty to question and evaluate. I was raised to think.

Sometimes I wonder if a lot of the faith thing stems not from surety, but from a desperate hope. Reward for good deeds, punishment for the wicked. Ultimate peace and justice. And of course, eternal bliss with your loved ones. As fantasies go, that's hard to beat.

It's partly that, yes.

It's also partly a matter of social class, ostracism if you don't toe the party line, and important church people lining their pockets at the expense of the working class people who buy into the party line, lock, stock, and barrel. The Southern Baptist Church is very much centered around fear as a way to both win new converts and keep old ones. I know; I grew up in it.

 

[Homburg]

Religion, broadly explained, is comprised of the stories with which humans explain the unknown to themselves.

We do not know how this reality was created. For some, it was god.

We do not know what happens to the conscious "I" in each of us after death. For some, it is heaven, hell, or some other afterlife.

At one time, we did not understand the scientific principles behind things such as fire, lightning, etc. For some, the force behind those natural processes was god/s.

There is no fear greater than the fear of the unknown. Religion is how some people try to dispel those fears. So, yeah, religion, at its' core, is all about fear more often than not.

 

[satindesire]

Or hope. Not all people say they're a Christian because they're afraid of what happens to them if they don't. Some people genuinely love God and love Jesus and hope for an afterlife in heaven, rather than fear punishment or abandonment.

In my eyes, those are the real Christians, people who aren't bowing to terror to SAY but not genuinely believe, in a faith.

 

[BiBunny]

Religion, broadly explained, is comprised of the stories with which humans explain the unknown to themselves.

We do not know how this reality was created. For some, it was god.

We do not know what happens to the conscious "I" in each of us after death. For some, it is heaven, hell, or some other afterlife.

At one time, we did not understand the scientific principles behind things such as fire, lightning, etc. For some, the force behind those natural processes was god/s.

There is no fear greater than the fear of the unknown. Religion is how some people try to dispel those fears. So, yeah, religion, at its' core, is all about fear more often than not.

I'm far, far away from the church, and I have seen it for exactly what it is for years. But still, somewhere in the back of my mind, I occasionally am seized with a fear that maybe those bastards are right after all. Maybe I will go to hell for the things I've done.

Even though it's been years since I stopped believing in the hatred they spew, I still haven't completely escaped the brainwashing. I don't know how to explain it.

 

[JMohegan]

It's partly that, yes.

It's also partly a matter of social class, ostracism if you don't toe the party line, and important church people lining their pockets at the expense of the working class people who buy into the party line, lock, stock, and barrel. The Southern Baptist Church is very much centered around fear as a way to both win new converts and keep old ones. I know; I grew up in it.

Ughh.

I wonder how long it will be before an openly agnostic person is elected POTUS.

One of the most despicable notions perpetuated by organized religion is the notion that non-believers have no morals or values. It's often more than a 'you're going to hell' thing. It's a 'you couldn't possibly be an ethical person' thing. More subtly expressed in the north, perhaps, but still present.

 

[Keroin]

I'm far, far away from the church, and I have seen it for exactly what it is for years. But still, somewhere in the back of my mind, I occasionally am seized with a fear that maybe those bastards are right after all. Maybe I will go to hell for the things I've done.

Even though it's been years since I stopped believing in the hatred they spew, I still haven't completely escaped the brainwashing. I don't know how to explain it.

Hey, it's powerful stuff. I was raised without any religion and even I have had, (fleeting), moments in my younger life where I've thought, 'Hm, what if they're right?' That's the fear part. I mean, if it were a matter of belief = reward and non-belief = nothing, then I doubt I would have had those thoughts. It's that whole eternal suffering thing that gives us pause.

Anyway, I grew out of it. Haven't had one of those "What if" moments in over a decade.

And if there is actually a hell, you will find me jetskiing the lava flows, baby!

 

[BiBunny]

Hey, it's powerful stuff. I was raised without any religion and even I have had, fleeting, moments in my younger life where I've thought, 'Hm, what if they're right?' That's the fear part. I mean, if it were a matter of belief = reward and non-belief = nothing, then I doubt I would have had those thoughts. It's that whole eternal suffering thing that gives us pause.

Anyway, I grew out of it. Haven't had one of those "What if" moments in over a decade.

And if there is actually a hell, you will find me jetskiing the lava flows, baby!

That's pretty much what I tell myself when it happens. At least if I'm going to hell, I'll be in good company, LOL.

ETA: I'm actually not agnostic or an atheist. But I'm also not really religious at all. My spirituality would be better described as "eclectic."

 

[Keroin]

Ughh.

I wonder how long it will be before an openly agnostic person is elected POTUS.

*Does not hold breath*

 

[WriterDom]

I'm far, far away from the church, and I have seen it for exactly what it is for years. But still, somewhere in the back of my mind, I occasionally am seized with a fear that maybe those bastards are right after all. Maybe I will go to hell for the things I've done.

Even though it's been years since I stopped believing in the hatred they spew, I still haven't completely escaped the brainwashing. I don't know how to explain it.

I'm so glad that when I was forced to go to church as a child it wasn't Baptist. The only time I heard the word hell was in the Apostles's creed. I've heard a lot of these people say they were convinced they were going to hell when they did get out of their parents grasp and quit going for good.

But it seemed like all the Baptist girls I knew drank, smoked pot, and had sex on Saturday night then showed up for church on Sunday.

 

[BiBunny]

I'm so glad that when I was forced to go to church as a child it wasn't Baptist. The only time I heard the word hell was in the Apostles's creed. I've heard a lot of these people say they were convinced they were going to hell when they did get out of their parents grasp and quit going for good.

But it seemed like all the Baptist girls I knew drank, smoked pot, and had sex on Saturday night then showed up for church on Sunday.

Yep, it's ok as long as you pay your tithe to the preacher and the deacons--I mean, the Lord--every Sunday.

 

[Keroin]

I'm so glad that when I was forced to go to church as a child it wasn't Baptist. The only time I heard the word hell was in the Apostles's creed. I've heard a lot of these people say they were convinced they were going to hell when they did get out of their parents grasp and quit going for good.

But it seemed like all the Baptist girls I knew drank, smoked pot, and had sex on Saturday night then showed up for church on Sunday.

Actually, some of the worst horror stories I've heard are from my friends who were raised Catholic, particularly around their first confession. They were terrified, convinced that God was going to look into their soul and see all of their evil thoughts and send them straight to hell. One of my girlfriends said she actually wet herself while waiting in line for her turn. I think she was eleven years old at the time. She also said that even after leaving the church she wasn't able to orgasm until her early thirties because she had so much left over guilt about enjoying sex.

 

[intothewoods]

I am more or less agnostic, but I know plenty of religious people that aren't motivated by fear. Not everyone is a caricature. I've seen and known plenty who are, of course, but I don't think it's accurate to paint everyone with that broad brushstroke.

At my synagogue, faith is intertwined with tikkun olam - healing the world. Healing each other. Connecting with each other. Hope isn't a bad word to describe it, but I think in my corner of the world it's more like God is the conduit for all of these different things - our acts, our community, how we treat each other. The stories from the torah have always been used more as a metaphors. Of course, I have always attended reform/reconstructionist shuls. Women can be rabbis. Gay folks are welcome. Yada yada.

Now, that's (reform/recon) Judaism, but I know there are Christians out there that aren't so hyper-focused on sin.

I just watched Religulous the other night and I'm not saying the lefty version of religion makes it all better. There are still legitimate beefs to be had, but I just wanted to point out that not every religious person is motivated by fear.

 

[Etoile]

Senator Kent Conrad of North Dakota is openly Unitarian Universalist. I think that's the closest the US has come, on a federal level.

 

[Netzach]

The problem with that is the bible openly denounces gays as sinners. Denominations like the Baptists or any other in that vein and there are many, believe in a literal translation of the bible and nothing is going to change their mind. And yes I know that the bible was used to justify both slavery and segregation, but that was more of a case of people grasping at straws and not biblical.

There are other churches who are more liberal in their thinking but the cater more to the upper middle class. In small Southern towns anyway. You might have one Episcopal, one or two Methodists, and one Presbyterian in county and literally four pages of Baptists or god help us, denominations more conservative then Baptists in the phone book.

I think most would be more concerned about your soul rather than your judgement of them.

Personally, I think one has to right to see homosexuality as a choice rather than being born that way. Not that I agree with it but people have the right to believe what they believe. I would caution anyone in a government school from making such a statement like this girl found out

http://abcnews.go.com/US/georgia-student-sues-university-lgbt-sensitivity-training/story?id=11261490

And if you ever want to be Miss America you better embrace gay marriage.

If you want to go into counseling people you have to conform to professional standards. This may mean shutting the fuck up about your personal belief system and doing your JOB. You are being paid to help people based on commonly held professional norms, not save their souls or hold court on what you think their decisions are supposed to be. If you're an MD deciding not to give CT scans but do old fashioned exploratory surgery because you are worried about radiation you will be hearing about it. If your belief system prevents you from doing your JOB whether driving bus with a gay ad on the side, working saturday, selling booze or helping fags be well adjusted fags, then DO ANOTHER JOB. Religious freedom is not the freedom to be paid to be religious.

If she wants to help people and she can't let go of Leviticus (whatever, I love how one hangup from St. Paul and a chunk of the laws Jesus supposedly supercedes coutneracts every other thing in the NT to these people ) then enroll in a divinity program and be a minister. She can counsel all day long and never have to budge an inch. If she's going to be doing clinical work, then she better the fuck have to conform to standards of care.

If you want to be Miss America you should know how to deflect a question "above your pay grade" as it were. That was what she failed to do, she actually thought we care what she thinks.

 

[Netzach]

I am more or less agnostic, but I know plenty of religious people that aren't motivated by fear. Not everyone is a caricature. I've seen and known plenty who are, of course, but I don't think it's accurate to paint everyone with that broad brushstroke.

At my synagogue, faith is intertwined with tikkun olam - healing the world. Healing each other. Connecting with each other. Hope isn't a bad word to describe it, but I think in my corner of the world it's more like God is the conduit for all of these different things - our acts, our community, how we treat each other. The stories from the torah have always been used more as a metaphors. Of course, I have always attended reform/reconstructionist shuls. Women can be rabbis. Gay folks are welcome. Yada yada.

Now, that's (reform/recon) Judaism, but I know there are Christians out there that aren't so hyper-focused on sin.

I just watched Religulous the other night and I'm not saying the lefty version of religion makes it all better. There are still legitimate beefs to be had, but I just wanted to point out that not every religious person is motivated by fear.

If someone can find me a synagogue that is willing to call apartheid apartheid, I'm in. I can't. So it's all very quaint to me, but I consider my Judaism just that - a philosophy. By which we should know better but don't.

One thing I find tolerable about this philosophy is that most of us are VERY comfortable with a metaphoric reading of the Bible, even the very orthodox among us. I had a client who was an Orthodox Rabbi (oy) and he actually called some of the radicalization of Haredi in Israel (stoning cars, beating up women in pants) "Christianization" - as though fundamentalism was an outside influence.

The irony, is that some of the strongest peace proponents are diaspora Haredi who think Zionism is a kind of blasphemy (we'll get the temple rebuilt when G-d wants us to, not because we're swinging dick in the land of milk and honey)

I don't object to the idea of sin in Christianity, I think we're terribly flawed beings. I think Jesus was simply brilliant - the first Reform Jew, I don't necessarily have a problem with him, but I do think he spoke in parables a lot more than a lot of people think, and I think it's a shame that his bio came out 100 years after he died, as it makes it unreliable.

I worry about these flaws and decisions on my late nights too. I dislike a worldview in which the good get goodies the baddies get spanked - because the evidence around me every day is quite inconsistent with this, and I find it intolerably childish. I heard Bishop Spong calling it "a dependent child relationship" on the radio, and that resonated in me. I'm not good so that I get stuff, I'm good when I'm good because it's the right way to be. I fail at it miserably at times, and I'm going to die like everyone else someday.

I don't assume that the good things in my life are reward, they could be the prelude to a very harsh reminder that I don't matter that much in the scheme of the universe.

 

[bridgeburner]

Without the concept of "sin," there is a hell of a lot less kink.