What is feminism?

[Seurat]

If she wants to help people and she can't let go of Leviticus (whatever, I love how one hangup from St. Paul and a chunk of the laws Jesus supposedly supercedes coutneracts every other thing in the NT to these people ) then enroll in a divinity program and be a minister. She can counsel all day long and never have to budge an inch. If she's going to be doing clinical work, then she better the fuck have to conform to standards of care.

My favorite response to these people (and I worked with one for years) was to quote from the (in)famous supposed letter to "Doctor" Laura, after she was on a rant bashing gays and quoted that passage from Leviticus.

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Best part? A friend of mine used as an example in his church's newsletter to show how the people in his church need to be a little more pliable when it comes to the interpreting the written word of God.

 

[intothewoods]

If someone can find me a synagogue that is willing to call apartheid apartheid, I'm in. I can't. So it's all very quaint to me, but I consider my Judaism just that - a philosophy. By which we should know better but don't.

Er, I'm not entirely sure what you're referring to exactly (re: the apartheid). I can think of a few things that might fit...can you clarify?

One thing I find tolerable about this philosophy is that most of us are VERY comfortable with a metaphoric reading of the Bible, even the very orthodox among us. I had a client who was an Orthodox Rabbi (oy) and he actually called some of the radicalization of Haredi in Israel (stoning cars, beating up women in pants) "Christianization" - as though fundamentalism was an outside influence.

The irony, is that some of the strongest peace proponents are diaspora Haredi who think Zionism is a kind of blasphemy (we'll get the temple rebuilt when G-d wants us to, not because we're swinging dick in the land of milk and honey)

I don't object to the idea of sin in Christianity, I think we're terribly flawed beings. I think Jesus was simply brilliant - the first Reform Jew, I don't necessarily have a problem with him, but I do think he spoke in parables a lot more than a lot of people think, and I think it's a shame that his bio came out 100 years after he died, as it makes it unreliable.

I worry about these flaws and decisions on my late nights too. I dislike a worldview in which the good get goodies the baddies get spanked - because the evidence around me every day is quite inconsistent with this, and I find it intolerably childish. I heard Bishop Spong calling it "a dependent child relationship" on the radio, and that resonated in me. I'm not good so that I get stuff, I'm good when I'm good because it's the right way to be. I fail at it miserably at times, and I'm going to die like everyone else someday.

I don't assume that the good things in my life are reward, they could be the prelude to a very harsh reminder that I don't matter that much in the scheme of the universe.

In my opinion, there's no good answer found in religion to the question of why bad things happen to good people. I never read Harold Kushner (and a few people recently encouraged me to - we'll see), but someone told me there was some shit about free-floating bad wuju floating around before God made the earth. Or something. Or maybe that was another book. Either way, okay whatever. Anyway. I also see Judaism as just one philosophy. It's not the only one I know. Some aspects appeal to me and some don't. Probably many aspects appeal to me - but the whole thing was taught to me with lefty spin. I never had the experience of feeling like I couldn't disagree or that I had to be a true believer either.

To the extent that I have faith or spirituality, it's probably some weird woowoo mother earth thing, as much as I roll my eyes at those types. But I don't think anyone has the answers. There are no answers.

Wait, hold the phone - an orthodox rabbi? Were you like - jackpot, this is going to be a trip and half!?

Bill Maher interviewed one of the orthos who are philosphically against the state of Israel. I've been aware of the philosophy for some time, but this guy was one of the ones who went to that conference or summit or whatever with Ahmadinejad. I didn't really get it, but the guy was relentless in debating Maher and Maher eventually gave up.

Oh, and I don't have a problem with Jesus either.

 

[Homburg]

I'm far, far away from the church, and I have seen it for exactly what it is for years. But still, somewhere in the back of my mind, I occasionally am seized with a fear that maybe those bastards are right after all. Maybe I will go to hell for the things I've done.

Even though it's been years since I stopped believing in the hatred they spew, I still haven't completely escaped the brainwashing. I don't know how to explain it.

No need to explain it. It was how you were raised. You can't run fast enough to outrun your childhood. All you can do is try to deal with it as best you can.

I can remember being five years old, sitting in vacation bible school and thinking to myself that the whole religion deal was completely silly. It was a paradigm shift for me, on the level that most kids experience when they find out that santa isn't real. It was that first moment when I realised that adults would lie to me.

That said, there have been many times in my life when I have envied religious people. Prayer is apparently enormously comforting. When a nonbeliever is confronted with a completely intolerable situation, there is no god to call out to for succor.

--

Or hope. Not all people say they're a Christian because they're afraid of what happens to them if they don't. Some people genuinely love God and love Jesus and hope for an afterlife in heaven, rather than fear punishment or abandonment.

In my eyes, those are the real Christians, people who aren't bowing to terror to SAY but not genuinely believe, in a faith.

Eh, I'm not speaking to the motivations of believers. Believers believe for whatever reason they believe for. I'm talking about the underpinnings of religion and myth in general. And, to further clarify, it has nothing specific to do with christianity, judaism, etc. Religion, in general, is based on trying to explain away unexplainable fears. For many, that provides the hope that you are speaking of.

 

[Homburg]

Bill Maher interviewed one of the orthos who are philosphically against the state of Israel. I've been aware of the philosophy for some time, but this guy was one of the ones who went to that conference or summit or whatever with Ahmadinejad. I didn't really get it, but the guy was relentless in debating Maher and Maher eventually gave up.

Every rabbi that I've ever met was VERY skilled in argumentative discourse. And by that I mean ability to argue/debate a point well, not being argumentative.

 

[intothewoods]

Every rabbi that I've ever met was VERY skilled in argumentative discourse. And by that I mean ability to argue/debate a point well, not being argumentative.

I know, that's why it was hilarious.

 

[Tabea]

A similar problem exists for abused women, all over the United States.

We were discussing if it is always possible to escape a religion.
It is also not quite the same for other women. Muslim families are often very large and work together in punishing wayward women. They can also get help from other members of their communities. That makes it much harder for those girls and women to hide.

What is the response of German authorities? Are the murderers, and their accomplices, actively pursued and brought to justice?

Yes, of course, the German state prosecutes murderers.
But that just turns them into heroes in their circle. There also seem to be cases where families have chosen the youngest boy to commit the crime because youths face a shorter prison sentence.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this point.

You can leave an organization, or stay and work to change it. But if you give your allegiance to an organization and passively accept the wrong within it, then you share culpability for that wrong, in my view.

We are not in complete disagreement.

I just try not to judge that fast. I believe you always need to look at the individual case. How wrong is the wrong? Does the person realize it is wrong? Is the organisation more good than wrong? Is the person realistically able to affect a change of the organisation? Is it reaonable to expect the person to do something? ... It is also not possible to fight for every good cause.

 

[Netzach]

Er, I'm not entirely sure what you're referring to exactly (re: the apartheid). I can think of a few things that might fit...can you clarify?

Oh you know. Social justice for everybody! Unless you're a non-Jew in Israel. I've yet to find a lefty temple willing to self-critique at all on this.

Or just one of those *Mizrahim, they act so....Arab! Likewise the religious requirement that all of Jewry be treated the same is assumed to be reality wishfully rather than aggressively pursued reality.

(*Mizrahim are an underclass in Israel, underfunded, victims of a huge education gap culturally "arabized" or "persianized", and they're Jews who lived in the region quite peacefully in Iran, Yemen, geographic Israel, Syria - all over - until the country was founded. )

 

[intothewoods]

Oh you know. Social justice for everybody! Unless you're a non-Jew in Israel. I've yet to find a lefty temple willing to self-critique at all on this.

Or just one of those *Mizrahim, they act so....Arab! Likewise the religious requirement that all of Jewry be treated the same is assumed to be reality wishfully rather than aggressively pursued reality.

(*Mizrahim are an underclass in Israel, underfunded, victims of a huge education gap culturally "arabized" or "persianized", and they're Jews who lived in the region quite peacefully in Iran, Yemen, geographic Israel, Syria - all over - until the country was founded. )

My guess was that or you were referring to the way women have been/are viewed and treated. Are you familiar with Michael Lerner? You must be. SF would be a bit of a commute for you though. The one I attend now is absolutely critical of Israel, though there are some hawkish types who attend. I don't know if you've tried a reconstructionist synagogue or a group that is lay led - they would be the most likely to have voices that are critical of Israel. I'm not sure what is in your area. And those choices might be unappealing for other reasons.

There is some really ugly racism in Israel. And as to the government, I think more American Jews than ever have decided enough is enough, and have shifted away from a common attitude of, well, I'm not there, they know best, etc. Of course, then you have the ADL's recent position on the mosque near ground zero.

 

[Homburg]

I know, that's why it was hilarious.

I was saying that in shock. I can't imagine someone like Maher picking a fight with a rabbi on his own show. That's a recipe for a beating.

I wonder if it is on youtube or something.

--

There is some really ugly racism in Israel.

Years ago, I used to correspond with a guy what was an intel officer in the Canadian Air Force, and he happened to be Jewish. This guy was fascinating, and had been all over the world in his job. At one point, he was seconded to the IDF as some form of liaison, and couldn't really communicate. When he came back, I asked him how it went.

He said that the IDF officers that he dealt with were some of the most blatantly and hatefully racist people he'd ever met, and that the Arab officers that he was with in places like Jordan were some of the most accommodating. The fact that he was Jewish was known, but was never an issue with the Arabs, but it constantly came up in Israel. He was a little shocked by it, and it modified his attitude towards Israel. Still very pro-Israel, but not quite so unquestioningly.

That said, it has to be nigh impossible to live in that environment and not learn to hate. It doesn't make the hate and racism less reprehensible, but it is more comprehensible.

 

[intothewoods]

I was saying that in shock. I can't imagine someone like Maher picking a fight with a rabbi on his own show. That's a recipe for a beating.

I wonder if it is on youtube or something.

--

It was in Religulous. It's an entertaining movie, but would have been better as an HBO special. The tone is just like Politically Incorrect and it's too heavy-handed for a documentary. Anyway, Bill Maher still cracks me up. I think he is nuts on some things, but he's fucking funny. I wouldn't say the rabbi outsmarted him exactly. He just wouldn't shut up. This was after playing multiple interviews with the Jesus and tourists at this weird Holy Land theme park who were all left sort of dumbfounded by Bill Maher zingers.

Years ago, I used to correspond with a guy what was an intel officer in the Canadian Air Force, and he happened to be Jewish. This guy was fascinating, and had been all over the world in his job. At one point, he was seconded to the IDF as some form of liaison, and couldn't really communicate. When he came back, I asked him how it went.

He said that the IDF officers that he dealt with were some of the most blatantly and hatefully racist people he'd ever met, and that the Arab officers that he was with in places like Jordan were some of the most accommodating. The fact that he was Jewish was known, but was never an issue with the Arabs, but it constantly came up in Israel. He was a little shocked by it, and it modified his attitude towards Israel. Still very pro-Israel, but not quite so unquestioningly.

That said, it has to be nigh impossible to live in that environment and not learn to hate. It doesn't make the hate and racism less reprehensible, but it is more comprehensible.

Not all Israelis feel this way, but many do.

 

[WriterDom]

If you want to go into counseling people you have to conform to professional standards. This may mean shutting the fuck up about your personal belief system and doing your JOB. You are being paid to help people based on commonly held professional norms, not save their souls or hold court on what you think their decisions are supposed to be. If you're an MD deciding not to give CT scans but do old fashioned exploratory surgery because you are worried about radiation you will be hearing about it. If your belief system prevents you from doing your JOB whether driving bus with a gay ad on the side, working saturday, selling booze or helping fags be well adjusted fags, then DO ANOTHER JOB. Religious freedom is not the freedom to be paid to be religious.

.

So if a counseling student in Iran doesn't believe in stoning homosexual men she should be kicked out Tehran Poly Tech for her personal beliefs? Because stoning would be their commonly held professional norm. In fact, they've stoned many more homosexuals than we have murderers in the last 40 years. 8000 or so. No wonder President Acnejackoffnejad says they don't have a homosexual problem in Iran.

 

[Stella_Omega]

So if a counseling student in Iran doesn't believe in stoning homosexual men she should be kicked out Tehran Poly Tech for her personal beliefs? Because stoning would be their commonly held religious/legal norm. In fact, they've stoned many more homosexuals than we have murderers in the last 40 years. 8000 or so. No wonder President Acnejackoffnejad says they don't have a homosexual problem in Iran.

Hmm. Fixing that for you deprived you of whatever your point had been. Sorry!

 

[intothewoods]

She's free to believe whatever she wants, but homosexuality is no longer viewed as an illness by the psychiatric profession in this country. Her religious views are just plain irrelevant.

 

[Keroin]

It was in Religulous. It's an entertaining movie, but would have been better as an HBO special. The tone is just like Politically Incorrect and it's too heavy-handed for a documentary. Anyway, Bill Maher still cracks me up. I think he is nuts on some things, but he's fucking funny. I wouldn't say the rabbi outsmarted him exactly. He just wouldn't shut up. This was after playing multiple interviews with the Jesus and tourists at this weird Holy Land theme park who were all left sort of dumbfounded by Bill Maher zingers.

I saw that movie. I thought the rabi was a freak. Hm.

Loved the marijuana religion. "Dude, your hair's on fire." LOL.

 

[satindesire]

Every rabbi that I've ever met was VERY skilled in argumentative discourse. And by that I mean ability to argue/debate a point well, not being argumentative.

I've never met a Rabbi or a Catholic Priest before.

 

[Seurat]

I've never met a Rabbi or a Catholic Priest before.

Really? I can't speak for Rabbis (never met one), but I have known some very smart and personable priests over the years.

I had one Barnabite Priest (one of the Catholic sects) completely undo my faith in the Roman Catholic church one day with just a few sentences. I never looked back, and never had the chance to thank him.

 

[infinity706]

I've never met a rabbi or a Catholic priest, either. I've only met Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, and Episcopalian ministers. Yeah, I was raised as a Christian and I even got baptised. I just kind of rebelled a tiny, little bit. Those fundamentalist, Baptists are crazy though. So, who wants to tell me I can't listen to any music other than gospel, I can't have non Christian friends, I can't have sex with guys or anyone I'm not married to, homosexuality should be a capitol crime, I have to get married, have kids, and treat my wife as a submissive, I have to make sure she dresses modestly in ankle length dresses 24/7, I have to waste paper on stupid Bible papers to leave everywhere, that noone's going to even look at, I have to give 10% of everything I make to the church, I can't vote for anyone that supports anything the church doesn't like... I don't mind Christians, but I wasn't about to continue associating with that kind of stupid shit.

 

[richard_daily]

Feminism is the outrageous concept that women are equal to men.

It really pisses off a lot of people, especially those who want to subvert others for their own means.... and not in a kinky, fun way.

 

[YourCaptor]

Last quarter I had a preaching atheist professor. It was sweet, this guy, good guy, was talking about his missions, and the professor just started point out all the short comings of religion. That was neat, up until then the only "atheists" I had met were the, I have no opinion weirdos.

 

[intothewoods]

I saw that movie. I thought the rabi was a freak. Hm.

Loved the marijuana religion. "Dude, your hair's on fire." LOL.

I just remember "let me finish" about 400 times. I mean, there wasn't enough there for me to get why he was ok with Ahmadinijad, unless it's just a political thing to ally with anyone anti-Israel.

As a Jew, I was more turned off by the people making those shabbat-approved devices. Why bother at that point? *shrug*

ETA: Of course, that's a question all observant Jews kinda face. We just draw the lines at different places.

 

[satindesire]

Really? I can't speak for Rabbis (never met one), but I have known some very smart and personable priests over the years.

I had one Barnabite Priest (one of the Catholic sects) completely undo my faith in the Roman Catholic church one day with just a few sentences. I never looked back, and never had the chance to thank him.

There aren't any Jewish Churches...what are they called? Synagogues? in this town. And only one Catholic Church, which I've never been to.

I want to go to Sunday Mass! I've seen it on TV and it looks so different from the sunday church that I'm used to.

 

[WriterDom]

There aren't any Jewish Churches...what are they called? Synagogues? in this town. And only one Catholic Church, which I've never been to.

.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SavannahGeorgiaTempleMickveIsrael_2006.jpg

Savannah has the third oldest Synagogue in the US. Really beautiful. Now the building is only 130 years old or so but the Jews have been there since 1733.

 

[satindesire]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SavannahGeorgiaTempleMickveIsrael_2006.jpg

Savannah has the third oldest Synagogue in the US. Really beautiful. Now the building is only 130 years old or so but the Jews have been there since 1733.

WOW! HOLY COW!!!

That is FREAKING AMAZING!

Man, I gotta go there and see that in person!

Thank you so much for sharing that awesome picture!

 

[Homburg]

I've never met a Rabbi or a Catholic Priest before.

Met both, as well as all sorts of protestant christian preachers/pastors/etc, an anglican or two, various buddhist priests and lay people, a hare krisna or two, yogis, and a pantload of various types of pagans.

The coolest/most-interesting/etc by far was the former hare krisna turned buddhist layman that taught religious studies at my university. The guy went to Harvard Seminary as a Jew in the 60's, found drugs, then krisna, then the maharashi yogi, then bahai (really interesting people), a flirtation with sufiism and jainism, then buddhism, and somehow had time to earn his doctorate. So he was this old ex-hippy with the most incredible stories about all the religions he'd flowed through over the course of decades.

And, after he'd torn me up during my thesis defense, chased me down, grabbed me by the shoulders, and yelled at me "YOU MUST GO TO GRAD SCHOOL!" Guy was a trip

 

[satindesire]

Met both, as well as all sorts of protestant christian preachers/pastors/etc, an anglican or two, various buddhist priests and lay people, a hare krisna or two, yogis, and a pantload of various types of pagans.

The coolest/most-interesting/etc by far was the former hare krisna turned buddhist layman that taught religious studies at my university. The guy went to Harvard Seminary as a Jew in the 60's, found drugs, then krisna, then the maharashi yogi, then bahai (really interesting people), a flirtation with sufiism and jainism, then buddhism, and somehow had time to earn his doctorate. So he was this old ex-hippy with the most incredible stories about all the religions he'd flowed through over the course of decades.

And, after he'd torn me up during my thesis defense, chased me down, grabbed me by the shoulders, and yelled at me "YOU MUST GO TO GRAD SCHOOL!" Guy was a trip

Haha! What a cool guy!