What is feminism?

[Homburg]

Ahem, just needed to point out that the baddest muthafuckas this side of the Vikings were technically Buddhists all.

That is painting with a broad brush. Genghis Khan (however you want to spell it) was tolerant of pretty much all religions, but was a shamanist himself. Historically, so were the majority of the Mongols of the time.

Kublai Khan, being the other really big name, converted to buddhism, but it was, if I remember correctly, during a time when the Mongol royals were buddhists but the people were not. By the time that buddhism became the prominent faith amongst the Mongols as a whole, they were, again as I recall, on the decline.

In short, their badass phases were likely powered by a melange of faiths, with old Mongolian shamanism/animism being the large chunk.

 

[Netzach]

That is painting with a broad brush. Genghis Khan (however you want to spell it) was tolerant of pretty much all religions, but was a shamanist himself. Historically, so were the majority of the Mongols of the time.

Kublai Khan, being the other really big name, converted to buddhism, but it was, if I remember correctly, during a time when the Mongol royals were buddhists but the people were not. By the time that buddhism became the prominent faith amongst the Mongols as a whole, they were, again as I recall, on the decline.

In short, their badass phases were likely powered by a melange of faiths, with old Mongolian shamanism/animism being the large chunk.

My bad, I meant the zen-fueled badassery of the Samurai.

 

[Homburg]

My bad, I meant the zen-fueled badassery of the Samurai.

Oh, gotcha. Well, in that case you have even more complexity. Throughout the period where the samurai were being badasses, they had a really interesting dual faith. Shinto and buddhism worked side by side, in a very odd marriage. Shinto priests, for example, don't handle birth or death rites, but buddhists do. And, in similar vein, buddhism doesn't handle violence, but shinto does. And then you add in bushido, and it gets even more complicated.

Shinto is the older partner in this pair, and more influential at least in the early periods. And it sat better with the bushido code and the samurai mentality. Buddhism came in more with the minimalism from Zen (through Ch'an) buddhism. It is a pretty different animal than mahayana buddhism and other more properly Hindu/Tibetan styles.

As time went on, the buddhism became more and more common, and more integrated into the bushido mindset. The trend became stronger, and, frankly, Zen diverged more and more from it's Hindu roots. The Book of Five Rings is very strongly based in buddhist thought, but incredibly divergent from the teachings of the actual Buddha.

To get very basic, buddhist pilgrims carried buddhism into Tibet and China, producing their styles. Chinese buddhist applied their unique aesthetic to buddhism producing Ch'an style buddhism. It was influenced by the gorgeous simplicity of Chinese thought and artwork at the time and radically different from the Hindu buddhist presentation. Then Chinese pilgrims and merchants and such brought Ch'an to Japan where it became Zen. The Japanese aesthetic kicked in and simplified it even more. The minimalist approach was refined even more, and many of the more hindu religious style got stripped away leaving less of a faith and more of a philosophy.

Then the samurai got a hold of it. Any subculture that can turn the brewing of tea into a martial ritual is going to do things with a philosophy. Martial things. Where one man sees fireworks, another sees explosives. The samurai took the zen mind and found mu.

Aaaand I'm rambling. Sorry. The short version is that the combination of shinto and buddhism meant a different take on violence as a problem solver. And the conceptual drift that occurred in the long migration of buddhism from India all the way to Japan has a huge effect on the actual tenets of the faith/philosophy.

Still, it is a good example both of the combination of buddhism and violence, and conceptual and cultural drift.

 

[Seurat]

Oh, gotcha. Well, in that case you have even more complexity. Throughout the period where the samurai were being badasses, they had a really interesting dual faith. Shinto and buddhism worked side by side, in a very odd marriage. Shinto priests, for example, don't handle birth or death rites, but buddhists do. And, in similar vein, buddhism doesn't handle violence, but shinto does. And then you add in bushido, and it gets even more complicated.

Shinto is the older partner in this pair, and more influential at least in the early periods. And it sat better with the bushido code and the samurai mentality. Buddhism came in more with the minimalism from Zen (through Ch'an) buddhism. It is a pretty different animal than mahayana buddhism and other more properly Hindu/Tibetan styles.

As time went on, the buddhism became more and more common, and more integrated into the bushido mindset. The trend became stronger, and, frankly, Zen diverged more and more from it's Hindu roots. The Book of Five Rings is very strongly based in buddhist thought, but incredibly divergent from the teachings of the actual Buddha.

To get very basic, buddhist pilgrims carried buddhism into Tibet and China, producing their styles. Chinese buddhist applied their unique aesthetic to buddhism producing Ch'an style buddhism. It was influenced by the gorgeous simplicity of Chinese thought and artwork at the time and radically different from the Hindu buddhist presentation. Then Chinese pilgrims and merchants and such brought Ch'an to Japan where it became Zen. The Japanese aesthetic kicked in and simplified it even more. The minimalist approach was refined even more, and many of the more hindu religious style got stripped away leaving less of a faith and more of a philosophy.

Then the samurai got a hold of it. Any subculture that can turn the brewing of tea into a martial ritual is going to do things with a philosophy. Martial things. Where one man sees fireworks, another sees explosives. The samurai took the zen mind and found mu.

Aaaand I'm rambling. Sorry. The short version is that the combination of shinto and buddhism meant a different take on violence as a problem solver. And the conceptual drift that occurred in the long migration of buddhism from India all the way to Japan has a huge effect on the actual tenets of the faith/philosophy.

Still, it is a good example both of the combination of buddhism and violence, and conceptual and cultural drift.

You know too much. I have now met a buddha on the road. What happens next is inevitable.

 

[Homburg]

You know too much. I have now met a buddha on the road. What happens next is inevitable.

Fortunately, not being the buddha, I will fight back.

Bring it, fucker.

 

[Seurat]

Fortunately, not being the buddha, I will fight back.

Bring it, fucker.

Zazen, it is! And, after ten minutes of excruciating pain, I will dig out my Linji.

 

[Homburg]

Zazen, it is! And, after ten minutes of excruciating pain, I will dig out my Linji.

Heh. I heartily suggest "Gateless Gate" by Kuon Yamada, but some translations are less wonderful than others. I Basho. There is also a particularly well-known Chinese layman that I enjoy greatly. Can't remember his name.

 

[Seurat]

Heh. I heartily suggest "Gateless Gate" by Kuon Yamada, but some translations are less wonderful than others. I Basho. There is also a particularly well-known Chinese layman that I enjoy greatly. Can't remember his name.

Thanks for the recommendations; I see a bookstore trip is needed. I've been thumbing through Maura Soshin O'Halloran's "Pure Heart Enlightened Mind" and Eva Wongs' "Seven Taoist Masters", but my favorite light reading (and best for hospital work) is Soko Morinaga's "Novice to Master: an ongoing lesson in the extent of my own stupidity". Not really deep reading, but a good set of stories describing a student's evolution to master in post WWII Japan.

 

[Homburg]

Thanks for the recommendations; I see a bookstore trip is needed. I've been thumbing through Maura Soshin O'Halloran's "Pure Heart Enlightened Mind" and Eva Wongs' "Seven Taoist Masters", but my favorite light reading (and best for hospital work) is Soko Morinaga's "Novice to Master: an ongoing lesson in the extent of my own stupidity". Not really deep reading, but a good set of stories describing a student's evolution to master in post WWII Japan.

Honestly, "deep" texts on zen buddhism seem to miss the point. I would rather a koan and response format than some long-winded dissertation. It's like Bruce Lee's famous line about the finger pointing at the moon. I want to see the moon, so just point.

 

[infinity706]

I really have to wonder something. Why is it that so many women, including most hardcore feminists flatout refuse to make the first move sexually? So, what makes that any less sexist and stupid than anything else?

 

[Keroin]

I really have to wonder something. Why is it that so many women, including most hardcore feminists flatout refuse to make the first move sexually? So, what makes that any less sexist and stupid than anything else?

We are taught from an early age that "good girls" don't do that sort of thing. By the time we are adults and realize that we've been fed a load of bunk, we are now grown women with no training in that kind of rejection. I think, for most women, the idea of making an advance and being rejected is very frightening. Men, on the other hand, get lots of practice at it from an early age, so the risk does not seem so great.

Anyway, that's my theory.

 

[bridgeburner]

I really have to wonder something. Why is it that so many women, including most hardcore feminists flatout refuse to make the first move sexually? So, what makes that any less sexist and stupid than anything else?

I would agree with Keroin's response, but I also have to add that many women DO make the first move sexually and many men are just too dense to get it.

It puts me in mind of the Monty Python sketch on Sex Ed from The Meaning of Life. The instructor --- John Cleese --- asks the class how to arouse a woman and one of the eager know-it-all students shouts out "Fondle the clitoris, Sir!" and Cleese response, "What's wrong with a kiss, boy? You needn't go diving straight for the clitoris!"

What's the first step in sexual advance?

Eye contact.

If I've been making good eye contact, tilting my head to expose my neck, reaching out to give casual touches that linger I AM making a sexual advance. It generally doesn't require me grabbing a man by the dick to let him know the game is on.

Lions only hunt because gazelles don't saunter up and offer to be dinner.

 

[infinity706]

Oh, I know most women will initiate flirting. I meant the physical sex part. No matter how hot and heavy the flirting is, most women won't lay a finger on a guy.

 

[Netzach]

Oh, I know most women will initiate flirting. I meant the physical sex part. No matter how hot and heavy the flirting is, most women won't lay a finger on a guy.

Because if you do you are automatically branded as weird.

Most guys *think* they'd like this and hardly any can handle it gracefully.

 

[bridgeburner]

Oh, I know most women will initiate flirting. I meant the physical sex part. No matter how hot and heavy the flirting is, most women won't lay a finger on a guy.

I have no idea where you're drawing the line between flirting and foreplay ---- which points to what I was saying. Women are having sex with you long before you apparently realize it.

And as Netzach points out, men -- in general -- do not respond well to women who are as sexually aggressive as you seem to be implying you wish they were.



ETA - it also depends somewhat on the age of the woman

 

[Stella_Omega]

Because if you do you are automatically branded as weird.

Most guys *think* they'd like this and hardly any can handle it gracefully.

yep-- a woman who makes the first move (and preempts the guy's standard routine) risks not getting laid after all.

I have always made first moves with men, personally. More often than letting the guy do it. And for probably twenty years now, a man who comes on to me loses me-- if I don't start it, no one will. I've been branded as "wierd" for it, too. But I'm inclined to agree with that, all things considered.

 

[JMohegan]

I really have to wonder something. Why is it that so many women, including most hardcore feminists flatout refuse to make the first move sexually? So, what makes that any less sexist and stupid than anything else?

Restraint from making the first overt move would be smart, not stupid, in my case. I'm a control freak at heart, and take clues on a female's amenability to such from the very beginning.

I don't think of sexually aggressive women as weird, but for me they are definitely a poor match. I like to control the proceedings - including timing and pace.

I would agree with Keroin's response, but I also have to add that many women DO make the first move sexually and many men are just too dense to get it.

It puts me in mind of the Monty Python sketch on Sex Ed from The Meaning of Life. The instructor --- John Cleese --- asks the class how to arouse a woman and one of the eager know-it-all students shouts out "Fondle the clitoris, Sir!" and Cleese response, "What's wrong with a kiss, boy? You needn't go diving straight for the clitoris!"

What's the first step in sexual advance?

Eye contact.

If I've been making good eye contact, tilting my head to expose my neck, reaching out to give casual touches that linger I AM making a sexual advance. It generally doesn't require me grabbing a man by the dick to let him know the game is on.

Haha - true! Agreed on your definition of sexual advance.

Though I might interpret eye contact, subtle head tilting, and lingering casual touches as delightfully responsive, rather than proactive behavior. It depends. Nearly identical behavior, different women - and on some it comes off as deliberate seduction, but on others it gets translated in my brain as a submissive response to my presence. I'm not really sure how to explain this. It's an aura type of thing.

 

[Homburg]

Lions only hunt because gazelles don't saunter up and offer to be dinner.

This is an awesome line.

--

Because if you do you are automatically branded as weird.

Most guys *think* they'd like this and hardly any can handle it gracefully.

Ain't that the truth. It has happened to me a few times, and, wow, I was put off. I do not mind the woman initiating within a relationship, but when we don't know each other? No, thanks. But, honestly, that is more because it is pretty apparent at that point that we are just not likely to be compatible.

I remember one time, years back, I was working security at a nightclub and this blonde came on to me HARD. Willowy gal with a great body, but ferociously aggressive. It aggravated me. All I could think at that time was how irritating it was that this woman that I did not know was putting her hands on me without my permission (and reeking of cigarette smoke). Way across boundaries, doesn't matter how hot she might have been.


Note: I find it even more offensive when a man does this to a woman. It is a boundaries thing, and that transcends gender, but women in such a situation,... Dammit, I cannot say this in an inoffensive, non-patronising manner. Male big, female small, Homburg angry. The fact that society is presenting messages of acquiescence to women in situations likes this burns me up. You're a "bitch" if you tell the guy to fuck off, even when he rightly deserves it. Stupid fucking wrong-headed attitude.

 

[satindesire]

Note: I find it even more offensive when a man does this to a woman. It is a boundaries thing, and that transcends gender, but women in such a situation,... Dammit, I cannot say this in an inoffensive, non-patronising manner. Male big, female small, Homburg angry. The fact that society is presenting messages of acquiescence to women in situations likes this burns me up. You're a "bitch" if you tell the guy to fuck off, even when he rightly deserves it. Stupid fucking wrong-headed attitude.

I don't think your being offensive or patronizing. Humans in general have a serious size/strength difference between the sexes, it's perfectly natural to feel protective towards females.

 

[Keroin]

Ain't that the truth. It has happened to me a few times, and, wow, I was put off. I do not mind the woman initiating within a relationship, but when we don't know each other? No, thanks. But, honestly, that is more because it is pretty apparent at that point that we are just not likely to be compatible.

I remember one time, years back, I was working security at a nightclub and this blonde came on to me HARD. Willowy gal with a great body, but ferociously aggressive. It aggravated me. All I could think at that time was how irritating it was that this woman that I did not know was putting her hands on me without my permission (and reeking of cigarette smoke). Way across boundaries, doesn't matter how hot she might have been.

It doesn't even have to be as obvious as that to make a man uncomfortable.

When L was a single stunt guy and a woman would ask him what he did for a living, 90% of the time she'd go all *swoon* on him. "Wow! You're a stunt guy?? That's sooooooo cool! Squee!!"

Me? A guy would ask me what I did for a living, I'd tell him, and 90% of the time the walls would come flying up. Threat! Threat! Threat! Then he'd say something to redeem his manhood, like, "Oh yeah, my friends all tell me I should have been a stunt guy because I'm so CRAZY!" Not many could just say, "Wow, cool. I'm an accountant, I can't imagine doing a job like that." Or something along those lines, something that would have been infinitely more manly, IMO.

 

[Homburg]

I don't think your being offensive or patronizing. Humans in general have a serious size/strength difference between the sexes, it's perfectly natural to feel protective towards females.

That may be, but I sure as hell feel patronising saying that

--

It doesn't even have to be as obvious as that to make a man uncomfortable.

When L was a single stunt guy and a woman would ask him what he did for a living, 90% of the time she'd go all *swoon* on him. "Wow! You're a stunt guy?? That's sooooooo cool! Squee!!"

Me? A guy would ask me what I did for a living, I'd tell him, and 90% of the time the walls would come flying up. Threat! Threat! Threat! Then he'd say something to redeem his manhood, like, "Oh yeah, my friends all tell me I should have been a stunt guy because I'm so CRAZY!" Not many could just say, "Wow, cool. I'm an accountant, I can't imagine doing a job like that." Or something along those lines, something that would have been infinitely more manly, IMO.

See, I don't get that attatude. When you first said it, my first thought was, "Wow, that's cool!" And I think that I've said more than once that I couldn't do what you did. Well, a little bit of it maybe*

Probably comes from growing up around people that did scary, crazy shit for a living (jumping out of airplanes and getting shot at is scary/crazy). I don't feel the need to prove my manhood around people that, male or female, are more badass than me


* - Some of the things stuntpeople do are things I've either done before (stupid driving tricks, though not at professional level. Anyone can learn j-turns, bootlegger turns, drifting, and the like. I really, really wish I could've found a reasonable way to practice the PIT maneuver, dammit), or things that I have an absurd psychological want to do (jump off tall things). The vast majority of what you guys did is WAY beyond my comfort level

 

[Keroin]

See, I don't get that attatude. When you first said it, my first thought was, "Wow, that's cool!" And I think that I've said more than once that I couldn't do what you did. Well, a little bit of it maybe*

Probably comes from growing up around people that did scary, crazy shit for a living (jumping out of airplanes and getting shot at is scary/crazy). I don't feel the need to prove my manhood around people that, male or female, are more badass than me


* - Some of the things stuntpeople do are things I've either done before (stupid driving tricks, though not at professional level. Anyone can learn j-turns, bootlegger turns, drifting, and the like. I really, really wish I could've found a reasonable way to practice the PIT maneuver, dammit), or things that I have an absurd psychological want to do (jump off tall things). The vast majority of what you guys did is WAY beyond my comfort level

No, no, you've always been super cool about it. I never got the "threat" vibe from you at all. But most guys, in real life, in a "possible hook up" scenario, oh yeah. Same thing if they found out I fought/was a black belt. Then the standard come back was, (imagine a guy puffing out his chest and trying to look tough), "Yeah, I took Tae Kwon Do when I was younger, got up to orange belt before I quit because of __________(insert excuse)." LOL.

(I got to do tons of PIT practice out in Arizona. and )

 

[BiBunny]

No, no, you've always been super cool about it. I never got the "threat" vibe from you at all. But most guys, in real life, in a "possible hook up" scenario, oh yeah. Same thing if they found out I fought/was a black belt. Then the standard come back was, (imagine a guy puffing out his chest and trying to look tough), "Yeah, I took Tae Kwon Do when I was younger, got up to orange belt before I quit because of __________(insert excuse)." LOL.

(I got to do tons of PIT practice out in Arizona. and )

Dudes are SO lame about stuff like that.

 

[satindesire]

*laughs* It's just preening. Men are like peacocks.

"Please pick me to have sex with. I'm bursting with testosterone and can give you babies."

 

[Homburg]

No, no, you've always been super cool about it. I never got the "threat" vibe from you at all. But most guys, in real life, in a "possible hook up" scenario, oh yeah. Same thing if they found out I fought/was a black belt. Then the standard come back was, (imagine a guy puffing out his chest and trying to look tough), "Yeah, I took Tae Kwon Do when I was younger, got up to orange belt before I quit because of __________(insert excuse)." LOL.

(I got to do tons of PIT practice out in Arizona. and )

Yeah, I don't get that idea. When I was doing kenpo, my favourite instructor was a woman. She was older than I was and had a coupla kids, but I loved working with her. First, she was good enough to whup my ass, and second, she was aggressive as hell. Her aggression matched really well with my attitude and style, so I just flat learned well from her.

As a result, when a woman (or a man, doesn't matter) tells me they've fought or done MA, my first response is to ask what style. That's more interesting to me than puffing my chest out.

And the Arizona thing? Yeah, I'm jealous. Stabby jealous