What is feminism?

[Stella_Omega]

<snip>
I remember one time, years back, I was working security at a nightclub and this blonde came on to me HARD. Willowy gal with a great body, but ferociously aggressive. It aggravated me. All I could think at that time was how irritating it was that this woman that I did not know was putting her hands on me without my permission (and reeking of cigarette smoke). Way across boundaries, doesn't matter how hot she might have been.

Yes indeed. And you can remember one time, years back. An awful lot of women can remember the most recent time, a few nights ago. One in hundreds of such instances.

That, Infinity706, is another reason why women don't often make the first move real fast-- they don't like it when it happens to them.

 

[Keroin]

And the Arizona thing? Yeah, I'm jealous. Stabby jealous

Then I shouldn't tell you about the three car chase, incorporating PIT whilst the "bad guys" were shooting paint ball guns at my car to simulate a real attack.

No, that would be cruel.

and

 

[Homburg]

Yes indeed. And you can remember one time, years back. An awful lot of women can remember the most recent time, a few nights ago. One in hundreds of such instances.

That, Infinity706, is another reason why women don't often make the first move real fast-- they don't like it when it happens to them.

Well, it no longer happens these days because I don't put myself in those situations. And I'm old, and probably too scary for such behaviour

That said, it was a learning experience for me. While I have never been one to come on asshole-strong like that, it cemented my resolve to not be that guy.

--

Then I shouldn't tell you about the three car chase, incorporating PIT whilst the "bad guys" were shooting paint ball guns at my car to simulate a real attack.

No, that would be cruel.

and

Sadist

 

[Keroin]

Sadist

Uh oh, I've been outed.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Uh oh, I've been outed.

We had no idea!

 

[Homburg]

Uh oh, I've been outed.

We had no idea!

/random non sequitur

Years ago, a good friend of mine came up to me looking really concerned.

Him: Dude, I thought you knew! I'm so sorry, I thought I told you that I came out!

Me: You're gay? I had no idea. It's cool. *grin*

Him: I, wait, you... D'oh!

He almost broke his nose with the supersonic facepalm that followed the "d'oh".

/random non sequitur off


(Conversation has been modified to suit artistic whim and protect the identity of said friend.)

 

[JMohegan]

No, no, you've always been super cool about it. I never got the "threat" vibe from you at all. But most guys, in real life, in a "possible hook up" scenario, oh yeah. Same thing if they found out I fought/was a black belt. Then the standard come back was, (imagine a guy puffing out his chest and trying to look tough), "Yeah, I took Tae Kwon Do when I was younger, got up to orange belt before I quit because of __________(insert excuse)." LOL.

Dudes are SO lame about stuff like that.

BiBunny, aren't you the one who said she could never respect a guy unless he could fix his own truck and cut down his own tree?

Not picking on you here, but just pointing out that, while the specific instance of chestpuffing described by Keroin does sound lame, males in general face pressure to be overtly masculine (in one form or another) from females as well as each other.

Keroin, you said you'd be impressed by an accountant who admitted he could never crash cars or jump out of buildings or do whatever it is that stunt people do for a living. But since you're married to a stunt person, it seems fair to ask - have you ever dated a guy who has no traditionally male interests and/or skills?

 

[infinity706]

Because if you do you are automatically branded as weird.

Most guys *think* they'd like this and hardly any can handle it gracefully.

I have no idea where you're drawing the line between flirting and foreplay ---- which points to what I was saying. Women are having sex with you long before you apparently realize it.

And as Netzach points out, men -- in general -- do not respond well to women who are as sexually aggressive as you seem to be implying you wish they were.



ETA - it also depends somewhat on the age of the woman

What I'm implying is that quite a few women won't even make the first move when you make it explicitly clear that you're waiting for them to do it when they're ready.

I don't think your being offensive or patronizing. Humans in general have a serious size/strength difference between the sexes, it's perfectly natural to feel protective towards females.

It's not really that big of a deal unless you're talking about a physical fight or heavy labor. Otherwise, it doesn't really matter if guys are, on average, a few inches taller and have stronger muscles.

It doesn't even have to be as obvious as that to make a man uncomfortable.

When L was a single stunt guy and a woman would ask him what he did for a living, 90% of the time she'd go all *swoon* on him. "Wow! You're a stunt guy?? That's sooooooo cool! Squee!!"

Me? A guy would ask me what I did for a living, I'd tell him, and 90% of the time the walls would come flying up. Threat! Threat! Threat! Then he'd say something to redeem his manhood, like, "Oh yeah, my friends all tell me I should have been a stunt guy because I'm so CRAZY!" Not many could just say, "Wow, cool. I'm an accountant, I can't imagine doing a job like that." Or something along those lines, something that would have been infinitely more manly, IMO.

Something like that would probably interest me quite a bit. I really like understanding why men and women choose to pursue careers, dominated by the opposite sex. Oh, and being a stunt woman is all kinds of awesome.

Yes indeed. And you can remember one time, years back. An awful lot of women can remember the most recent time, a few nights ago. One in hundreds of such instances.

That, Infinity706, is another reason why women don't often make the first move real fast-- they don't like it when it happens to them.

I don't mean fast. I mean never, even over the span of years.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Dude, is it possible that those women don't want to fuck you?

But if you're talking about bed partners, have you ever asked them why they don't?

 

[Keroin]

Keroin, you said you'd be impressed by an accountant who admitted he could never crash cars or jump out of buildings or do whatever it is that stunt people do for a living. But since you're married to a stunt person, it seems fair to ask - have you ever dated a guy who has no traditionally male interests and/or skills?

Oh absolutely.

Prior to L, I was in a relationship with a fellow who was a sales rep. He was a terrific guy and I have nothing but good things to say about him. He had a degree in political science and was just generally very intelligent, witty, etc. We were together for about 3 years.

Where we were incompatible was in the travel/spontaneity department. He had not traveled much, had not a huge interest in travelling and what little he was willing to do required so much planning and preparation it was exhausting. As you can imagine, that was an issue for me.

And it wasn't L's stuntiness that attracted me to him, believe or not. There were other stunt types whose advances I had, gently, declined. No, the first time we worked together one-on-one he started talking about Baja and the fishing, and the whales, and the diving and that was it. I was hooked, so to speak.

The mutual adrenalin fascination was just an added bonus.

 

[BiBunny]

BiBunny, aren't you the one who said she could never respect a guy unless he could fix his own truck and cut down his own tree?

Not picking on you here, but just pointing out that, while the specific instance of chestpuffing described by Keroin does sound lame, males in general face pressure to be overtly masculine (in one form or another) from females as well as each other.

Keroin, you said you'd be impressed by an accountant who admitted he could never crash cars or jump out of buildings or do whatever it is that stunt people do for a living. But since you're married to a stunt person, it seems fair to ask - have you ever dated a guy who has no traditionally male interests and/or skills?

Yes. I still think it's lame.

 

[Homburg]

BiBunny, aren't you the one who said she could never respect a guy unless he could fix his own truck and cut down his own tree?

Not picking on you here, but just pointing out that, while the specific instance of chestpuffing described by Keroin does sound lame, males in general face pressure to be overtly masculine (in one form or another) from females as well as each other.

I don't see a disconnect between being competent at classically masculine things, yet not being a chest-puffing trash-talker. And, in general, it would seem to me that this is what most women want. They dig that alpha guy, but want him sensitive enough to remember to buy flowers on an anniversary. Specifically on this board, they often want said male to beat them black and blue and then cuddle afterwards.

I think the pressure to be overtly masculine comes from the male side of the gender divide. No, society at large does not come out strongly enough against the behaviour, but I don't see women trying to convince guys to be overly aggressive douchebags.

 

[BiBunny]

I don't see a disconnect between being competent at classically masculine things, yet not being a chest-puffing trash-talker. And, in general, it would seem to me that this is what most women want. They dig that alpha guy, but want him sensitive enough to remember to buy flowers on an anniversary. Specifically on this board, they often want said male to beat them black and blue and then cuddle afterwards.

I think the pressure to be overtly masculine comes from the male side of the gender divide. No, society at large does not come out strongly enough against the behaviour, but I don't see women trying to convince guys to be overly aggressive douchebags.

Truthfully, if you have to talk shit like that, then you're insecure in your abilities. And insecurity is not attractive.

 

[Homburg]

Truthfully, if you have to talk shit like that, then you're insecure in your abilities. And insecurity is not attractive.

Absolutely, and if there is one lesson that insecure men pass on to other insecure men, it's that brash behaviour like that will make them feel better about their lack of manhood. That, in my experience, is where the fallacy spreads.

 

[JMohegan]

A guy feigning martial arts toughness is symptomatic of the "shit, I might not measure up to gender-defined expectations" angst that affects so many people. It's lame because it's desperate and fake. Like a woman padding her bra.

A separate issue relates to the reality of sexual preference, and the fact that a lot of guys are just plain not aroused by women who are bigger, stronger, tougher, more badass than they are. Similarly, a lot of women are not aroused by men who are smaller, weaker, less tough.

Oh absolutely.

Prior to L, I was in a relationship with a fellow who was a sales rep. He was a terrific guy and I have nothing but good things to say about him. He had a degree in political science and was just generally very intelligent, witty, etc. We were together for about 3 years.

Where we were incompatible was in the travel/spontaneity department. He had not traveled much, had not a huge interest in travelling and what little he was willing to do required so much planning and preparation it was exhausting. As you can imagine, that was an issue for me.

Did the guy seem masculine to you? If so, in what way?

Shank once started a thread on this subject - what makes something masculine or feminine to you? It was one of his best.

 

[Keroin]

Did the guy seem masculine to you? If so, in what way?

Shank once started a thread on this subject - what makes something masculine or feminine to you? It was one of his best.

Well, he was a big, square-jawed Croatian - so he had the physical aspect going for him. He did enjoy some very typical masculine activities - we met in a martial arts class - but he was far more cerebral than physical. And he looked good in pink dress shirts, lol.

He was far more appearance conscious than I and was not ashamed to admit that he thought my career choice was "nuts", which I respected.

But still, he OOZED alpha male. Hard to explain.

I'd like to read Shanks thread. I miss him around here.

 

[JMohegan]

I don't see a disconnect between being competent at classically masculine things, yet not being a chest-puffing trash-talker. And, in general, it would seem to me that this is what most women want. They dig that alpha guy, but want him sensitive enough to remember to buy flowers on an anniversary. Specifically on this board, they often want said male to beat them black and blue and then cuddle afterwards.

I think the pressure to be overtly masculine comes from the male side of the gender divide. No, society at large does not come out strongly enough against the behaviour, but I don't see women trying to convince guys to be overly aggressive douchebags.

I guess it depends what you mean by "overtly masculine."

If most women want to fuck "that alpha guy," then there's tremendous pressure on most guys - from women - to be "alpha." Whatever that means!

 

[JMohegan]

Well, he was a big, square-jawed Croatian - so he had the physical aspect going for him. He did enjoy some very typical masculine activities - we met in a martial arts class - but he was far more cerebral than physical. And he looked good in pink dress shirts, lol.

He was far more appearance conscious than I and was not ashamed to admit that he thought my career choice was "nuts", which I respected.

But still, he OOZED alpha male. Hard to explain.

I'd like to read Shanks thread. I miss him around here.

For the record, this officially reverses your original answer to my question - have you ever dated a guy who has no traditionally male interests and/or skills?

If this guy was your idea of a 'yes', then your answer to my question is a resounding no!

(Not accusing you of changing your answer here. Obviously what I wanted to ask was just not understood.)

 

[Keroin]

For the record, this officially reverses your original answer to my question - have you ever dated a guy who has no traditionally male interests and/or skills?

If this guy was your idea of a 'yes', then your answer to my question is a resounding no!

(Not accusing you of changing your answer here. Obviously what I wanted to ask was just not understood.)

Well, that's a tough one. I mean, I'm far from your stereotypical female but I still have female traits, interests and skills, (cooking not being one of them )

So, no, I guess I haven't. But then, I don't think I've ever met a man, even among the gay men I know, that has absolutely no traditionally male interests or skills. I'd say that man would be fairly hard to find, wouldn't you?

 

[Etoile]

I'd like to read Shanks thread. I miss him around here.

Me too. I got in touch with him about a month ago and he said he'd left all this stuff behind and wouldn't be coming back. Whatever that means.

 

[JMohegan]

Well, that's a tough one. I mean, I'm far from your stereotypical female but I still have female traits, interests and skills, (cooking not being one of them )

So, no, I guess I haven't. But then, I don't think I've ever met a man, even among the gay men I know, that has absolutely no traditionally male interests or skills. I'd say that man would be fairly hard to find, wouldn't you?

I think there are lots of guys who don't feel so "alpha" - especially now, in this economy. Guys without material athletic, martial arts, or weapons skills. Guys who feel insecure about their place in society in general, and their relationships with women in particular.

Hence rising alcoholism, suicide, and domestic violence rates.

Back to Shank, here you go, and I miss him, too.

http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=486595

 

[Keroin]

I think there are lots of guys who don't feel so "alpha" - especially now, in this economy. Guys without material athletic, martial arts, or weapons skills. Guys who feel insecure about their place in society in general, and their relationships with women in particular.

Hence rising alcoholism, suicide, and domestic violence rates.

Back to Shank, here you go, and I miss him, too.

http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=486595

Of course not but I'm not sure what your original point was now? What does my preference in males have to do with the responses I described? Just curious.

BTW, "alpha", to me, is a very intangible "vibe" that is not necessarily connected to financial wealth, social status and/or physical size.

Thanks for the link, will read later!

 

[Homburg]

Me too. I got in touch with him about a month ago and he said he'd left all this stuff behind and wouldn't be coming back. Whatever that means.

Is he doing well?

--

I guess it depends what you mean by "overtly masculine."

If most women want to fuck "that alpha guy," then there's tremendous pressure on most guys - from women - to be "alpha." Whatever that means!

I do see pressure to be alpha (and, no, I can't say that I can put a definition on that either) because that is what they often like. So, yes, pressure in the form of selection, but there is a fine balancing act. The insecure chap sees the alpha guy get selected so he apes the more obvious traits without actually having the factors that make those traits worthwhile. Women that like that alpha vibe go with these guys because, well, it's all they can find. The cycle perpetuates due a lack of introspection, and thus no solid knowledge of what the individual actually wants.

The other issue, and perhaps I am splitting hairs, is that many people have a dichotomy between what their genitals want and what they want to actually cohabit with. While the bad boy in the video may get her nethers damp, she can't stand to live with his erratic behaviour, and vice versa.

 

[Keroin]

I do see pressure to be alpha (and, no, I can't say that I can put a definition on that either) because that is what they often like. So, yes, pressure in the form of selection, but there is a fine balancing act. The insecure chap sees the alpha guy get selected so he apes the more obvious traits without actually having the factors that make those traits worthwhile. Women that like that alpha vibe go with these guys because, well, it's all they can find. The cycle perpetuates due a lack of introspection, and thus no solid knowledge of what the individual actually wants.

Word.

Interesting, I was just perusing the thread that JM linked and the story he tells about his coach is a perfect example of a quality I would ascribe to an "alpha". That is that he is man enough to cry in such a situation and to do so with his head held high. Speaks to a deep, inner confidence and self knowledge that is very, very attractive.

When I was much younger, I would be attracted to the guys aping the behaviour, simply because I didn't know any better. It took awhile to learn that what I was looking for was much deeper than that.

 

[satindesire]

So, no, I guess I haven't. But then, I don't think I've ever met a man, even among the gay men I know, that has absolutely no traditionally male interests or skills. I'd say that man would be fairly hard to find, wouldn't you?

Ed Zachery!