What is feminism?

[Keroin]

I love how the discussion of feminism usually evolves towards size, and safety. And that often, we're afraid of our own shadows, don't blame me, blame the fear mongering press. Seriously? A woman going out to drink has more to think about than her male counterpart.. don't do this, wear that, or enjoy any of it.. cause if you do.. *insert shaking shaming fist here*. Plus we continue to perpetrate this victim blaming stance when something does happen.. yeah you know.. "she asked for it". Fuck that noise.

Nevertheless! I had to put my own two cents in here, mostly cause I identify as a feminist (gasp! they do exist!) and a submissive (Double gasp!) Yeah I live with the dichotomies.

Short answer to the original question, no things aren't equal. They are just more insidious than before.

And please.. men getting unfair treatment because of feminism? Man up on this one, it's been coming for generations. And let's not pretend that the construction of masculinity is any less harmful to men as the construction of femininity is to women. Gender binaries suck.

I am all for the fall of the patriarchal western power over nonsense.

/rant over. Thank you!

Around here, discussion of feminism tends to swing in all kinds of directions, not just size and strength, which is why I find it such an interesting topic.

Here's the thing, I live in reality. I work to change that reality, yes, but it won't change overnight. I'm all for ending the nonsense too but it doesn't end with a snap of the fingers and wishful thinking.

When it comes to safety, I have a bit more to consider than a man most places. Sad fact but fact nonetheless. I have the choice to put on my rose coloured glasses and pretend it isn't so or I can take *simple* steps to reduce my risk. I feel terrible for any victims of violence - very few people in this world "ask for it" - but my sympathy is much less for those who are ignorant and careless. This applies every bit as much to the man driving 120 km/h at night in the driving rain as it does to the drunken young girl stumbling out of the nightclub alone in her heels and mini.

 

[Keroin]

Positive moments in feminism...

I love when L and I are working on a construction project and our clients have kids, especially young girls. To me, there's something satisfying about having a young person see a woman swinging a hammer and operating power tools. Not that they have to grow up to become construction workers, just that they get to see that, yes, a woman can do those things too.

That's something I never saw as a young girl.

Also, my nephews grew up seeing their aunty doing a very man's job. (They got a few very fun car rides out of the deal too ) I really hope that made an impression on them, as far as how they view occupations for women.

Be the change you want to see in the world, yadda, yadda, yadda...

 

[Ausus_girl13]

Here's the thing, I live in reality. I work to change that reality, yes, but it won't change overnight. I'm all for ending the nonsense too but it doesn't end with a snap of the fingers and wishful thinking.

When it comes to safety, I have a bit more to consider than a man most places. Sad fact but fact nonetheless. I have the choice to put on my rose coloured glasses and pretend it isn't so or I can take *simple* steps to reduce my risk. I feel terrible for any victims of violence - very few people in this world "ask for it" - but my sympathy is much less for those who are ignorant and careless. This applies every bit as much to the man driving 120 km/h at night in the driving rain as it does to the drunken young girl stumbling out of the nightclub alone in her heels and mini.

Not disagreeing with you one iota. There is so much work to be done that it isn't even funny. I know that I on a daily basis both fight against and accept the reality that is mine living in the society that holds the male gender above my own. Not fun.

But I have a really hard time swallowing that the drunken young girl in heels and a mini deserves ANYTHING.. merely cause she's drunk and wearing clothing. Sorry inconvenient excuse, she doesn't deserve to be mistreated for anything. When we begin to accept that this girl, hypothetically deserves something for her careless behavior, wait.. we already do don't we? Here's a question for you, why don't we expect the men around her to contain themselves? After all, we know that they are capable of it.

 

[Keroin]

Not disagreeing with you one iota. There is so much work to be done that it isn't even funny. I know that I on a daily basis both fight against and accept the reality that is mine living in the society that holds the male gender above my own. Not fun.

But I have a really hard time swallowing that the drunken young girl in heels and a mini deserves ANYTHING.. merely cause she's drunk and wearing clothing. Sorry inconvenient excuse, she doesn't deserve to be mistreated for anything. When we begin to accept that this girl, hypothetically deserves something for her careless behavior, wait.. we already do don't we? Here's a question for you, why don't we expect the men around her to contain themselves? After all, we know that they are capable of it.

I didn't say she deserved it. That is not at all what I believe. I think you are misreading me. I said I have less sympathy for her than others. As for the men, I do expect them to contain themselves but - back to reality - I know there are always those who won't. As I'm sure most women with a brain know, as well.

 

[Netzach]

My sympathies for young men drunk off their asses getting hurt in bar fights are not the same as for young men randomly mugged and punched in the face, either. There is some gender equity thing when it comes to giving up that degree of control to the people around you who are equally as drunk. It's called "bad idea." This notion that one should have to take no common sense responsibility for themselves because they are female is actually paternalistic to me.

 

[DVS]

Um, I think you are confusing me with someone else.

Jeanpool, maybe?

 

[intothewoods]

What kind of violence are we talking about? If we're talking about whether men should contain themselves, then we're talking about rape, and I don't think the mini and heels have a damn thing to do with a rape in which victim and rapist do not know each other.

I agree that being alone in a dangerous area puts you at risk for mugging, robbery, that sort of thing. And then there are just random acts of violence. There have been some very well-publicized random acts of violence in my town that have a lot to do with race and class, but are not sexual in nature. In other words, mini and heels, track suit, doesn't matter. But if we're talking about rape, rapists aren't just horny guys that see a flash of skin and become compelled to follow a chick down a dark alley. The important part would be that there's a woman alone. Look at stats on these kinds of rape victims. They're not by and large wearing skanky outfits.

Now if we're talking the Accused or whatever, I think that puts us in another category. Woman comes in too a bar scantily clad, flirts up a storm, men feel they're entitled to sex, woman wants to leave. If I recall that scene correctly -- it's been ten years or something since I've seen it. No one deserves to be raped -- of course, period, end of story. But acting like a tease (not commenting on the movie anymore - the details are a bit fuzzy) isn't nice and is risky.

 

[Keroin]

What kind of violence are we talking about? If we're talking about whether men should contain themselves, then we're talking about rape, and I don't think the mini and heels have a damn thing to do with a rape in which victim and rapist do not know each other.

I agree that being alone in a dangerous area puts you at risk for mugging, robbery, that sort of thing. And then there are just random acts of violence. There have been some very well-publicized random acts of violence in my town that have a lot to do with race and class, but are not sexual in nature. In other words, mini and heels, track suit, doesn't matter. But if we're talking about rape, rapists aren't just horny guys that see a flash of skin and become compelled to follow a chick down a dark alley. The important part would be that there's a woman alone. Look at stats on these kinds of rape victims. They're not by and large wearing skanky outfits.

Now if we're talking the Accused or whatever, I think that puts us in another category. Woman comes in too a bar scantily clad, flirts up a storm, men feel they're entitled to sex, woman wants to leave. If I recall that scene correctly -- it's been ten years or something since I've seen it. No one deserves to be raped -- of course, period, end of story. But acting like a tease (not commenting on the movie anymore - the details are a bit fuzzy) isn't nice and is risky.

Just to clarify again...

When I bring up clothing, I am not trying to say that a woman dressed promiscuously is more likely to get raped, or deserves to get raped, etc. I am referring to how impractical, (especially the tall shoes), are when you are a) inebriated and b) in an environment where you may have to run/fight. And again, as part of a package.

As for violence, in the case of women, I am referring to any kind of violence.

 

[Netzach]

It doesn't have to even be a question of rape - I agree vicitms aren't selected by skirt, but a pencil skirt limits your options in a confrontation, period.

If you look at just the irritating skeeviness and unwanted male interaction that make life a son of a bitch at times - this goes up exponentially when I wear a dress and heels versus sweats and two day hair and I'd have to be a moron not to notice any relationship.

I hear people complain about this all the time and they insist they get as harrassed in jeans and hoodie as in short skirt and heels and I'm not buying, I'm just not.

I'm not saying we should all have to live in sweats and two day hair, but don't bitch about the depletion of energy of catcalls when you're flashing your boobs and asscrack. Yes you should be able to with NO fallout, and I also should be able to get socialized healthcare and bacon should grow on trees instead of on little piggies.

This is also an example of non-world-ending sexism oh noes that makes me point to a map of the world and cry.

 

[Netzach]

Just to clarify again...

When I bring up clothing, I am not trying to say that a woman dressed promiscuously is more likely to get raped, or deserves to get raped, etc. I am referring to how impractical, (especially the tall shoes), are when you are a) inebriated and b) in an environment where you may have to run/fight. And again, as part of a package.

As for violence, in the case of women, I am referring to any kind of violence.

In the instance I brought it up initially, I'm also talking about mobility.

Distance, center of gravity, protect the noggin, get away!

 

[Keroin]

In the instance I brought it up initially, I'm also talking about mobility.

Distance, center of gravity, protect the noggin, get away!

Yup.

Here's another slant on bar violence...

I used to date this gigantic Croatian fellow. 6'3", 240lbs, solid muscle, black belt and mean looking. Thing is, he wasn't mean at all, he was a total pussy cat, intelligent, kind, well spoken, etc. You wouldn't peg him for the sort that would be a "victim" but because of his size and physical appearance, tough guys were forever trying to pick fights with him. Poor J would try his best to talk his way out but inevitably one of these macho losers would take a jab at him...and J would have to defend himself. It never ended well for his attackers but he hated hurting people.

He figured out the deal pretty quickly and, as a result, whenever we would go out to a club or a bar he always had to be alert and keep a clear head. That was his reality. Was it fair? No. But he understood the risks and acted accordingly.

So I fail to understand why it would be wrong to expect the same kind of risk management from a 5'4", 100lb woman?

 

[Ausus_girl13]

So I fail to understand why it would be wrong to expect the same kind of risk management from a 5'4", 100lb woman?

Ah. But now we are talking basic humanity, and while he is expected to keep a clear head in case of fights... she is expected to keep a clear head because she might be sexually violated. Somehow the two sides of the coin don't add up.

To be sure. I hear you. I do understand that it is important to keep your head on straight and be safe about your own body. But we don't always work that way. What I am saying is just because she's drunk and in heels isn't an open invitation and excusing the guys (cause boys will be boys) makes it as bad as openly blaming her.

Her actions should have nothing to do with what the men around her might possibly do. Besides, almost all rape cases are committed by someone the "victim" knows. ("victim" in quotes cause not all survivor's identify as victims). So the chances of being jumped in the bushes relatively small, but that first date.. well... that could be another story.

 

[Keroin]

Ah. But now we are talking basic humanity, and while he is expected to keep a clear head in case of fights... she is expected to keep a clear head because she might be sexually violated. Somehow the two sides of the coin don't add up.

To be sure. I hear you. I do understand that it is important to keep your head on straight and be safe about your own body. But we don't always work that way. What I am saying is just because she's drunk and in heels isn't an open invitation and excusing the guys (cause boys will be boys) makes it as bad as openly blaming her.

Her actions should have nothing to do with what the men around her might possibly do. Besides, almost all rape cases are committed by someone the "victim" knows. ("victim" in quotes cause not all survivor's identify as victims). So the chances of being jumped in the bushes relatively small, but that first date.. well... that could be another story.

Once again...

Just to clarify again...

When I bring up clothing, I am not trying to say that a woman dressed promiscuously is more likely to get raped, or deserves to get raped, etc. I am referring to how impractical, (especially the tall shoes), are when you are a) inebriated and b) in an environment where you may have to run/fight. And again, as part of a package.

As for violence, in the case of women, I am referring to any kind of violence.

And I think the "should" I've bolded in your statement is important. I should be able to walk anywhere at night safely. Can I?

My friend J should be able to go have a drink with his friends without getting picked on because of his appearance.

 

[Ausus_girl13]

Don't think I am disagreeing with you, I am talking about the reactions to these behaviors.

Besides your friend J has had to change his behaviors accordingly, and it looks as if you have too, so have many women.. that does NOT excuse the fact that it is wrong, reality or not.

It's when we lay down and accept that and there is nothing that we can do about it, THEN in that moment feminism dies.

Just because it's our reality doesn't mean it's right or that we have to accept it. It's not enough to just say.. oh I can't be safe drunk and at a bar cause I am a girl, fuck it... sorry, feminism needs more than that. It has to be "I am going to that bar and I am getting drunk, and my friends will be with me, and I deserve the right to say NO and have it mean something."

It doesn't mean that it can happen, but dammit when do we get our chance? I for one am a little tired of the "boys will be boys" and "he can't help it". Almost all of my friends and myself have been affected by sexual assault. It's getting a little old to step aside and see the constant "She should have known better."

Side note- Keroin, awesome discussion, have totally enjoyed it. Excuse my rather overbearing ideals on this.

 

[intothewoods]

It doesn't have to even be a question of rape - I agree vicitms aren't selected by skirt, but a pencil skirt limits your options in a confrontation, period.

If you look at just the irritating skeeviness and unwanted male interaction that make life a son of a bitch at times - this goes up exponentially when I wear a dress and heels versus sweats and two day hair and I'd have to be a moron not to notice any relationship.

I hear people complain about this all the time and they insist they get as harrassed in jeans and hoodie as in short skirt and heels and I'm not buying, I'm just not.

I'm not saying we should all have to live in sweats and two day hair, but don't bitch about the depletion of energy of catcalls when you're flashing your boobs and asscrack. Yes you should be able to with NO fallout, and I also should be able to get socialized healthcare and bacon should grow on trees instead of on little piggies.

This is also an example of non-world-ending sexism oh noes that makes me point to a map of the world and cry.

My point is just that yes, you can fight better in sweats, but I don't think a skirt makes you more likely to get raped. I just don't think it's that simple.

Oh, and Keroin, I understand you didn't say that, but I think the thread keeps going down that track and I just want to clarify as well.

As far as catcalls and all that go, yes, you can dress a certain way and it will attract sexual attention, and that's just life. I'm not selling candy bars to raise money for that fired JP Morgan (or wherever) chick anytime soon. Not that I think you should be fired for being hot, but for sure this is non-world-ending stuff.

 

[Keroin]

Don't think I am disagreeing with you, I am talking about the reactions to these behaviors.

Besides your friend J has had to change his behaviors accordingly, and it looks as if you have too, so have many women.. that does NOT excuse the fact that it is wrong, reality or not.

It's when we lay down and accept that and there is nothing that we can do about it, THEN in that moment feminism dies.

Just because it's our reality doesn't mean it's right or that we have to accept it. It's not enough to just say.. oh I can't be safe drunk and at a bar cause I am a girl, fuck it... sorry, feminism needs more than that. It has to be "I am going to that bar and I am getting drunk, and my friends will be with me, and I deserve the right to say NO and have it mean something."

It doesn't mean that it can happen, but dammit when do we get our chance? I for one am a little tired of the "boys will be boys" and "he can't help it". Almost all of my friends and myself have been affected by sexual assault. It's getting a little old to step aside and see the constant "She should have known better."

Side note- Keroin, awesome discussion, have totally enjoyed it. Excuse my rather overbearing ideals on this.

Oh gosh, no need for apologies. I love a lively debate, especially today since I am home bound due to my stupid, stupid toothache. (Why do they always happen on the weekend?)

As for the bar argument, it was just one example, though I know it's a heated one. And, frankly, I consider my right to get stupid drunk with my mates really quite low on the equality importance scale. (And I have a hard time staying awake past 10pm now anyway.)

Actually, I think our efforts are probably better directed towards empowering women whose basic human rights are pitiful or non-existent. Women who can be stoned to death, for example, for alleged infidelity.

Thanks for chiming in. I really do like to hear what everyone has to say about this subject.

 

[Keroin]

My point is just that yes, you can fight better in sweats, but I don't think a skirt makes you more likely to get raped. I just don't think it's that simple.

Oh, and Keroin, I understand you didn't say that, but I think the thread keeps going down that track and I just want to clarify as well.

As far as catcalls and all that go, yes, you can dress a certain way and it will attract sexual attention, and that's just life. I'm not selling candy bars to raise money for that fired JP Morgan (or wherever) chick anytime soon. Not that I think you should be fired for being hot, but for sure this is non-world-ending stuff.

I wish I had a pic of my old "clubbing" attire. It was comfortable as hell but I think I still looked dead sexy in it. It was kinda like this...

http://albherto.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/matrix4.jpg

Kung-fu approved but bootylicious too.

ETA: No gun though. I'm a Canuck, after all.

 

[Ausus_girl13]

My point is just that yes, you can fight better in sweats, but I don't think a skirt makes you more likely to get raped. I just don't think it's that simple.

Oh, and Keroin, I understand you didn't say that, but I think the thread keeps going down that track and I just want to clarify as well.

As far as catcalls and all that go, yes, you can dress a certain way and it will attract sexual attention, and that's just life. I'm not selling candy bars to raise money for that fired JP Morgan (or wherever) chick anytime soon. Not that I think you should be fired for being hot, but for sure this is non-world-ending stuff.

Agreed. Also to your earlier statement you hit the nail on the head.

Oh gosh, no need for apologies. I love a lively debate, especially today since I am home bound due to my stupid, stupid toothache. (Why do they always happen on the weekend?)

As for the bar argument, it was just one example, though I know it's a heated one. And, frankly, I consider my right to get stupid drunk with my mates really quite low on the equality importance scale. (And I have a hard time staying awake past 10pm now anyway.)

Actually, I think our efforts are probably better directed towards empowering women whose basic human rights are pitiful or non-existent. Women who can be stoned to death, for example, for alleged infidelity.

Thanks for chiming in. I really do like to hear what everyone has to say about this subject.

No worries. And I think the most important part of that statement is the "alleged" part. Makes me ill. See?!?! I really try to be radical and say.. maybe it's time for men to be brought into the conversation of feminism and then.. they go and do something like this... and I start thinking.. castration. J/K.

 

[laceandcogs]

I don't wish to jump in on this discussion out of nowhere, but I have been following the thread, and I would really like to contribute to the question of rape awareness and victim blaming.

I do not support the blaming of victims of any violence. Everyone should be able to move freely and safely through the world, as long as they behave with respect and decency toward others. In the end, we're all just trying to have a day here, and our interactions with others should, ideally, be cordial, helpful, and consensual.

Now that the ideal has been agreed upon, we must address the ways in which reality falls bleakly short of it. One of these ways is that there are in fact people who do not wish to participate in cordial, helpful, and consensual society. We can spend weeks discussing why, and what they really want, and whether their choices are truly free either. We could spend years bitching about the "boys will be boys" mantra, the shortfalls of the justice system, the aggressively anti-female media. Or, we could look at the facts as they are and work to change them =while simultaneously making good, intelligent decisions=.

I am a rape victim. I have twice been violated in non-social contexts where I thought I was safe, and loved. I feel an instant sympathy and a shared pain for any woman or man who has been similarly abused. But there are duties of responsibility, and I feel a twinge of anger toward every girl who gets drunk past the point of sense at a party or at a bar and seems surprised and wounded by the consequences of becoming unable to defend oneself, unable to reason, in a room full of strangers.

I will say something very insensitive, yet very honest, right now, because I believe more in honesty than in kindness. Those girls cheapen the experience of rape, and they are a large part of what enables victim blaming and media circuses to continue. I cannot feel the same sympathy for a girl who behaves in a reckless, irresponsible fashion as I would for a woman who didn't drink herself into oblivion. Men have a responsibility to behave, to treat women with respect, and to hear, believe, and understand "no". But women- indeed, EVERYONE, in any situation, has a responsibility to remain aware of their surroundings and capable of dealing with them.

Should we be able to go out with our girlfriends and get hammered, in an ideal world? I suppose we should, if that's what we wanted to do. But this is not an ideal world, and there are dangers, and while we work to address them we need to keep our heads on straight and our eyes open.

 

[Keroin]

I don't wish to jump in on this discussion out of nowhere, but I have been following the thread, and I would really like to contribute to the question of rape awareness and victim blaming.

I do not support the blaming of victims of any violence. Everyone should be able to move freely and safely through the world, as long as they behave with respect and decency toward others. In the end, we're all just trying to have a day here, and our interactions with others should, ideally, be cordial, helpful, and consensual.

Now that the ideal has been agreed upon, we must address the ways in which reality falls bleakly short of it. One of these ways is that there are in fact people who do not wish to participate in cordial, helpful, and consensual society. We can spend weeks discussing why, and what they really want, and whether their choices are truly free either. We could spend years bitching about the "boys will be boys" mantra, the shortfalls of the justice system, the aggressively anti-female media. Or, we could look at the facts as they are and work to change them =while simultaneously making good, intelligent decisions=.

I am a rape victim. I have twice been violated in non-social contexts where I thought I was safe, and loved. I feel an instant sympathy and a shared pain for any woman or man who has been similarly abused. But there are duties of responsibility, and I feel a twinge of anger toward every girl who gets drunk past the point of sense at a party or at a bar and seems surprised and wounded by the consequences of becoming unable to defend oneself, unable to reason, in a room full of strangers.

I will say something very insensitive, yet very honest, right now, because I believe more in honesty than in kindness. Those girls cheapen the experience of rape, and they are a large part of what enables victim blaming and media circuses to continue. I cannot feel the same sympathy for a girl who behaves in a reckless, irresponsible fashion as I would for a woman who didn't drink herself into oblivion. Men have a responsibility to behave, to treat women with respect, and to hear, believe, and understand "no". But women- indeed, EVERYONE, in any situation, has a responsibility to remain aware of their surroundings and capable of dealing with them.

Should we be able to go out with our girlfriends and get hammered, in an ideal world? I suppose we should, if that's what we wanted to do. But this is not an ideal world, and there are dangers, and while we work to address them we need to keep our heads on straight and our eyes open.

Wow, thanks so much for contributing and for your honesty.

Your last sentence, particularly, encapsulates what I have been trying to say.

 

[laceandcogs]

Wow, thanks so much for contributing and for your honesty.

Your last sentence, particularly, encapsulates what I have been trying to say.

Thank you very much. I appreciate the compliment- I've been very impressed by your points in this thread. I also think that it's awesome that you recognize that being out in your work and letting little girls watch a woman do "a man's job" is a really important and cool thing! If only I could get my niece out of her Cinderella dress and into a toolbelt...

 

[blane75]

Gotta elaborate this statement.. equal where? Globally?

Yeah. Men and women are different and will never be equal because they are men and women. You can only be equal where the playing field can be level. Men are designed differently and are therefore more suited to certain types of tasks. Women are the same. There are always exceptions.

Put them both on a playing field where there are equalizers, and they can be as equal as they can achieve. Politics. Education. Trainable vocations. Hell, each can shoot a gun and be killed by one just as easily. In those areas they can and should be considered equal. But overall the comparisons are apples to oranges.

 

[Keroin]

Thank you very much. I appreciate the compliment- I've been very impressed by your points in this thread. I also think that it's awesome that you recognize that being out in your work and letting little girls watch a woman do "a man's job" is a really important and cool thing! If only I could get my niece out of her Cinderella dress and into a toolbelt...

LOL, well I think that the end goal, for me anyway, is to have a world where girls have an equal opportunity to be Cinderella or Bob the Builder (Roberta the Builder?).

One of my earliest "feminist" memories was about my love for dirtbikes. I wanted one probably from the day I read "The Mouse and the Motorcycle", lol. In my neighbourhood, there were always bunches of kids hanging around and one day one of the older boys showed up on a dirtbike and offered to give any of us who wanted one a ride. JOY!!! I was the first to hop on and the two of us went ripping around through all the trails, (without helmets, I'm sure). I was in heaven.

Then, somehow, my grandma (who lived with us) found out where I was and came running out of the house in a tither. Did I get in huge trouble for that stunt or what. I begged and begged my parents for a bike but in those days girls simply did not ride dirtbikes. And I remember feeling cheated and angry and confused. I was about seven years old and this was the first time I realized that life would deny me certain pleasures just because I had the misfortune of being born female.

I was 25 when I bought my first dirtbike. A beat up old Honda XR100. What a proud day, though. A few years later I bought a brand new XR250 R that I churched up for Baja. I will never forget the day I overheard my husband telling our friends about a back country ride we did and how amazed he was that I had done a ride that few men could have done.

Feminism, to me, (in the first world), is not so much about saying "You must accept me as an equal, no matter what!", as it is about having the freedom to follow your heart.

 

[laceandcogs]

Feminism, to me, (in the first world), is not so much about saying "You must accept me as an equal, no matter what!", as it is about having the freedom to follow your heart.

Oh my god, yes! I think that feminism requires that each woman be willing to accept the freely made choices of each other, whether they're the same ones she'd make for herself or not. I can accept Y's Mormonism, if she comes to it willingly and honestly. I can accept X's belief that skirts are symbolic oppression. I can accept B's insistence that all housework be split between her and her partner exactly fifty fifty, every single time. But in return, I want them to accept my own approach to owning my femininity, my sexuality, my gender, my sex.

 

[Netzach]

I don't wish to jump in on this discussion out of nowhere, but I have been following the thread, and I would really like to contribute to the question of rape awareness and victim blaming.

I do not support the blaming of victims of any violence. Everyone should be able to move freely and safely through the world, as long as they behave with respect and decency toward others. In the end, we're all just trying to have a day here, and our interactions with others should, ideally, be cordial, helpful, and consensual.

Now that the ideal has been agreed upon, we must address the ways in which reality falls bleakly short of it. One of these ways is that there are in fact people who do not wish to participate in cordial, helpful, and consensual society. We can spend weeks discussing why, and what they really want, and whether their choices are truly free either. We could spend years bitching about the "boys will be boys" mantra, the shortfalls of the justice system, the aggressively anti-female media. Or, we could look at the facts as they are and work to change them =while simultaneously making good, intelligent decisions=.

I am a rape victim. I have twice been violated in non-social contexts where I thought I was safe, and loved. I feel an instant sympathy and a shared pain for any woman or man who has been similarly abused. But there are duties of responsibility, and I feel a twinge of anger toward every girl who gets drunk past the point of sense at a party or at a bar and seems surprised and wounded by the consequences of becoming unable to defend oneself, unable to reason, in a room full of strangers.

I will say something very insensitive, yet very honest, right now, because I believe more in honesty than in kindness. Those girls cheapen the experience of rape, and they are a large part of what enables victim blaming and media circuses to continue. I cannot feel the same sympathy for a girl who behaves in a reckless, irresponsible fashion as I would for a woman who didn't drink herself into oblivion. Men have a responsibility to behave, to treat women with respect, and to hear, believe, and understand "no". But women- indeed, EVERYONE, in any situation, has a responsibility to remain aware of their surroundings and capable of dealing with them.

Should we be able to go out with our girlfriends and get hammered, in an ideal world? I suppose we should, if that's what we wanted to do. But this is not an ideal world, and there are dangers, and while we work to address them we need to keep our heads on straight and our eyes open.

This.