What is feminism?

[JMohegan]

Off topic Q: how many people here have taken a self-defense class, and I don't mean the BS kind with the guy in padding where they teach you how strong you really are in a fight?

(raises hand)

I never have. Not self defense, not martial arts, not gun or other weapons training. Never wanted to, never felt the need to, never had a moment where I thought 'fuck I wish I had.'

The only serious physical fights I've ever been in took place because I intervened on behalf of females. I was raised to believe that an honorable man does not stand by while a woman is being sexually assaulted. An honorable man intervenes - even if the female had abdicated personal responsibility by getting plastered, and even if the perfectly sober female had provoked her assailants shamelessly.

I agree with the thrust of your comments, and those of Keroin, ITW, and Laceandcogs on this subject. All adults should take responsibility for their own behavior. Behavior has consequences, for oneself and others. Maturity means recognizing that fact, and behaving accordingly.

I don't wish to jump in on this discussion out of nowhere, but I have been following the thread, and I would really like to contribute to the question of rape awareness and victim blaming.

I do not support the blaming of victims of any violence. Everyone should be able to move freely and safely through the world, as long as they behave with respect and decency toward others. In the end, we're all just trying to have a day here, and our interactions with others should, ideally, be cordial, helpful, and consensual.

Now that the ideal has been agreed upon, we must address the ways in which reality falls bleakly short of it. One of these ways is that there are in fact people who do not wish to participate in cordial, helpful, and consensual society. We can spend weeks discussing why, and what they really want, and whether their choices are truly free either. We could spend years bitching about the "boys will be boys" mantra, the shortfalls of the justice system, the aggressively anti-female media. Or, we could look at the facts as they are and work to change them =while simultaneously making good, intelligent decisions=.

I am a rape victim. I have twice been violated in non-social contexts where I thought I was safe, and loved. I feel an instant sympathy and a shared pain for any woman or man who has been similarly abused. But there are duties of responsibility, and I feel a twinge of anger toward every girl who gets drunk past the point of sense at a party or at a bar and seems surprised and wounded by the consequences of becoming unable to defend oneself, unable to reason, in a room full of strangers.

I will say something very insensitive, yet very honest, right now, because I believe more in honesty than in kindness. Those girls cheapen the experience of rape, and they are a large part of what enables victim blaming and media circuses to continue. I cannot feel the same sympathy for a girl who behaves in a reckless, irresponsible fashion as I would for a woman who didn't drink herself into oblivion. Men have a responsibility to behave, to treat women with respect, and to hear, believe, and understand "no". But women- indeed, EVERYONE, in any situation, has a responsibility to remain aware of their surroundings and capable of dealing with them.

Should we be able to go out with our girlfriends and get hammered, in an ideal world? I suppose we should, if that's what we wanted to do. But this is not an ideal world, and there are dangers, and while we work to address them we need to keep our heads on straight and our eyes open.

This is just beautifully written.

 

[laceandcogs]

Thank you. I appreciate that you would defend another person while recognizing that they've made some pretty grave errors in judgement. I'd like to think that if I were in that situation, I would too. Fortunately, it's not come up. If it does, I'll think of what you said.

 

[00Syd]

Next time a man cat-calls you, ladies, try this. Stop, turn around so that you face him with your entire body, look him in the eye, and say "Excuse me, I don't think I heard you. What was that?" Keep your face just shy of a smile, and raise a brow like you're really interested in the answer. Obviously, this technique is only advisable in daylight, on more populated streets, or while you're in a safe group. But you'd be amazed how many of these pricks shrivel up and walk off when confronted.

The last thing I want to do is talk to these guys. Yeah, a lot of them might walk away when confronted, but there is always the chance that the guy I'm confronting is the guy who takes my looking at him and talking to him as an invitation. In my experience, if you even so much as look at some of these guys they take that as an invitation to talk to you further, and then get insulted when you don't respond. I've had guys yell at me as I walk away, because, I don't know, they expected I would immediately fuck them or something? The technique that's worked best for me so far is to simply ignore them, don't look at them, and just walk away.

 

[Netzach]

The last thing I want to do is talk to these guys. Yeah, a lot of them might walk away when confronted, but there is always the chance that the guy I'm confronting is the guy who takes my looking at him and talking to him as an invitation. In my experience, if you even so much as look at some of these guys they take that as an invitation to talk to you further, and then get insulted when you don't respond. I've had guys yell at me as I walk away, because, I don't know, they expected I would immediately fuck them or something? The technique that's worked best for me so far is to simply ignore them, don't look at them, and just walk away.

Same here, ignore march on. If you feel the need to respond they win - you don't owe anyone interaction.

 

[JMohegan]

Thank you. I appreciate that you would defend another person while recognizing that they've made some pretty grave errors in judgement. I'd like to think that if I were in that situation, I would too. Fortunately, it's not come up. If it does, I'll think of what you said.

Sometimes 911 is the best, or in fact only, option. It all depends.

If you don't believe you have a good chance of physically terminating the assault, I would definitely not recommend stepping in.

 

[Keroin]

(And I know that this is sort of a side discussion with less relevance than self-defense, but...)

As far as cat-calls go, man, I can't find any rhyme or reason to them. I can be wearing my most modest outfit, walking hand in hand with my boyfriend and still have guys yelling "hey baby" out of their car as they drive by. Or that (less-literal) drive by cat-call thing where you're walking down the street and you see a guy walking towards you and obviously checking you out, and then just as you're about to pass each other, he swoops in way too close, invades your personal bubble, and then says "hey girl" or something like that. That's the one that pisses me off the most.

But, yeah. I have never found that wearing something longer as opposed to shorter, or baggier as opposed to tighter, or whether or not I am already walking with a guy, affects how much I get hit on by dudes on the street.

Man, even in the winter when I'm wearing my big, bulky, practically-shapeless winter coat, I still get hit on. So, I am convinced that wearing sweats or a skirt makes absolutely no difference.

Catcalls bothered me and then they didn't. Suddenly, you hit a certain age and you get a catcall and you're like, "Yes!" *fist pump* LOL.

About 5 years ago I was walking past a group of young men, they were maybe 18 or 19 and one of them calls out, "Wow! Nice ass!" I think I smiled for a week.

The ones that bother me are the ones I get in some foreign countries. Those actually feel threatening, mostly because I know that some cultures believe that N. American women are "loose" and will target them for sexual assault. A girlfriend of mine once got aggressively felt-up, while sitting in her truck, at one of the military check points in Baja. Having blonde hair almost guarantees me catcalls in many parts of Mexico - no matter how I'm dressed. L and I once discussed doing a driving trip from Vancouver down to Costa Rica and I told him if we did I would invest in a dark haired wig to keep the attention to a minimum.

I would like to visit Sweden one day. It would be cool to go to an exotic foreign locale where I totally blend in for a change.

 

[Keroin]

It's just that in text, the 'joking' comes across as sarcasm and bragging. I'm sure if this conversation were verbal, we'd be fine

Not my intention, I assure you. And I was/am pretty heavily medicated, so I might come across as a bit edgier than usual - the internal filters being a tad "fuzzy" at the mo.

 

[JMohegan]

Don't think I am disagreeing with you, I am talking about the reactions to these behaviors.

Besides your friend J has had to change his behaviors accordingly, and it looks as if you have too, so have many women.. that does NOT excuse the fact that it is wrong, reality or not.

It's when we lay down and accept that and there is nothing that we can do about it, THEN in that moment feminism dies.

Just because it's our reality doesn't mean it's right or that we have to accept it. It's not enough to just say.. oh I can't be safe drunk and at a bar cause I am a girl, fuck it... sorry, feminism needs more than that. It has to be "I am going to that bar and I am getting drunk, and my friends will be with me, and I deserve the right to say NO and have it mean something."

It doesn't mean that it can happen, but dammit when do we get our chance? I for one am a little tired of the "boys will be boys" and "he can't help it". Almost all of my friends and myself have been affected by sexual assault. It's getting a little old to step aside and see the constant "She should have known better."

Side note- Keroin, awesome discussion, have totally enjoyed it. Excuse my rather overbearing ideals on this.

I don't think you sound overbearing. You do, however, seem to have an extremely idealistic view regarding women.

Some women are sexually assaulted when they've done nothing whatsoever to provoke such behavior. Other women do the female sexual equivalent of me walking into a biker bar, provoking the patrons, and then yelling "Hey, I was only kidding" just before I get punched.

 

[laceandcogs]

Same here, ignore march on. If you feel the need to respond they win - you don't owe anyone interaction.

No, I don't owe them anything... but I feel like ignoring their rudeness and complete lack of social graces is the same as endorsing them. It's not that they don't know it's wrong, it's that it's easier to keep doing something if you're never called on it.

If a man is going to be so base, so cheesy, so completely graceless as to proposition me in the street, I'm going to try to make him blush. I'm going to make him have the testicular fortitude to do it to my face. I might not make him regret it, I might not make him have some after-school-special epiphany, but I'm not going to turn the other cheek, either. In my experience, that just leads to two slapped cheeks. (smiles)

 

[Netzach]

No, I don't owe them anything... but I feel like ignoring their rudeness and complete lack of social graces is the same as endorsing them. It's not that they don't know it's wrong, it's that it's easier to keep doing something if you're never called on it.

If a man is going to be so base, so cheesy, so completely graceless as to proposition me in the street, I'm going to try to make him blush. I'm going to make him have the testicular fortitude to do it to my face. I might not make him regret it, I might not make him have some after-school-special epiphany, but I'm not going to turn the other cheek, either. In my experience, that just leads to two slapped cheeks. (smiles)

Syd and I are both from NYC, and I think this explains some of the "make contact only when utterly demanded" idea comes from. It has worked for me my whole life long. Every time you stop to do anything for another person is a possible confrontation you don't need to have. I don't walk off all dejected looking, just have better things to do.

 

[intothewoods]

Off topic Q: how many people here have taken a self-defense class, and I don't mean the BS kind with the guy in padding where they teach you how strong you really are in a fight?

(raises hand)

Yes, when I was 16, but most of it wasn't physical (although there were some good tricks and info about how much strength it takes to do x and y) so much as ways to keep your wits about you, avoid bad situations, etc. That stuff has stayed with me to this day.

 

[JMohegan]

I was

But, turns out you were right all along. Shoe fu, who knew??

That's hilarious. I've got no idea how the hell anyone could walk in those things, much less balance on one foot for a kick.

On the subject of impromptu weapons, it depends what's around, of course. But swinging and throwing are my strengths, so in emergencies, I convert whatever I can get my hands on into a "bat" or a "ball."

 

[laceandcogs]

That's hilarious. I've got no idea how the hell anyone could walk in those things, much less balance on one foot for a kick.

On the subject of impromptu weapons, it depends what's around, of course. But swinging and throwing are my strengths, so in emergencies, I convert whatever I can get my hands on into a "bat" or a "ball."

I am impressed by "Shoe Fu" too- I pride myself on being a heel connoisseur, but I don't think I could pull that off!

I fought for everything I've got, from my self-respect to my material goods, and anyone who wants to take any of it is going to have to work for that. As someone wise once said, it's not just about coming up... it's about staying on top. (winks) I'm healthy, I'm happy, I love who I am and what I do for the very first time in my life. If I'm going to go down, I'm going to go down clawing, biting, kicking, and fucking up Mr. X-Factor's day.

 

[intothewoods]

Side note on martial arts - I think the classes are amazing for kids - boys and girls. They really teach great physical self-confidence, but also control and restraint.

 

[Keroin]

That's hilarious. I've got no idea how the hell anyone could walk in those things, much less balance on one foot for a kick.

On the subject of impromptu weapons, it depends what's around, of course. But swinging and throwing are my strengths, so in emergencies, I convert whatever I can get my hands on into a "bat" or a "ball."

I've done full-on fight scenes in heels...it is very, very difficult.

The danger of weapons, particularly for those who are smaller or weaker, is that they can so easily be taken away and used against you. You have a good point, though, in that it's best to stick with something you're comfortable with.

If I ever have to walk any distance alone in an environment where I don't feel completely safe, I will take my truck keys, make a fist around the fob and other keys and have the largest key sticking out between my fingers. This is an easy and effective weapon that is difficult for someone to take away from you.

I should also note - since I sound a bit like Dirty Harry or something - I've only had two, minor, real life physical altercations. I work to avoid trouble of that nature. But, as a female, I'm very glad for my martial arts training as I at least have the knowledge that I could defend myself, to a certain degree, if I needed to.

 

[Keroin]

Side note on martial arts - I think the classes are amazing for kids - boys and girls. They really teach great physical self-confidence, but also control and restraint.

And discipline.

 

[intothewoods]

I've done full-on fight scenes in heels...it is very, very difficult.

The danger of weapons, particularly for those who are smaller or weaker, is that they can so easily be taken away and used against you. You have a good point, though, in that it's best to stick with something you're comfortable with.

If I ever have to walk any distance alone in an environment where I don't feel completely safe, I will take my truck keys, make a fist around the fob and other keys and have the largest key sticking out between my fingers. This is an easy and effective weapon that is difficult for someone to take away from you.

I should also note - since I sound a bit like Dirty Harry or something - I've only had two, minor, real life physical altercations. I work to avoid trouble of that nature. But, as a female, I'm very glad for my martial arts training as I at least have the knowledge that I could defend myself, to a certain degree, if I needed to.

I learned that one in class and do it routinely.

And discipline.

Absolutely. It's great.

 

[JMohegan]

I've done full-on fight scenes in heels...it is very, very difficult.

The danger of weapons, particularly for those who are smaller or weaker, is that they can so easily be taken away and used against you. You have a good point, though, in that it's best to stick with something you're comfortable with.

If I ever have to walk any distance alone in an environment where I don't feel completely safe, I will take my truck keys, make a fist around the fob and other keys and have the largest key sticking out between my fingers. This is an easy and effective weapon that is difficult for someone to take away from you.

I should also note - since I sound a bit like Dirty Harry or something - I've only had two, minor, real life physical altercations. I work to avoid trouble of that nature. But, as a female, I'm very glad for my martial arts training as I at least have the knowledge that I could defend myself, to a certain degree, if I needed to.

Ha. I don't think you sound like Dirty Harry. 'Go ahead, make my day,' is not my style either.

My mother once killed a rabid fox with a garden hoe. I heard my sister screaming, came running, and rounded the corner of the house - just in time to see Mom swing. Up over her right shoulder, down hard on the diagonal. The exact same motion she used to beat our rugs clean every spring.

 

[YourCaptor]

You know ladies, when you're on your back with an attacker between your legs you actually have the dominant position. At that point you are in total control, you can wrap your legs around him, as well as buck your hips (I'm totally serious) and control his momentum. You can push him forward, and sideways, the bigger the guy the harder it is to get them moving, but once they are moving, they don't stop. You can also punch at the face, and if he puts his hands up hes even more vulnerable balance wise. If you force his weight forward you can counter that with a punch or a stab and it will seriously fuck him up. You can also do some fancy rolls, to get away, hard to explain. You force his weight forward, shoot up with one arm over his on the side you want to roll too, so you are basically hugging, then you use your leg muscles to force him over on his back. If you do it right you can get him in a side mount, break his arm and choke him out all in the same move. Usually you end up on top, in which case you either want to unload on his face, or lean back on your heals, wedge his legs apart and get out. Or you can use a fancy move to crack his neck and chock at the same time. I like that one. Probably near impossible to do in actual combat though, multiple step thing.

Oh yeah, and if you fight, commit to it, that includes sacrifice. You will get hurt no matter what, accept it, and make him hurt more. Their is no such thing as a cheap shot.

 

[Seurat]

The only serious physical fights I've ever been in took place because I intervened on behalf of females. I was raised to believe that an honorable man does not stand by while a woman is being sexually assaulted. An honorable man intervenes - even if the female had abdicated personal responsibility by getting plastered, and even if the perfectly sober female had provoked her assailants shamelessly.

Where's that 'like' button again?

Closest I have ever had to having the police called on me was because of a situation like that. To this day I wish I had done the little shit more bodily harm.

 

[Stella_Omega]

You know ladies, when you're on your back with an attacker between your legs you actually have the dominant position. At that point you are in total control, you can wrap your legs around him, as well as buck your hips (I'm totally serious) and control his momentum. You can push him forward, and sideways, the bigger the guy the harder it is to get them moving, but once they are moving, they don't stop. You can also punch at the face, and if he puts his hands up hes even more vulnerable balance wise. If you force his weight forward you can counter that with a punch or a stab and it will seriously fuck him up. You can also do some fancy rolls, to get away, hard to explain. You force his weight forward, shoot up with one arm over his on the side you want to roll too, so you are basically hugging, then you use your leg muscles to force him over on his back. If you do it right you can get him in a side mount, break his arm and choke him out all in the same move. Usually you end up on top, in which case you either want to unload on his face, or lean back on your heals, wedge his legs apart and get out. Or you can use a fancy move to crack his neck and chock at the same time. I like that one. Probably near impossible to do in actual combat though, multiple step thing.

Oh yeah, and if you fight, commit to it, that includes sacrifice. You will get hurt no matter what, accept it, and make him hurt more. Their is no such thing as a cheap shot.

I'm going to have to see this in action.

 

[DVS]

I've done full-on fight scenes in heels...it is very, very difficult.

The danger of weapons, particularly for those who are smaller or weaker, is that they can so easily be taken away and used against you. You have a good point, though, in that it's best to stick with something you're comfortable with.

If I ever have to walk any distance alone in an environment where I don't feel completely safe, I will take my truck keys, make a fist around the fob and other keys and have the largest key sticking out between my fingers. This is an easy and effective weapon that is difficult for someone to take away from you.

I should also note - since I sound a bit like Dirty Harry or something - I've only had two, minor, real life physical altercations. I work to avoid trouble of that nature. But, as a female, I'm very glad for my martial arts training as I at least have the knowledge that I could defend myself, to a certain degree, if I needed to.

Keroin, I know Dirty Harry. Dirty Harry is a friend of mine. Keroin, you're no Dirty Harry.


But, you could still make my day if you really, REALLY wanted to.

 

[Keroin]

Keroin, I know Dirty Harry. Dirty Harry is a friend of mine. Keroin, you're no Dirty Harry.


But, you could still make my day if you really, REALLY wanted to.

Do you feel lucky, punk?

LOL.

 

[00Syd]

Syd and I are both from NYC, and I think this explains some of the "make contact only when utterly demanded" idea comes from. It has worked for me my whole life long. Every time you stop to do anything for another person is a possible confrontation you don't need to have. I don't walk off all dejected looking, just have better things to do.

Yeah, word.

 

[Homburg]

Off topic Q: how many people here have taken a self-defense class, and I don't mean the BS kind with the guy in padding where they teach you how strong you really are in a fight?

(raises hand)

I've taught them. The classes I found more useful were the awareness talk I got in a security class taught by a 25+ year street cop.

--

Taught women's self defense.

I used to teach very basic, easy to remember moves and I would stress, stress, stress that the likelihood that they would have the presence of mind to remember and properly execute those moves in the event of an attack was slim to none. Mostly what I stressed was...being prepared. Also learning not to present yourself as a victim

So I've taken MMA and have been a student instructor. My Kenpo instructor decided to do a free self-defense class aimed at women. Literally free, no attempt to sell Kenpo and he refused to sign anyone up if they asked. He was a good guy.

Anyway, he showed some moves for about 45 minutes and had them practice it, then turned the class over to me for "mindset instruction". The first thing I said was "All those moves are really good, and I suggest that you practice them. BUT, if you get into a situation where they might be useful, you have already made a series of mistakes." Then I talked for about 90 minutes about how to not get into a bad situation in the first place. Mostly awareness, planning your route, controlling the variables that you can control to mitigate those that you cannot, etc.

About half the class stayed after to thank me. It felt really good, and I'd do it again in a heartbeat. The fact that it was free made it even better.

--

This particular night, there was a group of recently graduated RCMP there, (known to be assholes, BTW).

Given the way they are portrayed in the US media, it's surprising to hear that. Mounties in American media are Captain Canada!

--

I'm going to have to see this in action.

The primary hold he is discussing is called "The Guard", and is a very well-known groundfighting technique. It really does work and is actually very simple to learn. And it can be used by someone much smaller than their adversary.

You can probably find a video of Royce Gracie vs Dan Servern from the original UFC. Gracie used the Guard incredibly well, and Dan had a lot of mass and strength on Gracie.

In actual practice, getting caught in someone's Guard can be a truly frustrating experience, even when you are stronger. I've gotten into those situations when sparring in MMA and been squirreled by a guy that was literally half my weight. 5'2" and 130lb and he just stopped me flat because he knew the Guard really, really well. As it primarily relies on lower body strength, it can be dead effective for a woman.