What is feminism?

[Homburg]

Unlike iron workers, construction workers, fireman or police that require a certain amount of bulk to do the job, some security positions have become just another office type job where anybody can be hired. There is no real training, nor does there seem to be any desire for training. People are hired without any thought of "what if" so their fellow employees end up assisting when in an actual equal work environment, this wouldn't be necessary.

A friend of mine went through fire academy about ten years, and there were women in the class. Part of his training, and eventual exam, was being able to carry a 200lb training dummy out a window and down a ladder. The women? Nope, 120lb dummy.

I feel for the female fire fighter that comes to my house should there be fire and I need extracted.

--

Yup.

Here's another slant on bar violence...

I used to date this gigantic Croatian fellow. 6'3", 240lbs, solid muscle, black belt and mean looking. Thing is, he wasn't mean at all, he was a total pussy cat, intelligent, kind, well spoken, etc. You wouldn't peg him for the sort that would be a "victim" but because of his size and physical appearance, tough guys were forever trying to pick fights with him.

Never once had this happen to me in normal attire. Had it happen when I've worked security, but not once in civvies. I guess the uniform made them go stupid or something.

 

[Black_Bunny]

So, you in heels and me in my running shoes x 100 metres? Who do you think will win? Now make me bigger and stronger and make you drunk and/or scared.

I wouldn't be running, I'd be stabbing your head in with my stilleto.

I agree with what you say about being aware of your surroundings, especially not being alone. It is stupid, male or female, to be walking down the street late at night, drunk and alone. Male or female, the chances of being mugged are high.

But I don't believe that women should have to dress a certain way, just so they are prepared and able to run or fight. If the group of friends they're with, and the club's security guards, aren't gonna stop some would-be attacker, then "practical shoes" ain't gonna do shit.

 

[Stella_Omega]

In the first bold text, I think that should be *insert shaking shaming finger here*. Fist seems too aggressive. And to the second bold text, I think lawyers have gone beyond what's good and decent when trying to make the rape victim seem like "she asked for it". When you are defending an obvious rapist in court, I guess you use anything you can that might equal the odds. And unfortunately, those tactics do still work with some juries. Then, the media has picked up on that and run with it, and then a certain part of society will always join in.

This is one place where Feminism (capital "F") has been instrumental in making a change. "She asked for it" has been a staple of rape defense for a few hundred years. Only recently has that defense begun to be discredited as often as not.

 

[Ausus_girl13]

http://bust.com/

I wouldn't be running, I'd be stabbing your head in with my stilleto.

I agree with what you say about being aware of your surroundings, especially not being alone. It is stupid, male or female, to be walking down the street late at night, drunk and alone. Male or female, the chances of being mugged are high.

But I don't believe that women should have to dress a certain way, just so they are prepared and able to run or fight. If the group of friends they're with, and the club's security guards, aren't gonna stop some would-be attacker, then "practical shoes" ain't gonna do shit.

Agreed. And the likely hood you are gonna be walking down that alleyway, drunk and be jumped? Pulled from the RAIIN website.. about 73% of victims know their assailant.

This is one place where Feminism (capital "F") has been instrumental in making a change. "She asked for it" has been a staple of rape defense for a few hundred years. Only recently has that defense begun to be discredited as often as not.

True. And well said!

Check it.. some of my favorite feminist websites..

http://www.feministing.com

http://bust.com/ <~ also a magazine which rocks.

http://bitchmagazine.org/<~ amazing feminist analysis of pop culture.

There's also Jezebel, and so many others... these are my favorites

 

[Netzach]

Off topic Q: how many people here have taken a self-defense class, and I don't mean the BS kind with the guy in padding where they teach you how strong you really are in a fight?

(raises hand)

 

[Stella_Omega]

there's only one way, that I can think of, that a man has to be careful of, when dressing.

And that is;

Too feminine.

A pink teeshirt-- He's really asking for trouble, what was he thinking!

Self defense? *raises hand* But.. it sure didn't make me feel any better or safer.

I'm thinking an aggressive art might be more... validating. Krav Maga or something. You know-- "I fight when I want, because I want to, not because I've just been attacked on account of having the vajayjay."

 

[Keroin]

Off topic Q: how many people here have taken a self-defense class, and I don't mean the BS kind with the guy in padding where they teach you how strong you really are in a fight?

(raises hand)

Taught women's self defense.

I used to teach very basic, easy to remember moves and I would stress, stress, stress that the likelihood that they would have the presence of mind to remember and properly execute those moves in the event of an attack was slim to none. Mostly what I stressed was...being prepared. Also learning not to present yourself as a victim.

ETA: Trained in Goju Ryu karate for nine years, fought competitively - semi-contact, some full contact - and instructed. Also trained in Arnis (Filipino stick and knife fighting), Shotokan karate, some kung fu and some ju jitsu.

 

[Keroin]

I wouldn't be running, I'd be stabbing your head in with my stilleto.

And in the time it takes you to bend down and remove your shoe and prepare to stab me in the head, I am doing what?

I agree with what you say about being aware of your surroundings, especially not being alone. It is stupid, male or female, to be walking down the street late at night, drunk and alone. Male or female, the chances of being mugged are high.

But I don't believe that women should have to dress a certain way, just so they are prepared and able to run or fight. If the group of friends they're with, and the club's security guards, aren't gonna stop some would-be attacker, then "practical shoes" ain't gonna do shit.

Refer to my original point wherein I talked about women who were alone, not with a group of friends. I didn't just reference the way a woman was dressed, either, I mentioned a combination of factors that, taken together, are unwise. I feel like a broken record, lol.

 

[Keroin]

Never once had this happen to me in normal attire. Had it happen when I've worked security, but not once in civvies. I guess the uniform made them go stupid or something.

Yeah, it was weird. I've known other big guys who've never had this problem but for some reason J was just a magnet for tough guys with something to prove.

The worst one happened at this usually-friendly nightclub we went to with our buddies now and then. It was laid back, couple of pool tables, a sit down area, a small dance floor, lots of college kids. This particular night, there was a group of recently graduated RCMP there, (known to be assholes, BTW).

A group of us are standing and talking when RCMP #1 comes up, frothing at the mouth, accusing J of stealing his pager, (yes, this was a long time ago, lol), and doing his best to push him into fisticuffs. All the while, J is trying to calm the guy down and be reasonable. Suddenly, RCMP #2 comes charging at J full speed. Out of pure instinct, J sidesteps and brings his elbow down on RCMP #2's face. The dude's nose explodes. RCMP #1 takes a "Holy shit!" step back while #2 stumbles off to the washroom to try to stop the blood geysering from his face.

About 3 seconds later, the DJ announces, "Someone's just turned in a pager they found on the dance floor. If you're missing a pager, please come up and see me."

RCMP #1 & 2 both apologize profusely. Idiots. J was cool about it but boy it really bothered him that he'd been forced into violence.

 

[Seurat]

Off topic Q: how many people here have taken a self-defense class, and I don't mean the BS kind with the guy in padding where they teach you how strong you really are in a fight?

Street fighting: learned by experience and a little traing from the older white boys how to stay alive during the race riots of '69 in Detroit. One hit take down stuff. Considering my reach (very good) and body mass (lacking) it's a good way to fight if need be. Added some judo/soft technique over the years to protect the back, and mandatory 'take down' classes for work, and I could defend myself if need be against common muggers, even if they outweigh me by 50 lbs. Teaching all the techniques to my daughter. If she wants more later, I'll gladly pay for classes.

 

[Black_Bunny]

And in the time it takes you to bend down and remove your shoe and prepare to stab me in the head, I am doing what?

I stab you in the foot first (steel caps are not allowed in clubs), and then I bend my knee to lift my foot up to slip off the shoe (not bend down).

Refer to my original point wherein I talked about women who were alone, not with a group of friends.

I know, that's why I agreed with you that it is stupid to go around late at night alone. With a group of friends, knowing where the security is, a woman should be allowed to wear what the fuck she wants.

Much like a man should be allowed to wear a pink shirt without being bashed for it.

 

[Keroin]

I stab you in the foot first (steel caps are not allowed in clubs), and then I bend my knee to lift my foot up to slip off the shoe (not bend down).

Well you're obviously a master of shoe fu and much more skilled in the defensive arts than I. What was I thinking?

 

[Black_Bunny]

Well you're obviously a master of shoe fu and much more skilled in the defensive arts than I. What was I thinking?

I'm not saying I'm more skilled than you, Keroin, I'm saying I know what I'd do when faced with the unskilled male moron that assumes that I'm incapable of defending myself. I also know that even if I was wearing running shoes and pants, I still wouldn't be able to outrun an attacker, so I may as well wear sexy shoes with a spike on them.

 

[Keroin]

I'm not saying I'm more skilled than you, Keroin, I'm saying I know what I'd do when faced with the unskilled male moron that assumes that I'm incapable of defending myself. I also know that even if I was wearing running shoes and pants, I still wouldn't be able to outrun an attacker, so I may as well wear sexy shoes with a spike on them.

I was

But, turns out you were right all along. Shoe fu, who knew??

 

[Keroin]

But seriously, some blathering about self defense...

Idea, practice and reality are three completely different matters. In an attack situation, when a person is very frightened, their body will revert to instinct. Anyone here who's done any serious martial arts training will attest to the fact that you practice the same basic moves over and over and over and over and over again until you are sick of them. Basically, you program your body to respond so that you don't have to think about it - think Karate Kid "wax on, wax off" - because in the moment you won't be able to think about it.

Also, for all my training, if a large/strong man wants to hurt me, he probably will. I don't kid myself about that. I'll go down fighting because that's what I've trained to do but there's a high likelihood that I will, in fact, go down. And not in the fun way.

Weapons are next to useless unless you have them immediately at the ready and even then there's a good chance they will still be useless depending on what type they are and how much training you've done with them - shoes included.

Something else to consider is that life is not like the movies. A serious strike to the face will throw most people, especially if it's something you've never experienced. The first time I took a hard right cross to the jaw, my world was rocked. I was only sparring at the time, had I been in a real life situation those few moments it took for me to gather my wits would have ended me.

http://www.thevancouverite.com/pictures/mouth-punch.jpg

Oh, and a knee to the nuts doesn't always work.

And blah, blah, blah...oh man I'm hungry and I sure wish I could sleep. tooth.

 

[Black_Bunny]

Yes thanks, I knew all that from my ex-husband who learnt a variety of martial arts.

Look, attacking someone in self-defense is only going to get me kicked out of the club, alone and without my friends (Yes, the guards are that stupid/couldn't care less). Relying on my friends / the supplied security is going to keep me as safe as possible. There are no situations where there is no security, or I am without friends, because I just don't go walking around the streets. Maybe it is different depending on where you live, how the city is laid out with its clubs, what security they have patrolling, etc.

 

[YourCaptor]

Feminism promotes power for women.

Today, I think feminism can be called a success. Problems are still around, but let’s face it, some kind of problem will always be there.

I think Men do experience some problems that need to be worked on. For example when a couple splits, a woman should not by default get half his stuff, and she should not be automatically preferred for child custody.

Women safety, because women are weaker precautions should be employed. Like womens parking, a womens subway car, etc. I do agree though that safety is something women should just know. Like keeping your legs closed when wearing a short skirt, or taking water when visiting death valley, common sense. Not saying women disregarding the situation deserve violence, but it’s not surprising. Stupidity does not lesson a crime.

Sex culturally, I think the US has a lot of hang-ups, but you know, whatever.

 

[Keroin]

...she should not be automatically preferred for child custody.

This is actually something that bothers me quite a bit. I have a few male friends who are great dads but ended up getting royally screwed in child custody/visitation/support issues.

 

[Keroin]

Yes thanks, I knew all that from my ex-husband who learnt a variety of martial arts.

That wasn't directed at you, by the way. Just late night, off topic rambling.

In any case, you seem a bit touchy about all this, even when I try to joke, so consider the subject dropped.

 

[Black_Bunny]

you seem a bit touchy about all this, even when I try to joke, so consider the subject dropped.

It's just that in text, the 'joking' comes across as sarcasm and bragging. I'm sure if this conversation were verbal, we'd be fine

 

[00Syd]

Off topic Q: how many people here have taken a self-defense class, and I don't mean the BS kind with the guy in padding where they teach you how strong you really are in a fight?

(raises hand)

I did when I was about 14, but I only remember one thing from it.

 

[Netzach]

well if that thing was "evade at the first opportunity" you got something of use.

 

[00Syd]

(And I know that this is sort of a side discussion with less relevance than self-defense, but...)

As far as cat-calls go, man, I can't find any rhyme or reason to them. I can be wearing my most modest outfit, walking hand in hand with my boyfriend and still have guys yelling "hey baby" out of their car as they drive by. Or that (less-literal) drive by cat-call thing where you're walking down the street and you see a guy walking towards you and obviously checking you out, and then just as you're about to pass each other, he swoops in way too close, invades your personal bubble, and then says "hey girl" or something like that. That's the one that pisses me off the most.

But, yeah. I have never found that wearing something longer as opposed to shorter, or baggier as opposed to tighter, or whether or not I am already walking with a guy, affects how much I get hit on by dudes on the street.

Man, even in the winter when I'm wearing my big, bulky, practically-shapeless winter coat, I still get hit on. So, I am convinced that wearing sweats or a skirt makes absolutely no difference.

 

[00Syd]

well if that thing was "evade at the first opportunity" you got something of use.

Well, I knew that without having to take a class to learn it.

The thing I remember from my class was if some dude has you pinned on your stomach, make sure to raise one leg, and then when they try to get on you, switch your legs, shooting one down and the other up, and it will push him off of you.

Don't know if that would actually work, though.

 

[laceandcogs]

I don't get hit on as much as other women. I consider myself to be of relatively average attractiveness, and I'm not unfriendly, but I learned long ago that the biggest mistake women make is trying to be nicer than they need to be.

To paraphrase "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin de Becker (an excellent book, try it), women who are victimized are selected because they try to be sweet, be sociable, not to come across as a "bitch". Sociopaths who target women for rape, abuse, or just a little mindfuck do so with an excellent knowledge of how to coach and guide the reactions of their victims. Women are nice, even to men they don't know and who do not deserve or earn their kindness, because we are socially conditioned to believe that it's our job to be nice.

Part of moving safely through the world is recognizing that you present an image, and that you control that image. I have learned to present, in public, an exterior of control, self-containment, awareness, and resolve. I'm not a witch, I don't kick puppies out of my path or knock down kids who ride their trikes too close. But I control the depth and tone of my interactions with men, and I make sure that they notice the straight spine, the closed core, and the available, ready hands just as much as they notice the length of my skirt or the give of my sweater.

Next time a man cat-calls you, ladies, try this. Stop, turn around so that you face him with your entire body, look him in the eye, and say "Excuse me, I don't think I heard you. What was that?" Keep your face just shy of a smile, and raise a brow like you're really interested in the answer. Obviously, this technique is only advisable in daylight, on more populated streets, or while you're in a safe group. But you'd be amazed how many of these pricks shrivel up and walk off when confronted.