What is feminism?

[Stella_Omega]

Considering that ivantheterrible is posting about these shared goals in the BDSM site, I have some general speculations about what those shared goals were, and what direction his ex-wife's changes took.

 

[midwestyankee]

Considering that ivantheterrible is posting about these shared goals in the BDSM site, I have some general speculations about what those shared goals were, and what direction his ex-wife's changes took.

Hmmm....hell hath no fury like a dominant spurned?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Hmmm....hell hath no fury like a dominant spurned?

GODDAMMIT I WAS GOING TO FINISH MED SCHOOL WHILE SHE SUPPORTED ME! AND THEN SHE WAS GOING TO HAVE BABIES AND I WAS GOING TO TAKE CARE OF HER! WE WERE GOING TO BUILD OUR OWN COMPOUND! SHE LOOKED UP TO ME DAMMIT!

*cough* shouting makes my throat sore, I keep forgetting.

 

[midwestyankee]

GODDAMMIT I WAS GOING TO FINISH MED SCHOOL WHILE SHE SUPPORTED ME! AND THEN SHE WAS GOING TO HAVE BABIES AND I WAS GOING TO TAKE CARE OF HER! WE WERE GOING TO BUILD OUR OWN COMPOUND! SHE LOOKED UP TO ME DAMMIT!

*cough* shouting makes my throat sore, I keep forgetting.

I wonder if this would have as much bite if you substituted Lincoln Automotive Tech for "med school."

 

[Stella_Omega]

I wonder if this would have as much bite if you substituted Lincoln Automotive Tech for "med school."

I was trying to be nice!

 

[teknight]

Just as happy people don't cheat, solid, happy relationships cannot be "ruined" by a single individual. You can spew all the rhetoric at me you want but it ain't going to make me leave my husband.

BTW, with hubby and me, our mutual/individual goals have changed numerous times over the 12+ years we've been together. Sometimes they are in harmony, sometimes they conflict but because we have a firm base we have learned to adapt, make concessions, bend, reshape, etc, as necessary.

But we both understand that there could come a time when the things we want/need are so drastically different that being together would be impossible. I hope this doesn't happen but I'm pragmatic, humans are changeable, fluid creatures...your ex-wife being a good example of this.

*standing ovation from the tek section*

 

[teknight]

I realize I'm late to this party, but it's never too late to say: "Sample sizes of one are awesome." Feel free to substitute dumb for awesome in the previous phrase.

 

[Keroin]

*standing ovation from the tek section*

Aw...shucks.

Just writing from experience...which gives me an idea...

 

[Keroin]

Interesting.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Interesting.

You know... a locker room ought to be a little more private. It was one thing back in the day when one or two reporters knew the guys well enough to be invited back, but then it became journalists prerogative to be there-- and, at the same time, the number of journalists increased by hundreds.

I think any owner or coach that placed strong limits on locker room access would be loved like a much loved thing by his players.

 

[JMohegan]

Male reporters should be permitted in female athletes' locker rooms. Goose, gander, whatnot.

Otherwise, all reporters should wait the fuck outside, regardless of gender.

 

[Tabea]

There is currently a rape trial going on here in Germany. A Swiss weatherman and moderator, Jörg Kachelmann, is accused of raping his long time girl friend while holding a knife to her throat.

Some articles about it:
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2019189,00.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE68C3FP20100913

The case has caused a huge media frenzy. According to some reports the woman contradicted herself in her statement and some experts believe she is lying, some think she is telling the truth. There have been reports that a former girl friend is now also saying she was raped by him when she was 18.

Right now it is impossible to know what really happened.

I’ve been surprised by the comments on news sites. Most of the people who comment seem completely sure of Kachelmann’s innocence.
The reasons given are manifold:
- He is a nice guy.
- Rape in a relationship is not possible.
- He seems to have had multiple girl friends at the same time and was quite popular with women, because of that he didn’t need to rape anybody.
- Women often claim rape at the end of a relationship to get revenge.


What do you think about all this?
Is rape in a relationship possible?
How common is it for women to wrongly accuse men of rape?

 

[Etoile]

I don't have any numbers, but I would imagine not very many rapes are falsely reported. There are definitely lots that go completely unreported, though.

 

[Homburg]

Is rape in a relationship possible?

Absolutely. A relationship does not somehow convey blanket consent to any and every activity.

How common is it for women to wrongly accuse men of rape?

No clue. No way to even really find those numbers out or even really guess.

 

[Primalex]

I’ve been surprised by the comments on news sites. Most of the people who comment seem completely sure of Kachelmann’s innocence.
The reasons given are manifold:
- He is a nice guy.
- Rape in a relationship is not possible.
- He seems to have had multiple girl friends at the same time and was quite popular with women, because of that he didn’t need to rape anybody.
- Women often claim rape at the end of a relationship to get revenge.

a) There is no "heated debate whether rape in a relationship is possible.", like the quote says in the Time article. And I have yet to see a comment that would claim something else.

b) One of the most important reasons is that the rape accuse came up shortly after she learned that he had "cheated" on her for years.

c) She had to correct her testimony several times because certain things were physically impossible.

How common is it for women to wrongly accuse men of rape?

According to Linda Fairstein about 50% of the accusations.

 

[Etoile]

Okay, this wasn't really a hard google. I don't know where Linda Fairstein got that number of 50%, because a wide variety of sources quote very different numbers.

CrimProf Blog (citing a rape crisis center) - 2%
Slate - 8-10%
The Forensic Examiner (citing "unfounded" only which includes non-provable AND made-up) - 8-15%
Salon (citing the FBI, "unfounded" again) - 9%
Fox News - 25%
Angry Harry's Blog Guide to Feminist Nonsense - 45%

 

[Tabea]

a) There is no "heated debate whether rape in a relationship is possible.", like the quote says in the Time article. And I have yet to see a comment that would claim something else.

I've seen quite a few comments stating that rape is not possible in a relationship.
Because there is so much about the case on the internet now, it is very difficult to search for anything.
But I found a few comments:
http://forum.spiegel.de/showthread.php?t=18647&page=39
comments number 382, 204 and 49
http://annewill.blog.ndr.de/2010/07/30/justiz-alltag-oder-promi-pranger/?cp=1
comment number 16

It is not the most frequently given reason for his innocence. That women lie in those situations seems the most popular reason.

b) One of the most important reasons is that the rape accuse came up shortly after she learned that he had "cheated" on her for years.

According to her they had a row because of this and the row lead to her rape.

Why did you put cheated in quotation marks?
It seems pretty well established now that he had several relationships at the same time and did not tell the women about this.

c) She had to correct her testimony several times because certain things were physically impossible.

Some experts say this is due to trauma.

According to Linda Fairstein about 50% of the accusations.

Do you think this number is correct?


And do you believe Kachelmann is innocent?

 

[rinka]

There is currently a rape trial going on here in Germany. A Swiss weatherman and moderator, Jörg Kachelmann, is accused of raping his long time girl friend while holding a knife to her throat.

Some articles about it:
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2019189,00.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE68C3FP20100913

The case has caused a huge media frenzy. According to some reports the woman contradicted herself in her statement and some experts believe she is lying, some think she is telling the truth. There have been reports that a former girl friend is now also saying she was raped by him when she was 18.

Right now it is impossible to know what really happened.

I’ve been surprised by the comments on news sites. Most of the people who comment seem completely sure of Kachelmann’s innocence.
The reasons given are manifold:
- He is a nice guy.
- Rape in a relationship is not possible.
- He seems to have had multiple girl friends at the same time and was quite popular with women, because of that he didn’t need to rape anybody.
- Women often claim rape at the end of a relationship to get revenge.


What do you think about all this?
Is rape in a relationship possible?
How common is it for women to wrongly accuse men of rape?

I know nothing about this case or these people and I didn't read the links, but the bolded part is so typical and so upsetting. The tendency to believe that attractive, successful or charming guys couldn't rape cause they don't need to. It's an assumption based on the notion that rape is about sex, not power.

It also reflects a really primal view of men and their sexuality. As if men can't help raping women if they can't get consensual sex, but if they do they don't need to. In short that men are not in control of their sexual needs. The same attitude that is reflected in judging women for what they wear if they would be sexually assaulted.

As a women and feminist this pisses me off because it somehow absolves men of responsibility. But it should piss men off even more since it suggests that they are to a high degree controlled by their penises.

 

[Keroin]

Also interesting.

So often it comes back to dress. Hm.

 

[00Syd]

Also interesting.

So often it comes back to dress. Hm.

I'm taking a class this semester called "Dress Codes" and I imagine that there will be a lot of discussion about the way women have been expected to dress through the twentieth century. Already, judging by some of the comments made by some of my classmates (who are mostly freshmen), not everyone is going to understand the feminist implications of what we are studying. I am foreseeing much frustration in my immediate future.

 

[Keroin]

I'm taking a class this semester called "Dress Codes" and I imagine that there will be a lot of discussion about the way women have been expected to dress through the twentieth century. Already, judging by some of the comments made by some of my classmates (who are mostly freshmen), not everyone is going to understand the feminist implications of what we are studying. I am foreseeing much frustration in my immediate future.

Oooo...you have my sympathy there.

Dress fascinates me. I guess I'm too much of a pragmatist and see clothes as mainly functional. I literally wear the same pair of pants and the same three t-shirts all the time...I mean, like seven days a week. I rarely consider what kind of "message" I'm sending through my clothes.

(Probably: Hey, I'm lazy!)

But I remember sitting at a busy conference a few years back, watching the crowds go by and wondering what kind of statement they were trying to make with their wardrobe. Because this was a public function and most people were trying to get noticed in some way, I assumed their outfits would be a selling feature, as well. (Yes, I was wearing the same pair of pants and one of the three t-shirts, lol). Perhaps this wasn't the case but I did very much get the sense that for these people their clothes were a form of advertisement. "I'm fun!", "I'm artsy!", "I'm serious.", etc, etc.

When it comes to women, I think the advertisement aspect gets murkier and often misinterpreted. What a woman might wear that she sees as "I'm sexy!" is often translated as "I'm easy!", which are two very different messages.

Anyway, I find it interesting.

 

[00Syd]

Oooo...you have my sympathy there.

Dress fascinates me. I guess I'm too much of a pragmatist and see clothes as mainly functional. I literally wear the same pair of pants and the same three t-shirts all the time...I mean, like seven days a week. I rarely consider what kind of "message" I'm sending through my clothes.

(Probably: Hey, I'm lazy!)

But I remember sitting at a busy conference a few years back, watching the crowds go by and wondering what kind of statement they were trying to make with their wardrobe. Because this was a public function and most people were trying to get noticed in some way, I assumed their outfits would be a selling feature, as well. (Yes, I was wearing the same pair of pants and one of the three t-shirts, lol). Perhaps this wasn't the case but I did very much get the sense that for these people their clothes were a form of advertisement. "I'm fun!", "I'm artsy!", "I'm serious.", etc, etc.

When it comes to women, I think the advertisement aspect gets murkier and often misinterpreted. What a woman might wear that she sees as "I'm sexy!" is often translated as "I'm easy!", which are two very different messages.

Anyway, I find it interesting.

I find it interesting, too. I'll let you know if anything super fantastically interesting gets brought up in class, which might actually be possible, since the professor (who is a 60 year old southern belle-type) seems really open to all sorts of crazy ideas about gender and sexuality and whatnot.

 

[Primalex]

I've seen quite a few comments stating that rape is not possible in a relationship.
Because there is so much about the case on the internet now, it is very difficult to search for anything.
But I found a few comments:
http://forum.spiegel.de/showthread.php?t=18647&page=39
comments number 382, 204 and 49

Well, I admit that my German is a bit outdated by now, but nobody writes there that rape in a relationship is not possible. The argument is:
"He was visiting for sex and she was expecting exactly this, a visit for sex. What would be the purpose of the rape then?"

Why did you put cheated in quotation marks?

Because I have trouble to label this as relationship. She was a friend with benefits. It's sad that she didn't figure this out on her own.

Do you think this number is correct?

I think the number is correct, it is of course important how you count though. If you count those cases where someone was sentenced although innocent, then we are for sure not by 50%. But if you count those cases where the claimant changes her mind, maybe already before the very first official testimony and include those claims, that don't even become official (i.e. those women that just spread malicious rumors without the attempt to seek legal prosecution in the first place), then I can imagine this number to be correct, yes.

And do you believe Kachelmann is innocent?

*shrugs* I really don't have an opinion. Throw a coin for me. I understand those who think he is innocent and I understand those who think the opposite.

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. It was not as much rape as she makes the people believe and it was not as consensual as he makes the people believe. I have done enough non-consensual and knife play stuff to have my qualms with her description of the events. And I believe her enough to not just label it as pure revenge.

 

[Stella_Omega]

That dress code article, hum.

Someone in the comments claims that Ms Bil is doing this to manipulate;
http://pluck.vancouversun.com/ver1.0/gocomm?ck=CommentKey:4f61a8c0-950b-494d-aaf6-055b6358e8c1

Dunno if it's true or not.

 

[JMohegan]

I’ve been surprised by the comments on news sites. Most of the people who comment seem completely sure of Kachelmann’s innocence.
The reasons given are manifold:
- He is a nice guy.
- Rape in a relationship is not possible.
- He seems to have had multiple girl friends at the same time and was quite popular with women, because of that he didn’t need to rape anybody.
- Women often claim rape at the end of a relationship to get revenge.

I know nothing about this case or these people and I didn't read the links, but the bolded part is so typical and so upsetting. The tendency to believe that attractive, successful or charming guys couldn't rape cause they don't need to. It's an assumption based on the notion that rape is about sex, not power.

It also reflects a really primal view of men and their sexuality. As if men can't help raping women if they can't get consensual sex, but if they do they don't need to. In short that men are not in control of their sexual needs. The same attitude that is reflected in judging women for what they wear if they would be sexually assaulted.

As a women and feminist this pisses me off because it somehow absolves men of responsibility. But it should piss men off even more since it suggests that they are to a high degree controlled by their penises.

There are many kinds of rapists. Regardless of type, the line between rapist/not a rapist is determined by social conditioning and the strength of the superego.

Great popularity with women sometimes fosters both a sense of entitlement and an amplified sense of personal power, the combination of which can erode the social conditioning needed to hold oneself in check.

I'm not saying that all popular guys become rapists. Just pointing out that the causality may actually work in the other direction.