What is feminism?

[graceanne]

Sounds like it. My mother is a fairly textbook case herself, and my grandmother doubly so. The problem with narcissists is they're rarely diagnosed because, hey, there's nothing wrong with them. They don't need therapy. It's you that has the problem.

/bitterness

And when they do get diagnosed they won't accept help because they still don't think they have a problem.

With your mom I wonder if she became narcissistic as a defense against her grandma's narcissism. And then I wonder about your grandma's mom. Not that it really matters, people need to take responsibility for themselves. It's just that, in my case, my father was (I'm pretty sure) a narcissist. There is no one else in our family like that, so I kinda wondered where it came from. Then I added some stuff together. Like, my grandma lost a baby 24 hours after he was born about a year and a half after my father was born. My grandpa was told to not let her talk or think about it so she was never allowed to properly grieve (eventually that tore their marriage apart) and the doctor also told my grandpa to get her pregnant asap. Ten months after my uncle died my aunt was born. Suffice it to say I sincerely doubt my grandma was emotionally available AT ALL to my dad, and I wonder if his narcissism was a protective barrier he developed to protect himself.

Sorry, little side wandering. I don't use it as an excuse for him, but it definitely makes you understand a bit why he was the way he was.

 

[BiBunny]

And when they do get diagnosed they won't accept help because they still don't think they have a problem.

With your mom I wonder if she became narcissistic as a defense against her grandma's narcissism. And then I wonder about your grandma's mom. Not that it really matters, people need to take responsibility for themselves. It's just that, in my case, my father was (I'm pretty sure) a narcissist. There is no one else in our family like that, so I kinda wondered where it came from. Then I added some stuff together. Like, my grandma lost a baby 24 hours after he was born about a year and a half after my father was born. My grandpa was told to not let her talk or think about it so she was never allowed to properly grieve (eventually that tore their marriage apart) and the doctor also told my grandpa to get her pregnant asap. Ten months after my uncle died my aunt was born. Suffice it to say I sincerely doubt my grandma was emotionally available AT ALL to my dad, and I wonder if his narcissism was a protective barrier he developed to protect himself.

Sorry, little side wandering. I don't use it as an excuse for him, but it definitely makes you understand a bit why he was the way he was.

Yep, I'm sure my mother is the way she is because she never learned anything else when she was still young enough that her personality was mold-able. I catch myself behaving that way more often than I'd like to admit, and I know it's because it's all I ever knew for years and years. Unlike them, though, once I realize what I've done, I go out of my way to set things right again.

 

[graceanne]

Yep, I'm sure my mother is the way she is because she never learned anything else when she was still young enough that her personality was mold-able. I catch myself behaving that way more often than I'd like to admit, and I know it's because it's all I ever knew for years and years. Unlike them, though, once I realize what I've done, I go out of my way to set things right again.

That's cause you're not a narcissist, you're just fighting learned behaviors. Behavior is a habit, like anything else, and you'll fall back into behavioral norms if you aren't careful. Like me and cussing like a sailor, or my mom and temper tantrums.

 

[teknight]

That's cause you're not a narcissist, you're just fighting learned behaviors. Behavior is a habit, like anything else, and you'll fall back into behavioral norms if you aren't careful. Like me and cussing like a sailor, or my mom and temper tantrums.

It's not just behavior. There are also neuro-correlates: abnormal brain structures, "weird" levels of neurotransmitters. Granted, some of this can stem from learned behavior, but we're not blank slates.

 

[graceanne]

It's not just behavior. There are also neuro-correlates: abnormal brain structures, "weird" levels of neurotransmitters. Granted, some of this can stem from learned behavior, but we're not blank slates.

I didn't say we're blank slates. Lord you can read stuff into what I say that isn't there better than anyone on this forum. Here's an idea; read the black stuff you don't know me well enough to read between the lines. And I'm not going to get into a detailed conversation with you on a small comment. Chill out. Seriously. You are really annoying me.

 

[teknight]

I didn't say we're blank slates. Lord you can read stuff into what I say that isn't there better than anyone on this forum. Here's an idea; read the black stuff you don't know me well enough to read between the lines. And I'm not going to get into a detailed conversation with you on a small comment. Chill out. Seriously. You are really annoying me.

I apologize if it sounded like that's what I said. I was trying to contribute beyond what you'd said, but I guess I sounded like I was correcting you. Again, not my intention.

 

[graceanne]

I apologize if it sounded like that's what I said. I was trying to contribute beyond what you'd said, but I guess I sounded like I was correcting you. Again, not my intention.

Ok, it sounded to me like you were nitpicking me. Sorry for coming down on you like that.

In the spirit of how you mean it:

I don't think everything is nurture anymore than I think everything is nature. I believe that parts of your personality are genetic, just like the color of your eyes. But I also believe that you CAN break that cycle by keeping in mind that your family tends toward whichever fault, and constantly forcing yourself to do it differently. Like in the case of BB - she knows that extreme selfishness is a part of her genetic makeup, and watches herself very carefully and when she realizes she's done that or is doing it she goes out of her way to rectify the situation.

 

[teknight]

Ok, it sounded to me like you were nitpicking me. Sorry for coming down on you like that.

In the spirit of how you mean it:

I don't think everything is nurture anymore than I think everything is nature. I believe that parts of your personality are genetic, just like the color of your eyes. But I also believe that you CAN break that cycle by keeping in mind that your family tends toward whichever fault, and constantly forcing yourself to do it differently. Like in the case of BB - she knows that extreme selfishness is a part of her genetic makeup, and watches herself very carefully and when she realizes she's done that or is doing it she goes out of her way to rectify the situation.

And that must be damn hard to do, but kudos!

Am I to take it that I killed feminism? (or, you know, the thread on it?)
If so, I accept my rewards in the form of Saudi Oil Fields.

 

[Cinner]

You guys should take this discussion over to The Playground.

 

[satindesire]

You guys should take this discussion over to The Playground.

*blink* Why?

 

[KoPilot]

A few days ago my father told me that he believed not only that women shouldn't bother with jobs and should just marry a man with lots of money so she can stay at home and have his children, but that we are biologically wired to be happier that way, and that the feminist movement of empowering women (specifically in the workplace) has misguided many otherwise perfectly good females.

It makes me feel icky.

 

[00Syd]

A few days ago my father told me that he believed not only that women shouldn't bother with jobs and should just marry a man with lots of money so she can stay at home and have his children, but that we are biologically wired to be happier that way, and that the feminist movement of empowering women (specifically in the workplace) has misguided many otherwise perfectly good females.

It makes me feel icky.

Ugh! Every once in a while someone who I think is smart, who I otherwise respect, will say something pretty sexist, and it always surprises me, and makes me feel a little icky.

 

[fuckmeat]

So... feminism.

I haven't read the whole thread, but it's a very interesting discussion.

I think that certain things will always be skewed in men's favour, if we're talking about hetero Mr and Mrs average. Men have freedom over whether they have kids but also, they have freedom over whether to stick around and raise them. I agree that good fathers who want custody should be considered equally but the reality remains that most aren't interested in being lone parents. Overwhelmingly, women who are single parents were left with no choice about that, they guy left. I believe absolutely that most women have a bond with their kids that most guys can't comprehend. Women sacrifice a huge deal for their kids. A guy's earning potential isn't really affected by his status as a husband or father, lone parenting being the obvious but rare exception. A guy can progress along his chosen career path and enjoy relative affluence in comparison with a woman who either relies on the husband - meaning she pays nothing into the state system and can expect little out of it when the chips are down - or is forced to remain a lone parent on welfare until her kids reach a certain age. Yes, there are women who break this cycle and everyone makes their own luck, but guys have a much greater degree of personal choice than women and I think they forget that at times.

There are unfair divorces where the husband is ripped off but even if things are split equally for justifiable reasons, the lone mother is always left at a huge disadvantage to the born again bachelor. Maintenance payments do not begin to bridge that gap and maintenance payments should not be considered by men as justification not to trouble themselves with actually being committed fathers to their children.

On average, women in first world nations live longer than men but are much poorer, particularly when it comes to retirement. Men who are married live longer than bachelors but women who are married have shorter lifespans than singletons.

When it comes to personal safety, men and women live in two completely different worlds. Example: My brother, who's living with me at the moment, went on a night out with friends the other day. They went to a bar and then to a club playing metal music. They got separated and after a thorough search of the club he realised he was alone. He got chatting to a group of people and accepted an invitation back to their place once the club closed at 2am. He got in a cab with them and went to their place, where he smoked some pot and promptly threw up on their carpet. Embarrassed, he left, at 3am with no clue where he was. He walked until he stumbled on a main road, then began making his way home. He got fed up with the main road and took a riverside footpath. Fatigue set in and exhausted, he fell asleep on a bench for a few hours. He crawled in through my front door at about 7am, with a deep cut to his leg that he has no memory of acquiring and bruising to his back. He considered that to be a good night.

Completely. Different. World.

One of my own policies is never to wear my uniform outside work. I get more hassle from walking around in my nursing tunic and trousers than I do when dressed up for a night out. I could probably take to the street naked and cause less of a stir. I feel intimidated walking around in my work clothes, something I deeply resent. It's not even as though I wear a dress. If I'm going out for the evening, I'll wear something half practical, always with costume jewellery, nothing worth mugging me for. I have a clubber's purse strapped to my wrist and emergency taxi cash in my bra (not only so I don't have a purseful of notes but so I don't forget myself and overspend). I don't show too much flesh, regardless of who I'm out with, it just makes me feel vulnerable, something I don't like. I always stick close to my friends and I have local taxi numbers in my phone. I drink from bottles and try not to leave a drink unattended unless it's with friends. I never accept drinks from strangers. Me and my girls know that we arrive and leave together, none of us would dream of hooking up with someone or abandoning the group. We all crash at the same place, so we don't have to worry about getting people safely home to different ones. We have fun but we're vigilant. If a bar gets too crowded or raucous, we move on. We usually visit the toilets in pairs. There are so many precautions that I take as a matter of course now that I couldn't even list them all here and still, I've had a few very near misses in terms of violence and sexual assault from men. I simply don't live in the same world that my brother does. No amount of equality promoting legislation will change that.

ok, I think I've waffled enough for now.

 

[Keroin]

Ugh! Every once in a while someone who I think is smart, who I otherwise respect, will say something pretty sexist, and it always surprises me, and makes me feel a little icky.

I know! At a dinner party one time, a man I liked and respected made a comment about how terrible it would be to have a female president because for a week every month she'd be crazy. Almost fell out of my chair I was so shocked.

I've never looked at him the same since.

Ick.

 

[Keroin]

One of my own policies is never to wear my uniform outside work. I get more hassle from walking around in my nursing tunic and trousers than I do when dressed up for a night out. I could probably take to the street naked and cause less of a stir. I feel intimidated walking around in my work clothes, something I deeply resent. It's not even as though I wear a dress. If I'm going out for the evening, I'll wear something half practical, always with costume jewellery, nothing worth mugging me for. I have a clubber's purse strapped to my wrist and emergency taxi cash in my bra (not only so I don't have a purseful of notes but so I don't forget myself and overspend). I don't show too much flesh, regardless of who I'm out with, it just makes me feel vulnerable, something I don't like. I always stick close to my friends and I have local taxi numbers in my phone. I drink from bottles and try not to leave a drink unattended unless it's with friends. I never accept drinks from strangers. Me and my girls know that we arrive and leave together, none of us would dream of hooking up with someone or abandoning the group. We all crash at the same place, so we don't have to worry about getting people safely home to different ones. We have fun but we're vigilant. If a bar gets too crowded or raucous, we move on. We usually visit the toilets in pairs. There are so many precautions that I take as a matter of course now that I couldn't even list them all here and still, I've had a few very near misses in terms of violence and sexual assault from men. I simply don't live in the same world that my brother does. No amount of equality promoting legislation will change that.

Yep. Not that I do the bar thing anymore, but it's nice to see I am not the only paranoid here.

 

[KoPilot]

Ugh! Every once in a while someone who I think is smart, who I otherwise respect, will say something pretty sexist, and it always surprises me, and makes me feel a little icky.

I honestly feel betrayed, because I've been extremely close to my father my entire life, and he's always been there to support me going to school, wanting to get a good job, finding the right guy and not have kids.

Except now I know that deep down, he doesn't.

 

[00Syd]

I honestly feel betrayed, because I've been extremely close to my father my entire life, and he's always been there to support me going to school, wanting to get a good job, finding the right guy and not have kids.

Except now I know that deep down, he doesn't.

That's really tough

 

[Stella_Omega]

I honestly feel betrayed, because I've been extremely close to my father my entire life, and he's always been there to support me going to school, wanting to get a good job, finding the right guy and not have kids.

Except now I know that deep down, he doesn't.

Sounds like he's getting older, to me.

 

[fuckmeat]

I honestly feel betrayed, because I've been extremely close to my father my entire life, and he's always been there to support me going to school, wanting to get a good job, finding the right guy and not have kids.

Except now I know that deep down, he doesn't.

You don't know what his motivation is here, he may not mean it exactly as it sounds. It could be that he would like grandchildren and is becoming resigned to the fact you're not interested in a family. He may also worry that focusing on your career will leave you one day regretting not having had kids. It's not right and it's not fair but that doesn't necessarily mean he genuinely frowns on your life choices.

 

[PertPerth]

I honestly feel betrayed, because I've been extremely close to my father my entire life, and he's always been there to support me going to school, wanting to get a good job, finding the right guy and not have kids.

Except now I know that deep down, he doesn't.

I had a similar experience with my Dad not long ago. I was given the "you do what you have to do" talk. I couldn't help but cry afterwards.
Of course, my Mum has always been worse - pusing me to "marry for money" and being very open about her jealousy that I have choices and a career.

Unfortunately, I've just found out (3 weeks ago) that my ovarian reserve is very low (I'm 31) and it's likely I'm going to go into menapoause early. My GP was lovely when breaking the news to me - she was saying that it's okay to have a baby as a single mum, and she has referred me to a fertility specialist. The thing is, I still want the old-fashioned love-> marriage -> babies scenario; but it seems now that I don't have time to wait for that any longer. I know that I'd break my parents hearts if I were to go and have a baby now, by myself.

As for the Nature-Nurture debate - I have quite a bit to say on the matter as I'm an adoptee. We are definitely born with genetic traits, but depending on the environment and life experiences we have, they grow in different ways. We are all individuals and we all have choices. It's a very interesting topic to explore.

 

[fuckmeat]

I had a similar experience with my Dad not long ago. I was given the "you do what you have to do" talk. I couldn't help but cry afterwards.
Of course, my Mum has always been worse - pusing me to "marry for money" and being very open about her jealousy that I have choices and a career.

Unfortunately, I've just found out (3 weeks ago) that my ovarian reserve is very low (I'm 31) and it's likely I'm going to go into menapoause early. My GP was lovely when breaking the news to me - she was saying that it's okay to have a baby as a single mum, and she has referred me to a fertility specialist. The thing is, I still want the old-fashioned love-> marriage -> babies scenario; but it seems now that I don't have time to wait for that any longer. I know that I'd break my parents hearts if I were to go and have a baby now, by myself.

As for the Nature-Nurture debate - I have quite a bit to say on the matter as I'm an adoptee. We are definitely born with genetic traits, but depending on the environment and life experiences we have, they grow in different ways. We are all individuals and we all have choices. It's a very interesting topic to explore.

There are lots of ways around your problem. You can have some of your eggs frozen so that one day, when the time is right, a surrogate could carry your child. If you're really lucky, a good friend who sympathises with your predicament could do this for you, if you make sure her medical costs and other expenses are covered.

There's always adoption to consider. And sometimes you can find options that you would never have thought existed.

I know of a woman who traded with a gay male couple. She used their sperm and they implanted one of her fertilised eggs in one of the guys' sister. Now they're like an extended family and take the siblings out together. They were in my local paper not too long ago.

 

[KoPilot]

You don't know what his motivation is here, he may not mean it exactly as it sounds. It could be that he would like grandchildren and is becoming resigned to the fact you're not interested in a family. He may also worry that focusing on your career will leave you one day regretting not having had kids. It's not right and it's not fair but that doesn't necessarily mean he genuinely frowns on your life choices.

He sent a book on the subject to his sister several years ago, who is a VERY hardworking New Yorker who runs her own business and only recently got married at the age of about 35. She was absolutely horrified by the ideas presented in the book, and had actually sat me down to make sure that my father wasn't telling me these things. As I had no idea that it was actually along the lines of what he believed, we came to the conclusion that she'd just received the wrong book and forgot about it. Until, now that is.

I don't think it has as much to do with having kids as it sounds. He's never said anything about being a grandfather, ever. More just pressuring me to have them because that's just how things are supposed to be.

The whole debate was in response to this article, actually: http://www.good.is/post/girls-think-they-re-smarter-than-boys

I sent it to him for some chuckles and perhaps a "Hmm!" But he got back to me with an essay instead. :\

 

[KoPilot]

I had a similar experience with my Dad not long ago. I was given the "you do what you have to do" talk. I couldn't help but cry afterwards.
Of course, my Mum has always been worse - pusing me to "marry for money" and being very open about her jealousy that I have choices and a career.

Unfortunately, I've just found out (3 weeks ago) that my ovarian reserve is very low (I'm 31) and it's likely I'm going to go into menapoause early. My GP was lovely when breaking the news to me - she was saying that it's okay to have a baby as a single mum, and she has referred me to a fertility specialist. The thing is, I still want the old-fashioned love-> marriage -> babies scenario; but it seems now that I don't have time to wait for that any longer. I know that I'd break my parents hearts if I were to go and have a baby now, by myself.

As for the Nature-Nurture debate - I have quite a bit to say on the matter as I'm an adoptee. We are definitely born with genetic traits, but depending on the environment and life experiences we have, they grow in different ways. We are all individuals and we all have choices. It's a very interesting topic to explore.

Oh dear. There's nothing like wanting kids and then realizing that there are things making it more complicated for you to have any than a majority of other women in your age range.

Some people just don't understand that the times, they are a-changin'.

 

[KoPilot]

Sounds like he's getting older, to me.

God, he is getting nuttier with age.

And to think that he used to be in a band and worked at a photo lab while my mom worked the real job to support his music career. Or should I say "music habit"?

 

[satindesire]

I always feel a strong pang of sympathy and love for women who want to get married and have kids and just haven't met the right person yet. Feeling such a strong longing for that completion of your dreams has a pull like a black hole.