What is feminism?

[DVS]

I'm just confused as to HOW a 'catcall' can be -respectful- to a woman.

I've been the recipient of many MANY catcalls and they -always- piss me off. They're disgusting and disrespectful. If you think I'm beautiful, don't shout from a rooftop you've been hammering shingles into that I've got a nice ass.

Fucking pigs. GRRR!!!!!

If you are referring to my post about cat calls, I understand. But remember, this was in the 70s and I'm sure the social conscience has changed a lot since then.

I should also add that we didn't talk to any groups of women, just single women walking alone. We didn't want to single out one woman in a group and not say something nice about those she was with. We might have had more resistance from a group because people feel safer to speak out in numbers, but the single women didn't seem bothered by it. I always saw smiles on their faces, even if they said nothing.

 

[Keroin]

I think it is strange that company didn't hire you, if all you did was to drive a car and write reports. But, if you were out on the city streets, maybe they were concerned you might be too vulnerable to the outside world.

The job that my boyfriend did was to drive to commercial buildings, circle the building while in the car, shine a flashlight around to make sure everything was cool, then fill out his paperwork to say that he was at _______ company at ____ o'clock and everything was A OK. Then he'd drive off to the next building. He did a loop, checking each building two or three times during his shift.

There were other types of jobs in that company. Women were allowed to do some of them but they did not pay as well.

The irony of this was that my waitressing job involved me spending 8 hours in a room filled with second hand smoke. Dangerous? Hello?

 

[Stella_Omega]

If you are referring to my post about cat calls, I understand. But remember, this was in the 70s and I'm sure the social conscience has changed a lot since then.

I should also add that we didn't talk to any groups of women, just single women walking alone. We didn't want to single out one woman in a group and not say something nice about those she was with. We might have had more resistance from a group because people feel safer to speak out in numbers, but the single women didn't seem bothered by it. I always saw smiles on their faces, even if they said nothing.

Much easier to smile than to take offense. Just ask anyone who finds themselves in a vulnerable position.

But aside from that, there is a HUGE difference in the ways a catcall can be given. I have had friendly, genuinely complimentary comments from strangers, that did not anger me at all, but made me feel validated and connected-- not to mention incredibly sexy or good-looking, or whatever.

I've heard comments that were nothing but hateful, or slimy or downright scary.

And I also remember leaning on a hoarding, watching construction guys at work--- until their sideways glances and body language made me realize that I had embarrassed them with my regard!

 

[Homburg]

Is this the video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgahDezNBqA

Yup. About 30 seconds in, Dan shoots, and Gracie sucks him into the Guard. From there on, he basically controls the match (going from memory, as I didn't have time to watch the whole video.)

The Guard is a great way to tie somebody up, confound them, and exhaust them. Not the safest thing to do to a rapist, but if you aren't of the "Lay back and think of England" school of thought, it is a damned good move to learn and practice.

--

but they are also kind of an "elite" group. As such, when they come fresh out of training they can be pretty freaking arrogant.

Yeah, I can see that. I've dealt with more than a few "elite" types in my life.

 

[JMohegan]

Yup. About 30 seconds in, Dan shoots, and Gracie sucks him into the Guard. From there on, he basically controls the match (going from memory, as I didn't have time to watch the whole video.)

That's the most homoerotic thing I've seen since I watched a video of men kissing, that ITW put up way back when.

Which is saying something, considering that my niece insisted that I watch Gaga's Alejandro a few days ago.

 

[00Syd]

I can think of a handful of times when strangers said things to me on the street that I took as genuinely flattering or complimentary, but the vast majority of cat-calls turn my stomach.

For some reason the type of catcall I get most often involves seriously invading my personal space, getting much, much too close for comfort, like the drive by catcall that I mentioned earlier, which involves walking towards me as though about to normally pass me on the street, but at the last moment swerving so that they pass me with maybe an inch to spare, and say something like "hey girl," often in a whiper, right into my ear. This sort of thing makes me just shudder in disgust and will often make me incredibly angry that these people feel they have the right to invade my space like that.

The only times I've ever felt like actually confronting someone (and maybe punching someone in the face) is when I've been called like a dog. I've had guys, as I walk past, literally make that smoochy sound that you make who you're calling a dog, or say "hey, over here, hey girl, right here, common" as if they are calling their pet. That makes me absolutely see red. I'm incredibly, incredibly good at just ignoring these guys, but the only time I ever turned around and yelled at someone was when they made the smoochy dog call at me while I was walking hand in hand with my boyfriend. I just couldn't help it, I was so angry.

So, DVS, while I understand the concept of a respectful catcall, I just have had very, very few experiences of catcalls that I took as genuine and respectful, and by and large wish that strangers would just keep their opinions to themselves.

 

[ivantheterrible]

thigh highs, thigh high boots, ankle high lace up boots, confidence. a woman that likes to be dominated and isn't afraid of it, a woman who likes to be done by 2 or more men.

 

[satindesire]

I can understand that sometimes men don't get taught how to properly compliment a woman. That peer pressure and pack mentality can contribute to an otherwise decent guy acting like an asshole. But it doesn't make it any easier on a woman who's getting, basically, sexually harassed OPENLY by these guys.

I'm okay with a guy (or girl, whomever) saying "Wow, you're really beautiful." or "I love your hair!" or "You always have the cutest clothes." etc. Pinning down some sexual body part like "Whoo hoo baby, nice legs!" is gross and makes me feel like a walking vagina, not a valuable human being.

I've been downright hostile to these catcallers, flipping them off, cursing them out, etc. I've never just smiled and walked away when I felt insulted. I feel like they need to learn that not every good looking woman REALLY "Appreciates" or "Likes" being verbally abused. As a matter of fact, when I speak to women about these things, they tell me the same thing. That they DON'T like it, and the only reason they smile and walk away is because they don't want any more attention than they've already gotten. It's not them being flattered, it's them escaping a humiliating and uncomfortable situation as quickly and quietly as possible.

I'm not a small girl by any means and I know how to handle myself in a fight to a point, so I'm not afraid to stand up for myself when I get abused. I can't imagine any woman who'd like being -catcalled-.

 

[Netzach]

That's the most homoerotic thing I've seen since I watched a video of men kissing, that ITW put up way back when.

Which is saying something, considering that my niece insisted that I watch Gaga's Alejandro a few days ago.

BJJ - "it's only gay if you make eye contact."

 

[Netzach]

well that could be said of many academics (or, if you are one of those for whom "street smart" trumps "book smart", ALL academics). There is nothing to say that just because an academic is a feminist, then they have to show any kind of sisterhood, Paglia is a prime example of that, and to some extent so is Greer. That doesn't change the fact that there are literally thousands of feminists working in sociology departments doing great research to help improve the lot of women. They just don't get the headlines because they don't 'do' the majorly contentious stuff.

Point is, is that for many feminist academics, they are labelled as feminist simply because they deal with issues around gender, which is increasingly also involving notions around masculinity.

I just get sick of people thinking they know what feminist academics represent because they have read some half-baked, third-hand critique of Andrea Dworkin (for example) written by a man.

I'm basing my opinion on a HIGH degree of exposure, let's just put it that way, and coming to the ivory tower from a working class background. I found so much of the dialogue completely unmoored from the reality that most women live on a daily basis as to be a distraction from helping with it.

 

[JMohegan]

BJJ - "it's only gay if you make eye contact."

HAHAHA!!

 

[Homburg]

That's the most homoerotic thing I've seen since I watched a video of men kissing, that ITW put up way back when.

Which is saying something, considering that my niece insisted that I watch Gaga's Alejandro a few days ago.

Are there sports that aren't homoerotic in some way? Weren't you a football player? Every down starts with the a bunch of guys in tight pants sticking their asses nice and high in the air, and the QB huddles up nice and snug to the guy what hikes the ball. And where do the QB's hands go? And what's with all the ass-slapping anyway? Baseball players put their hands on their teammates asses more often than they do wit their wives.

Note: Not picking on football per se. Just saying that sports in general is rife with homoerotic imagery. BJJ, however, does look like fucking while clothed.

 

[JMohegan]

Are there sports that aren't homoerotic in some way?

I blame the original Olympians, who were clearly well-documented pervs.

 

[laceandcogs]

Are there sports that aren't homoerotic in some way? QUOTE]

Curling.


Seriously, though, you have a point. Then again, I don't immediately equate ass-grabbing with wanting to fuck someone, though I suppose it's vastly more likely than grabbing the ass of someone you definitely -don't- want to fuck.

 

[intothewoods]

That's the most homoerotic thing I've seen since I watched a video of men kissing, that ITW put up way back when.

Which is saying something, considering that my niece insisted that I watch Gaga's Alejandro a few days ago.

Ehhh, their hearts aren't in it.

 

[laceandcogs]

thigh highs, thigh high boots, ankle high lace up boots, confidence. a woman that likes to be dominated and isn't afraid of it, a woman who likes to be done by 2 or more men.

I don't really know what you're trying to do, here, but I know I don't like it.

 

[Etoile]

To me, feminism, small f, is that basic opportunities, economic parity, able to walk the streets without fear of attack stuff that I think we can generally agree is a good thing.

Feminism big F is that academic marxist-feminist stuff that's so hung up on questions of representation and symbols that it has left the real world building.


I consider myself a small f feminist. I think that, for example, a corporate culture of quid pro quo sexual harrassment is a bigger problem than some women opting to wear high heels or lipstick as evidence of "false consciousness."

You keep stealing everything I have to say!

Feminism gets a bad rap because people paint it as women thinking they are better than men. That's totally not the case. Feminism is about women being equal. And we aren't. My entire Women's History class last semester was about this. The teacher went around the room and asked us each if we considered ourselves feminists (I think there were 8 girls and 2 guys there that day). I was shocked when several students said no, and sure enough, it was the "big F" feminism myth that they were responding to. Those of us who understand that feminism is simply about equality proudly stated that we were feminists.

 

[laceandcogs]

I was shocked when several students said no, and sure enough, it was the "big F" feminism myth that they were responding to. Those of us who understand that feminism is simply about equality proudly stated that we were feminists.

It really has become a dirty word. I wish I knew exactly when that happened so I could try to prevent it. Feminism is not about female superiority. Any woman who can't understand why "girls rule boys drool" is every bit as simplistic and stupid as patriarchy is an idiot, not a feminist.

 

[Etoile]

It really has become a dirty word. I wish I knew exactly when that happened so I could try to prevent it. Feminism is not about female superiority. Any woman who can't understand why "girls rule boys drool" is every bit as simplistic and stupid as patriarchy is an idiot, not a feminist.

Yes, but cats DO rule and dogs DO drool. That's the way the phrase SHOULD go.

 

[satindesire]

Yes, but cats DO rule and dogs DO drool. That's the way the phrase SHOULD go.

http://mybroadband.co.za/photos/data/500/relevant_to_my_interests.jpg

 

[Etoile]

http://mybroadband.co.za/photos/data/500/relevant_to_my_interests.jpg

img fail

 

[satindesire]

img fail

Aww, it works on my screen!? It's a good one, too.

 

[graceanne]

Cat calls, ugh. I know I shouldn't but I still do, every time I'm walking with one of my women and I hear one it's like an insult directed at me. The shit I've gotten into responding to that.

See problem is cat calls are usually the product of group psychology, so it's not one guy you got to deal with, it's him and all his little helper dudes.

Although once I was walking with a girl, and this guy on the street says to us, "you two make a really good couple", problem is she was my sister. We both give him a funny look, my sister says thanks, and he adds, "even if you are brother and sister, you look good together".

Maybe it was cause she was on my arm, siblings don't do that much in the states do they.

My sister and I took our brother out for a drink on his 21st birthday. A group of guys at the next table figured out it was his 21st and bought him a drink. He drank it then the leader said 'nice birthday, surrounded by boobs' and pointed to me and my sister. My brother said 'Dude. They're my sisters.' and this guy BLUSHED and said 'OH MY GOD I AM SO SORRY!' and LEFT! We laughed our asses off.

Aww, it works on my screen!? It's a good one, too.

Doesn't work for me, either.

To the OP: http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h284/graceanne1978/lit%20images/istock_can-of-worms.jpg

 

[Stella_Omega]

It really has become a dirty word. I wish I knew exactly when that happened so I could try to prevent it. Feminism is not about female superiority.

I can tell you when it happened-- it happened the first time a man heard a woman say that she wanted her fair share.

Any woman who can't understand why "girls rule boys drool" is every bit as simplistic and stupid as patriarchy is an idiot, not a feminist.

It's an action/reaction thing, yanno? I totally agree that dismissing the group that's over you is simplistic, but I can think of times in my life when simplistic notions like that one, that let me ignore a huge swath of problematic concourse, made live more livable. It's sometimes really really nice to let your guard down without wondering if you're going to regret it ten minutes in.

 

[Netzach]

I can tell you when it happened-- it happened the first time a man heard a woman say that she wanted her fair share.
It's an action/reaction thing, yanno? I totally agree that dismissing the group that's over you is simplistic, but I can think of times in my life when simplistic notions like that one, that let me ignore a huge swath of problematic concourse, made live more livable. It's sometimes really really nice to let your guard down without wondering if you're going to regret it ten minutes in.

After like 8000 years of systematic oppression I'm trying to be just as angry over that notion, that trying on an idea of superiorty for six seconds that actually has no real-world ramification is the same thing. I'm not a female supremacist, even in my most fetishistic dreams, but I am completely kinked around the idea of female *autonomy* what he wants, be damned.

This is my outraged face.

Yeah, maybe it's wrong, totally sophomoric, but maybe it's actually fun for some of us in its time and place, and there actually is some weird personal-political overlap in our psychosexual whatever which thrives on a paradigm of male weakness and female manipulation. To equate it to the things that have gone down in the name of patriarchy is to lose all sense of proportion. There's something very radical about breaking the edict that thou shalt be nice all the time. I could be the most evil venal man hating bitch on the planet ever and it's not even coming close to touching the scales overall.