What is feminism?

[Stella_Omega]

Is this the video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgahDezNBqA

 

[DVS]

Do you feel lucky, punk?

LOL.

Um, since you're laughing...I guess not. Story of my life.

 

[DVS]

I've taught them. The classes I found more useful were the awareness talk I got in a security class taught by a 25+ year street cop.

I've had training, and am also aware of body language aggressive people sometimes exhibit.

Given the way they are portrayed in the US media, it's surprising to hear that. Mounties in American media are Captain Canada!

Yes, I agree about the RCMP. Maybe it has something to do with the cool looking red uniforms?

 

[YourCaptor]

Cat calls, ugh. I know I shouldn't but I still do, every time I'm walking with one of my women and I hear one it's like an insult directed at me. The shit I've gotten into responding to that.

See problem is cat calls are usually the product of group psychology, so it's not one guy you got to deal with, it's him and all his little helper dudes.

Although once I was walking with a girl, and this guy on the street says to us, "you two make a really good couple", problem is she was my sister. We both give him a funny look, my sister says thanks, and he adds, "even if you are brother and sister, you look good together".

Maybe it was cause she was on my arm, siblings don't do that much in the states do they.

 

[Kojote]

Feminism, to me, (in the first world), is not so much about saying "You must accept me as an equal, no matter what!", as it is about having the freedom to follow your heart.

Shouldn't that apply to everybody?
It sounds not like feminism for me. It sounds like a pretty good idea.
Why make distinctions?

There are differences between all people.
I know women who would be perfectly suited to DVS's security job and men who got raped.

Call it feminism and it only applies to women.
Why is that?
Is it somehow important to make this distinction?
Is it better to fight for womens rights till only men get raped at night in the park or wherever?

Feminism was a pretty good idea when it started. But I think we should slowly stop thinking about gender distinctions.
Every ‘women should have the right to’ could be applied to men except a few biological ones.

I am totally tired to hear things like ‘women don’t get equal pay’.
I know a couple of guys from Russia working on a construction site. And guess what…
They don’t get paid as well as the german workers.

I could keep up with this ad infinitum.

Discrimination is not a gender question. It’s not a racial question. Not even a question of nationality.
It’s a question of power and money, opportunity and disrespect.


In my opinion men and women are of equal worth. And should be treated that way.
Anybody to disagree with that?

 

[where]

I sorta like the small 'f' big 'F' comparison.


'Feminism' is not about evening the scales, it is swinging radically them to the other side using the past as justification. Useful in the rare occasion, but for the most part I think it undermines things a bit.

No, it's not. Think Paglia for example. And to argue that feminist academics are only focused on the affluent west is to totally ignore and disparage all the work, often under really difficult circumstances that feminist academics in asia and africa do.

 

[JMohegan]

Shouldn't that apply to everybody?
It sounds not like feminism for me. It sounds like a pretty good idea.
Why make distinctions?

There are differences between all people.
I know women who would be perfectly suited to DVS's security job and men who got raped.

Call it feminism and it only applies to women.
Why is that?
Is it somehow important to make this distinction?
Is it better to fight for womens rights till only men get raped at night in the park or wherever?

Feminism was a pretty good idea when it started. But I think we should slowly stop thinking about gender distinctions.

I won't address what's been going on in Germany. I'll leave that to you.

In the U.S., the fight for women's rights wasn't just a "pretty good idea" when it started. It was (and is) a critical effort to address grave injustices, and insure the fundamental integrity of our democracy.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Thomas Jefferson, 1776. Nice words, but unfortunately the signers of that document took the "men" thing literally.

American women did not obtain voting rights - the most basic of rights for a citizen - until 144 years later.

We didn't even start getting serious about insuring equal pay for equal work until 1963, and we're still fine tuning the details on that legislation today. See the Ledbetter Act, signed into law by Obama.

The penal code of every single state in this country permitted a marital exemption to rape until 1975, when laws slowly began to change - one at a time, state by state - a process that took until 1993 to be complete. Fucking 1993. And even now, there are states in which the penalty for spousal rape is less severe than the penalty for an identical crime perpetrated by a stranger.

I could go on, but presumably I've made my point. I don't see feminism as the embodiment of some vague notion about everybody following his or her heart. I see it as a series of tangible efforts to redress serious wrongs in our society. Wrongs that exist precisely because of the distinctions that you decry.

 

[Netzach]

No, it's not. Think Paglia for example. And to argue that feminist academics are only focused on the affluent west is to totally ignore and disparage all the work, often under really difficult circumstances that feminist academics in asia and africa do.

Clearly the critique is not directed at people in "really difficult circumstances" or trying to do something about them is it?

I'm thinking more of certain feminist scholars an example comes to mind - who might have extreme white-skin and class privilege in the context of their Latin country of origin but never once deal with or discuss the issue, just live inside their oppression in the states, where they can re-invent themselves as nothing but oppressed. That's a better example of the kind of self-indulgence I'm talking about.

 

[Netzach]

I won't address what's been going on in Germany. I'll leave that to you.

In the U.S., the fight for women's rights wasn't just a "pretty good idea" when it started. It was (and is) a critical effort to address grave injustices, and insure the fundamental integrity of our democracy.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Thomas Jefferson, 1776. Nice words, but unfortunately the signers of that document took the "men" thing literally.

American women did not obtain voting rights - the most basic of rights for a citizen - until 144 years later.

We didn't even start getting serious about insuring equal pay for equal work until 1963, and we're still fine tuning the details on that legislation today. See the Ledbetter Act, signed into law by Obama.

The penal code of every single state in this country permitted a marital exemption to rape until 1975, when laws slowly began to change - one at a time, state by state - a process that took until 1993 to be complete. Fucking 1993. And even now, there are states in which the penalty for spousal rape is less severe than the penalty for an identical crime perpetrated by a stranger.

I could go on, but presumably I've made my point. I don't see feminism as the embodiment of some vague notion about everybody following his or her heart. I see it as a series of tangible efforts to redress serious wrongs in our society. Wrongs that exist precisely because of the distinctions that you decry.

There's a pretty long list of European, Latin and Scandinavian countries that got the vote thing down before the "land of the free", too - we were not even on the vanguard on that one. Needless to say we'll be the last industrialized "free" country dragged kicking and screaming into gay rights of any sort, which also tie into a paranoia of the feminine.

Americans are remarkably good with fascist ideology, we really still see a blond buxom family with babies in the breadbasket among waves of grain when we think "us" - it's astounding.

 

[Keroin]

About half the class stayed after to thank me. It felt really good, and I'd do it again in a heartbeat. The fact that it was free made it even better.

Ditto. Ours was a free program, as well. I was amazed at how many women came out for them but quickly realized it was because martial arts classes back then were about 90% men and most women were too intimidated to join, even though they wanted to learn. Last time I stopped into the old dojo for a visit, my sensei told me the student ration was about 60/40, women/men. Holy huge changes Batman!

Given the way they are portrayed in the US media, it's surprising to hear that. Mounties in American media are Captain Canada!

Yes, I agree about the RCMP. Maybe it has something to do with the cool looking red uniforms?

Traditionally, the Mounties have been very, very good at what they do. Their reputation (Captain Canada, ha!) is not undeserved - hey, they kept justice in the wild frontier during the gold rush without any guns - but they are also kind of an "elite" group. As such, when they come fresh out of training they can be pretty freaking arrogant.

 

[Ausus_girl13]

Americans are remarkably good with fascist ideology, we really still see a blond buxom family with babies in the breadbasket among waves of grain when we think "us" - it's astounding.

I just had to agree with this statement. It's remarkable that this is the way that we still view things.

Which is why I love the academic feminists that have called us on this, Bell Hooks for example. Love her!

 

[DVS]

Cat calls?
Back in the early 70s, I was going around the country tearing down ROBO car washes. A guy backed out of a franchise deal and the company needed to recoup what they could from the various installed locations. The ROBO vice president was my second cousin. I wasn't doing anything worth while for a couple of summers so he and I drove to these places and hired locals to help dismantle and salvage the items that ROBO owned. Then, we loaded it all into a semi and had it shipped back home.

In Fort Dodge, Iowa, we were removing the metal roofing of one building. It was a very hot week in August and it seemed like every woman that walked by on the sidewalk was luscious and sexy. I was in my prime sexually, so that could have had something to do with it. Anyway, there was a guy working for us that was an out of work iron worker. He was in his later 40s and had been in the biz for most of his life. The size of his forearms more than matched the size of my legs. Yes, I was a 145 pound 6 foot tall string bean at the time.

He said women enjoyed cat calls from hot and sweaty men who were doing physical labor. It was something women didn't want to admit to but it went back to the raw sexual energy we all have in us. It wasn't his theory. He said he had learned this from the older iron workers that he apprenticed with. The theory goes...if you treat them with respect, there isn't a woman on the street that wouldn't enjoy being acknowledged for the raw sexual power she has over a man.

Keep in mind that this was nearly 40 years ago, and long before the world became so politically correct and sensitive about sexual abuse. But, we tested it out and I'd have to say that the majority of the women really seemed to enjoy being singled out sexually by a bunch of sweaty guys. Some even stopped on the sidewalk, looked up and milked the guys for more comments. None of them seemed to be the least bit pissed. And it wasn't an age thing, because the women involved were in their 20s to 40s...well within their prime.

We were all very respectful, but rather graphic, too. We never used filthy language but otherwise spoke from the heart. The sexual energy flowed like warm molasses and it really made a hot and dirty job a lot easier. The result? I know some cat calls are demeaning, but if it's done with respect for the woman, it's like telling her she still has what it takes.

 

[Keroin]

I won't address what's been going on in Germany. I'll leave that to you.

In the U.S., the fight for women's rights wasn't just a "pretty good idea" when it started. It was (and is) a critical effort to address grave injustices, and insure the fundamental integrity of our democracy.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Thomas Jefferson, 1776. Nice words, but unfortunately the signers of that document took the "men" thing literally.

American women did not obtain voting rights - the most basic of rights for a citizen - until 144 years later.

We didn't even start getting serious about insuring equal pay for equal work until 1963, and we're still fine tuning the details on that legislation today. See the Ledbetter Act, signed into law by Obama.

The penal code of every single state in this country permitted a marital exemption to rape until 1975, when laws slowly began to change - one at a time, state by state - a process that took until 1993 to be complete. Fucking 1993. And even now, there are states in which the penalty for spousal rape is less severe than the penalty for an identical crime perpetrated by a stranger.

I could go on, but presumably I've made my point. I don't see feminism as the embodiment of some vague notion about everybody following his or her heart. I see it as a series of tangible efforts to redress serious wrongs in our society. Wrongs that exist precisely because of the distinctions that you decry.

Good points, excellent response. I just want to address the bit in bold.

Except that I can't.

Blurg. I've made four attempts and none seem to convey what I was thinking in the moment I wrote that. Perhaps I'll try again later on down the road, when I'm out of the codeine-induced fog.

But let me say that despite my vagueness, I do also feel injustice and discrimination against women exist and there still is very much a need to address that.

 

[JMohegan]

There's a pretty long list of European, Latin and Scandinavian countries that got the vote thing down before the "land of the free", too - we were not even on the vanguard on that one. Needless to say we'll be the last industrialized "free" country dragged kicking and screaming into gay rights of any sort, which also tie into a paranoia of the feminine.

Americans are remarkably good with fascist ideology, we really still see a blond buxom family with babies in the breadbasket among waves of grain when we think "us" - it's astounding.

Remember our discussion about this?

My god, I just realized that was nearly two years ago. Time flies, it really does.

At any rate, since my addressee in the previous post was German, I just checked - and note that they beat us to the emancipation of women by two years. In addition, of course, they've got Angela Merkel. Beyond that, I'm embarrassed to say that I don't know much detailed history about the German fight for women's rights.

 

[JMohegan]

Good points, excellent response. I just want to address the bit in bold.

Except that I can't.

Blurg. I've made four attempts and none seem to convey what I was thinking in the moment I wrote that. Perhaps I'll try again later on down the road, when I'm out of the codeine-induced fog.

But let me say that despite my vagueness, I do also feel injustice and discrimination against women exist and there still is very much a need to address that.

We can pass every conceivable law to address codified injustice, and make sure that those laws are rigorously enforced. Make all Americans, regardless of gender, truly equal in every tangible legal sense.

But if the majority in our society still deride, mock, or scorn husbands who stay home to raise kids, or female stuntpeople, or women who just plain don't want to have babies, or indeed anyone bucking traditional gender roles, then from an intangible perspective our society will still be imperfect. And from a feminist perspective, there will still be work (in the form of attitude adjustment) to be done.

Is that what you meant?

 

[WriterDom]

But if the majority in our society still deride, mock, or scorn husbands who stay home to raise kids, or female stuntpeople, or women who just plain don't want to have babies, or indeed anyone bucking traditional gender roles, then from an intangible perspective our society will still be imperfect. And from a feminist perspective, there will still be work (in the form of attitude adjustment) to be done.

Is that what you meant?

opppps

 

[WriterDom]

We can pass every conceivable law to address codified injustice, and make sure that those laws are rigorously enforced. Make all Americans, regardless of gender, truly equal in every tangible legal sense.

But if the majority in our society still deride, mock, or scorn husbands who stay home to raise kids, or female stuntpeople, or women who just plain don't want to have babies, or indeed anyone bucking traditional gender roles, then from an intangible perspective our society will still be imperfect. And from a feminist perspective, there will still be work (in the form of attitude adjustment) to be done.

Is that what you meant?

I think the majority in the country are just hoping that someone in the family has a job at this point.

 

[Keroin]

Qualifications...

There's been some mention of this regarding security and firefighting work. I definitely feel that if you can't fulfill the basic requirements of a job then you shouldn't be doing it, regardless of gender.

Here's a story for you, though...

I applied for a job as a security guard back when I was a student. My then-boyfriend was working for a security company, he made more than I did waitressing and his working conditions were vastly preferable to mine. Basically, his job was to drive around, check in on various buildings and file reports. If he encountered any problems, his instructions were to call head office and/or the police. He didn't carry a gun and he was supposed to avoid any conflicts. I figured with my martial arts training, excellent driving record and other qualifications, I would make a great security guard.

Nope.

The company stated very clearly that they would not hire women to do patrols. Supposedly this was for safety reasons and yet one of their patrol employees was so vastly overweight and out of shape that walking up a flight of stairs would nearly do him in. But, of course, his dick offered him "magical male protection"...

ETA: That was 20 years ago. I'm dead curious to know what most security company hiring policies are now.

 

[Keroin]

We can pass every conceivable law to address codified injustice, and make sure that those laws are rigorously enforced. Make all Americans, regardless of gender, truly equal in every tangible legal sense.

But if the majority in our society still deride, mock, or scorn husbands who stay home to raise kids, or female stuntpeople, or women who just plain don't want to have babies, or indeed anyone bucking traditional gender roles, then from an intangible perspective our society will still be imperfect. And from a feminist perspective, there will still be work (in the form of attitude adjustment) to be done.

Is that what you meant?

Yep. Thanks

 

[JMohegan]

Yep. Thanks

Quite welcome.

Codeine, huh? Hope you feel better soon.

 

[JMohegan]

I think the majority in the country are just hoping that someone in the family has a job at this point.

I'm sure the Invisible Hand will start passing out job acceptance letters as soon is it possibly can. And in the meantime, charitable folks everywhere will pick up the tab for those unemployment benefits that Congress, in its esteemed wisdom, has decided to cut off.

 

[Keroin]

Codeine, huh? Hope you feel better soon.

Yes and thanks. Dental work gone horribly awry. Hopefully to be solved in a few days.

 

[satindesire]

I'm just confused as to HOW a 'catcall' can be -respectful- to a woman.

I've been the recipient of many MANY catcalls and they -always- piss me off. They're disgusting and disrespectful. If you think I'm beautiful, don't shout from a rooftop you've been hammering shingles into that I've got a nice ass.

Fucking pigs. GRRR!!!!!

 

[DVS]

Qualifications...

There's been some mention of this regarding security and firefighting work. I definitely feel that if you can't fulfill the basic requirements of a job then you shouldn't be doing it, regardless of gender.

Here's a story for you, though...

I applied for a job as a security guard back when I was a student. My then-boyfriend was working for a security company, he made more than I did waitressing and his working conditions were vastly preferable to mine. Basically, his job was to drive around, check in on various buildings and file reports. If he encountered any problems, his instructions were to call head office and/or the police. He didn't carry a gun and he was supposed to avoid any conflicts. I figured with my martial arts training, excellent driving record and other qualifications, I would make a great security guard.

Nope.

The company stated very clearly that they would not hire women to do patrols. Supposedly this was for safety reasons and yet one of their patrol employees was so vastly overweight and out of shape that walking up a flight of stairs would nearly do him in. But, of course, his dick offered him "magical male protection"...

ETA: That was 20 years ago. I'm dead curious to know what most security company hiring policies are now.

I'm curious to know if that vastly overweight guy is still alive.

Women are hired by security companies. And I think they are required to because of EEOC rules. There are a few that will require a physical aptitude test before you're hired, but that is very rare. You see a lot of over weight men and women in contract security. In the company I worked for, every post I worked at seemed to have their share of African American women who weighed over 250 pounds. Some even had a difficult time just walking.

I think it is strange that company didn't hire you, if all you did was to drive a car and write reports. But, if you were out on the city streets, maybe they were concerned you might be too vulnerable to the outside world. In the contract security company I worked for, they had what they called a soft look uniform and a hard look uniform. The soft look was just a navy blue blazer, white shirt and gray slacks. the hard look was what they called paramilitary style, with patches. The security badge was just a patch.

They had a policy that anyone wearing the soft look wasn't allowed to patrol out on city streets at all. They said that someone dressed in the paramilitary style was less likely to be mugged. Even if you had been issued pepper spray and handcuffs with the basic training, you were not allowed to patrol in that soft look.

They also had a rule against women patrolling on the city streets after dark, no matter what uniform they were wearing. These rules were what many male guards had a problem with, because they seemed to always get the patrol jobs. That was nice in the summer months, but in the cold winter, it really sucked. And these women were paid the same as the male guards.

 

[where]

Clearly the critique is not directed at people in "really difficult circumstances" or trying to do something about them is it?

I'm thinking more of certain feminist scholars an example comes to mind - who might have extreme white-skin and class privilege in the context of their Latin country of origin but never once deal with or discuss the issue, just live inside their oppression in the states, where they can re-invent themselves as nothing but oppressed. That's a better example of the kind of self-indulgence I'm talking about.

well that could be said of many academics (or, if you are one of those for whom "street smart" trumps "book smart", ALL academics). There is nothing to say that just because an academic is a feminist, then they have to show any kind of sisterhood, Paglia is a prime example of that, and to some extent so is Greer. That doesn't change the fact that there are literally thousands of feminists working in sociology departments doing great research to help improve the lot of women. They just don't get the headlines because they don't 'do' the majorly contentious stuff.

Point is, is that for many feminist academics, they are labelled as feminist simply because they deal with issues around gender, which is increasingly also involving notions around masculinity.

I just get sick of people thinking they know what feminist academics represent because they have read some half-baked, third-hand critique of Andrea Dworkin (for example) written by a man.