When did liberals fall in love with Islam/Islamics?

[The_Trouvere]

The Quran does not call for violent conversion.

"There shall be no compulsion in religion" (2:256); "Say to the disbelievers [that is, atheists, or polytheists, namely those who reject God] "To you, your beliefs, to me, mine" (109:1-6)"

That verse about no compulsion in religion was written before Muhammad had the power to force conversions. After he had that power this verse was added to the Koran.

Sura 9:5 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war).

 

[Sean Renaud]

The Pagans are mostly dead at this point. I am mildly curious where an atheist falls under that proclamation.

 

[Aglaopheme]

They didn't use to like them, considering that Islam is generally against most everything the liberals believe on social issues
Not to mention the longstanding animosity between Islam and Zionism, and the fact that traditionally American Jews were a significant force in the liberal establishment in the US. It seems like the Jews are no longer as prominent in US liberalism, which is another interesting discussion, but new groups that seem to have taken their place such as gays, athiests, femanists, etc, would not seem to be friendly with Islam either.

Perhaps, its now become a cause celebre to be pro-Muslim among liberals because many rightwingers are taking anti-Islamic positions in response to Islamic attacks on the west. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, in this case, conservatives and other rightwingers? Or perhaps, they just like the idea of a society in which nobody has anything in common and there is cultural chaos, and a minority religion helps further than end, even if in theory its hostile to their other social beliefs?

I always viewed the Islam question as a sideshow to the left-right debate. I'm still not exactly sure how it fits into that paradigm, if it does.

Why haven't the right fully embraced Islam/Islamics, as they seem to hold a lot of the same beliefs those on the newfangled right hold so dear (homosexuality, abortion, femanism, family values, modesty in ladies clothing, belief in God, etc).
?

 

[phrodeau]

Leftist sympathy with Muslims is somewhat paradoxical because everything leftists dislike about the religious right and the Bible Belt is far more true of Muslims, and Muslim society.

This sympathy can be explained by leftist sympathy for those they consider to be "oppressed," as well as the leftist tendency to blame white racism, European colonialism, and American imperialism for all the evils of the world.

Or by a basic understanding of the First Amendment.

Why do conservatives ignore the Constitution whenever it suits them?

 

[Hard_Rom]

That verse about no compulsion in religion was written before Muhammad had the power to force conversions. After he had that power this verse was added to the Koran.

Sura 9:5 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war).

"But when the forbidden months are past,
then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them,
and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war);
but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them:
for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."

You have seemingly willfully misquoted a sword verse. ISIL does the same thing.

Qur’anic exegetes al-Baydawi and al-Alusi explain that it refers to those pagan Arabs who violated their peace treaties by waging war against the Muslims.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_Verse
The entire passage in which 9:5 occurs is:

An acquittal, from God and His Messenger, unto the idolaters with whom you made covenant: (1) 'Journey freely in the land for four months; and know that you cannot frustrate the will of God, and that God degrades the unbelievers.' (2) A proclamation, from God and His Messenger, unto mankind on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage: 'God is quit, and His Messenger, of the idolaters. So if you repent, that will be better for you; but if you turn your backs; know that you cannot frustrate the will of God. And give thou good tidings to the unbelievers of a painful chastisement; (3) excepting those of the idolaters with whom you made covenant, then they failed. you naught neither lent support to any man against you. With them fulfil your covenant till their term; surely God loves the godfearing. (4) Then, when the sacred months are drawn away, slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent, and perform the prayer, and pay the alms, then let them go their way; God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate. (5) And if any of the idolaters seeks of thee protection, grant him protection till he hears the words of God; then do thou convey him to his place of security -- that, because they are a people who do not know. (6) How should the idolaters have a covenant with God and His Messenger? -- excepting those with whom you made covenant at the Holy Mosque; so long as they go straight with you, do you go straight with them; surely God loves the godfearing. (7)
— Trans. Arberry[3]

Dr. Maher Hathout clarifies the historical context of the verse:

This verse was revealed towards the end of the revelation period and relates to a limited context. Hostilities were frozen for a three-month period during which the Arabs pledged not to wage war. Prophet Muhammad was inspired to use this period to encourage the combatants to join the Muslim ranks or, if they chose, to leave the area that was under Muslims rule; however, if they were to resume hostilities, then the Muslims would fight back until victorious. One is inspired to note that even in this context of war, the verse concludes by emphasizing the divine attributes of mercy and forgiveness. To minimize hostilities, the Qur'an ordered Muslims to grant asylum to anyone, even an enemy, who sought refuge. Asylum would be granted according to the customs of chivalry; the person would be told the message of the Qur'an but not coerced into accepting that message. Thereafter, he or she would be escorted to safety regardless of his or her religion. (9:6).[4]

Again we are talking olden times and still the choice arose to become one of the Abrahamic religions. No choice and many times no quarter given by Christians.

 

[The_Trouvere]

Or by a basic understanding of the First Amendment.

Why do conservatives ignore the Constitution whenever it suits them?

Both sides interpret the Constitution to suit their preferences.

 

[The_Trouvere]

"But when the forbidden months are past,
then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them,
and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war);
but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them:
for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."

You have seemingly willfully misquoted a sword verse. ISIL does the same thing.

Qur’anic exegetes al-Baydawi and al-Alusi explain that it refers to those pagan Arabs who violated their peace treaties by waging war against the Muslims.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_Verse
The entire passage in which 9:5 occurs is:

An acquittal, from God and His Messenger, unto the idolaters with whom you made covenant: (1) 'Journey freely in the land for four months; and know that you cannot frustrate the will of God, and that God degrades the unbelievers.' (2) A proclamation, from God and His Messenger, unto mankind on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage: 'God is quit, and His Messenger, of the idolaters. So if you repent, that will be better for you; but if you turn your backs; know that you cannot frustrate the will of God. And give thou good tidings to the unbelievers of a painful chastisement; (3) excepting those of the idolaters with whom you made covenant, then they failed. you naught neither lent support to any man against you. With them fulfil your covenant till their term; surely God loves the godfearing. (4) Then, when the sacred months are drawn away, slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent, and perform the prayer, and pay the alms, then let them go their way; God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate. (5) And if any of the idolaters seeks of thee protection, grant him protection till he hears the words of God; then do thou convey him to his place of security -- that, because they are a people who do not know. (6) How should the idolaters have a covenant with God and His Messenger? -- excepting those with whom you made covenant at the Holy Mosque; so long as they go straight with you, do you go straight with them; surely God loves the godfearing. (7)
— Trans. Arberry[3]

Dr. Maher Hathout clarifies the historical context of the verse:

This verse was revealed towards the end of the revelation period and relates to a limited context. Hostilities were frozen for a three-month period during which the Arabs pledged not to wage war. Prophet Muhammad was inspired to use this period to encourage the combatants to join the Muslim ranks or, if they chose, to leave the area that was under Muslims rule; however, if they were to resume hostilities, then the Muslims would fight back until victorious. One is inspired to note that even in this context of war, the verse concludes by emphasizing the divine attributes of mercy and forgiveness. To minimize hostilities, the Qur'an ordered Muslims to grant asylum to anyone, even an enemy, who sought refuge. Asylum would be granted according to the customs of chivalry; the person would be told the message of the Qur'an but not coerced into accepting that message. Thereafter, he or she would be escorted to safety regardless of his or her religion. (9:6).[4]

Again we are talking olden times and still the choice arose to become one of the Abrahamic religions. No choice and many times no quarter given by Christians.

The Koran is full of incitements to violence. The New Testament is not.

Please excuse these copies and pastes from the internet. I cannot find my copy of the Koran.

--------


Sura 2:191 - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing.

Sura 3:151 Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority.

Sura 4:76 Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah.

Sura 4:95 Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home), except those who are disabled (by injury or are blind or lame, etc.), and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred in grades those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and their lives above those who sit (at home). Unto each, Allah has promised good (Paradise), but Allah has preferred those who strive hard and fight, above those who sit (at home) by a huge reward.

Sura 4:104 And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain.

Sura 5:33 The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement.

Sura 8:12 I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

The Koran goes on and on like this.

 

[about_average]

Both sides interpret the Constitution to suit their preferences.

It's not a matter of how people "interpret" it. It's very clear.
Trump, and those like him, are completely ignoring it.
Kinda like how Herman Cain ignored Article VI, paragraph 3 when it came to Muslims.

 

[phrodeau]

It's not a matter of how people "interpret" it. It's very clear.
Trump, and those like him, are completely ignoring it.
Kinda like how Herman Cain ignored Article VI, paragraph 3 when it came to Muslims.

Do you mean Ben Carson? Ben Carson is Herman Cain 1.1.

 

[DeYaKen]

The Koran is full of incitements to violence. The New Testament is not.

Please excuse these copies and pastes from the internet. I cannot find my copy of the Koran.

--------


Sura 2:191 - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing.

Sura 3:151 Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority.

Sura 4:76 Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah.

Sura 4:95 Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home), except those who are disabled (by injury or are blind or lame, etc.), and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred in grades those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and their lives above those who sit (at home). Unto each, Allah has promised good (Paradise), but Allah has preferred those who strive hard and fight, above those who sit (at home) by a huge reward.

Sura 4:104 And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain.

Sura 5:33 The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement.

Sura 8:12 I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

The Koran goes on and on like this.

Why is it that Christians rely on the New testament for arguments like this, but resort to the Old Testament when they want to indoctrinate children. They dismiss the Old testament when anyone talks about the incitements to violence, the supremacy of men and what amounts to Sharia law, it contains. However when they want to get children interested in Christianity, Out comes Moses, Daniel in the lion's den, the parting of the red sea, David and Goliath, the battle of Jehrico, etc. Al these stories come from the Old testament which, when you point out the bad bits, they say has no validity.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Both sides interpret the Constitution to suit their preferences.

I'd love to see some examples really of EITHER side doing it. I think it's safe to say that both sides only acknowledge the Constitution when it agrees with them and ignore it otherwise but that's different from interpretting it as saying something it doesn't. The only cases of "that" I can see are various arguments over what the phrasing of the 2nd Amendment was meant to mean and what precisely is a natural born citizen since it is never defined.

I think the next time we have a president we don't want we should prove he had a c-section. Fucker wasnt' born at all! Worked on Macbeth didn't it!

 

[The_Trouvere]

Why is it that Christians rely on the New testament for arguments like this, but resort to the Old Testament when they want to indoctrinate children. They dismiss the Old testament when anyone talks about the incitements to violence, the supremacy of men and what amounts to Sharia law, it contains. However when they want to get children interested in Christianity, Out comes Moses, Daniel in the lion's den, the parting of the red sea, David and Goliath, the battle of Jehrico, etc. Al these stories come from the Old testament which, when you point out the bad bits, they say has no validity.

The only time God tells the Israelites to use violence in the Old Testament is when tells them to conquer and occupy the land of Canaan. This is a fairly small sliver of land on the shores of the Mediterranean. The Koran commands the use of violence everywhere in the world in order to spread Islam.

 

[Sean Renaud]

The only time God tells the Israelites to use violence in the Old Testament is when tells them to conquer and occupy the land of Canaan. This is a fairly small sliver of land on the shores of the Mediterranean. The Koran commands the use of violence everywhere in the world in order to spread Islam.

This is blatantly untrue. The Bible recommends violence in most of the same circumstances as the Koran. Adulterers? Stone em. Talk back to your parents? Death. A witch? Do not suffer her to live. That's just off the top of my head mind you.

 

[Nathan_Brazil]

This is blatantly untrue. The Bible recommends violence in most of the same circumstances as the Koran. Adulterers? Stone em. Talk back to your parents? Death. A witch? Do not suffer her to live. That's just off the top of my head mind you.

American Christian thought is odd... It purports to follow Jesus, but instead tends to follow the old Jewish law that Jesus came to replace.

Pope Francis has called this idolotry...and I'd agree with him.

 

[Hard_Rom]

10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

 

[The_Trouvere]

This is blatantly untrue. The Bible recommends violence in most of the same circumstances as the Koran. Adulterers? Stone em. Talk back to your parents? Death. A witch? Do not suffer her to live. That's just off the top of my head mind you.

St. Paul said Christians are not required to obey anything in the Torah other than the Ten Commandments.

Also, what you mention are punishments. They are not commandments to use violence to spread Judaism or Christianity.

 

[RUlookingup]

This is blatantly untrue. The Bible recommends violence in most of the same circumstances as the Koran. Adulterers? Stone em. Talk back to your parents? Death. A witch? Do not suffer her to live. That's just off the top of my head mind you.

I'd recommend you actually open a Bible.

 

[NeverEndingMe]

yep ... obama wears pink panties

 

[Sean Renaud]

St. Paul said Christians are not required to obey anything in the Torah other than the Ten Commandments.

Also, what you mention are punishments. They are not commandments to use violence to spread Judaism or Christianity.

One need look no farther than gay marriage to tell you that modern day Christians could give a fuck less what St. Paul may or may not have said. If Christians actually lived according to the NT exclusively we'd have an entirely different society.

First a violent punishment is still violence so you're already wrong. And if 'punishing' witches with death isn't open season on pagans you're just delusional.

I'd recommend you actually open a Bible.

I've read it cover to cover multiple times thank you.

 

[BotanyBoy]

I'd recommend you actually open a Bible.

I think you're the one who need to open a Bible.....

If Christians actually took the Bible 1/2 as seriously as the Muslims do America wouldn't look much different than ISIS.

But we don't.....we cherry pick the infallible, all knowing, word of GOD! And then just ignore the rest because it's just really inconvenient.

 

[RUlookingup]

I don't care for extremists of any ilk. My personal opinion is that most of them are borderline nuts. If someone is going to trash the Bible, I will defend it, as it provides much more good advice than bad. I am for free speech, though we obviously need to be careful with the fallout of some speech. Trump's speech gets twisted and distorted to fit the left's narrative. Half the things he is said to have said, he never did. It is just the media extrapolating and sensationalizing his words. Some do the same with the Bible. They take only the parts they want to fit their story. I am far from a Bible thumper, i simply believe it does provide some good basic tenets to carry one through life. The golden rule works pretty well for starters, we have different perspectives of what we want done to us, especially here on this site. I think that healthy discussion is a good thing, Trump has helped bring about healthy debate.

 

[BotanyBoy]

I don't care for extremists of any ilk. My personal opinion is that most of them are borderline nuts. If someone is going to trash the Bible, I will defend it, as it provides much more good advice than bad.

That doesn't mean the Bible doesn't command all sorts of barbaric shit that isn't any better than what ISIS is doing and pointing it out isn't trashing the Bible, it's pointing out a fact.

 

[Aglaopheme]

I don't care for extremists of any ilk. My personal opinion is that most of them are borderline nuts. If someone is going to trash the Bible, I will defend it, as it provides much more good advice than bad. I am for free speech, though we obviously need to be careful with the fallout of some speech. Trump's speech gets twisted and distorted to fit the left's narrative. Half the things he is said to have said, he never did. It is just the media extrapolating and sensationalizing his words. Some do the same with the Bible. They take only the parts they want to fit their story. I am far from a Bible thumper, i simply believe it does provide some good basic tenets to carry one through life. The golden rule works pretty well for starters, we have different perspectives of what we want done to us, especially here on this site. I think that healthy discussion is a good thing, Trump has helped bring about healthy debate.

Can you point to one instance where the left "twisted and distorted" any of Trump's comments, or something that was reported he said but he hadn't?

 

[Sean Renaud]

I don't care for extremists of any ilk. My personal opinion is that most of them are borderline nuts. If someone is going to trash the Bible, I will defend it, as it provides much more good advice than bad. I am for free speech, though we obviously need to be careful with the fallout of some speech. Trump's speech gets twisted and distorted to fit the left's narrative. Half the things he is said to have said, he never did. It is just the media extrapolating and sensationalizing his words. Some do the same with the Bible. They take only the parts they want to fit their story. I am far from a Bible thumper, i simply believe it does provide some good basic tenets to carry one through life. The golden rule works pretty well for starters, we have different perspectives of what we want done to us, especially here on this site. I think that healthy discussion is a good thing, Trump has helped bring about healthy debate.

It should be trashed and it doesn't matter how much good advice it does or doesn't give. I think the bad outweighs the good but you know what? Harry Potter, Star Wars, Naruto and My Little Pony give BETTER advice than the Bible or the Koran. Plus they have the added bonus of not being "Written" by the divine. So if you happen to think Twilight Skywalker's advice on how to best deal with Akatsuki Muggles is flawed you have no reason at all to stick to it dogmatically. Wins all the fucking way round.

Trump has not helped anything other than for evil to rise up and be counted.

 

[phrodeau]

St. Paul said Christians are not required to obey anything in the Torah other than the Ten Commandments.

Also, what you mention are punishments. They are not commandments to use violence to spread Judaism or Christianity.

Good thing that there's no commandment in the Quran to use violence to spread Islam.