Where do I fit in? Or BiBunny's Proxy thread

[JMohegan]

PS: is it just my observation or is the RL BDSM community largely populated by people decrying how narrow minded the RL BDSM community is, and how they're not really fitting into it?

Me included, definitely.

Sometimes I think we are cats not herded. You have Dominants who don't want to do anything without feeling like it was their decision and subs dying to prove they don't do things JUST because someone other than their personal whomever told them to, and you wind up with a lot of contrarian tendencies and fetishizing of individuality.

With regard to that first part, I honestly don't know. Over the years, I've popped into many BDSM clubs in which a whole hell of a lot of exhibitionists and voyeurs seemed to be having a rollicking good time.

I've also been exposed to groups that take their culture *very* seriously, and consider the rules & norms themselves to be a key part of personal identity. People who would consider the second word in "Master Darling" to be grossly disrespectful to the majesty of the first, or be outraged by the fact that CM would be calling him Master at all, when the relationship is measured in weeks rather than months or years.

And then there are those who gather for events that seem (to me) to be sort of elaborate forms of group roleplay. Fetish attire required, Sir & Ma'am not optional, etc.

There are a lot of people out there who seem to thrive on these types of organized BDSM group dynamics. True, some display a sense of alienation when you speak to them privately. But I think it would be presumptuous to make that assumption for the majority of the group overall.

With regard to the idea of people like us as cats not herded, my question is: Why herd the cats? My observation is that organized groups are always political and petty - no matter what interest or activity forms the basis thereof.

 

[Kajira Callista]

What the hell does "fitting in" even mean to you?

I dunno. I dont want to fit in, it feels like a not right thing for me if that makes sense. As for fitting in here...I'm kinda that girl in the dark corner observing everything and i like it that way. *shrugs* I suppose I am weird.

 

[Puman]

Since I don't really 'define' myself as such, it is really difficult for me to figure out whether I fit in or not. I honestly don't know.

Speaking strictly on BDSM and these boards: I try not to get too hung up on labels and definitions (because I've learned that just when you think you've nailed something down, a new experience can throw you right of the water, so as you grow, you change), which has made it really difficult to 'belong' to any particular label/group within the community.

I don't worry too much about it though and just rely (perhaps mistakenly) on people being honest and telling me if I'm barking up the wrong tree/annoying them etc...

With regards to trying to fit in, I can say that if a shoe does not fit me, I will not wear it and I will not suffer through blisters to try and make it fit, no matter how nice the shoe....

 

[shy slave]

Good questions ADR.

I don't feel I have 'fitted' into most of my life.

My family, my schooling and later the jobs I took.

It was a strange sense of being outside of what everyone around me was involved with.

Many people over the last 40 years have told me I am intense & difficult. I have heard those words so often I cannot discount them. Even Andante used them.

Finding BDSM changed some of that.
My main premise for wishing to be a slave is to give me a feeling of belonging. An elevated sense of 'the right place at the right time.'

Yet, within the local BDSM community I don't feel I fit in. I want to, but I don't.
I have been to local munches and ones further afield. The people fall pretty much into the groups JM described. I am not sure where on the scale I am with some of the people I meet.

I think I feel more at home in Lit than I do in many other places in my life, which, on reflection saddens me.
Not because of any other reason than online life does at times seem more real than real life.

Some years ago I had a manager who I bonded with instantly, we had the same intensity and belief systems regarding our job. That feeling that conversations with him gave me, is replicated time and again, on Lit.
A sense that people do understand what you are saying, or if they don't, they speak up and say so. All without a feeling of isolation from the group.

I am fairly self contained. I have very few hobbies (OK, maybe I don't actually have any hobbies), and I am happy with that.
I no longer seek to 'fit in' but accept that as long as I am happy with the situation, then that is enough.

One day I would like to feel I belonged, as I did before. But I am realistic and understand that nothing can be replicated in an identical way as before. People change and in time I will want a sense of belonging that suits the person I become, not the person I was.

 

[shy slave]

I'm getting tea!!! Authentic English tea, the real stuff!!! I asked shy to bring me some.

OMG... I can't wait to meet shy...

And I cannot wait to meet you.

The next two and a half weeks cannot shift quickly enough.

I am so damned excited!

As to where you fit in......thats easy, right in my arms so we can cry all over each other

 

[CutieMouse]

*****

 

[doveofserenity]

"It's your own insecurities reading too much into it" bullshit.

What the hell does "fitting in" even mean to you?

First off, IMHO; everyone is an individual. We all have our own "nooks and crannies" that we fit into.

Like someone once told me when i first joined Lit, they thought i was from the "Old School Style of being Submissive". Just because i was shy and kept a lot to myself since i had only been on Lit a few weeks.

At first that really aggravated me, because this person didnt really know me that well. But then i got to thinking about it; and in some ways i am "Old School". i was raised to be polite to people, and when MasterB and i were together, i was trained by Him in what i now see as some of the "Old School" ways.

Such as not automatically throwing myself into the full midst of a new group, and silently (most of the time) staying in the background, observing and waiting until i felt at ease, unless He said to come forward.

So even though those words "Old School" upset me, i can now look back and say thank you to that person (no names needed to prevent drama) because it made me look back and realize that i am who i am, whether anyone else likes it, or understands it or not.

Here on Lit, i have made a few friends; that understand me and where i am coming from. And have helped me get past quite a bit lately. And to those few, i thank them with all my love.

But other than that, to each their own; and their SO's. Because we all are unique and individual. Not clones.

i still sit back a lot in a nook or cranny somewhere, observing; but when i feel i can offer help through words; or through some crazy connection on one of the threads; i jump in. But other than that; i am just lil "Old School" me. A sub that is an individual at this point of time. And tends to only reveal parts of myself when i need to "vent" or go crazy.

So {{{{Hugs}}}} to ADR, and don't feel your alone out there; a lot of us are not "cliqued".

 

[Netzach]

With regard to that first part, I honestly don't know. Over the years, I've popped into many BDSM clubs in which a whole hell of a lot of exhibitionists and voyeurs seemed to be having a rollicking good time.

I've also been exposed to groups that take their culture *very* seriously, and consider the rules & norms themselves to be a key part of personal identity. People who would consider the second word in "Master Darling" to be grossly disrespectful to the majesty of the first, or be outraged by the fact that CM would be calling him Master at all, when the relationship is measured in weeks rather than months or years.

And then there are those who gather for events that seem (to me) to be sort of elaborate forms of group roleplay. Fetish attire required, Sir & Ma'am not optional, etc.

There are a lot of people out there who seem to thrive on these types of organized BDSM group dynamics. True, some display a sense of alienation when you speak to them privately. But I think it would be presumptuous to make that assumption for the majority of the group overall.

With regard to the idea of people like us as cats not herded, my question is: Why herd the cats? My observation is that organized groups are always political and petty - no matter what interest or activity forms the basis thereof.

1. Herd the cats because lots of claws and lots of teeth are the only thing that really large dogs have to respect.But I guess the necessity for this has a lot to do with how out, marginal and precarious one oneself actually is. I'm not as much of either of those as a lot of people more active, but, yeah, I think NCSF GMSMA and the like are the point of social organization, not nitpicking one another for street cred till no one wants to look at another perv any more, which is almost where I'm at.

2, Honestly, I've met people who have encountered the kinds of groups you go on to post about, but most of the ones I've actually gotten involved with are much much less about their true way than a lot of online communities. If anything, RL groups err in the direction of wanting more...whoever, women, queers, people of color, Dommes, boys, whoever isn't showing up, but erring in not being *relevant* to those communities and not knowing how to get out of their own reference frames enough to outreach. Not actively giving the cold shoulder, necessarily.

But as to your last point, yes, all subcultures are essentially the same. Identical really. Lesbians, artists, trekkies, chiropractors, any hotel convention in the world can be overlaid atop another one and you have the same thing. I've had less "oh wow, someone can be a great writer about D/s and a personal MESS" because I know that from GLBT activism.

 

[Quint]

.............

 

[Netzach]

I'm trying to hide how very much I want you to call me stupid. Does that count as a crush?

Haha! If stupid is as stupid does sadly you have failed again.

 

[intothewoods]

So I ask the following: How and where do you (rhetorically speaking) feel you would fit in? What do you feel like you need to do in order to fit in? How important is fitting in to you?

What the hell does "fitting in" even mean to you?

I've only relatively recently discovered by kink, and more recently start attending my local bdsm group events. Somewhere in the middle I got separated, and my world kind of fell apart.

So, holding on to what is safe and normal to me has become so important. I keep reaching for people, explanations, ideas that tell me you can be kinky and "normal" (whatever that means, but more or less, responsible, gainfully employed or in school, a good parent, etc.). In my local group, and here to a certain extent, I realized I've been looking for people like me, and becoming upset when various people I meet turn out to be different.

For example, I had all of this anxiety and weird feelings towards a couple I'd met with a kid close in age to mine. I was chatting with the husband, and I finally realized that I was uncomfortable because they weren't monogamous, and what that was about was not their choices, but my longing to find someone like me: professional Jewish parents of a kid, monogamous. I have everything but the last part, lol. I want them to be just like me so I can feel like, it's okay that I'm like this. I will still be "me" in all other respects.

I'm starting to let this go now, but I mention it because that's why I've wanted to find somewhere I fit in so desperately. Because right now it's kind of scary for me, in truth, and it would be less scary if I knew there was someone just like me that made it through.

 

[EmpressFi]

I dont feel I fit in anywhere really.. always have felt kinda like that odd person out..

but Malin loves me and Master loves me .. for who I am.. I have a few close friends who know this side of me..and a few close friends who dont..and that's ok that they dont.. and I've made a few friends here who are becoming close friends...

I'm me.. I'm a submissive..and as Nh reminded me... it doesnt matter what kind of submissive anyone else thinks I am.. as long as Master feels I'm a good submissive for him..

I'll try to remember that on days when I feel like I'm a little kid begging to be let inside with the cool kids...

 

[JMohegan]

1. Herd the cats because lots of claws and lots of teeth are the only thing that really large dogs have to respect.But I guess the necessity for this has a lot to do with how out, marginal and precarious one oneself actually is. I'm not as much of either of those as a lot of people more active, but, yeah, I think NCSF GMSMA and the like are the point of social organization, not nitpicking one another for street cred till no one wants to look at another perv any more, which is almost where I'm at.

Oh, THAT kind of herd. Yes, they are an absolute necessity - from small community activist groups right on up to the ACLU.

I believe very strongly in a variety of causes, but to be honest my participation in activist groups (of all kinds) involves *very* limited social contact at all.

Give me a stack of flyers, and I'll stuff mailboxes. Ask me to give a speech in a context I find appropriate, and I will. Give me the time of the rally, and I'll march. Tell me where to send the check, and I'll be quite generous.

But ask me to sit down with a group of people in regular meetings to plan all that stuff, and I'm gonna say no. I'm just not a political creature, in the arguing, negotiating, jockeying for position in the organization, or putting up with petty bullshit sense.

 

[Mazuri]

I rarely feel like I fit in anywhere, especially here. I am at a stage where I'm exploring, but can't really explore much due to circumstances outside my control. This puts, and keeps, me firmly in the "outside looking in" category as I have curiosity, but no real experience and no way to obtain any for the next few months. Combine that with being a very quiet, shy, introverted type who doesn't like to intrude on others' conversations and in-jokes and I rarely get over feeling that way.

 

[Netzach]

Oh, THAT kind of herd. Yes, they are an absolute necessity - from small community activist groups right on up to the ACLU.

I believe very strongly in a variety of causes, but to be honest my participation in activist groups (of all kinds) involves *very* limited social contact at all.

Give me a stack of flyers, and I'll stuff mailboxes. Ask me to give a speech in a context I find appropriate, and I will. Give me the time of the rally, and I'll march. Tell me where to send the check, and I'll be quite generous.

But ask me to sit down with a group of people in regular meetings to plan all that stuff, and I'm gonna say no. I'm just not a political creature, in the arguing, negotiating, jockeying for position in the organization, or putting up with petty bullshit sense.

Yeah, snore. I play OK with others on a limited basis.

 

[graceanne]

I'm taking a brief break from treating for lice A-FUCKING-GAIN, so I didn't have a chance to read all the replys, so if I repeat what anyone else says, I apologize.

I don't fit in. I never have. The difference between when I was a kid and now is I've learned not to care about the fact that I fit in. I guess it's a matter of acceptance.

 

[Bandit58]

I've never felt I fitted in anywhere frankly As a kid I was the quiet shy one who studied hard and always got good marks (which sparked bullying which made me hide myself away more). I liked David Bowie when everyone else was in to the Bay City Rollers I was a closet metal head. I read horror novels and gory murder mysteries.

I married at 19. I had two great kids. But never felt I fitted in with the farmers and their wives, who all played squash or tennis (BORING), whose kids all did dancing swimming gymnastics et al (mine weren't interested), who had their own little cliques. Even when I took the kids to playgroup I always felt the odd one out, like I didn't belong.

When I left my husband it became even worse - suddenly I was seen as single and a threat to these farmers' wives...nothing was said but I felt even more cut off than before The best thing I ever did was leave that area 4 years ago to come to Sydney. It's a big place and no one cares what you do or who you do it with.

I finally fit here. I've realised that I'm a sub and always have been. I love Master Gil and I've never felt so cherished. Sure there have been some confused moments along the way but I've grown in my submission over the last 4 years and I understand why some things happened in my life "before". I really think I'm happy for the first time ever

 

[Evil_Geoff]

I always feel like an odd duck... I've never _quite_ fit. Always awkward, shy, geeky... Until I was introduced to the BDSM realm the closest I've come to fitting in is in the SF/fantasy/comics fandom/gaming community. Because it was a great escape from the reality of feeling like I didn't fit in anywhere else in my life.

10 years ago someone took a chance on me and introduced me to their Online BDSM community. I felt more at home there than I had ever felt in any other community. From there I found The Sanctuary of a Dark Angel and the realtime BDSM/Leather community and I KNEW I had come home.

But even when feeling at home I can feel out of place, or odd, or out of sorts.

When with kinksters I know I am with family and even if I'm a strange bird in their eyes I know I'm considered family too, that I'm loved and cared for. God only knows why but I'm respected and looked up to.

And I'm still scratching my head wondering why submissives, bottoms and/or slaves want to play with me, or serve me. Or why Tops, Doms, real honest-to-goodness Masters want to come to demos or presentations I do. It's not like I'm a freaking genius or expert or nothing. Hell, I'm still damp behind my ears and learning this stuff too...

*shrugs*

But they do. People listen, people watch, they want _me_ to share something of myself with them. And it moves me.

Fuck.

I'm just a guy, a sadist, a freak with a raging beast locked inside. I know one special or important. It's who I am. But y'all seem to put up with me. My BDSM group puts up with me. There are other groups that invite me to come an share my limited knowledge with them so I guess they are putting up with me to.

I guess for me that's as much "fitting in" as I'll ever feel. I know I'm part of a bigger picture, never quite understanding why, but over the years I've come to know that it's true and accept that.

And you know something?

I'm glad that the other odd ducks seem to think I'm their kind of odd duck too.

 

[Homburg]

Or why Tops, Doms, real honest-to-goodness Masters want to come to demos or presentations I do. It's not like I'm a freaking genius or expert or nothing.

I've been talked to recently about doing a demo on ropework for the group that we joined recently. I was nodding and am cool with it (and am flattered by it), but I'm standing there thinking "Why me? I'm just some schlep that picked up on how to do this stuff in his off time."

I can easily see why someone would want to come to your demos, man. You sell yourself short here. But me? C'mon...

 

[marieR19]

WARNING: long rambling post ahead!


First and foremost: *HUGGGS* for ADR and BiBunny!

I definitely know what it's like to feel like you don't fit in, or don't know where exactly you fit in...

I love Lit dearly, and I love this community here and all the people here, but I admit sometimes I wonder just how much I "fit" here, and yeah there have been times when I feel like a fake and wonder if anyone thinks of me that way. I call myself a submissive because that's how I feel, that's "who I am" in my mind and my heart, but there are so many things about me that aren't submissive. And as for actual experience, beyond the few short spankings I had from my ex, I don't have any at all. And I don't think I will for a long time.

I really doubt that I fit in with the outside bdsm community, the RL community, at all. Which is one of the reason's I stay here at Lit, because even if I don't really "fit in", I feel okay about being here, I feel that I am at least sorta welcomed here. Even thinking about RL bdsm (munches, get-togethers, etc) makes me cringe, I know I wouldn't fit in at all there.

BDSM is a part of who I am, I have no doubts about that. But to what extent, I have no idea. I am not as submissive as I think I am, as I want to be, as I try to seem like I am, I know that. I am very much a sammy in certain ways, because I cannot let myself submit to someone in the ways that I want to, in the depth that I want to, even if I try. I am a submissive in my thoughts, in my feelings, in my fantasies, but when it comes to actually doing it I balk. And maybe that's simply because I'm inexperienced, I don't know know.

As I said before, I sometimes feel like I don't fit in here at all. Like I'm a total fake because I'm not in a bdsm relationship, heck I'm not in a relationship at all, and I don't see it happening anytime soon. I've never had much experience, and sometimes I feel like everyone must think I'm a fake. But Lit is the only place where I feel sorta-okay/safe about being a submissive (to whatever extent I am), so I try not to think about that.

As for my friends elsewhere, most of my online friends know, to some extent at least, about my bdsm-leanings. And that is where I am sooooo thankful for online-ness. This is stuff that I would probably not tell RL friends, but online I feel safer and more comfortable admitting who I really am, and my online friends are so supportive of me no matter what it is about. I may not "fit in" with the crowd in certain ways, but that is okay in the communities I frequent.

As for caring if I "fit in" or not, if you've read this long-ass post so far I'm sure you realize that I care. I care a lot. Which is actually kinda strange, because bdsm is the one thing that actually makes me care... when I came out as a lesbian, I embraced my sexuality and my differentness, and I LOVED being different, I loved not fitting in, and yeah for some strange quirky reason I even loved it when people made fun of me... Because it made me unique. But for some reason, within the bdsm community, I just want to fit in. Maybe it's not even so much that I want to fit in among others, but that I want to know WHAT/WHERE I am! I want to know, I want to stop second-guessing myself and feeling doubtful and doubting my submissiveness just because of my lack of experience and stuff... I want to know what I am.

I fantasize about being whipped, beaten, fucked hard, punished, etc etc, and I love it... But when it comes down to it I have no idea if I would like it or even tolerate it in RL. And then there are some other things, like the mental stuff, where I'm just like no freakin' way... And I know everyone's limits are different, but it makes me feel like I'm not a "real" submissive at all.

And my GOD this post is way too long. I'm sorry for rambling so much. This is what happens when I start thinking too much!!


Heather

 

[chauderlos]

As KC wrote:

(snip)...I'm kinda that girl in the dark corner observing everything and i like it that way. *shrugs* (snip)

Change "girl" into "boy" and you have me... couldn't have said it better.

I don't really fit into any BDSM community. Have very few experiences. My relationship is pure vanilla - rich, full flavored, but still vanilla. But still, I like to hang around and learn; mostly because if I was to move towards an "alternative lifestyle", it would be something along the lines of some kind or an other of BDSM. And because over the years I've found some food for thoughts from some conttributors.

As for fitting in ... I'd rather remain silent and have other think I'm dumb and stupid than speaking up and make certain I'm dumb and stupid.

 

[rida]

In r/l I can fit basically everywhere, but I rarely fit in somewhere.
But I am ok with it most of the time.

I grew up always being different, not because of anything I had done or chosen to be, but just because of something I happened to be (half Japanese in a place where everybody could trace their ancestor down and not end up farther than the next town). And growing up bi-cultural made me even more different. Add to that my belief in poly (didn't know the name back then), my being incredibly rational and yet believe in reincarnation, destiny and KI and even without BDSM you get an odd duck! LOL

Now let's add BDSM in the mix, and since I am very new at it, I am still figuring out where I stand. Maybe somebody noticed that I introduced myself, than edited the post because I figured that I couldn't fit in if I didn't knew who/what/where I was. But than I realized that if I was going to wait until I knew where I stood on the BDSM spectrum to introduce myself and start posting, it would have likely never happened.

So here I am, secretly wishing I could be as articulate as CutieMouse or Netzach, stalking Homburg-sama and LittleJade, fascinated by Evil_Geoff, RJMaster, Shankara, Marquis, Luna_Wolf, Writer_Dom, wishing to talk with an even longer list of names and learning a lot from basically everybody.

Do I feel like I fit on Lit? It is too early to say, but probably will not. Plus I am in the wrong timezone, the language barrier is always there, and my r/l experience is limited. But do I feel welcome? Yes. Am I liking it here? Yes. Did I get the chance to chat/PM with interesting people? Yes. Do I feel ignored at times? Yes. Do I feel like I do not fit any definition? Yes, but that is a given so it does not bother me.

(I usually end up just being a lurker, but for some reason ... here I want to post, to put myself out there and on the line.)

 

[Homburg]

I personally wonder at the apparent consternation inexperienced folks have with posting much because they don't have experience. Okay, you don't have experience. Don't post like you do, and you'll be fine. Inexperience is a state that everyone has been in at one point or another. Ask questions! Some of the best discussions on here have been started because someone stepped up and asked a question even if they might've felt it a bit silly.

And I don't say this as someone with loads of experience. I say this as someone who has asked questions that I thought were kind of silly, and got some good discussions going as a result.

 

[Netzach]

There is always always always someone whose SM experience level blows yours out of the water. No matter who you are. You will never be an expert in every single thing there is to be an expert on. I never considered myself an A level Domme, maybe a B+ level Domme if you stuck to the things I know well otherwise a B and even a C if you threw me in with a trampling and CBT hardcore person. No one does everything perfectly.

I think it's a *good* thing that I can still find people whose skills I'm madly jealous of 10 years into it.

 

[JMohegan]

I personally wonder at the apparent consternation inexperienced folks have with posting much because they don't have experience. Okay, you don't have experience. Don't post like you do, and you'll be fine. Inexperience is a state that everyone has been in at one point or another. Ask questions! Some of the best discussions on here have been started because someone stepped up and asked a question even if they might've felt it a bit silly.

And I don't say this as someone with loads of experience. I say this as someone who has asked questions that I thought were kind of silly, and got some good discussions going as a result.

The receptiveness of this board to the inexperienced seems to come and go in waves.

At certain times, and for reasons that are not always readily apparent, various people here will respond to questions with more or less polite versions of: "Good grief, we've been asked that a thousand times already, go read in the library (duh!) and come back when you've got something interesting to ask or say."

I understand why the same questions, asked over & over, deter one from responding multiple times. But actually pointing out that the question has been asked ad nauseam seems both unnecessary and a deterrent to the posting of queries from the inexperienced or new.