Which More Violent: Bible or Quran?

[DrDelirium]

Well apparently you do because if God stays the same, as Chris points out that would mean he doesn't change his mind and he obviously does because he changes the consequences of sin in the OT from performing sacrifice or having the community administer punishment, to saying "Let me take care of it when they die" in the NT. If God is the same forever he would never change his mind. If it was planned out previously that way then you're stuck trying to figure out why he didnt just go NT without the OT.

I am not a believer, but have had the interesting experience of studying some of the Medievals in some depth, and what I think you're missing here is that God is eternal. So, you see time in sequence, but God sees it all at once. Think of it like a movie on a strip of film. The entire movie is there, and never changes, but because you see only a frame at a time, you have the illusion of change. So one day you see God's pissy, angry side, and another you see God's loving, gentle side, and the next day He has you torn apart by bears for calling one of his prophets 'Baldy'. But from God's perspective this is all just one thing, and it's always the same.
Of course, one of the consequences of this is that everything is 'predestined,' in that it has already happened. Which makes sin an interesting proposition... Suffice it to say, there is always a piece of the puzzle you have to leave out to make the others fit.

 

[ChloeTzang]

Doc Savage has them both beat sideways.

Oh hell yeah. Have you read Phillip Jose Farmer's bio of Doc Savage?

 

[LincolnDuncan]

No bad mood, jealous, spiteful god. Those are characteristics of humans projected onto god. No devil, no hell, only god and the ignorance of god.

 

[DrDelirium]

Oh hell yeah. Have you read Phillip Jose Farmer's bio of Doc Savage?

No. I actually found Doc Savage unreadable. I think I came to him too late in life. My ex was a big fan. Farmer is probably better, maybe I'll check that out.

 

[Chris_Michael]

I am not a believer, but have had the interesting experience of studying some of the Medievals in some depth, and what I think you're missing here is that God is eternal. So, you see time in sequence, but God sees it all at once. Think of it like a movie on a strip of film. The entire movie is there, and never changes, but because you see only a frame at a time, you have the illusion of change. So one day you see God's pissy, angry side, and another you see God's loving, gentle side, and the next day He has you torn apart by bears for calling one of his prophets 'Baldy'. But from God's perspective this is all just one thing, and it's always the same.
Of course, one of the consequences of this is that everything is 'predestined,' in that it has already happened. Which makes sin an interesting proposition... Suffice it to say, there is always a piece of the puzzle you have to leave out to make the others fit.

So, god is a manic depressive who is equally forgiving and angry all at the same time? That's just as absurd as thinking that he changes over time.

Besides, can you demonstrate that time is some sort of dimension? Are you suggesting that time is the 4th, 5th, or 6th dimension? I'm no physicist, but I believe that is a myth.

 

[Chris_Michael]

Who cares? My sky wizard is better than yours.

1v1 Turn-based style battle.

 

[Chris_Michael]

I bet you have a tiny penis

I bet you do, too.

 

[DrDelirium]

So, god is a manic depressive who is equally forgiving and angry all at the same time? That's just as absurd as thinking that he changes over time.

Besides, can you demonstrate that time is some sort of dimension? Are you suggesting that time is the 4th, 5th, or 6th dimension? I'm no physicist, but I believe that is a myth.

I'm telling you what the early philosophers of the Catholic Church believed. They were trying very hard to resolve a series of contradictions that the basic dogma of Christianity, and its inheritance from Judaism, forced on them. I do not claim that they were successful. It's very hard to come up with a good explanation for an all powerful, all knowing creator creating evil and suffering. It's difficult to account for things like Free Will and Predestination at the same time. But they tried, really, really hard.

 

[JackLuis]

I just had the thought that maybe "Religion" is like the origin of "Gaming" where dogma is the "Rules" and "Winning" is dependent on how fucking crazy you can imagine the "World" to be?

 

[TheWhiteBull]

I just had the thought that maybe "Religion" is like the origin of "Gaming" where dogma is the "Rules" and "Winning" is dependent on how fucking crazy you can imagine the "World" to be?

Isnt that the Matrix?

 

[JackLuis]

Isnt that the Matrix?

Could be? I never watched it, or forgot?

 

[EternalFantasies]

I'd say "The Choirboys".

They're ruthless!

The Bible has many instances where god changes his mind. As a matter of fact, humans have changed god's mind. If we are using the Bible as an authority, then it's demonstrable that god is unstable. Otherwise, why would god have anger and jealousy, which are very destructible emotions.

It's part of the mystery. It's not something to rationalize. And unless you're on a spiritual path exploring with those set of eyes, things will seems irrational.

God also seems very insecure. Why does god want people to worship him if he's the most powerful being in the universe? If we are nothing but filthy rags, why does god value our "love" so much so that he is willing to punish us for the rest of eternity? Are we a danger to his other children? Are we a danger to him? Does it anger him that we choose to go about living a normal life without religion to the point where he wants us to suffer the most horrific pain for all time? And why did god trust humans, who have proven to be the most distrustful creature on the planet to spread the message from generation to generation. Obviously, the story was going to get used for power and greed. Obviously, the story would be skewed.

God wants you to worship him for your own good. You are punished for sins, wrongs that you do to others, or yourself, not for not following a religion.

Humans need God. Yes they will skew things which is represented by the temptations, evil, etc. concepts in the Bible.

God isn't trusting humans as much as he simply wants what's best for them.

Do these questions even remotely make you think that maybe this story is a complete bullshit story handed down generation after generation to keep people in check? There is nothing worse than fear. Fear will control people. And if that's how god works, it's not mysterious... it's psychopathic.

Perhaps it keeps people in "check". Especially when the communities where a few thousand at a time, they particularly needed to act wisely and constructively.

But that's not all the Bible. It's about our origins, creation, history and development.

Well apparently you do because if God stays the same, as Chris points out that would mean he doesn't change his mind and he obviously does because he changes the consequences of sin in the OT from performing sacrifice or having the community administer punishment, to saying "Let me take care of it when they die" in the NT. If God is the same forever he would never change his mind. If it was planned out previously that way then you're stuck trying to figure out why he didnt just go NT without the OT.

The Word of God was written by His prophets as they understood it. So while the nature of the law doesn't change as God doesn't change, but the consequences of going against that nature can evolve.

Mind you, even if the consequences remain the same, they can too be, misunderstood.

As they are in the Quran too btw.

So I'll re-state my original statement; it is not the Quran that's more violent, its the consequences of the religion called Islam that are.

 

[jaF0]

Who's more violent? Yosemite Sam or Wiley Coyote?

 

[EternalFantasies]

Neither.

The framer who writes them is.

 

[Iceprincess12]

Whichever one knocks out the most teeth.

 

[Chris_Michael]

It's part of the mystery. It's not something to rationalize. And unless you're on a spiritual path exploring with those set of eyes, things will seems irrational.

But when we start to rationalize it, even as a person of faith, the entire thing begins to unravel.
Let's just entertain the idea that people evolved over millions of years. Wouldn't it make sense that our brains would be wired not to die? Wouldn't it make sense for us to try to latch onto anything possible to think we'll "live forever"?

God wants you to worship him for your own good. You are punished for sins, wrongs that you do to others, or yourself, not for not following a religion.


So, god created man for what purpose exactly? What was he trying to accomplish? Why would he create a creature so prone to fail? As a species, we didn't even make it past the first two humans before we fucked up. And then, Cain and Abel fucked up too. And then we all fucked up so badly that he just flooded the entire world to restart. Then, we fucked up so bad that he destroyed two cities. He turned a woman into a grain of salt for merely looking back at what was happening to her home. Is that forgiving? Is that love? It doesn't seem like it to me. That seems rather cruel to do to his creation.


Humans need God. Yes they will skew things which is represented by the temptations, evil, etc. concepts in the Bible.

God isn't trusting humans as much as he simply wants what's best for them.


Humans need god? God wants the best for us? Look around the world. People who are genuine believers of god, living all across the globe, are faced with tragedies on a constant basis. People beg and beg and beg god to intervene yet he mysteriously stays idle and allows for such misery to continue. A dying child, a diagnosis of cancer, a military wife losing her husband in war... god merely watches, or rather, doesn't watch since he has turn away from the world (isn't that what the Bible says? That god cannot even face us?)


Perhaps it keeps people in "check". Especially when the communities where a few thousand at a time, they particularly needed to act wisely and constructively.

But that's not all the Bible. It's about our origins, creation, history and development.

I was told that it's our love for god that will save us, not our fear of hell. We are to fear god and we are to love god. But I remember fearing hell and punishment. To this very day, I still feel it. Because of my upbringing, I have an instilled fear that when I die, I will burn in hell forever. And I'm an atheist! Why would I become an atheist if I know what I face in the afterlife?

Well, I believe I was brainwashed. And I'm very very VERY angry about it. I'm very mad, not at the general Christian population,
but at the teachers of Christianity. I have sat through many fire and brimstone sermons, which scared me so badly that I would say the Sinner's Prayer daily. I have probably said the Sinner's Prayer hundreds, if not thousands, of times in my entire life. And even when I did believe, I wasn't confident that if I died, I'd go to heaven.

Why would god allow me, a genuine believe at the time, to suffer such fear when I had already admitted my wrongdoing and admitted that I sinned? I admitted that I believed and that I needed Jesus to go to heaven? Why would god allow me to dwell on that if I was, in fact, saved. And to this very day, I still fear it. I hate it. I fucking hate it. It really pisses me off.

Just to be clear, I'm not an atheist that hates hearing "Bless you" and "Merry Christmas." I even say those things myself just because it seems right for the season. Like I said, I don't hold a grudge against any particular Christian population, but I'm very angry at people who preach this shit to children. I learned at the age of 12.

I think there is good reason to try to rationalize the situation. As a Christian, you are faced with a lot of burdens. You face the burden of spreading the gospel to people who don't want to hear it. You are faced with the burden of "hating the sin," which causes you to see people as "sinful" when in reality, they're just people.

I will say this, even though the thought of hell sticks with me, the day I let go of religion, it was like tons of weight coming off my shoulders. It felt fucking amazing. I wanted to walk up to a bunch of gay people and yell, "WHO WANTS TO GET MARRIED!?" It was great. You don't understand the burden you live under as a Christian until you let it go.

 

[TheWhiteBull]

It's part of the mystery. It's not something to rationalize. And unless you're on a spiritual path exploring with those set of eyes, things will seems irrational.

The only objectively observable world is the physical one. Therefore rational explanations for the way the world works are the only thing we can discuss in ways that can be actually demonstrated. Any claim about the supernatural os unprovable and therefore any claim about it is equally valid.

God wants you to worship him for your own good. You are punished for sins, wrongs that you do to others, or yourself, not for not following a religion.

Except that being punished for not being a believer is what it says does happen, so saying that that doesn't happen is just claiming thay the Bible isnt true.

Humans need God. Yes they will skew things which is represented by the temptations, evil, etc. concepts in the Bible.

God isn't trusting humans as much as he simply wants what's best for them.

Except that that is only true for those who he "foreknew" or tyose whose hearts he did not force to "harden against him".

Perhaps it keeps people in "check". Especially when the communities where a few thousand at a time, they particularly needed to act wisely and constructively.

But that's not all the Bible. It's about our origins, creation, history and development.

No shit. All laws, religious or secular, are meant to keep people in check.

The Word of God was written by His prophets as they understood it. So while the nature of the law doesn't change as God doesn't change, but the consequences of going against that nature can evolve.

Mind you, even if the consequences remain the same, they can too be, misunderstood.

Riiiight. So what youre saying is God is perfect and all-powerful but incapable of actually explaining himself. Hes like a socially awkward genius.

As they are in the Quran too btw.

So I'll re-state my original statement; it is not the Quran that's more violent, its the consequences of the religion called Islam that are.

Except that we've been talking about supernatural consequences in which case theyre the same. If you start talking about current real world consequences then yeah.

 

[EternalFantasies]

I think there is good reason to try to rationalize the situation. As a Christian, you are faced with a lot of burdens. You face the burden of spreading the gospel to people who don't want to hear it. You are faced with the burden of "hating the sin," which causes you to see people as "sinful" when in reality, they're just people.

I will say this, even though the thought of hell sticks with me, the day I let go of religion, it was like tons of weight coming off my shoulders. It felt fucking amazing. I wanted to walk up to a bunch of gay people and yell, "WHO WANTS TO GET MARRIED!?" It was great. You don't understand the burden you live under as a Christian until you let it go.

it is painful to reply when you answer within the quote.

1. Yes, of course we're wired that way, and a need to survive, and/or a want to do so for ever, doesn't disprove what I said but goes in parallel.

2. Why look into the OT testament so much? even the NT, the only books one needs to be concerned with are the four books. Drop the rest; and yes including Paul.

3. There was a man escaping a major flood and he climbed on his roof, and the water was rising. He held to a pole on his roof and prayed to God. The rescuers came throwing him a floating device, he said 'no God will save me'. They came back with a boat and asked him to jump, he said 'no God will save me. they came back in a helicopter and threw him a rope to grab on, he said 'no God will save me.
The water rose and he drowned. When he got to Heaven, he complained to God "Why didn't you do anything, why didn't you save me from drowning, I prayed, I begged...". God disgruntled replied: "I sent you a floating device, a boat, a helicopter, and you did nothing. So ok, welcome then come on in!!".


For the rest: The priests aren't always good quality rather the opposite. you grew in fear, well use it for your advantage today.

What one needs to know is that Jesus already died for all our sins and saved us. The other thing you need to know is that no matter what you think your wrongs or sins may have been, His compassion and capacity for forgiveness is far greater. Nothing cannot be forgiven, when one wants to be.

The other thing about what you wrote in the end, you need to know, if a community of a few thousand was trying to thrive, and men wanted to marry, fear of extinction would be great for obvious reasons.
God said go and multiply etc and preserve this way, etc. today, we're quite numerous, so, enjoy; I suppose. No where in the four Bibles does it forbid it, but I'd not call it marriage for it is not. The term is religious, and for major reasons that has to do with many things including creation. Two gay men can't create a baby by themselves.


My guess is this will stay with you. You don't seem to have let this matter go, you're right here debating me about it. The pope opened the door for you now, and you could take on this differently, and feel better.

 

[LincolnDuncan]

Where is the end the world of matter and what is beyond?

 

[EternalFantasies]

The only objectively observable world is the physical one. Therefore rational explanations for the way the world works are the only thing we can discuss in ways that can be actually demonstrated. Any claim about the supernatural os unprovable and therefore any claim about it is equally valid.

It requires contemplation, experience, imagination, and a lot of scientific study as well.

Except that being punished for not being a believer is what it says does happen, so saying that that doesn't happen is just claiming thay the Bible isnt true.

To reduce the amount of give and take, please insert from the get-go where it says that.

Except that that is only true for those who he "foreknew" or tyose whose hearts he did not force to "harden against him"

.

Why? What makes you say that?

No shit. All laws, religious or secular, are meant to keep people in check.

Not here, no. The Bible is about soooo much more that restrictions to keep you in check. It's a guide, and one particularly useful to people in older times.

We are living a period of advancement within 50-60 years, more than any human lived in history - ever. So, its quite hard to see in our current times how the Bible is useful. But just before the 40's? and back until minus five or six thousand, law of Moses came as some guide, something to rely on, anything, instead of always having to wonder, and to follow so many Gods, etc.

Riiiight. So what youre saying is God is perfect and all-powerful but incapable of actually explaining himself. Hes like a socially awkward genius.

Perhaps

Except that we've been talking about supernatural consequences in which case theyre the same. If you start talking about current real world consequences then yeah.

Here's the OP's article: "It took just two minutes for his software to read and analyse the three books".

What we're talking about TWB, is a superficial, literal interpretation by a computer counting the recurrence of a particular emotion, as follows:

"Killing and destruction are referenced slightly more often in the New Testament (2.8%) than in the Quran (2.1%), but the Old Testament clearly leads—more than twice that of the Quran—in mentions of destruction and killing (5.3%)."

So nothing "supernatural" about what the article is saying, and i haven't seen you mention any of the kind too.

Which brings me back to my post, number 40.

 

[sr71plt]

I'm curious, EF, you've several times here told us what God thinks and wants us to do. Were you thinking that she actually speaks to you and considers you her spokesperson?

 

[PrincepsCyberius]

Not that the scientific method is given much credence in the Trump world, but here's the result of a scientific study of which book promotes more violence, the Bible or the Quran. Conclusion? The Bible shows both more anger and less trust than the Quran does. And when you take the New Testament out, the Old Testament is twice as violent as the Quran.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...han-quran-text-analysis-reveals-a6863381.html

So, the next time you Trumpettes lay the claim of Islam being violent at its foundation, especially in contrast with Christianity . . .

First of all, the study is meaningless when it comes to comparing Islam and Christianity. The valid comparison would be between the Koran and just the New Testament which, by its own words, attributed to and possibly spoken by Jesus, supplants with a peaceful philosophy the covenant on which the violence of the Old Testament was based.

Then again, what does it matter which book is more violent?

Historically, Islam has always been the most violent of the three major monotheistic religions.

That includes during the Crusades, which started, you should know and may recall, because Muslim armies had militarily conquered the eastern part of the Christian Byzantine Empire.

Again, history is far less important than what is happening in the real world now. Only Islam has a significant faction that believes and practices unprovoked violence as a manner of spreading their faith. There are not Christians setting up strict theocracies by conquest and in them committing mass murder against those it views as infidels and apostates. Only parts of Islam are doing that.

 

[DrDelirium]

Then again, what does it matter which book is more violent?

Indeed, what does it matter which religion is more violent? They are both violent. In the West it has become unfashionable to wage war for Christianity per se, but God- and this obviously the Christian God- is called upon to support the wars of the Christian nations. When it comes to body counts, the Christian nations are way ahead, even though they no longer overtly claim to be killing for Christ.
Religion is a plague. Some strains are less deadly than others, but we'd better off without any of them.

 

[sr71plt]

First of all, the study is meaningless when it comes to comparing Islam and Christianity. The valid comparison would be between the Koran and just the New Testament which, by its own words, attributed to and possibly spoken by Jesus, supplants with a peaceful philosophy the covenant on which the violence of the Old Testament was based.

All of the Christian churches I know of (and I've worked extensively in multiple Protestant denominations) accept both the Old and New Testaments as their authority--at least until they are closely questioned and then, like you are trying to do, they often get mumble mouthed about the Old Testament part.

 

[JackLuis]

I doubt the violence of literature. Most any religion can be violent if the"Believer" is an assshole who wants everyone else to do as he says. It is fanaticism that causes the violence not the religion.