2009 Survivor Literotica Poetry Challenge: Planning & Plotting

[champagne1982]

The way I see it the scoring will go:

3 points for every unique trigger poem written
1 point for each additional poem written under that trigger after 150 first round points to a maximum of 5 points per trigger
___________________________________________________________

This comes to a minimum of 150 poems, 75 of which must be formula driven by the list of 25 acceptable forms using each form 3 times.

Then you are a survivor...

The winner will be the person who continues to fill trigger slots with additional poems (as long as they maintain the ratio of 1:1 required formulae (through the list of forms once) to free verse and go through the list of triggers, once each, per additional rounds).

The way I plan on playing is to write 75 formula poems, (three times through the form list, top to bottom, playing 25 favoured triggers 3 times) and then write 75 free verse, meaning whatever I want to write, really (using the remaining 25 triggers not already filled with forms and then replaying the trigger list top to bottom). It's nice to dream, good to plan and fantastic to actually succeed.

 

[champagne1982]

I suggest cranking them out, steadily onward and edit at leisure. You have a year to play survivor 2009 and a lifetime to edit.

 

[Tzara]

OK, it seems to me that part of the issue is that some people feel that at least some of the forms in Lauren's proposed list are particularly difficult or, as Angie put it, "arcane."

Anyone want to mention which forms they are concerned about and why they are nervous about them so we can discuss them?

 

[Angeline]

OK, it seems to me that part of the issue is that some people feel that at least some of the forms in Lauren's proposed list are particularly difficult or, as Angie put it, "arcane."

Anyone want to mention which forms they are concerned about and why they are nervous about them so we can discuss them?

I would be willing to lay money that what freaks people out about form poems are the metrical requirements. It's easy enough to figure out a rhyme scheme or a repetition pattern, but people get crazy when trying to figure out an iamb or a trochee or a dactyl and on and on. The concept of metrics and "feet to a line" is hard for many people. It has always been the hardest part of any particular form for me, that's for sure.

However, if I could convey one thing about how to make writing form poems more accessible, it would be this: If you want to learn a form, the best way to do it is to read poems in the form in question and think about the sound of them as if they're music. When I wrote that first sonnet, I didn't have a clue about iambic pentameter or stressed and unstressed syllables, but I went and read this most famous of Shakespeare's sonnets:

Shall I compare thee to a Summer's day?
Thou art more lovely and more temperate:
Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May,
And Summer's lease hath all too short a date:
Sometime too hot the eye of heaven shines,
And oft' is his gold complexion dimm'd;
And every fair from fair sometime declines,
By chance or nature's changing course untrimm'd:
But thy eternal Summer shall not fade
Nor lose possession of that fair thou owest;
Nor shall Death brag thou wanderest in his shade,
When in eternal lines to time thou growest:
So long as men can breathe, or eyes can see,
So long lives this, and this gives life to thee.

And I realized that if I listened to the rhythm of a line and heard it the way I hear music, I could take out the words and put in new ones, my own. Eureka! And I swear, if I do that with any form that flummoxes me at first, I get it right. Well, mostly.

And there's another point about form poems, perhaps the most important, imho. If you're writing a form poem and you have the choice of (a) writing a word or phrase or line that you know is really good but doesn't fit the form; or (b) writing a line that is less good but fits the form, choose (a). The sonnet would never have evolved to still be viable hundreds of years after its invention if people always went for fitting words precisely into the form.

Ok, I rambled again, but I am very interested in hearing what forms people think are really hard. Is is any form you haven't written yet (my criterion) or something else? But I betcha I'm right: people don't like the rhythm/meter thing. A good clear explanation of it would make many forms more accessible.

 

[Safe_Bet]

But I betcha I'm right: people don't like the rhythm/meter thing. A good clear explanation of it would make many forms more accessible.

I love you Ange.

Proper meter requires an in-depth knowledge of VooDoo and I am all out of chicken feet! I never got it, I don't get it and no matter how many poems I read, I prolly ain't gonna get it!

 

[Angeline]

I love you Ange.

Proper meter requires an in-depth knowledge of VooDoo and I am all out of chicken feet! I never got it, I don't get it and no matter how many poems I read, I prolly ain't gonna get it!

I love you, too. And I fucking hate meter in poetry. I do it, but I no likee!

 

[UnderYourSpell]

It's funny I was going to mention music earlier on

 

[Liar]

I would be willing to lay money that what freaks people out about form poems are the metrical requirements.

Not at all. But that's me. Give me a rhythm or a rhyme, and I'll fill it with anything I have in my vocabulary that fits. I can't use any word, but from all the words that do work, I'm free to choose whichever I want.

Poems that chooses the actual words and phrases for me is what bugs the snot outta me. Sestinas and <something>nelles are the ones I remember the names of. But I'm sure there are others.

 

[Liar]

I wrote my last post, and as soon as I hit the Submit button, I realized what it is I dislike about it. It isn't, to me, what poetry is about. Which is to express ideas in as effective ways as possible.

Instead, it's Soduko. But with words. Kind of like anagramming. Nothing wrong with it per se, but... well... just something else.

 

[Tzara]

I would be willing to lay money that what freaks people out about form poems are the metrical requirements. It's easy enough to figure out a rhyme scheme or a repetition pattern, but people get crazy when trying to figure out an iamb or a trochee or a dactyl and on and on. The concept of metrics and "feet to a line" is hard for many people. It has always been the hardest part of any particular form for me, that's for sure.

Metrics are certainly a major part of the problem, especially for those forms in which the meter is particularly important, like the double dactyl (which is an especially difficult form, I think). If you look at the attempts people wrote in Bijou's Higgledy Piggeldy thread (you can get to it from the post on Double Dactyl in the Thread of Forms thread), the meter is not exact in a good share of the poems. It's a difficult thing to hear and get right.

Then, undoubtedly, Turco's (and my) talk about metrical feet and iambs and spondees and crap sounds like I'm trying to teach a class in nuclear physics or something.

The good thing is that most of the forms merely say something like "should be in a consistent meter" or "usually are written in iambic pentameter" which allows for some flexibility. Even when the pros are writing a fixed meter, they usually vary it a bit.

However, if I could convey one thing about how to make writing form poems more accessible, it would be this: If you want to learn a form, the best way to do it is to read poems in the form in question and think about the sound of them as if they're music. When I wrote that first sonnet, I didn't have a clue about iambic pentameter or stressed and unstressed syllables, but I went and read this most famous of Shakespeare's sonnets:

Shall I compare thee to a Summer's day?
Thou art more lovely and more temperate:
Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May,
And Summer's lease hath all too short a date:
Sometime too hot the eye of heaven shines,
And oft' is his gold complexion dimm'd;
And every fair from fair sometime declines,
By chance or nature's changing course untrimm'd:
But thy eternal Summer shall not fade
Nor lose possession of that fair thou owest;
Nor shall Death brag thou wanderest in his shade,
When in eternal lines to time thou growest:
So long as men can breathe, or eyes can see,
So long lives this, and this gives life to thee.

This is a good example both for the reason you indicate and because the poem isn't wholly in exact iambic pentameter, at least as I scan it.

Most of the lines are, like

Shall I compare thee to a Summer's day?
Thou art more lovely and more temperate:
Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May,
And Summer's lease hath all too short a date:​

where the boldface type is on the stressed syllables. An iambic foot is two syllables, where the first is unstressed and the second stressed (like today), so these lines all have exactly five iambs in them—hence, iambic pentameter.

But this line

And oft' is his gold complexion dimm'd;​

is different. For one thing, it's short a syllable, assuming you pronounce "complexion" as "com·plek·shun" (that makes nine syllables in the line instead of ten). It's also not pure iambic, as there are two stressed syllables next to each other ("his" and "gold").

Or these lines

But thy eternal Summer shall not fade
Nor lose possession of that fair thou owest;
Nor shall Death brag thou wanderest in his shade, <--- Note that I am assuming "wanderest" is pronounced like "wand'rest".
When in eternal lines to time thou growest:​

where both the second and fourth lines in this sequence have an extra, unstressed syllable at the end of the line for a total of 11 syllables (just to confuse you, that makes both of these examples of feminine end-rhymes ).

And, line three has an inverted iamb in it ("Death brag"), I think.

The point is, there is flexibility in most metrical requirements. You don't just march rigidly along with military precision.

 

[Liar]

The point is, there is flexibility in most metrical requirements. You don't just march rigidly along with military precision.

True that. Especially since it's also so much up to the reader.

For instance, the line: Thou art more lovely and more temperate. I can't, even if I stretch my brain to it's limit, prononce "temperate" with a stressed last syllable.

 

[Angeline]

I was too lazy to quote all of you, but T-zed and Liar, your points about poetry rarely adhering to the the form rigidly is very important (and hence my point in my post about always going with what works best in your poem as opposed to what the meter requires).

Annie, I always think about music when writing form poetry, that is how the sound of a particular metric is like music. I study a poem already written in the form and even take the words out to sing "dah dee doh dah..." or however the metric goes for a form until I get the sound of it in my head. Then I come up with words that fit the sound. S_B, you should give this method a try. I am no musician, but this makes meter easier for me to grasp. If I try to intellectualize the formula of a metric, I'll never get it right. If I get it in my head like music, I have a fighting chance. I hope this makes sense.

Liar, I know what you mean about rhyme and repetition schemes. Writing poems that require them feels less poetic to me and more like doing a puzzle. I've always thought that. Otoh I think that writing in forms is a good way to practice writing poetry because you are forced to work harder to come up with words that rhyme or make the repetitions sensical. The process, to me, teaches a kind of discipline that I can then apply to free verse. Just my approach, but I believe practicing by writing forms has made my free verse better.

 

[Safe_Bet]

GREAT. I'm a white chick with a tin ear and I'm out of chicken feet.

Flexibility is wonderful (especially when it comes to rythmn and meter). We just need to make sure that the rules reflect that. Otherwise, we could end up with the contentious shit that the have going now in the Story Survivor, where stories from months ago are getting "moved" or disqualified because the didn't meet the specific requirements.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

Sigh ........ when I first came here I got told to stop rhyming!!!!

 

[Tzara]

True that. Especially since it's also so much up to the reader.

We all have accents, even the English.

For instance, the line: Thou art more lovely and more temperate. I can't, even if I stretch my brain to it's limit, prononce "temperate" with a stressed last syllable.

Well, my dictionary might agree with you to the point that the word "temperate" is trisyllabic, with an initial stressed syllable. But for me, that just means as you read the line, you accentuate things slightly differently. It's a poem, you know, not prose, and as such it comes out pretty cleanly for me as tem' per ate' (i.e., strong emphasis on the first syllable, then an unstressed syllable, and finally a minor stress on the third syllable, at least in the context of Shakespeare's line).

But as a European, I assume your English is, well, English rather than American English. And at the Free Online Dictionary, which has both American and English (British) pronunications, the Brit way of saying the word comes out (to my ear) like "tem prit" or something. Go here and click on the Union Jack at the top of the page to get the British pronunciation.

All of which says that we are speaking the same language, sort of.

So keep that in mind. Poems may not always sound to readers like (in my case) Northwestern American English.

 

[Tzara]

I was too lazy to quote all of you, but T-zed and Liar, your points about poetry rarely adhering to the the form rigidly is very important (and hence my point in my post about always going with what works best in your poem as opposed to what the meter requires).

Well, yes. But with certain forms, ignoring the meter destroys the form.

For some forms, the meter is not only integral to the poem, but an integral part of what defines it. Take the limerick, for example. Getting the rhythm of a limerick accurate to the form is crucial to it even being a limerick. You can't write a limerick and ignore the metrical component. The result simply would be non-limerickal.

The double dactyl (the form Annie and I were discussing) is similar. So much of its character is related to the meter, that changing or ignoring that meter, or not getting it right, destroys the form.

A double dactyl simply doesn't work without its strict metrical requirements. (Yo. It is called the double dactyl, people. For a reason.)

Now if hearing that rhythm is a problem for people, perhaps we remove the form as one required. No regrets (well, a few, as I kind of like this form). We write something else.

Hey. Form isn't that hard! And it's fun!

Sigh.

Anyone?

Liar, I know what you mean about rhyme and repetition schemes. Writing poems that require them feels less poetic to me and more like doing a puzzle. I've always thought that. Otoh I think that writing in forms is a good way to practice writing poetry because you are forced to work harder to come up with words that rhyme or make the repetitions sensical. The process, to me, teaches a kind of discipline that I can then apply to free verse. Just my approach, but I believe practicing by writing forms has made my free verse better.

Refrain-based poems, which I think our Liar is complaining about here, are, I think, fun. Or interesting. The trick is to think of flexible but relevant refrains (the repeating part of those kind of poems) so that one can kind of move ahead when writing one.

Yeah, a restriction, but like any other restriction, one that with some thought can be made to be an advantage.

Just how you think about the poem. If you think the thing through carefully, you can make the repetition a strength.

Why I like the idea, anyway.

Hey. Have to run. I have water running out of my walls.

 

[champagne1982]

Here is the revised list of forms for Survivor. This may be the last time I can post anything to the forum before the 30th of December, so I will really need for you guys to keep this going. Don't be afraid of changing things and making decisions while I'm gone.

01. Cinquain (Crapsey's)
02. Clerihew
03. Curtal Sonnet
04. Double Dactyl
05. Ghazal
06. Glosa
07. Haiku, Senryu or Zappai
08. Limerick
09. Onegin Stanza
10. Pantoum
11. Rondeau
12. Roundelay
13. Sestina
14. Sonnet (English or Spenserian)
15. Sonnet (Italian)
16. Tanka
17. Tritina
18. Triolet
19. Villanelle
20. Ballad (5 stanzas or more)
21. Blank Verse (20 lines or more)
22. Couplet (20 lines or more)
23. Ottava Rima (3 stanzas or more)
24. Rubaiyat Quatrain (5 stanzas or more)
25. Terza Rima (4 stanzas or more + finale)

I'm bumping this post since the forms listed here are currently being hashed out.

S'rously, everyone, there are forms even the form poets don't write and well, they're just going to need to get over it. Try the form. If you have questions about your poem fitting the form, then come to the forum and ASK for help/opinions on the suitability of the structure. write write and have fun..

 

[UnderYourSpell]

I can see my accent (and you are the ones with funny accents!) making different syllables so who will be right?

 

[Tzara]

Being boring again.

Words, when spoken in English, have different stresses. That is, when you pronounce a word in English, you emphasize some syllables over others. The syllables you emphasize are called stressed, the ones that are not emphasized are called unstressed. That, along with some classifcation of patterns, is the basis of all this metrical stuff that people seem to be upset about.

Look at the word today. The Free Online Dictionary, which supplies both American and British pronunciations of the word agree that it is pronounced with an initial unstressed syllable followed by a stressed syllable in both British and American English: to·DAY. That pattern—unstressed syllable followed by stressed syllable—is the definition of an iambic foot, or iamb: a unit of speech that features an unstressed syllable followed by a stressed syllable.

Now look at a very similar word: Sunday (or Monday, Tuesday, etc.). Both Brit pronunciation and American pronunciation agree that this word is pronounced SUN·day. Still two syllables, but the emphasis is reversed to make an element, or metrical foot, called a trochee, or trochaic foot. "Sunday" emphasizes the first syllable; "today" emphasizes the second syllable.

So, one can combine these elements. Compare this sentence

Today, I saw a brown and white giraffe.​

with this one

Sunday, Tom saw something strange—a turtle.​

Now we all have accents. Mine happens to be Pacific Northwest American. Yours is likely different. That can, of course, affect how one reads a line. But I think (hope) that these examples are simple enough that accent doesn't enter into it.

The first example scans (i.e, reads through the stressed and unstressed patterns of the sentence) as simple iambic pentameter:

Today, I saw a brown and white giraffe.​

Ten syllables ordered so that the pattern of the line is unstressed STRESSED unstressed STRESSED, and so on for a total of five repeats of the basic "unstressed syllable, stressed syllable" combination.

The second example (if I've done it right) inverts this. It should scan:

Sunday, Tom saw something strange—a turtle.​

Ten syllables, like the first example, but the stress pattern is uniformly reversed. The character here is STRESSED unstressed STRESSED unstressed, etc. A pattern of a stressed syllable followed by an unstressed syllable is called a trochee, so this line, which consists of five trochees, is in trochaic pentameter.

I know. Confusing. The point is that you need to listen to each line of poetry and, as Angie said, hear the music of it. I might say you need to hear the beat, the rhythm.

It's like dancing. You don't dance a waltz in 4/4 time.

Meter is part of the sonic environment you are creating with your poem. It hugely affects the sound of your poem, and the sound of your poem greatly affects its impact, if not its meaning.

*Steps down off soapbox. Dusts off footprints.*

Anyway. Important.

I think.

 

[Under_Sun]

My goodness, this is Survivor Literotica or a MFA?

Seriously, folks, overwhelming. No matter how many posts you put up, no matter how many links, or how clear your description, it is still too much.


Have you considered, instead of a long list of forms, clumping them together, and allowing the participants do a certain number of poems from that category? So many on the list of 25 are closely related, do they all need to be represented? Do there really need to be 3 sonnets on the list?

For example, instead of having a list of 25, have a list of 5 categories so the more experienced form poet can stretch their wings and do all 25, and the form novice can work on perfecting a smaller number, but making sure to try some in the categories?

Like this:

Category A: Rhyme and Meter (include a list of possibilities)
Category B: Eastern Poetry (haiku,Haiga Sijo, Tanaga, Senryū)
Category C: Visual/Concrete Poetry (shape, acrostic, etc more modern forms too)
Category D: Narrative
Category E: Satirical/Humorous (Limerick, epigram)



Or something along those lines... I am by no means an expert, but it seems that the range of types of poetry are wider than the forms presented. There are more categories that could be used: Prose, Shakespearean, Lyrics/songs (ballads, sonnets)

So a participant would have to do a certain number from each category but not all examples. Perhaps a person who never tried an eastern form of poetry would try 5 haiku, while someone who was more experienced could stretch to do 5 different forms of eastern poetry)

Meter is ONE part of poetry, it would seem that you would alienate many people from the challenge if you put too much emphasis on this one bit. For those who get it, who can do it, okay, that is terrific, but maybe we should all be asked to stretch in different directions, not in a multiple stretch in one.

Where would Spoken Word come in? That might be a form that stretches our more conservative writers who are very comfortable inside the bonds of meter and rhyme.

Perhaps you could put up a list of poetic techniques (metaphor, alliteration, assonance, onomatopoeia and rhythm, ambiguity, symbolism, irony, etc) and give points for the use of these elements.

I have taken a poetry course or two. I have heard former Poet Laureats talk. This is not bragging, quite the contrary. I have read many posts and articles. I still cannot feel the meter. Some people, no matter how you explain, will not just like some will never really get the artistic form of spoken word.

Just my 2 cents at midnight. Please feel free to kick them into the grate and pretend they were never dropped.

~US

 

[Under_Sun]

Today, I saw a brown and white giraffe.

Ten syllables ordered so that the pattern of the line is unstressed STRESSED unstressed STRESSED, and so on for a total of five repeats of the basic "unstressed syllable, stressed syllable" combination.

The second example (if I've done it right) inverts this. It should scan:

Sunday, Tom saw something strange—a turtle.

Wow, those were awesome examples, I could actually hear those stresses. hmm. I think I need a private tutor. And an 8th day in the week where no one else bugs me. Except my tutor. Who also might give a good massage.

 

[Liar]

Yep, good examples, Tzara. But also very simple ones. The question is not, as far as I can tell from the posts in this thread, what a stressed syllable is, though.

But rather what happens if meter is paramount to the Survivor thing. In the scope of a contest like this, what happens when one syllable is stressed to some and unstressed to others? Or if a poet claims a syllable is stressed, when noone else sees it. Who gets to say that this or that poem won't count because the iambs aren't proper?

An oft used example of this is New Orleans. Some can only say it one way, some can only say it the other, and some can say it both ways without blinking.

And if we give some leeway with stresses due to personal preferrence, do we give as much leeway on other things, like rhymes? Some are pretty strict with that when they write form, while some gladly use a near rhyme or dubious ones.

/Yay to Liar for complicating things.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

People don't actually speak like that though do they i.e for Sunday I say Sundy. Anyway I am going dancing tonight with proper dances thrown in here and there so hoping that Ron is able with his knee I shall be getting very odd looks as I spout poetry through the waltz!

 

[Liar]

People don't actually speak like that though do they i.e for Sunday I say Sundy. Anyway I am going dancing tonight with proper dances thrown in here and there so hoping that Ron is able with his knee I shall be getting very odd looks as I spout poetry through the waltz!

make sure you spout poetry in Dactyls then. That's like iambs, but in 3/4 pace. With one stressed and two unstressed syllables, so that you can waltz to it.

Here is a | song but the | lyrics are | wrong,
I re|member but | half of the | verse, so let's
skip to the | chorus that | comes soon be|fore us,
so | I don't make | bad verses | worse.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

make sure you spout poetry in Dactyls then. That's like iambs, but in 3/4 pace. With one stressed and two unstressed syllables, so that you can waltz to it.

Here is a | song but the | lyrics are | wrong,
I re|member but | half of the | verse, so let's
skip to the | chorus that | comes soon be|fore us,
so | I don't make | bad verses | worse.

Roflll!