2009 Survivor Literotica Poetry Challenge: Planning & Plotting

[Safe_Bet]

I've received PMs from some different people who've expressed concern about the forms, either because how they're explained is confusing and uses terminology they are unfamiliar with or that they're thinking about dropping out of the game because the forms seem too hard.

This concerns me because I'm not sure we have all that many people who are going to try the contest anyway. Are the explanations confusing? If so, am I not providing enough detail or clear enough examples? Do I need to explain the terminology better (e.g., spell out what "iambic pentameter" is)?

I suggested earlier that we might want to have a "practice" thread where people can try a form and have others comment on whether the example fit the form or not, and if not, why not. Would that help?

The contest is supposed to be fun. I don't think anyone wants to make it some kind of obstacle course or, as Lauren said, a "puzzle."

Comments? Suggestions?

I'm game for just about anything (Hush! Not that, you perv!), but I am a little concerned about all the different forms that I have never tried and are "difficult".

IMO the Survivor Challenge is suppose to be about writing "quantities" of poetry. Especially in as how this is the first year for a Poetry Survivor Challenge, I'm wondering if it should be kept simple so that no one feels intimidated by the forms.

I feel the same way about 'immunity" cuz, after reading through the "Story" Survivor thread, even people who have been doing this for years are confused by how that works.

There is a lot to be said for KISS (specially if there is any interest in drawing in some people from the AH).

 

[champagne1982]

It is simple enough, really. Write a poem with this metre, this rhyme scheme and this long containing an exploration of this trigger. Now, that's only if you want the poem to count, otherwise, write poetry...

The story survivor has content, length and formatting rules. Really, try to slip one by without punctuation. The screeners do pay attention; you should have been here when I was trying to have Halloween Bill submitted as a contest entry... Oh my dear, the controversy, yet the piece complies with story, length and category rules even though 'tis a poem.

Poetry being what it is, we need to make the contest a bit more of a challenge than to write a poem. If it were the case that there weren't any categories to fill, anyone could simply add line breaks to a story and call it verse. That would be too easy IMO.

 

[Tzara]

I personally think the form requirements are important, for two reasons. The first, as Champ suggests, is that if there are no form requirements, the winner will likely be someone who cranks out variations on

Roses are red
Violets are too
This one is poem number
10,092​

and I doubt anyone, other than the winner, is likely to be happy about that.

The other reason I think form is important is that form is important to poetry. Not all poets, especially nowadays, write in form, but many do and it certainly is important historically. I personally think writing form, especially a form you've not written before, builds verbal facility, but I know that not everyone agrees with that. (Some quite emphatically disagree with that.)

In any case, requiring some number of form poems forces the winner to show some degree of versatility in composing poetry, which is somewhat similar to the versatility shown in the other Survivor contest by having to write in a lot of different categories. So I think having the form requirement makes sense.

My concern is that I want to make the experience welcoming to people and not intimidating. As I said, I don't want it to feel like an exam. And I think writing a form poem is not really significantly more difficult than writing a poem in free verse. In some ways, it's almost easier. You just lay out the requirements and write something that fits them. So long as you aren't overly concerned about writing a bad poem, they're fairly easy (and if you're trying something you haven't done before, I don't think you should be too worried about writing a bad example--it's how you learn).

I guess I just want to be sure everyone feels comfortable with what the definition for each form means to the point that they can be confident that when they attempt the form they conform to the requirements. The problem is that I'm not sure that everybody is there yet and I want to try and do something about it, if possible.

Anywho. My concern.

 

[Tzara]

Poetry being what it is, we need to make the contest a bit more of a challenge than to write a poem. If it were the case that there weren't any categories to fill, anyone could simply add line breaks to a story and call it verse.

Actually, according to Turco, they can't. Not because that wouldn't be "free verse" but because free verse is actually prose.


He really does say that. Go look it up.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

I for one don't understand what all the proper words mean it's no good saying to me follow this link and it will be explained because it is going in one ear and straight out the other. It's ok when the penny drops as it did eventually when doing the teach ins but it took some pretty plain talking to get me there with lots of examples. So I am still teetering on the edge of backing out completely and to tell the truth I am worried especially of being made to look foolish again for doing it all wrong. Sorry if I am being a pain but at least I am owning up now

 

[champagne1982]

I for one don't understand what all the proper words mean it's no good saying to me follow this link and it will be explained because it is going in one ear and straight out the other. It's ok when the penny drops as it did eventually when doing the teach ins but it took some pretty plain talking to get me there with lots of examples. So I am still teetering on the edge of backing out completely and to tell the truth I am worried especially of being made to look foolish again for doing it all wrong. Sorry if I am being a pain but at least I am owning up now

Annie, love, don't focus on the technicalities. Let's say the first poem on the list is a Shakespearian Sonnet; you know that's now 14 lines of 3 rhyming quatrains and a couplet written in iambic (meaning one quiet beat followed by an accented beat) pentametre (meaning 5 iambs). abbacddceffegg or ababcdcdefefgg, I think it's defined somewhere.

So, for a simpler definition or explanation, all you need to do is pose the question in a formula discussion thread, much like the pobo master class series set up. I'll do my best to contribute aid in those threads as I'm sure anyone else who has advice or an idea will.

You have beautiful poetry in you and I really hope you'll give it a shot. I think since you're writing gorgeous stuff nearly every day anyway, tacking a contest in with the exercise just makes it fun. And really, if you play in the contest that should be what it's about, fun...

fun...

fun!

 

[Safe_Bet]

Please don't misunderstand my post. I did NOT say get rid of forms. What I wnated to express is that some of the more arcane forms are difficult to learn and THAT will prevent people form entering the challenge.

Champ I'm afraid I disagree with you on trying to make this MORE challenging. With a dozen + basic forms and the triggers that Lauren is coming up with, I think that this is going to be plenty challenging for "most" of us. If you make it too difficult you are setting this up not as a Survivor's Challenge, but as a "skills" and "experience" based challenge and that is a whole diffent animal (in which many of us can't be competitive)

 

[Tzara]

Annie, love, don't focus on the technicalities. Let's say the first poem on the list is a Shakespearian Sonnet; you know that's now 14 lines of 3 rhyming quatrains and a couplet written in iambic (meaning one accented beat followed by a quiet beat) pentametre (meaning 5 iambs).

Read that bold part again, Champers.

 

[champagne1982]

oops
editing now...

 

[champagne1982]

Please don't misunderstand my post. I did NOT say get rid of forms. What I wnated to express is that some of the more arcane forms are difficult to learn and THAT will prevent people form entering the challenge.

Champ I'm afraid I disagree with you on trying to make this MORE challenging. With a dozen + basic forms and the triggers that Lauren is coming up with, I think that this is going to be plenty challenging for "most" of us. If you make it too difficult you are setting this up not as a Survivor's Challenge, but as a "skills" and "experience" based challenge and that is a whole diffent animal (in which many of us can't be competitive)

I really do mean challenge, if all it takes is to write 2 or 3 poems of unrestricted form and length then what's to stop the hacks from writing a dozen 5 7 5 count poems per day and counting them all?

How do you see the contest taking shape? You're saying we shouldn't have too many restrictions and I agree with you there, but where's the solution that you would like to see? If we shouldn't do it one way, can you propose a way you'd find easier/fairer/better?

I'm not trying to be facetious here, btw. I just need clarification about what will work for other people.

 

[Tzara]

I for one don't understand what all the proper words mean it's no good saying to me follow this link and it will be explained because it is going in one ear and straight out the other. It's ok when the penny drops as it did eventually when doing the teach ins but it took some pretty plain talking to get me there with lots of examples. So I am still teetering on the edge of backing out completely and to tell the truth I am worried especially of being made to look foolish again for doing it all wrong. Sorry if I am being a pain but at least I am owning up now

You are not the only person I am getting vibes like this from, m'dear. The "proper words" stuff is likely my fault that I am not explaining the terminology clearly enough. Unfortunately, those are the words in common use to describe those things and they describe them quite accurately. Why Turco (who is my main source) uses them.

So. Question. Should we have little teach-in threads on each of the forms, or by request? Would that help?

Also, Lauren mentioned, I think, something about perhaps having some kind of immunity, like the original Survivor game. I would presume that could be used to block out a form one found difficult or confusing.

Another option would be to try and write the form poems first. Say you write what you think is a villanelle and some other competitor (or the moderator for the game) says, "Nope. Doesn't satisfy the form."

Well, you could ask people (including, presumably, whoever nixed the form requirement) what was wrong and change the poem, but you could also perhaps merely change the category to "free verse" which I think is being defined as "anything you want."

So you'd have options to salvage points from the poem.

But the part that really bothers me is this:

So I am still teetering on the edge of backing out completely and to tell the truth I am worried especially of being made to look foolish again for doing it all wrong.

Not the backing out part. Your decision, obviously. It's the "made to look foolish" part that bothers me.

You get a form wrong, you are never foolish. Just wrong. They're hard to learn.

If someone mocks you over getting it wrong, that person is the fool or, more accurately, idiot. Trying to learn some new thing is tough. You'll make mistakes. Happens to everyone.

I've said this before: Do not be afraid to be bad. How most of us learn, actually.

Not that I'm letting you scoop points on a form you haven't nailed, though. I do want to win.

I'll just make you rewrite it.

 

[Tzara]

Please don't misunderstand my post. I did NOT say get rid of forms. What I wnated to express is that some of the more arcane forms are difficult to learn and THAT will prevent people form entering the challenge.

I turned all purple for a moment, and that gave me pause.


Now here, m'dear, is a point of at least some disagreement.

I think forms are easy to write. At least badly.

The game has no (and I think should have no) "quality" component. So writing the form poems is merely a matter of getting the form right. Why my concern is that people understand the requirements and know how to conform to them, not that the form is particularly difficult.

Take the sestina, which is the classic "OMG I cannot fucking write one of those!" form. I haven't done a form post on it as yet, but here's the Wikipedia article.

It's a long poem, with quite strict requirements, but it doesn't have to rhyme and doesn't necessarily even have a metrical requirement (though that is common). So, what d'you do?

Write out six words, place them in the proper ending positions for each stanza, and just fill in the blanks with something. The closing tercet (three-line stanza) might pose a bit of a problem, but I'd bet I could pretty much write the rest of it out without much thought, especially if I wasn't having to write in a fixed meter.

And especially if I didn't care if the poem was awful. Writing to form simply means putting the form elements in the right place. Don't mean you're writing deathless verse.

Now, in the contest, I'll certainly be trying to write at least a decent poem, but if my back was to the wall? Garbage, baby. Form-fitting garbage.

And I'll have fun doing that, too.

 

[Liar]

As I still have no proper idea as to what I am supposed to be doing I hope some kind soul will tell me when I boob

How about, like Tzara said, something of a Suvivor ER thread, where the formatically challenged, like you and (now and then at least) me can post their attempts at the more archaic stuff and get feedback from those who know that the hell they are doing? Survivor is not a poem-a-day contest. So if you need to get a round of advice before submitting some of them, it shouldn't be a problem.

Something like "I'm trying to do a Rondeau. Is this correct?", and then the forum can pitch in with technical feedback.

This of course will require that the forum actually take the time to reply. A bunch of the form savvy mebers need to be not only good sports, but also present all through the year, and pretty patient educators. Cause there might be aloooot of stupid questions on repeat ad nauseum though the year. I know that I can write a hundred villanelles from a 'put line A here'-blueprint, and never get the feel for how it's supposed to be put together. But I think something like that will have to happen, or lots of poets will bow out very early in the game.

I'll do my best to help out on meter and rhyme. But I'm pretty useless on other form topics.

 

[Liar]

And especially if I didn't care if the poem was awful. Writing to form simply means putting the form elements in the right place. Don't mean you're writing deathless verse.

Now, in the contest, I'll certainly be trying to write at least a decent poem, but if my back was to the wall? Garbage, baby. Form-fitting garbage.

And I'll have fun doing that, too.

So um, what's the difference between that and

Roses are red
Violets are too
This one is poem number
10,092

?

Just askin'.

(Which by the way is form poetry, right? It's rhyming couplets. That's form-ish, right? )

 

[Tzara]

So um, what's the difference between that and

Roses are red
Violets are too
This one is poem number
10,092

?

Just askin'.

(Which by the way is form poetry, right? It's rhyming couplets. That's form-ish, right? )

No, we've defined couplets (at least so far) as Heroic Couplets, which are usually iambic pentameter, with the occasional alexandrine or triplet thrown in for confusion.

Also, that 'zample is, I think, podic verse, not accentual-syllabic. But I's still learning about that.

Basic answer? It's harder to write a bad sestina (I think) than a bad "Roses are red..." poem. At the very least, the contestant will have to look up and conform to 25 different form requirements. Might (one hopes) be enough of a pain in the ass to prevent that kind of spam entry. Might not, though, too.

And I suspect that someone merely trying to win the contest and not trying to "write good or at least decent poems" would violate form. Probably frequently.

What other defense is there?

In any case, my suggestion is to play the game to have fun and learn something. Don't play it to win.

I certainly don't intend to. Win, that is.

 

[Liar]

I certainly don't intend to. Win, that is.

I intend not to win, but to survive. And to do that, one has to sample all the forms equally (or have I missed something?) and conform to a wide variety of triggers.

And to do that, I can't stall for days, making a certain form poem bearable (it does take days, possibly weeks, for some of them). So I'm gonna have to submit some truly godawful stuff.

 

[Tzara]

I intend not to win, but to survive. And to do that, one has to sample all the forms equally (or have I missed something?) and conform to a wide variety of triggers.

And to do that, I can't stall for days, making a certain form poem bearable (it does take days, possibly weeks, for some of them). So I'm gonna have to submit some truly godawful stuff.

Bingo.

My feelings too. Let us all be awful together is my convocation.

 

[Liar]

But being awful in free verse is somehow more bad... for the competition than being awful in form?

Ah yes, that was the question I was getting at.

I can blurt random words and call it a sestina, if it's just a technical thing. I can make a damn Excel script that does it for me. It's (almost) as easy as writing free verse crap.

 

[Tzara]

But being awful in free verse is somehow more bad... for the competition than being awful in form?

Ah yes, that was the question I was getting at.

I can blurt random words and call it a sestina, if it's just a technical thing. I can make a damn Excel script that does it for me. It's (almost) as easy as writing free verse crap.

Yeah, I think it is. The problem is, who judges what is good (or at least acceptable or qualifying verse) and what is not?

Why I think anyone who is serious competes for second or fourth or ninety-second place with the idea that the fun of the thing is the motivation.

If you're trying to write good poems, you (likely) won't win, is my guess. But you do it anyway, 'cuz you're virtuous and the contest is fun.

Or maybe not. Y'all'll have to decide.

 

[GuiltyPleasure]

Premature ejaculation!

 

[GuiltyPleasure]

• Question 1. Has it been decided that the poetry Survivor will not be the most prolific but the poet deemed "the best" by votes, blind or by judges yet to be decided?
• Question 2. It is taking quite a long time to list the various forms, how long to decide on titles/themes?
• Question 3. I hate to suggest this after all Tzara's hard work but are the choices of forms too great?

 

[UnderYourSpell]

OK Where to start I have already been asking TZ am I doing this right ...... and I wasn't!! I admit for a moment I was non plussed and thought oh what the hell if I can't get this right why should I bother because I thought I was starting with easier ones. Even though he has explained over and over again about beats I'm just not getting it. I did ask before who has got the formula for the Sestina ... I did have it but lost it when I had trouble with my server. Oh and can you explain again what it is we have to write i.e what from the list then is it one of your own choice? Do we get some form to fill saying what we are doing? Please forgive my ignorance lol my education stopped at 16 and that was a looooooong time ago!

 

[Tzara]

Question 1. Has it been decided that the poetry Survivor will not be the most prolific but the poet deemed "the best" by votes, blind or by judges yet to be decided?

Well, I thought it had. The original Survivor is based on writing the most stories across the most categories and despite complaints about that, I think is still considered by most people the fairest way to run that competition. My argument for number of poems being the criterion for winning would be the same—it's the fairest and most objective way of determining a winner. You'll have enough complaints about why some poem or another isn't counted as conforming to the form requirements (the poetry equivalent of the "you moved my story out of category" complaint you see all the time in the original game) as it stands. If there is some kind of judgment or vote on who wins, it will raise complaints about cliques or ballot-stuffing by alts.

Number of poems across forms and free verse is clear. Person with most poems wins. Period.

My opinion, anyway.

Question 2. It is taking quite a long time to list the various forms, how long to decide on titles/themes?

I think Lauren is doing that.

Question 3. I hate to suggest this after all Tzara's hard work but are the choices of forms too great?

Never mind my "hard work." It isn't hard and I find it kind of interesting.

I personally don't find the number of forms overwhelming, but form is the thing that makes the contest interesting to me. Others may, and probably do, feel differently.

Why we are talking about it, I hope.

 

[Liar]

• Question 1. Has it been decided that the poetry Survivor will not be the most prolific but the poet deemed "the best" by votes, blind or by judges yet to be decided?

Yannow, I haven't quite thought of the Grand Price aspect of it all... I was more under the impression that it was an endurance test. The challenge being writing X numbers of poems in every category (forms) plus as many as the total of that in freestyle (form or non-form of the poet's choice), all using a set list of triggers.

Maybe if we set a goal, say, five poems of every one of the 25 forms, plus 5x25 'free choice' poems, everyone still standing up at the end of the year, everyone who manage to submit that, is a "Survivor" and at least morally a winner. (Or maybe 4 of each? 200 poems is a nice, round number. And it's not even one/day, so not entirely intimidating, butr a challenge nonetheless, especially with the form and trigger requirements.)

If we then pick a top dog from that bunch of survivors, by either counting and tallying up a score, or having a voting round or a jury, and bestow a title and a pot of gold (or whatnot), that's secondary in my book. I have no illusion that I'd be a contender for the win anyway.

 

[Angeline]

• Question 1. Has it been decided that the poetry Survivor will not be the most prolific but the poet deemed "the best" by votes, blind or by judges yet to be decided?
• Question 2. It is taking quite a long time to list the various forms, how long to decide on titles/themes?
• Question 3. I hate to suggest this after all Tzara's hard work but are the choices of forms too great?

Hi.

I've been wanting to respond to some of this sooner, but I'm getting over some really nasty bronchitis. Today I only feel one-quarter dead (as opposed to three-quarters a few days ago), so I'm sorta back among the living. I think.

As to your first two questions, Lauren will respond as soon as she can. She's out of the (her) country right now, and may be until after the holidays. I doubt she'll have much time to respond in more than a general way for at least a few weeks. (I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think so).

On your third question, I tend to agree with you that the form concentration is maybe too heavy and too arcane. We'll see what Lauren says when she can get back to us. If I can lobby her at all, lol, I intend to tell her that she might want to avoid some of the particularly eye-crossing forms. My experience at Lit has been that form poetry is not especially popular with most people. Having said that, I should also note that when I came here in 2002, I had never written a form poem. I majored in literature as a college undergrad, but my concentration was on the novel, not poetry, so I didn't have any special advantages to writing poetry or form poetry, specifically. I found people here to be extraordinarily helpful and nonjudgmental about writing forms. Judo, especially, was both kind and helpful to me. She taught me how to write Shakespearian sonnets, and I went on my own from there.

I don't consider myself any kind of expert on writing form poems though I've written a lot of them. I think my main approach has always been to try it and not worry about how dumb I think I might look here as a result. I read what UYS and Safe_Bet said about writing forms, and I hope this in some way reassures them that nobody here, in over six years, has tried to make me feel unaccepted or less than "good" when I tried to do this. Maybe Senna sometimes, but he only represents his own opinion, and I always take what anyone here says with a grain of salt. I have written some really (and I do mean really) sucky form poems here over the years. No one has ever laughed at me or told me I'm no good at it. Don't be so hard on yourselves, folks. People are almost always nice and helpful here. We've gone through some rather unlovely changes in recent months--some of them partially my fault--but please don't take that as reason to believe you will be judged or ridiculed for trying. You won't. And like Tzara (and most good teachers I know of) said, you have to start somewhere. Your first attempts will likely be less than spectacular. There is not a poet I've ever seen here who hasn't been there him- or herself. Please try to remember that.