2009 Survivor Poetry Challenge: Discussion and Announcements

[Angeline]

Despise?

That seems rather strong, but makes me curious. Which ones, if you'd care to share?

Well ok, maybe despise is too strong of a word. But I seriously have no interest in writing a limerick or clerihew. I have never liked writing villanelles although I'm happy with the one I just wrote. Never really liked the Ghazal, either. It just doesn't interest me. And sestinas. I've written five (I think five), and never felt I got anywhere near the quality of poem compared to the effort I put into writing them--a point similar to the one you are making about some of the triggers, I think.

The "forms" I like best of the group in the contest are the dramatic monologue and the glosa, neither of which have metrical requirements. I don't like spending a lot of time counting syllables and trying to figure out which are stressed and which un. That feels more like doing a crossword puzzle than writing a poem to me.

Still I think form is good because it forces a kind of discipline on me as a writer. It has helped me be more precise in word choice in all my poetry. It has helped me think much more carefully about structure. And I've learned a few things about how to make a form not read so much like a form, which I think is a good skill to have developed. So form has its purposes but, for me, it's more a way of writing to make myself a stronger writer than a preference for writing it--if that makes sense.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I'm going to suggest this. Once a poet has completed 40 triggers, I will ask the top 10 participants (which is almost everyone who is actually participating at this time) and ask each of them to send me, in a PM, a list of 10 triggers. I will then compile a 2nd-round list with 50 triggers, taking an equal number of suggestions from each of those 5 poets. At least that way (almost) everyone will have at least some triggers they're happy with.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

Okay I admit it .... it was me as you all know that got huffy and it was very childish for me to do so. Perhaps I should have kept my mouth shut about it but I've always been an open book no hidden agendas. I got over it and came back and tried even harder and intend to keep trying it's all anyone can do. I've never done illustrated or audio poems before but both are in the pipeline and I would never have attempted them if I hadn't been pushed. I have even started trying again with the hated Sestina, maybe all I will produce will be crap but I'm trying and that's the important thing. When we first started I went at it like a bull at a gate but now is when I have to work hard and so what if it slows me down? I never expected to win but I am getting a lot out of it and yes I will attempt the Persian Carpet so please forgive my crappy poetry along the line as I'm learning one hell of a lot.

 

[loganforester]

I'll add my name to the list of poets who are finding this challenge, very challenging. To be quite honest, I've spent most of my writing time composing stories as opposed to poetry and have very limited poetry experience.

To that end, I almost feel like I'm sponging at times, learning from all the other poets, who have more experience, and not able to give much back in terms of critique. Prior to my Haiku the other day, I've never written a form poem before. I fully expect them to suck by the standards of this forum and I'm okay with that because I'm slowly improving.

Not only am I not bothered by critique or negative feedback, I expect and welcome it. Anyone who wants to tear one of mine to shreds and explain why they are wrong or not good, has my full and undivided attention. We can only learn by understanding why what we are doing is wrong.

 

[annaswirls]

I'm going to suggest this. Once a poet has completed 40 triggers, I will ask the top 10 participants (which is almost everyone who is actually participating at this time) and ask each of them to send me, in a PM, a list of 10 triggers. I will then compile a 2nd-round list with 50 triggers, taking an equal number of suggestions from each of those 5 poets. At least that way (almost) everyone will have at least some triggers they're happy with.

Please please please please try to keep them more general -- not a specific prescription. And please please please No More form-type poems such as double acrostics IN with the triggers? Keep the forms on the form side only.)

It might also be nice to have MORE triggers than one person would have to use. Example: 70 triggers, but you get to pick which 50 you want to do.

That might be a remedy for the first round, actually. If you add more triggers to choose from?

 

[Safe_Bet]

I'll add my name to the list of poets who are finding this challenge, very challenging. To be quite honest, I've spent most of my writing time composing stories as opposed to poetry and have very limited poetry experience.

To that end, I almost feel like I'm sponging at times, learning from all the other poets, who have more experience, and not able to give much back in terms of critique. Prior to my Haiku the other day, I've never written a form poem before. I fully expect them to suck by the standards of this forum and I'm okay with that because I'm slowly improving.

Not only am I not bothered by critique or negative feedback, I expect and welcome it. Anyone who wants to tear one of mine to shreds and explain why they are wrong or not good, has my full and undivided attention. We can only learn by understanding why what we are doing is wrong.

I think you just defined the difference in forums. IMHO, "sponging" from other poets on this forum is what the Poetry Survivor Challenge is all about. It makes us expand our knowledge of things like form poetry and lets us "suck" without having to feel bad about it.

With the exception of the Forum Mods (who are uniformly mean, hard hearted bitches) everybody here is both learning and helping each other learn.

What you expressed is EXACTLY what makes this forum so cool!

 

[LadynStFreknBed]

Despise?

That seems rather strong, but makes me curious. Which ones, if you'd care to share?

If she says she hates villanelles, don't believe her. She absolutely loves them. She's just in denial.


ETA:

How did I know she was going to say villanelle and sestina before I read her reply? LOL

Embrace the villanelle, Angeline! It's your friend!

 

[LadynStFreknBed]

I'm not sure which workshop you're referring to, but all of them have, in my opinion, become rather toothless over time. We're all (well, most of us) afraid of offending people, because we like to mingle and chat. There's nothing wrong with that, but there is no serious criticism of poems. Note that I consider serious criticism to include statements like "this poem is garbage" without further discussion.

The standard reply to this, usually expressed in some kind of damaged, hurt voice, is "then tell me what is wrong."

I really do not see any value in telling someone that their poetry is garbage.
I'd much rather read or hear, "This doesn't work because..."

As for experience, I have been writing poems for 3.5 years. I'd bet most of you have more experience than that.

Are you proud of the progress that you have made in 3.5 years? I would be. Besides moody free verse crap I wrote as a teenager, I only started writing poetry after I joined here. I'm happy with my progress, but I recognize that I have a long way to go.

I think that about sums up most people's situation and attitude here. At least, I hope so. I hope those who are learning are all happy with the progress that they are making. It's all about learning and moving forward.

As for reviews vs. comments vs. critique... They are all very different creatures. As a reviewer, I generally only pick a few poems that I would recommend others to read. Sometimes, that's tough. Sometimes, I'll mention what I thought was wrong with a poem.

Comments on poetry are few and far between. I get many more comments on my stories immediately after they post than my poems ever see. Comments for poetry generally are encouraging in nature, though I have had a few that point out an error or contain constructive criticism. Comments on poetry and on stories are almost expected to be positive at Lit. Writers of stories who receive comments that are not positive often refer to the author of that comment as a troll. The comment function is more a reflection of Lit culture than poetry.

Critique would be much more in depth and critical of the poem in question. There really is not much of a place for that here other than the workshop and sometimes in the challenge threads. Sometimes people ask for feedback on a specific poem. Then, they are more likely to get a thoughtful critique.

 

[Angeline]

Okay I admit it .... it was me as you all know that got huffy and it was very childish for me to do so. Perhaps I should have kept my mouth shut about it but I've always been an open book no hidden agendas. I got over it and came back and tried even harder and intend to keep trying it's all anyone can do. I've never done illustrated or audio poems before but both are in the pipeline and I would never have attempted them if I hadn't been pushed. I have even started trying again with the hated Sestina, maybe all I will produce will be crap but I'm trying and that's the important thing. When we first started I went at it like a bull at a gate but now is when I have to work hard and so what if it slows me down? I never expected to win but I am getting a lot out of it and yes I will attempt the Persian Carpet so please forgive my crappy poetry along the line as I'm learning one hell of a lot.

I'll add my name to the list of poets who are finding this challenge, very challenging. To be quite honest, I've spent most of my writing time composing stories as opposed to poetry and have very limited poetry experience.

To that end, I almost feel like I'm sponging at times, learning from all the other poets, who have more experience, and not able to give much back in terms of critique. Prior to my Haiku the other day, I've never written a form poem before. I fully expect them to suck by the standards of this forum and I'm okay with that because I'm slowly improving.

Not only am I not bothered by critique or negative feedback, I expect and welcome it. Anyone who wants to tear one of mine to shreds and explain why they are wrong or not good, has my full and undivided attention. We can only learn by understanding why what we are doing is wrong.

These two responses explain why I love this forum.

Please please please please try to keep them more general -- not a specific prescription. And please please please No More form-type poems such as double acrostics IN with the triggers? Keep the forms on the form side only.)

It might also be nice to have MORE triggers than one person would have to use. Example: 70 triggers, but you get to pick which 50 you want to do.

That might be a remedy for the first round, actually. If you add more triggers to choose from?

I agree that it would be helpful to have more triggers than we actually need to use. Or maybe just allow X percent of the second 50to be poet's choice. People would still have to write new poems, but they'd be poems totally of their choosing. Anyone who tries to beat the system by submitting old stuff is only hurting themself...

I think you just defined the difference in forums. IMHO, "sponging" from other poets on this forum is what the Poetry Survivor Challenge is all about. It makes us expand our knowledge of things like form poetry and lets us "suck" without having to feel bad about it.

With the exception of the Forum Mods (who are uniformly mean, hard hearted bitches) everybody here is both learning and helping each other learn.

What you expressed is EXACTLY what makes this forum so cool!

Only to you!

If she says she hates villanelles, don't believe her. She absolutely loves them. She's just in denial.


ETA:

How did I know she was going to say villanelle and sestina before I read her reply? LOL

Embrace the villanelle, Angeline! It's your friend!

You embrace it for me lol. (Ok, I'll try for you, but it'll never be one I'll enthuse over writing.)

And I agree with your point about critque versus comments. Saying you'll allow comments on a poem you submit is asking for feedback, not a full-blown critique. And even then there's no reason to be negative when you give feeback. Saying something is "garbage" doesn't help anyway, because it doesn't say anything about why. If you can't explain why, the poet won't learn anything beyond you hate the poem. How is that constructive? And if the answer is "it's not," well I am not down with browbeating people about what they write. Never have been, never will be.

 

[annaswirls]

I am beginning to see more clearly why the triggers are annoyning Pushkine.

For one, he is further along and has perhaps used up the more flexible triggers.

Take the ghazal for instance. It has a trigger Built In with the form. To be about love, love lost, the beauty of love lost (or unattainable) in spite of the pain....

But then you have to take that limitation on theme AND force a trigger upon it. So few would even technically work.

In my humble opinion, in the future, the forms should not have to have a trigger. Perhaps only 40 of the 50 triggers should have to be used. Perhaps this would not be fair to those who have already struggled through, but if no one minds it might be okay...

 

[champagne1982]

I hate to be the one to throw cold water here but it's my understanding that the purpose of survivor is to complete 50 poems and be a SURVIVOR... Secondary to that you can try to be the survivor with the most points and win the prize at the end... Down the ladder a bit, the next rung challenges the contestant to produce quality poems given the tools provided. Even lower and more unrelated to actually surviving is the fact that this challenge forms new habits and teaches the participants something about poetry and finally at the bottom-most rung, the person learns a bit about themself.

So quibble about triggers and forms but remember all it takes is the first 50 poems to be a survivor. If you want to write what you want, go ahead!! Why do you need to apply them to the survivor grid? This isn't about writing the most poems you WANT to but about writing the most poems you CAN, given the tools you set out with.

 

[Angeline]

I hate to be the one to throw cold water here but it's my understanding that the purpose of survivor is to complete 50 poems and be a SURVIVOR... Secondary to that you can try to be the survivor with the most points and win the prize at the end... Down the ladder a bit, the next rung challenges the contestant to produce quality poems given the tools provided. Even lower and more unrelated to actually surviving is the fact that this challenge forms new habits and teaches the participants something about poetry and finally at the bottom-most rung, the person learns a bit about themself.

So quibble about triggers and forms but remember all it takes is the first 50 poems to be a survivor. If you want to write what you want, go ahead!! Why do you need to apply them to the survivor grid? This isn't about writing the most poems you WANT to but about writing the most poems you CAN, given the tools you set out with.

That's true. You can write the first set and then gain more points by writing nothing but poet's choice poems, right?

I mean it's just a contest on the forum. No one has to do it. No one who does it has to write any form if they really don't want. The worst that will happen is you won't win a gift certificate, and I doubt there's anyone here who really needs to win one anyway.

I'm doing it to practice. I think practicing forms helps me become a better poet overall. That's me. If if doesn't work that way for you or you or you, don't do the contest. Write poetry here like you always have (or start writing whatever you want if you're new here). I also appreciate the opportunity to learn with a group of people. That's fun for me. If it's not fun for someone else, don't do it! I can't imagine why anyone here would care or look down or feel anything negative about anyone who chooses not to do the contest. So if it's not your thing, just stop. It doesn't make you a "quitter," it just means you're not interested in doing the contest.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

Have you ever thought that doing a Sestina is like playing Sudoko ? All the numbers have to go in the right place (I've numbered my words!)

 

[Safe_Bet]

Have you ever thought that doing a Sestina is like playing Sudoko ? All the numbers have to go in the right place (I've numbered my words!)

Isn't that where a guy cums all over your face?

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I'm going to change the rules a little bit. All 50 triggers remain as they are, but they only apply to the first round. Once you complete the 50 poems (barring any immunities) using the 50 triggers and 25 forms, you're free not to use any of the listed triggers in the second and subsequent rounds. You'll still need to stay true to the list of forms for half of the poems you write, though.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

Isn't that where a guy cums all over your face?

That's bukake you disgusting girl

 

[champagne1982]

I'm going to change the rules a little bit. All 50 triggers remain as they are, but they only apply to the first round. Once you complete the 50 poems (barring any immunities) using the 50 triggers and 25 forms, you're free not to use any of the listed triggers in the second and subsequent rounds. You'll still need to stay true to the list of forms for half of the poems you write, though.

Thank you Lauren. That will give the poets currently writing an incentive to get through the first round. Also, this opens the challenge to some more fun and self-directed thinking as they keep participating throughout the year. You're very smart, y'know?

 

[champagne1982]

That's bukake you disgusting girl

You googled that, didn't ya?
p.s. UYS, if you glance at your AV really quickly it looks like a horribly mangled and infected finger . (Once you stop and inspect it though you can see what a nice manicure it is... LOL)

 

[UnderYourSpell]

You googled that, didn't ya?

nooooo am thoroughly ashamed to admit I knew it!

 

[Maria2394]

nooooo am thoroughly ashamed to admit I knew it!

hey girl, don't be ashamed of anything you know, it makes you stronger. lotsa people know what bukake is, they just wont admit it

 

[Remec]

nooooo am thoroughly ashamed to admit I knew it!

*giggle*
You say you're ashamed, but, oddly, I'm not that surprised you know what it is.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

You googled that, didn't ya?
p.s. UYS, if you glance at your AV really quickly it looks like a horribly mangled and infected finger . (Once you stop and inspect it though you can see what a nice manicure it is... LOL)

*worries about Champ* I only put it on there because Anna was going on about manicured nails ..... I blame her entirely

 

[UnderYourSpell]

*giggle*
You say you're ashamed, but, oddly, I'm not that surprised you know what it is.

Oh shush I didn't till I got waylaid by you lot

 

[Remec]

Threadjack continues

Oh shush I didn't till I got waylaid by you lot

*nod*
I was surprised it didn't make an appearance in the story you wrote.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

*nod*
I was surprised it didn't make an appearance in the story you wrote.

Hey it never even crossed my mind ....... you were in that you know bet you wonder which one!
Who's the stinker from over there sent all this snow I'm supposed to be going out for my birthday next week!