2011 Survivor: Plotting & Planning thread

[CrimsonMaiden]

In regards to the other suggestions there is too much room for subjective evaluation for it to work.

Erin

Erin, the problem is, the rule is already in subjective evaluation as it stands right now. No one has the same view on what makes something a "chapter". I believe we can institute some kind of guidelines to make it work. Requiring an oral sex scene or regular sex scene or whatever isn't subjective. There would just have to be specific guidelines set into place. The problem in the past was participants would include one kiss or one sentence saying someone did oral or had sex and considered that their "sexual content." (and for all I know, it happened this year in regular submissions, but I don't have time to read every story and no one reported anything to me.)

I do agree that what is erotic can be subjective. A good description of a strip tease with no sex can still be erotic. Surely, we have enough brain power around here to come up with something that can work.

 

[Boxlicker101]

The conversation that was spawned from this post was moved to the 2010 Off topic thread (since I had not created the 2011 one yet). No biggie, just trying to keep this thread clean for discussion.

Okay, here is the problem with what you are asking and why we still have an issue with the clarity of the no chapter rule (which I still haven't gotten much discussion on btw): You have to be very careful when you are using the same characters in more than one story that none of them sound like they are a continuation of a previous story. Stories have been disqualified in the past because even though the location was different, the story still read as though it was a continuation of a previous one (and the author and some others didn't agree but there's the rub... it's subjective and both of the moderators felt the stories in question *were* related enough to be considered chapters).

I've been giving the chapter rule some thought on how it can be better utilized. Some people don't want chapters at all. Some would like to have chapters but do not want the chopping that went on in previous years. There's got to be a way to find a compromise which takes care of the problem with the disagreement on what is a chapter and what isn't. So here's what I have come up with so far:

We can allow chapters but have certain requirements for them (like we do for certain categories like chain stories and novels), such as:

• Chapters of a series cannot jump categories.
• Each chapter must include sexual content (IE an oral sex scene, etc. NOT just a kiss) if the series is in an erotic story category.
• Each chapter must include X amount of words.

Now, obviously, we might need to go into greater detail about what constitutes sexual content, and we'd have to decide how many words (I was thinking a full Lit page or thereabouts.) It's going to require a bit more time to check those entries and the mods would need help from the participants to ensure the rules were being followed, but it might be a decent compromise.

So, what do y'all think? Good idea? Not good idea? Other suggestions?

I like the second and third rules fine, but authors are not the people who select the category. We make suggestions, and they are usually accepted, but not always. This year I submitted a story about a drag queen and suggested it be posted in Gay Male, but it is in TS & CD because the man wears women's clothing. I don't believe it belongs there, and I am going to try to get it changed.

The series about the hot blonde student I mentioned before was posted to different categories because the kinds of sex were different. The first two could have gone into E/C but the third would have been Anal and the fourth probably would have been Group even if I had suggested E/C for all of them.

I have another series of four stories about Marian & Ryan. The plot is similar for all of them and the main characters and the setting are the same. However, the stories are posted to four different categories: First Time, because it was Ryan's first sexual experience, Mature, because Marian is much older and is teaching him how to please a woman, Anal, because that is the main kind of sex involved, and Group, because another young man joined them. Even if I had suggested different categories, they probably would have been posted the way they were.

These two groups of four stories each should be read in sequence, but all are standalone tales, and a person can get off reading one of them without reading the previous ones. Each has a distict beginning - Marian being horny on Sat. morning - and each ends with Marian being satisfied at the end of the day.

ETA: We could include word count with the stories we submit, but it would have to go in the notes section, because it is not part of a story. I thing words rather that Lit. pages, because the authors control that.

ETA: I agree that "sex scene" might be too restrictive. I have several stories in which there is no actjual sex, but there is a lot of nudity. These would include In-laws on Display, Nude Softball, Angel on the Stage, and probably some others I can'y think of right now. How about a BDSM story that only involves whipping with both people getting off on it?

 

[CrimsonMaiden]

Well, that's kind of the point for the rule, Box. Technically, if the story spans different categories, then it belongs in Novels & Novellas. To fit within the suggested rules, any series with chapters would either have to relate to one specific category or go into Novels and Novellas. If you have a first time experience, but the theme of the series is (for example) Lesbian sex (or romance or erotic couplings), it can be fixed if it gets put in the wrong place. More than likely, if you had a story that had that potential problem, the author could include a statement in the notes field stating the story is part of a series and all chapters need to be in the x category because that's the theme of the series and the requirement of the contest (or something like that.)

 

[Sean Renaud]

I'd like to restate that I think if you can replace the names in a story and it stands as a story not a "what the fuck" that it should be considered acceptable. So if Neo suddenly becomes Van Helsing and the story goes from understaning that Neo and Smith have a relationship (which is fine and well) to the story doesn't make sense elimiate it. I think the rule has been randomly applied in the past.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Well, that's kind of the point for the rule, Box. Technically, if the story spans different categories, then it belongs in Novels & Novellas. To fit within the suggested rules, any series with chapters would either have to relate to one specific category or go into Novels and Novellas. If you have a first time experience, but the theme of the series is (for example) Lesbian sex (or romance or erotic couplings), it can be fixed if it gets put in the wrong place. More than likely, if you had a story that had that potential problem, the author could include a statement in the notes field stating the story is part of a series and all chapters need to be in the x category because that's the theme of the series and the requirement of the contest (or something like that.)

The problem with putting it in Novels and Novellas is that sucessive stories in a series might not be as long as 7,500 words, the minimum for that category. To use the hot blonde student series again, the first two stories could have been in E/C, but the third would have been put into Anal, even if I, the author, had objected. A story that fits well into another category is NEVER posted to E/C, and the third story would only fit into Anal.

I have also suggested a certain minimum length, such as 4,000 or 5,000 words. Instead of going by word count, possibly a minimum length of two Lit. pages, which would accomplish the same purpose and be easier to determine. It would actually be easier than it is now, because a story that extended to two or more Lit. pages would always be acceptable, and it wouldn't be necessary to make a judgement on the contents.

 

[Algonquin Twit]

The conversation that was spawned from this post was moved to the 2010 Off topic thread (since I had not created the 2011 one yet). No biggie, just trying to keep this thread clean for discussion.

Okay, here is the problem with what you are asking and why we still have an issue with the clarity of the no chapter rule (which I still haven't gotten much discussion on btw): You have to be very careful when you are using the same characters in more than one story that none of them sound like they are a continuation of a previous story. Stories have been disqualified in the past because even though the location was different, the story still read as though it was a continuation of a previous one (and the author and some others didn't agree but there's the rub... it's subjective and both of the moderators felt the stories in question *were* related enough to be considered chapters).

I've been giving the chapter rule some thought on how it can be better utilized. Some people don't want chapters at all. Some would like to have chapters but do not want the chopping that went on in previous years. There's got to be a way to find a compromise which takes care of the problem with the disagreement on what is a chapter and what isn't. So here's what I have come up with so far:

We can allow chapters but have certain requirements for them (like we do for certain categories like chain stories and novels), such as:

• Chapters of a series cannot jump categories.
• Each chapter must include sexual content (IE an oral sex scene, etc. NOT just a kiss) if the series is in an erotic story category.
• Each chapter must include X amount of words.

Now, obviously, we might need to go into greater detail about what constitutes sexual content, and we'd have to decide how many words (I was thinking a full Lit page or thereabouts.) It's going to require a bit more time to check those entries and the mods would need help from the participants to ensure the rules were being followed, but it might be a decent compromise.

So, what do y'all think? Good idea? Not good idea? Other suggestions?

I'm good with item 2 above, but it seems that a chaptered story could comfortably span several categories... Ie: An older man experiences sex with a much younger woman for a mature category and then finds a woman his age to try some anal. Both would be complete chapters.

As far as item 3 above, I could agree if X=750 words, otherwise we are in the same boat as with non-chaptered stories, a moderator would be responsible for checking each and every chaptered story to make sure it is not 3999 words, but a full 4000 words. This type of rule has nothing to do with chapters, it's the same people who argued to disallow shorter stories from the competition. Word count has nothing to do with whether a chapter is stand alone or not so why require it. If that is going to be a requirement lets just make chapters illegal or perhaps let's just change this whole survivor thing to a contest for word count. Let the person typing the most words win...


AT

 

[Algonquin Twit]

I have also suggested a certain minimum length, such as 4,000 or 5,000 words. Instead of going by word count, possibly a minimum length of two Lit. pages, which would accomplish the same purpose and be easier to determine. It would actually be easier than it is now, because a story that extended to two or more Lit. pages would always be acceptable, and it wouldn't be necessary to make a judgement on the contents.

Two pages make it a chapter? That is just outright foolish. If we are going to allow chapters lets make the chapter stand alone... regardless if that is one page, two pages or fifty.

You know if you submit a chapter story in the illustrated category and add enough pictures you could possibly get two pages with just a few hundred words. Or do we add a rule that illustrated stories can't be chaptered stories too? I have also seen pictures added to stories submitted in categories other than illustrated.

AT

 

[CrimsonMaiden]

I'm good with item 2 above, but it seems that a chaptered story could comfortably span several categories... Ie: An older man experiences sex with a much younger woman for a mature category and then finds a woman his age to try some anal. Both would be complete chapters.

As far as item 3 above, I could agree if X=750 words, otherwise we are in the same boat as with non-chaptered stories, a moderator would be responsible for checking each and every chaptered story to make sure it is not 3999 words, but a full 4000 words. This type of rule has nothing to do with chapters, it's the same people who argued to disallow shorter stories from the competition. Word count has nothing to do with whether a chapter is stand alone or not so why require it. If that is going to be a requirement lets just make chapters illegal or perhaps let's just change this whole survivor thing to a contest for word count. Let the person typing the most words win...


AT

Novels and Novellas purpose is for longer works and those that span more than one category. It doesn't matter if you scatter chapters of other series throughout categories outside of the contest, but we are trying to find some working rules to allow chapters for the contest (and just saying *stand alone* is not working because *stand alone* is subjective). Also, the purpose of wanting the chapters to be longer than minimum word count of 750 is to try and minimize the number of people purposely chopping a longer work into 750 word snippets for more points (which is what happened in the past.) And no, requiring more than 750 wouldn't be that hard to check. Mods wouldn't have to do a work count, just check to see if the chapter hit the top of a 2nd page (which would require the chapter being around 3800 words in length).


I'm at the point of either just leaving it as is or abolishing it altogether because it doesn't seem we have enough participants interested enough in discussing what to do with it.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Novels and Novellas purpose is for longer works and those that span more than one category. It doesn't matter if you scatter chapters of other series throughout categories outside of the contest, but we are trying to find some working rules to allow chapters for the contest (and just saying *stand alone* is not working because *stand alone* is subjective). Also, the purpose of wanting the chapters to be longer than minimum word count of 750 is to try and minimize the number of people purposely chopping a longer work into 750 word snippets for more points (which is what happened in the past.) And no, requiring more than 750 wouldn't be that hard to check. Mods wouldn't have to do a work count, just check to see if the chapter hit the top of a 2nd page (which would require the chapter being around 3800 words in length).


I'm at the point of either just leaving it as is or abolishing it altogether because it doesn't seem we have enough participants interested enough in discussing what to do with it.

Well, if you drop the chapter rule altogether, we will have long, rambling works chopped into 750 word snippets for more points. I won't do that, under any circumstances, because I think more of my work than to butcher it like that, but there are others who might. Why not just keep the chapter rule as it was last year, but accept a chapter that includes at least part of a second page?

 

[SuperHeroRalph]

Just my two cents, but I like the no chapter story rule.

It's been a better and more dificult contest without having chapter stories. Why are we going backwards?

This is just ridiculous.

 

[YoursSINSerely]

Novels and Novellas purpose is for longer works and those that span more than one category. It doesn't matter if you scatter chapters of other series throughout categories outside of the contest, but we are trying to find some working rules to allow chapters for the contest (and just saying *stand alone* is not working because *stand alone* is subjective). Also, the purpose of wanting the chapters to be longer than minimum word count of 750 is to try and minimize the number of people purposely chopping a longer work into 750 word snippets for more points (which is what happened in the past.) And no, requiring more than 750 wouldn't be that hard to check. Mods wouldn't have to do a work count, just check to see if the chapter hit the top of a 2nd page (which would require the chapter being around 3800 words in length).


I'm at the point of either just leaving it as is or abolishing it altogether because it doesn't seem we have enough participants interested enough in discussing what to do with it.

I don't want chapters allowed in the contest.

 

[Noira]

I think the question has come into debate due to the uncertain definition on what by default makes a chapter. If you watch Lord of the Rings, the Fellowship of the Ring is clearly the first, followed by the Two Towers, and then Return of the King. They do not stand alone. If you watch one you ought to watch the other. But on the flip side, if you pick up some Batman to watch, who's stopping you from watching Dark Knight first? (At least, I did and didn't feel stinted.) You can pick up almost any Discworld book and read it without reading any of the others. Etc. But from what I understand, stories were being disqualified last year for simply having the same characters and that, in my opinion, does not make a chapter--and should not be disqualified.

Standalone should not have to be subjective. If you can replace Bob and Sue with Smith and Cindy and the story still reads the same, it's standalone. But I know it's Bob and Sue and I shouldn't have to rename them to avoid losing points, because I am invested in my characters and my character's lives, their world, and their backstory, because I spend a fickle amount of time on character names if the story is actually serious (unlike Joe the Pirate... who is currently pending in the humor section...) and I can't simply change their names.

I don't want chapters allowed, I just want the ability to write stories that contain loose connections to one another and or the same characters without being disqualified for something I really don't personally feel equals a chapter. For example... I'm currently writing a story about two astrologers who will eventually be ostrosized for their findings (this will go into non-consent), and then I'm going to write about one of their lonely boyfriends after they've been banished who turns to crossdressing with his friends to try fill the empty void in his life. I don't feel these are chapters. So I'm less fighting for chapters and more of a definition, definitely, of what makes a chapter. I'd love to get cracking on all of these little story starts I have! But so far I only have some very standalone things pending. >_>

 

[Algonquin Twit]

Let's not use the chapters issue as a way of forcing a minimum word count on authors. Just like a concise, well written story of say 750 to 800 is often more enjoyable than a rambling, poorly written story of 4000 words, a concise, well written, stand alone chapter of 750 to 800 words can be better than a rambling, poorly written non-stand alone chapter of two pages.

If it is too difficult to judge whether a chapter is complete and stand alone on the merit of the writing itself we should simply disallow chapters like last year. Requiring some measurement that has nothing to do with makes a stand alone chapter stand alone is simply pandering to those who want to require longer stories. Hell, a twelve page chapter could fail to stand alone.

I vote no chapters.


As far as the stories go, I will not take a concise, complete story or chapter and ramble on with superfluous information and words just to make some artificial requirement, gain votes or meet some hacks idea of what constitutes a story I won't do that under any circumstance, because I think more of my work than to pad it like that, but there are others who might.

Of course I might be mistaking padding for the simple inablilty to write concisely. Maybe... maybe not.


AT

 

[Sean Renaud]

Just my two cents, but I like the no chapter story rule.

It's been a better and more dificult contest without having chapter stories. Why are we going backwards?

This is just ridiculous.

Nobody is talking arguing going back to chapters. What we are arguing is that there are six separate Batman movies, each stands alone perfectly well. It's not a matter of word count. The chapter rule was put in to keep people from writing a single long story and breaking it into chunks. We all agree with that. What we don't all agree on is that if i want to write Rocky and then I want to revisit Rocky and tell a story where he fights a Russian and then I want to tell a story where he's really old and a machine dream matches him against the current world champion. I want to be able to write these stories FOR points. I don't want to have to keep tricking you by naming him Rocky in the first story, then calling him Sly in the second story and Little Mac in the last story. Sure I can and if that's how it HAS to be so be it.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Let's not use the chapters issue as a way of forcing a minimum word count on authors. Just like a concise, well written story of say 750 to 800 is often more enjoyable than a rambling, poorly written story of 4000 words, a concise, well written, stand alone chapter of 750 to 800 words can be better than a rambling, poorly written non-stand alone chapter of two pages.

If it is too difficult to judge whether a chapter is complete and stand alone on the merit of the writing itself we should simply disallow chapters like last year. Requiring some measurement that has nothing to do with makes a stand alone chapter stand alone is simply pandering to those who want to require longer stories. Hell, a twelve page chapter could fail to stand alone.

I vote no chapters.

As far as the stories go, I will not take a concise, complete story or chapter and ramble on with superfluous information and words just to make some artificial requirement, gain votes or meet some hacks idea of what constitutes a story I won't do that under any circumstance, because I think more of my work than to pad it like that, but there are others who might.

Of course I might be mistaking padding for the simple inablilty to write concisely. Maybe... maybe not.

AT

Lit. already has a minimum length of 750 words in order to be posted as a story. There's nothing wrong with a standalone story of that length, as long as it is a complete story.

In the past, a few people wrote long, rambling stories and cut them up into chapters of 800 or so words and posted them separately and tried to pass them off as that many items. Sometimes the "chapters" were designated in different categories. A person could write a 6,000 word story and cut it up into eight chapters and submit those chapters into four different categories, thereby scoring at least eight points and sometimes completing multiple cap levels with one story. That is why the rule against chapters was put into place.

However, this rule was broadly applied, so two stories about the same characters or set in the same locale were considered chapters and were both disqualified. This was so, even if the two stories were both complete in themselves, and only referenced events that happened in previous stories. This would be akin to Batman and Robin battling the Joker in Gotham City and, two months later, the dynamic duo battling the same arch villain in the same city. These would be two separate stories, but here they would have been considered to be chapters of a larger story. Rocky and RockyII would have been considered two chapters of the same epic because of the similarities, even though both are standalone stories.

I believe most persons want a middle-of-the road approach, disallowing short chapters but accepting standalone stories about the same people or the same locations. I believe this can be done by requiring a certain minimum length, such as "more than one Lit. page" which would be about 4,000 words and having a distinct beginning and climnactic moment. This has been my contentions all along.

 

[SuperHeroRalph]

The contest is more challenging without going back down the slippery slope of allowing chapter stories.

Then, we get into the nightmare of what happened at the end of the contest in 2009 with so called templated stories and boiler plate stories and now chapter stories.

If we only went by word count, I would have won the contest every year since 2007.

As far as I'm concerned, so long as a story is accepted to post by Laurel in the category that Laurel choses, so long as it's not a chapter story and part of a larger piece of work, then leave the rules as it is.

Except for Bakeboss writing his/her nonsensical stories with no beginning, no middle, no ending, no character development, no dialogue, and no plot and allowed to post his/her stories in any category, we didn't have a problem last year.

What I would love to see is the immunity thread and the scoreboard, especially the scoreboard, updated more often, instead of the way the scoreboard was with only being updated twice in the whole year, last year.

If Crimson is too busy to update the scoreboard, then maybe that can be delegated to someone else.

It never made sense to me to have a year long contest and not know anyone's scores without the players having to go through everyone's scorecard.

Further, I'd like to stop the sand bagging and have a rule where everyone must post their stories to their scorecard within a week that they posted, just as they must do with immunities.

This is supposed to be a writing contest and not a spy game.

Otherwise, leave the contest the way it is. To change the rules every year is nonsense, confusing, and not necessary.

Too bad Bakeboss isn't in the contest this year. He could have used use my above post as a story and posted it in Reviews in Essays.

 

[Algonquin Twit]

I believe most persons want a middle-of-the road approach, disallowing short chapters but accepting standalone stories about the same people or the same locations. I believe this can be done by requiring a certain minimum length, such as "more than one Lit. page" which would be about 4,000 words and having a distinct beginning and climnactic moment. This has been my contentions all along.

Great idea. Stand alone stories about the same people or location are a good idea, but what does the 4000 words have to do with it? Once again this has nothing to do with the chapter rule, you are trying to force a minimum word count on stories when we already have one. Let's take the middle of the road approach and disallow chapters, but accept standalone stories about the same people or the same locations. If you are good enough to do that in 750 words then so be it, if it takes you 4000 words to do that then be my guest, but the implication that a standlone stories with the same people or locations cannot be acomplished in less than two pages, or 4000 or even 800 words is simply ignorant.

AT

 

[PrincessErin]

.....

 

[Boxlicker101]

Great idea. Stand alone stories about the same people or location are a good idea, but what does the 4000 words have to do with it? Once again this has nothing to do with the chapter rule, you are trying to force a minimum word count on stories when we already have one. Let's take the middle of the road approach and disallow chapters, but accept standalone stories about the same people or the same locations. If you are good enough to do that in 750 words then so be it, if it takes you 4000 words to do that then be my guest, but the implication that a standlone stories with the same people or locations cannot be acomplished in less than two pages, or 4000 or even 800 words is simply ignorant.

AT

The problem is that saying stores are standalone or not is subjective. 13 months ago, I confidently expected stories about the hot blond student and the friends of Strider were standalone stories. Each of them had a clear beginning and a climactic moment and sexual activity or a series of sex acts that began in the story, and all the people climaxed and the stories came to a clear conclusion. However, it was ruled otherwise. Because the student and the assistant dean appeared in all their stories, all of which which were set in his office, and Strider's friends all cavorted at The Pony Farm, the stories were all considered to be chapters in longer stories.

I knew they were related, but I considered them to be stories in a series, just as I consider the two successive TV shows featuring Batman and Robin versus The Joker in Gotham City to be separate stories, and each of the Rocky movies to be separate and complete films, rather than a Saturday morning serial.

That's why I'm suggesting a minimum length for tales such as the ones I describe. If a story appears to be a chapter or part of a longer story, it can still be acceptable if it is a minimum length (more than one Lit. page) and has a distinct beginning and end, rather than continuing the action where the previous story or chapter ended. That way, we eliminate the multiple chapters that were all just barely at the Lit. minimum, and most people involved here know what I mean when I say that. ETA: Of course, a standalone story, etc. that is not part of a series is acceptable for this contest as long as it is accepted by Literotica.

As for requiring at least one sex act, that is also quite subjective. Is a strip tease a sex act? How about a whipping or forcing somebody to humiliate himself or herself? What about peeking through a window to watch the neighbor taking a shower?

By the way, Erin, a Novel or Novelette chapter is at least 7,500 words, not 4,500.

 

[Algonquin Twit]

That's why I'm suggesting a minimum length for tales such as the ones I describe. If a story appears to be a chapter or part of a longer story, it can still be acceptable if it is a minimum length (more than one Lit. page) and has a distinct beginning and end, rather than continuing the action where the previous story or chapter ended. That way, we eliminate the multiple chapters that were all just barely at the Lit. minimum, and most people involved here know what I mean when I say that. ETA: Of course, a standalone story, etc. that is not part of a series is acceptable for this contest as long as it is accepted by Literotica.

As for requiring at least one sex act, that is also quite subjective. Is a strip tease a sex act? How about a whipping or forcing somebody to humiliate himself or herself? What about peeking through a window to watch the neighbor taking a shower?

By the way, Erin, a Novel or Novelette chapter is 17 least 7,500 words, not 4,500.

Once again I ask, what does the length of the story have to do with it? So, if it seems like a chaptered story and we have difficulty judging that it is standalone (because it is so subjective) suddenly, when the story passes the single page barrier, it is magically standalone... the question is no longer subjective? Why make it a two page barrier, why not fifteen, or twenty. Maybe that is the magical point when a story really becomes standalone.

Or if you are simply looking for an easy way to determine if a story is standalone why not require it to be posted in italics. That makes the determination easy... if the story appears in italics it is standalone, if not, then the story is not stand alone.

Kind of silly, I agree, but it has all the validity of calling a story standalone simply when it hits two pages. Oh yes of course it must have a distinct start and end... yadda, yadda.... Yet the 800 word story that has the distinct start and end and so on and so on can't be standalone because it is not two pages, or perhaps because it is not posted in italic.

Btw if you want to write a standalone story but aren't sure how to post it in italics let me know and I'll show you how to do it.

AT

 

[Noira]

For this contest to continue we need to stop changing the rules to improve the quality of the stories. This contest is not about quality and never will be.

So no word count minimums other then the 750 words.
No chapters but also no deciding that certain stand alone stories are actually chapters. If it's posted as a stand alone story then it counts. No reading the story and deciding it's a chapter. The reason I am saying this is simple. Certain people are going to cheat no matter what. Trying to change the rules to make sure people are writing unique. quality stories for Survivor is useless.

As well I would like this decided soon. We are one month into the contest and I have not posted anything for the simple reason I'm not sure whether they will count or not.

I too echo this sentiment. I am an avid lover of NaNoWriMo. NaNoWriMo is not about quality, it's about quantity (word count). They have certain rules (story must be a fiction novel started from scratch (barring outlining) in November... not a collection of poems and recipes, a true story, not starting from chapter seven) but the only enforcement of this rule is the guiltmonkeys.

If someone writes 50,000 words of true life poetry in recipe form that they wrote half of in 2006, and verifies it, they're only cheating themselves.

I realize in this case there is a cash prize at stake. But it is a contest about quantity, not quality. Those of us aiming for quality are chosing that path. If someone decides to write a 500,000 word novel and post it chapter by chapter... are cheating themselves out of the learning experience to be found in writing hundreds of stories, and those of us writing quality possibly connected fics shouldn't have to be penalized for that. Or if we're going to be, we ought to know: will we be penalized for writing quality, unique stories for Survivor when we should've been writing generic stroke fics where anyone could be Bob?

I have about a dozen stories in various states of finishedness that I'm afraid I'll be wasting time on if they later don't count. (And a poem I have to decide: do I make it audio or not. I know audio will be the hardest category for me to fill, soo... yeah.)

 

[Sean Renaud]

Dittos to the above. All I want is to feel safe writing not even sequels per se but stories in the same universe. as I've repeatedly said if the only thing I need to do to make the story a stand alone is change the names around it should be good. Not merely it helps, sure it helps to have seen Rocky before you watch number 2 so you understand it's about earing a second chance at the title and that he's already fought this guy before. Three. . was the first one I watched and it makes perfect sense. Sure they don't explain why Rocky has a black friend who's a boxer so having watched one and two so you know who Apollo is makes the story more enjoyable and makes his death MORE poignant I again saw 4 before I saw one and two and I got the idea. There is a black boxer who's friends with Rocky who dies in the ring. If we replaced Apollo with Asian boxer Piston Honda and Rocky with Balrog and the audiance wouldn't be confused. Other than possibly wondering why you replaced Astroboy with Megaman and then Megaman with Rockman and then Rockman with Alpha 5.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Once again I ask, what does the length of the story have to do with it? So, if it seems like a chaptered story and we have difficulty judging that it is standalone (because it is so subjective) suddenly, when the story passes the single page barrier, it is magically standalone... the question is no longer subjective? Why make it a two page barrier, why not fifteen, or twenty. Maybe that is the magical point when a story really becomes standalone.

Or if you are simply looking for an easy way to determine if a story is standalone why not require it to be posted in italics. That makes the determination easy... if the story appears in italics it is standalone, if not, then the story is not stand alone.

Kind of silly, I agree, but it has all the validity of calling a story standalone simply when it hits two pages. Oh yes of course it must have a distinct start and end... yadda, yadda.... Yet the 800 word story that has the distinct start and end and so on and so on can't be standalone because it is not two pages, or perhaps because it is not posted in italic.

Btw if you want to write a standalone story but aren't sure how to post it in italics let me know and I'll show you how to do it.

AT

I don't know if you are deliberately being obtuse or not, but I will try again.

First, I am not talking about the minimum length for a story. If a story (or an essay) is at least 750 words long, it is acceptable by Lit. and by the mods for this contest. It would be possible to write 100 stories and essays of 800 words each and post them all for scores, except I would never do that. It's a lot more fun to write graphic descriptions of sex acts and surround them by a bit of a plot and, maybe, some character development, and I can't do that with so few words.

If I or you or somebody else writes a series of stories featuring the same characters and/or the same location, that series might be adjudged to be a single story with multiple chapters, and therefore not counted for points in the contest. If the mods say a series such as that is a multi-chapter story, their decision is final, and there is no appeal. However, under my proposal, if those efforts which have been declared to be chapters meet certain criteria, they are accepted anyhow. These criteria would be having a distinctive beginning, rather than just continuing from a previous story or chapter. They would need to have a climactic moment, such as people climaxing, and come to a clear finish.

They would also need to be of a certain length. At first, I suggested an arbitrary number of words, such as 4,000, but I believe it might be too much trouble to count the words in a questionable entry. However, it is no trouble at all to look at the story as it appears in Lit. and, if it occupies two or more pages, consider it to be a valid entry, even if it has some elements that would cause it to be considered a chapter of a story. "More than one page" is not some magical number; it is an easy length to verify and amounts to more than 3,500 words, which should make it worthwhile in its own right.

These possible rule changes I am describing have nothing to do with those items that are adjudged by the mods to be standalone stories. They would only apply if the entry, regardless of its other characteristics, was so closely related to a previous entry as to be considered a chapter of a story that also uncluded the previous entry.

The whole idea is to prevent what happened in 2009. At least one contestant, and maybe more, wrote long stories and cut them up into minimum length chapters and posted them, listing every chapter as a separate entry. That is why the rule against chapters was imposed, but I believe it was applied too broadly, which is why I am making this suggestion.

 

[Algonquin Twit]

I don't know if you are deliberately being obtuse or not, but I will try again.

First, I am not talking about the minimum length for a story. If a story (or an essay) is at least 750 words long, it is acceptable by Lit. and by the mods for this contest. It would be possible to write 100 stories and essays of 800 words each and post them all for scores, except I would never do that. It's a lot more fun to write graphic descriptions of sex acts and surround them by a bit of a plot and, maybe, some character development, and I can't do that with so few words.

If I or you or somebody else writes a series of stories featuring the same characters and/or the same location, that series might be adjudged to be a single story with multiple chapters, and therefore not counted for points in the contest. If the mods say a series such as that is a multi-chapter story, their decision is final, and there is no appeal. However, under my proposal, if those efforts which have been declared to be chapters meet certain criteria, they are accepted anyhow. These criteria would be having a distinctive beginning, rather than just continuing from a previous story or chapter. They would need to have a climactic moment, such as people climaxing, and come to a clear finish.

They would also need to be of a certain length. At first, I suggested an arbitrary number of words, such as 4,000, but I believe it might be too much trouble to count the words in a questionable entry. However, it is no trouble at all to look at the story as it appears in Lit. and, if it occupies two or more pages, consider it to be a valid entry, even if it has some elements that would cause it to be considered a chapter of a story. "More than one page" is not some magical number; it is an easy length to verify and amounts to more than 3,500 words, which should make it worthwhile in its own right.

These possible rule changes I am describing have nothing to do with those items that are adjudged by the mods to be standalone stories. They would only apply if the entry, regardless of its other characteristics, was so closely related to a previous entry as to be considered a chapter of a story that also uncluded the previous entry.

The whole idea is to prevent what happened in 2009. At least one contestant, and maybe more, wrote long stories and cut them up into minimum length chapters and posted them, listing every chapter as a separate entry. That is why the rule against chapters was imposed, but I believe it was applied too broadly, which is why I am making this suggestion.

Who's being obtuse?

We both are clearly talking about stories with the same characters or locations. And by your repeated failure to answer my questions I will take it that you fully agree that two seven hundred fifty word stories with the same characters and locations can be just as easily stand alone as much, much, much, much, much longer stories. So, it is obvious your wanting to consider the longer length for the stories is not some way to magically create a standalone story. So what are you driving at?

Yes, I am now being purposly obtuse, I know and everyone else should know exactly what you are doing. While chaptered or non standalone stories are against the rules, you want to cut corners and, by simply slupping in some extra words, ignore the rules and write chaptered or non standalone stories. You want the moderators to ignore the rules because your story happens to be two pages long and accept your non standalone story.

Oh, you are being helpful to the moderators for this... telling them how easily they can see the story is two pages long. So easy that we know what will happen: they will not read the story and make the dicey decision that the story is non standalone, they will see it is two pages long and therefore exempt from the rules. Of course you ignore the fact that the easiest check on the story is the 750 word limit... the moderator doesn't even need to check on it because it is automatic.

Let's stop playing games and simply allow chaptered and non standalone stories for all entries or disallow them for all entries. Let's not give a few scrupulous? writers a way to bend the rules by writing overly long stories.

AT

 

[SuperHeroRalph]

Quality stories for the Survivor Contest are usless is what one writer wrote. This contest is only about quantity and not quality.

Humbly, I beg to differ.

After participating in this contest for four years and winning 2nd place 3 out of 4 years, I've never written a story that wasn't the best possible story that I could write at the time.

One only has to look at the stories that I wrote in 2007 & 2008 as Bostonfictionwriter and compare them to the stories that I wrote as Andtheend in 2010 and now as SuperHeroRalph in 2011.

The story that I wrote in 2009, as WmForrester, I Love You Mommy, was the most read story from the period of October 2009 until October 2010. The story has more than 610,000 hits and nearly 1,000 votes.

I wrote two stories in 2007, Sex with my Sister-in-law Samantha and Mother-in-law Accidental Fllashing that garnered 650,000 and 850,000 hits respectively, before I pulled them at the end of 2007 to post as part of an E-Book erotic short story collection. Had I left them on the site, 3 years later, I can't imagine how many hits they'd have.

Yeah, sure, they're incest stories, but the readers who read incest stories don't read crappy incest stories.

For me, the Survivor contest is not about quantity, but about quality and writing the best story that you know how to write. I write in this contest because it stretches me to write in categories that I wouldn't otherwise write. This contest, no doubt, has made me a better writer.

For a writer to freely admit that quality stories are useless in the Survivor Contest is a sad and revealing statement to make. Missing the point and writing stories just for the sake of winning a contest may win $500 but will not make you a better writer than you were when you started writing in the contest.

My advice to those writing in the contest is to use the contest to make you a better writer. Forget about the contest. This is more about you. Write the best that you can. Trust me, no one on the site will read your story if it's just a quantity story for the sake of earning 1 lousey point in the Survivor contest.

As a writer, I need to be true to my skill, my art, my gift, and my passion and to think that I'm cheating the system by writing quantity stories that are only 750-1,000 for the sake of winning a contest is only cheating myself and I won't do it.

Good luck to that writer who believes that this is not a quality contest but just a contest where you throw words on a piece of paper and pretend that you have a story that has no beginning, no middle, no ending, no dialogue, no character development, no tension, no sex, no erotica, no point, no plot, just nothing but a Survivor point.

Who wants to write like that? That would ruin me as a writer if I wrote shit stories instead of trying to constantly and continually improve my writing skills.

Missing the point, big time is not something that drives me to compete in this contest. Even with the few stories I've posted and still have to post for the Valentine contest, I've already written nearly 200,000 words. No doubt, nearly the same amount of words that this writer, who believes this is a quantity contest, will write to win this contest.

Oh, yeah, without doubt, with all my extra and wasted words, I'll lose winning this contest this year again. Maybe I'll finish in second, but I'll be a better writer than when I started writing in this contest.

Good luck to everyone. It is what it is.