a companion to 30 in 30

[Tsotha]

Comment on 1-2:

The infamous bonsai poem has been long overdue for an edit. I started a thread about it and many have graciously offered their suggestions (thank you, I appreciate it).

I didn't come back to it until now because I was overwhelmed with all the feedback. Some agreed, some disagreed, but they each made sense within the context in which they were given. I wanted to embrace more than a few. However, as soon as I put the scalpel to the poem, it screamed. The change felt wrong. But was it wrong, or was I just being a fool, throwing away good advice?

I thought the cheesy "time gives perspective" would have helped me, but it didn't, here. What did help me was having a plan, a clear objective. Here is my advice to other newbies: do not judge the changes right as you edit, or you'll go nowhere. Make a plan, execute it, THEN judge how it turned out.

The version I posted is actually one of three edits, the one I liked most. Damn, I should have cheated, posting one each day.

For reference, here is the plan:

1) Remove "pushing the envelope" (overwhelming reaction against it)
2) Take butters and Angeline's advice to trim
3) Take Remec's suggestion for the title
4) Reformat the poem into a box, if possible
5) Use 1201's idea of framing devices
6) Work on the meaning of the last three lines, as per greenmountaineer's suggestion
7) Removing sustaining / sustained repetition
8) Try to align gnarled / starved, things / limbs
9) Try to remove "you and me", as per Senna Jawa's suggestion

 

[butters]

i have great respect for those who work at editing, since i'm notoriously bad at it and sometimes years pass before i can revisit and see all the improvements that can be made. so, kudos to tso, gm and ang and anyone who takes part in the revision thread. i'm working on feeling ashamed... not quite there yet.

 

[greenmountaineer]

Tsotha,

Yes, the original was good. The edited version was a "Wow." I don't say that easily.

First of all, I thought the title change was remarkable, and then you followed it with a simple declarative sentence. The two together set the stage for developing the tree into a metaphor. It reminded me of what Billy Collins once said(I'm paraphrasing here) If there's any place to "tell more than show" ie, describe rather than infer, it's in the beginning of the poem. In other words, don't confuse the reader before you stretch his or her imagination with what follows.

I thought "Gnarled/by force, fed by roots too starved" is one of the better examples of how enjambment can work effectively into the next line. For me the brief 2 pauses built a tension in the poem, consistent with the narrative.

 

[Wintermute01]

Droppin in some jazz for my pal Wintermute, who labors on in the original 30/30 thread.

Thanks Angie, much appreciated. It was a busy day here so I struggled to squeeze in under the wire.

To reciprocate your musical gift, there is only one track that one can play when things are submitted this close to the deadline

 

[Angeline]

Thanks Angie, much appreciated. It was a busy day here so I struggled to squeeze in under the wire.

To reciprocate your musical gift, there is only one track that one can play when things are submitted this close to the deadline

Ah now that is just beautiful! This morning I was going to post the Modern Jazz Quartet playing that same song for you. Great minds.

Unfortunately I don't know that I will make my first of 30 edit poems today. Our kids (who are young adults) seem to be all having a needy day at the same time! Ah well, it'll be quieter in my house tomorrow....

 

[Tsotha]

Tsotha,

Yes, the original was good. The edited version was a "Wow." I don't say that easily.

First of all, I thought the title change was remarkable, and then you followed it with a simple declarative sentence. The two together set the stage for developing the tree into a metaphor. It reminded me of what Billy Collins once said(I'm paraphrasing here) If there's any place to "tell more than show" ie, describe rather than infer, it's in the beginning of the poem. In other words, don't confuse the reader before you stretch his or her imagination with what follows.

I thought "Gnarled/by force, fed by roots too starved" is one of the better examples of how enjambment can work effectively into the next line. For me the brief 2 pauses built a tension in the poem, consistent with the narrative.

Thank you, greenmountaineer; high praise indeed.

The title, first line and last two lines came from thinking about twelveoone's "framing devices", Senna Jawa's critique of the effect of using "you and me" in the poem and Remec's idea. I don't think this poem is anywhere nearly as complicated as twelveoone's "I, the shadow" (which benefits greatly from having a "tell" at the beginning), but I'd rather tell a little bit than let the poem fail to connect by going over someone's head.

The "Gnarled / by force, fed by roots too starved" was a result of being resolute about trimming. It was hard letting some words go, but it had to be done. Much like a bonsai, now that I think about it.

Thanks Angie, much appreciated. It was a busy day here so I struggled to squeeze in under the wire.

To reciprocate your musical gift, there is only one track that one can play when things are submitted this close to the deadline

I think you meant this music, Wintermute.

 

[Angeline]

My 1-1 edit

is a reworking of three separate pieces I originally wrote in the 30 new poems thread. I still have another six pieces or so (from the same thread). I hope, eventually, to weave most of them into one poem (so I may be adding to this later).

My main focus with these first three pieces is to eliminate unnecessary language or sidetracks and put the pieces in a timeline that is accurate. I'm also working on expressing the theme across the whole piece to make it cohesive. And I want to make it sound like the music, too: I want the reader to hear the music (sort of).

 

[greenmountaineer]

Angie,

I began thinking of this in both versions:

"Blowin' In The Wind"

How many roads must a man walk down
Before you call him a man?
How many seas must a white dove sail
Before she sleeps in the sand?
Yes, how many times must the cannon balls fly
Before they're forever banned?
The answer my friend is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind.

Am I projecting, or is it part of your timeline?

 

[Angeline]

Angie,

I began thinking of this in both versions:

"Blowin' In The Wind"

How many roads must a man walk down
Before you call him a man?
How many seas must a white dove sail
Before she sleeps in the sand?
Yes, how many times must the cannon balls fly
Before they're forever banned?
The answer my friend is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind.

Am I projecting, or is it part of your timeline?

Well not per se, but the finished poem will cover a period from the late 1940s to about 1964 so the cultural "feel" you got does kind of fit with where the poem is going. Lol, is that an obscure enough answer for you? I guess what I'm trying to say is that the poem is not, for example, about the Civil Rights movement but that movement was certainly informed by some of the stuff that will be alluded to in the completed poem.

 

[greenmountaineer]

Well not per se, but the finished poem will cover a period from the late 1940s to about 1964 so the cultural "feel" you got does kind of fit with where the poem is going. Lol, is that an obscure enough answer for you? I guess what I'm trying to say is that the poem is not, for example, about the Civil Rights movement but that movement was certainly informed by some of the stuff that will be alluded to in the completed poem.

I didn't think it was, but the connection I made in my mind with "Swing" and WWII on the one hand and Dylan's lines with Vietnam on the other suggested a possible connection, given what you wrote about timeline.

Nonetheless, folk music with Swing and Jazz does seem like mixing oil and water, so in spite of it being a genuine question, it was a bit naïve.

I look forward to seeing how this poem finishes.

 

[Angeline]

I didn't think it was, but the connection I made in my mind with "Swing" and WWII on the one hand and Dylan's lines with Vietnam on the other suggested a possible connection, given what you wrote about timeline.

Nonetheless, folk music with Swing and Jazz does seem like mixing oil and water, so in spite of it being a genuine question, it was a bit naïve.

I look forward to seeing how this poem finishes.

I think if you listen to gospel music, old stuff like Sister Rosetta Tharpe and then say The Staples Singers (who covered Blowin In The Wind), you can see a connection is there and, like with most other American music genres, it's the blues.

The stuff I was writing about "blowing" and "wind" and "breath" both refers to the sound of reed instruments and to a song Lester Young wrote called Blowed and Gone, which was later covered by Dexter Gordon and others.

I know it's esoteric, but this stuff fascinates me.

Thank you for asking, gm.

 

[Tsotha]

is a reworking of three separate pieces I originally wrote in the 30 new poems thread. I still have another six pieces or so (from the same thread). I hope, eventually, to weave most of them into one poem (so I may be adding to this later).

My main focus with these first three pieces is to eliminate unnecessary language or sidetracks and put the pieces in a timeline that is accurate. I'm also working on expressing the theme across the whole piece to make it cohesive. And I want to make it sound like the music, too: I want the reader to hear the music (sort of).

The references go over my head, but I like what you've done with the pieces. The second stanza has some nice enjambment in it ("the giant steps / recede." and "the wind blows / changes, blows steady on."). The marquee now looks like a marquee, and the Bebop piece reads better (had some crazy line breaks before, imho).

The marquee piece and the Bebop piece make their references evident — names of musicians on the marquee, and names of places / songs (?) on the Bebop part. But what about the first one? I thought it was a pattern, so I went looking for "erosion Jack, dust and the eternal return", but got nothing. Just something to think about...

(...or not, I'm grasping at straws...)

 

[Angeline]

The references go over my head, but I like what you've done with the pieces. The second stanza has some nice enjambment in it ("the giant steps / recede." and "the wind blows / changes, blows steady on."). The marquee now looks like a marquee, and the Bebop piece reads better (had some crazy line breaks before, imho).

The marquee piece and the Bebop piece make their references evident — names of musicians on the marquee, and names of places / songs (?) on the Bebop part. But what about the first one? I thought it was a pattern, so I went looking for "erosion Jack, dust and the eternal return", but got nothing. Just something to think about...

(...or not, I'm grasping at straws...)

I think you've really strengthened your bonsai poem. I like the way you condensed it and worked with the spacing and the line breaks.

Thanks for the feedback on my 1-1. The line you quoted references the phrase "ashes to ashes, dust to dust," erosion turns mountains to dust and Jack is a rhetorical flourish. The eternal return is a reference that I hope will make more sense when I get the other parts together because I'm trying with the theme to say something about continuity across generations. But maybe I'll change it. Lol. It depends on how I feel about it next time I think about it!

The marquee stuff, including the line in parentheses, was on an actual marquee I saw in an old photograph.

If the finished poem ends up where I want it to be, people will get the jazz references. We'll see.

 

[Tsotha]

Major rewrite on your 1-2, GM. You seem to have inverted the strategy, the original was perhaps heavy-handed with mentions of buying a meal for a sick person, washing feet and a queendom in heaven. The edited version has the tell on the title ("St. Lizzie"), and things in the text are toned down to implied. I think it is a good move...

Interesting lack of punctuation. Reading through, it's like a chain of events in my mind, one thing pulling another. It adds a breathless quality to it, I feel a bit of rinse and repeat to Lizzie's nights. The only lines that gave me pause were S2 L3-5. I absolutely cannot explain why, but the first time I read it, it felt off. It's probably nothing...

I might have been confused with the mention of hitching from Memphis and Chicago, after getting off a train, and at the same time I was thinking that he was riding the train from Memphis to Chicago, then comes a mention of being a persona non grata at the depot... It was a bit too much context-swapping in three lines (for the first read). But again, I'm not sure.

All in all, major improvement, imho.

(Oh, by the way, you've marked it as 2-2 instead of 1-2.)

 

[Tsotha]

Comment on 1-3:

The plan was to merge poems #15 and #21, two of my early poems which are pretty sloppy. The result is... well, a tiny bit better. Both #15 and #21 were written with a "blitz" rhythm in mind. They are supposed to be read fast and furious, and to come across as a stream of consciousness. Whether that's a good thing or not is arguable. It seemed like a great idea, months ago.

I tried to trim a bit, keeping the "blitz" feel but making it look less sloppy.

 

[greenmountaineer]

Major rewrite on your 1-2, GM. You seem to have inverted the strategy, the original was perhaps heavy-handed with mentions of buying a meal for a sick person, washing feet and a queendom in heaven. The edited version has the tell on the title ("St. Lizzie"), and things in the text are toned down to implied. I think it is a good move...

Interesting lack of punctuation. Reading through, it's like a chain of events in my mind, one thing pulling another. It adds a breathless quality to it, I feel a bit of rinse and repeat to Lizzie's nights. The only lines that gave me pause were S2 L3-5. I absolutely cannot explain why, but the first time I read it, it felt off. It's probably nothing...

I might have been confused with the mention of hitching from Memphis and Chicago, after getting off a train, and at the same time I was thinking that he was riding the train from Memphis to Chicago, then comes a mention of being a persona non grata at the depot... It was a bit too much context-swapping in three lines (for the first read). But again, I'm not sure.

All in all, major improvement, imho.

(Oh, by the way, you've marked it as 2-2 instead of 1-2.)

Good feedback on S2 L3-5. Joey's a mentally ill person too. He could be Lizzie's former lover or just a friend. I used to work with criminal offenders who often look for a "geographic cure" for their problems by moving away. Mentally ill street people are often viewed stereotypically the same way criminals are. These poor souls, in fact, tend to stay put because they are afraid of unfamiliar surroundings. So I was re-inforcing the very same stereotype I was trying to break down in the portrait of Lizzie. Your comment got me thinking in that direction.

By "a tenth of her profits" and Salvation Army/shirt" I'm trying to display Lizzie's love and compassion, using "Joey" as an example of that. I have to figure out a different way to do that. I intend to return to do this as a further edit in the challenge.

I guess I don't understand the numbering system, this being my first 30 in 30 challenge. I thought the second poem on day 2 would be listed as 2-2. Please correct my misunderstanding.

 

[Tsotha]

I guess I don't understand the numbering system, this being my first 30 in 30 challenge. I thought the second poem on day 2 would be listed as 2-2. Please correct my misunderstanding.

X-Y

Y is the current poem in this attempt of the challenge. So it will go from 1 to 30.

X is the current attempt of the challenge. So, it will be 1 until you finish it (either by reaching 30 or dropping out in the middle), and then if you attempt again, it will be 2 (to mark it as your second participation). And so on.

 

[greenmountaineer]

Comment on 1-3:

The plan was to merge poems #15 and #21, two of my early poems which are pretty sloppy. The result is... well, a tiny bit better. Both #15 and #21 were written with a "blitz" rhythm in mind. They are supposed to be read fast and furious, and to come across as a stream of consciousness. Whether that's a good thing or not is arguable. It seemed like a great idea, months ago.

I tried to trim a bit, keeping the "blitz" feel but making it look less sloppy.

I'd eliminate the "carpe diem, Baby" in the body of the poem. It works better as the title IMO and frankly it sounds like a cliché to me in the original. Keep it, of course, if you think it enhances that "blitz" you're alluding to by which I'm assuming you mean frenetic pace, but in that case, I think ought to re-visit your verbs. I read "kickstart" and "shove" but "fade away" tends to create an opposite image in my mind. I know it's a short poem but I'd pack more "blitz" words into it with perhaps a fifth faster paced stanza before ending it with "so reckless."

 

[Tsotha]

I'd eliminate the "carpe diem, Baby" in the body of the poem. It works better as the title IMO and frankly it sounds like a cliché to me in the original. Keep it, of course, if you think it enhances that "blitz" you're alluding to by which I'm assuming you mean frenetic pace, but in that case, I think ought to re-visit your verbs. I read "kickstart" and "shove" but "fade away" tends to create an opposite image in my mind. I know it's a short poem but I'd pack more "blitz" words into it with perhaps a fifth faster paced stanza before ending it with "so reckless."

I think carpe diem anywhere near it is a cliché. I guess the "carpe diem, baby" in the original was supposed to be a flippant comment by the narrator on having to do everything as fast as possible. I don't think it's necessary, though — ideally, the poem itself should convey that, without the narrator having to say it. Very good catch with the verbs, I'll have to rethink them. Thank you for the feedback!

 

[Wintermute01]

I think you meant this music, Wintermute.

Oh yes! I agree that's much more appropriate Tsotha.

 

[twelveoone]

Comment on 1-2:

The infamous bonsai poem has been long overdue for an edit. I started a thread about it and many have graciously offered their suggestions (thank you, I appreciate it).

I didn't come back to it until now because I was overwhelmed with all the feedback. Some agreed, some disagreed, but they each made sense within the context in which they were given. I wanted to embrace more than a few. However, as soon as I put the scalpel to the poem, it screamed. The change felt wrong. But was it wrong, or was I just being a fool, throwing away good advice?

I thought the cheesy "time gives perspective" would have helped me, but it didn't, here. What did help me was having a plan, a clear objective. Here is my advice to other newbies: do not judge the changes right as you edit, or you'll go nowhere. Make a plan, execute it, THEN judge how it turned out.

The version I posted is actually one of three edits, the one I liked most. Damn, I should have cheated, posting one each day.

For reference, here is the plan:

1) Remove "pushing the envelope" (overwhelming reaction against it)
2) Take butters and Angeline's advice to trim
3) Take Remec's suggestion for the title
4) Reformat the poem into a box, if possible
5) Use 1201's idea of framing devices
6) Work on the meaning of the last three lines, as per greenmountaineer's suggestion
7) Removing sustaining / sustained repetition
8) Try to align gnarled / starved, things / limbs
9) Try to remove "you and me", as per Senna Jawa's suggestion

IF...half of the people did half of what you just did here, the place would reach critical mass.

 

[Tsotha]

IF...half of the people did half of what you just did here, the place would reach critical mass.

I hope it's not the kind of critical mass that results in the Literotica servers collapsing into themselves, proceeding to tear apart the Earth, and then the moon, and soon the entire Solar System.

Yeah, thank you.

Comment on 1-4:

Egads. What can I say... I blame Angeline for giving me the idea. (Kidding, thank you Angie )

I don't know whether this was intentional, but your spacing almost makes this a shape poem: I can see the shape of the bonsai tree in it and that the tree is skewed to one side, not perfect, which seemed a theme of the poem to me. So that is just a great marriage of content and form.

Ok, I've had enough of the bonsai, now. We'll be back with more traditional editing tomorrow.

 

[twelveoone]

reread the comment which is:
but your spacing almost makes this a shape poem: I can see the shape of the bonsai tree in it and that the tree is skewed to one side, not perfect, which seemed a theme of the poem to me. So that is just a great marriage of content and form.

I don't know the intent of the comment, but you have to be careful giving too much away.

 

[Tsotha]

reread the comment which is:
but your spacing almost makes this a shape poem: I can see the shape of the bonsai tree in it and that the tree is skewed to one side, not perfect, which seemed a theme of the poem to me. So that is just a great marriage of content and form.

I don't know the intent of the comment, but you have to be careful giving too much away.

I'm happy with the original version (the one that's posted). 1-4 is just me playing with crayons. (trying to make evident the stylized bonsai Angeline and I have seen)

 

[Tsotha]

GM's 1-3

That's a strange / funny piece, GM. I liked the original version, and thought it was pretty good. As for your changes:

1) I like that you've expanded the poem. I feel it is of the kind that can use more words, rather than fewer. The "padding" doesn't detract, here — it is part of the timing, in delivering the story.

2) Possible typo in stanza 4: "and wouldn't make it America," — did you mean in America?

3) I thought it was strange that you used quotation marks in stanze 5-8, but not in stanza 4. It also seems to be missing on the first line of the fifth stanza ("Indeed, not to worry", he repeated).

4) Why "Dadist"? "Dung Diddly Dada" seems to fit better (the sound), and I don't see the connection between dadaism and the rest of the poem (maybe I'm missing something, and I have considered that there is more here than cracking a joke at academia, but I can't see it — yet).

5) Why Little Rock? Is it similar to Australia, or are you making a joke with the people who live there?

6) I feel you've lost something when you replaced the original third stanza for stanze 4-8 in the edited version, both in the lines there ("Manhattan would soon fall in line"; "the art of post neo formal trogloraptors" — I'm pulling those from memory, which means they stuck with me) and in the tone. The conversational San Francisco piece doesn't carry quite the same punch, perhaps because of interruptions (he said, in that dark stormy night, etc.).