A serious discussion about BDSM and weight

[intothewoods]

As far not trusting a Dom or Top because he or she is overweight, it's a choice, but I've just never found it to be a good indicator. To me, the Tops I play with and the man I submit to are human beings, and so they are in control in a lot of areas in their life, but struggle in others.

One of my good friends in the scene with whom I play with a lot is obese, although he is now on a doctor-monitored program and has lost 70lbs and is still losing. As his friend, I'm glad he's losing the weight, but I've never once felt unsafe with him. The man has been in the scene for over 15 years, has taught extensively and just plain knows what he's doing. He's also really respectful and patient and cool. If I chose not to play with him based on weight, I'd really be missing out.

 

[EmpressFi]

Can I ask why you make this statement? I have had ADHD my whole life, but I've never been especially active in a keeping-thin way. I'm just curious what link you see between thinness and ADHD.

I was kinda wondering that myself. I have ADHD, my nephew does too I'm a size 22 and have struggled with my weight forever and he has weight issues too, even when he was on ritalin.

I'm overweight.. so is Malin and so is Master. We're all working on it, working on making better food choices and better activities. It is a struggle and at times a mental addiction. Just as I used to crave a cigarette when I would get stressed out.. I also wanted food.. and not healthy stuff.. I wanted chocolate and french fries covered in cheese and bacon..

But it's up to me to control me.

 

[FurryFury]

Brilliant ! I'ts been a long time since I've heard good common sense like this. When I was a kid, I used to go to a beautiful Carnegie Library built at the turn of the century (Carnegie built 2,500 of these around the world). - and it was the source of a lot of the knowledge I still have today - a half century later !

Has anyone ever heard of slide rules ? I am trying to persuade my son's private school to introduce this wonderful instrument of computation instead of calculators - and have had the joy of actually giving some slide rule lessons to those in grade 7 & 8.

But we are getting away from the weight & BDSM thread - perhaps this could go on a different forum under the title of "what to do about innumeracy".

Yes, my daughter used one last year for her Geometry class. It used to be my grandfathers.

This year my son will use it.

This, to me, is a family treasure.

Not that I don't also use calculators or enjoy electronics mind you!

 

[BeachGurl2]

People who consider other classes of people inferior are usually convinced they're enlightening the savages who just don't see it that way.

I get why you put this the way you did, Netz, but I just don't see that anyone is calling anyone else 'inferior'. It's just the same as the people who pointed out to me that I was taking comments personally and turning them into someone calling me a 'bigot'. No one here has said that obese people are inferior. At least not that I've read.

The rest is just general comments on what I've read since I last was here. There's just too much to respond to specifically, although I may quote a couple people in a bit.

Incubus' sub stated her opinion about the obvious direction people are taking. Hiding our heads in the sand doesn't make the problem of obesity go away. It is still there and is still a problem. I don't believe that the problem is caused necessarily by laziness (although I think we can all admit some people may have this problem), as some have implied. And I don't think it's a problem that has one source nor one solution. But attacking Incubus' sub because her statements weren't couched in sweet words isn't the way to go, either. Hell, several comments have been made about 'skinny sticks' and I'm not going to attack the ones who said it, although I will call them on their hypocrisy - it's okay to attack because I'm not overweight? Uh, it works both ways, people.

It's a fact that, at least in the US, people are growing larger every year. It's a fact that health care costs are rising due to not only increased weight, but other bad lifestyle choices as well. I think that for anyone to pretend the problems don't exist is as silly as someone trying to say that one thing will fix it all. The problems are complex and require complex solutions. But at the very least, the problems require a dialogue. Warm fuzzies aren't going to do it, although they will make people feel better about themselves. And I think the fact that so many people react so violently to any discussion about it, just as they do to all emotionally charged topics, suggests it's a tough discussion but that it still has to happen at some level some time.

I am not saying that anyone here or anywhere else shouldn't love who they are, regardless of size. Hell, I've had a bad body image my whole life - I hated my body when I was a college freshman and weighed 100 pounds soaking wet and was a size 0, I hated my body when I was a size 16, and I struggle to like my body now, when I'm in decent shape and in a size 6 but everything is beginning to shift and sag and I can't seem to get rid of my tummy. So I'm all for anyone who is comfortable in their own skin, no matter their size. They're a leg up on me.

Netz, every time someone has offered a suggestion to get kids or people active, you've offered up some reason why that just isn't possible for some people. I realize that some people live in areas where it is difficult to do. But continuing to offer excuse after excuse is just that - an excuse. I own an exercise bike and a portable stair stepper. When I'm feeling energetic, I can put the stair stepper anywhere I want and step away. I have tons of exercise videos from all of my years of doing diet after diet. I even have an old Callinetics video, if anyone remembers that from the pre-pilates days. If there is an exercise craze out there, you can bet I tried it. If there is a diet craze out there or a diet pill, you can bet I've tried it. Alli, the new craze at Walmart? Did it while it was still prescription. Believe me, I've done them all. And if you can't afford the $20 I spent at Walmart on the stepper, then come visit me, because I live on the third floor and there's no elevator. You can walk my steps to your heart's content. But my point is that everyone has the ability to get moving if they want, even when they live in a bad neighborhood, and offering up constant excuses is allowing a victim mentality to pervail. The victim mentality is one of my pet peeves about our society - blame someone else because I can't possibly be responsible. That is one thing I'm sick to death of.

At some point, every single one of us has to accept responsibility for the choices we make in life. I accept the fact that it bothers me that we are growing larger as a society. Am I obsessed with it? No. Although I think several people here think I am. It is something that I notice because I travel a lot in my job, I fly on a lot of airplanes - and let me just tell you how comfortable THAT is. But it is something that concerns me on several levels.

I was at Disneyland for the 4th of July - my birthday present to myself. I took Bratgirl and her best friend - yes, Disneyland with 2 teenage girls. We had a blast. And on every ride in the park, there was someone who complained when the seat wasn't big enough for them to sit with their party. Every single ride. I didn't notice it until it became the norm rather than the exception. I found it interesting that rather than just take the next car or boat or whatever, these people felt it was their right to lodge a complaint that the ride wasn't big enough for them. When we encountered a ride that didn't hold the 3 of us together, we just split up. End of story. That's how life works. But it was the victim mentality all over again. Accommodate me. Cater to me. And no, this isn't something that only overweight people do. It's pervasive.

What's the point of that? Well, to piss people off, of course. Of course it's not, although it will succeed in doing just that. The point is that it is a problem in our society. I remember being a kid and knowing how terribly cruel kids were to the kids who didn't fit into the 'in' crowd. No, I wasn't one of the 'in' crowd. I was one of those kids who was kind of on the edges of things, blending into most crowds at one time or another but never really belonging to any of them. I went through a pudgy phase in junior high and I have freckles on my legs. The kids at my school had never seen a girl with freckles on her legs. In gym class, I was pretty terrorized because of it. I hated school and called home every Monday claiming sick so I could just leave because Monday was gym day. My mom finally wised up one Monday after talking to the principal and took me straight to the doctor. Then right back to school when he pronounced me healthy. And I endured the taunts because I had fat, freckled thighs.

Kids are very cruel. I know what terror awaited the fat kids in school. The fatter the kid, the worse the treatment. I was on the low end of fat in junior high, but the freckles added to my victim profile just a bit to move me up the ladder. Of course, when I weighed about 95 pounds as a high school senior, those same boys wanted in my pants. It's an odd world, isn't it? I hate when I see kids who are given free reign the way seri's friend does her child with the sweets. It's not doing her any favors, is it? I think everyone here agrees on that for more than one reason.

But it's not all about the parents, either. Bratgirl went through a sugar craze phase a few years ago. I would move the sofa to vacuum and find piles of candy wrappers stuffed in the cushions and behind the sofa. They were stuffed under her mattress. I actually stopped buying all sweets at that point and eventually broke her of it. Now she has sweets on occasion, but not very often. Sure I could have allowed her to continue, but then that wouldn't be effective parenting, would it?

Just because Incubus' sub's post wasn't pretty doesn't make it any less real. And I wonder if there's anyone here who can find an untruth in it.

 

[BeachGurl2]

Real danger? Well, I've never played with someone seriously underweight, but have played with very slender gals. A truly underweight person might not have enough soft tissue to soak up the same sort of hits before crush trauma occurs. This would be caused by too little muscle and fat between the skin and bones. Said thin muscle/fat would meet crush trauma much earlier, and not have sufficient mass to disperse force.

Well, I'm certainly not underweight. But I do get what you're saying.

I wrote an article for an online magazine about this. It talked about hygiene, weight, etc and how much that sort of thing affects the appearance of control.

As much as it might offend the sensibilities of some people, if you don't look like you possess the self-control to push away from the feeding trough, how are you going to be able to exercise control over others? And, again, I'm not talking about someone that is overweight or obese or whatever. I'm talking about the really seriously obese people. And if there is a medical issue behind, well, you have my sympathies, but maybe it is time to focus more on self and becoming physically capable of handling another persons safety.

This might offend people, but it is how I feel. I've met doms that I would never allow to, for example, suspend one of my gals. I simply doubt in the person's physical capacity to handle the scene safely. If you are so very fat that you have trouble moving quickly, you should not put someone else in a compromising position that they might need rescuing from. I know I have personally had to move bloody quick in scene before, because something minor went wrong. When one person in the activity is bound up and helpless, you HAVE to be able to react with quickness to a changing situation. When you weight 450lbs, quickness is no longer part of your body's arsenal (well, okay, some professional athletes are the exception to that rule).

I get exactly what you're saying and am in full agreement.

I'm in the minority on a lot of threads

As am I.

 

[Etoile]

The word inferior may not have come up before, but I have definitely seen implications that fat people are grotesque, disgusting, gross, diseased, untouchable, etc. Which is all fine, everybody's entitled to their opinion, but as a fat person I do find those words hurtful. (I'm not blaming anyone in particular, multiple people have made these comments.)

 

[Etoile]

Just because Incubus' sub's post wasn't pretty doesn't make it any less real. And I wonder if there's anyone here who can find an untruth in it.

It was hateful vitriol that I don't care to read again. I took a peek to see what there was, and the idea that it was "unpalatable truths" is just silly. It was hate. I'm not reading such black-hearted stuff further.

 

[Netzach]

I get why you put this the way you did, Netz, but I just don't see that anyone is calling anyone else 'inferior'. It's just the same as the people who pointed out to me that I was taking comments personally and turning them into someone calling me a 'bigot'. No one here has said that obese people are inferior. At least not that I've read.

The rest is just general comments on what I've read since I last was here. There's just too much to respond to specifically, although I may quote a couple people in a bit.

Incubus' sub stated her opinion about the obvious direction people are taking. Hiding our heads in the sand doesn't make the problem of obesity go away. It is still there and is still a problem. I don't believe that the problem is caused necessarily by laziness (although I think we can all admit some people may have this problem), as some have implied. And I don't think it's a problem that has one source nor one solution. But attacking Incubus' sub because her statements weren't couched in sweet words isn't the way to go, either. Hell, several comments have been made about 'skinny sticks' and I'm not going to attack the ones who said it, although I will call them on their hypocrisy - it's okay to attack because I'm not overweight? Uh, it works both ways, people.

It's a fact that, at least in the US, people are growing larger every year. It's a fact that health care costs are rising due to not only increased weight, but other bad lifestyle choices as well. I think that for anyone to pretend the problems don't exist is as silly as someone trying to say that one thing will fix it all. The problems are complex and require complex solutions. But at the very least, the problems require a dialogue. Warm fuzzies aren't going to do it, although they will make people feel better about themselves. And I think the fact that so many people react so violently to any discussion about it, just as they do to all emotionally charged topics, suggests it's a tough discussion but that it still has to happen at some level some time.

I am not saying that anyone here or anywhere else shouldn't love who they are, regardless of size. Hell, I've had a bad body image my whole life - I hated my body when I was a college freshman and weighed 100 pounds soaking wet and was a size 0, I hated my body when I was a size 16, and I struggle to like my body now, when I'm in decent shape and in a size 6 but everything is beginning to shift and sag and I can't seem to get rid of my tummy. So I'm all for anyone who is comfortable in their own skin, no matter their size. They're a leg up on me.

Netz, every time someone has offered a suggestion to get kids or people active, you've offered up some reason why that just isn't possible for some people. I realize that some people live in areas where it is difficult to do. But continuing to offer excuse after excuse is just that - an excuse. I own an exercise bike and a portable stair stepper. When I'm feeling energetic, I can put the stair stepper anywhere I want and step away. I have tons of exercise videos from all of my years of doing diet after diet. I even have an old Callinetics video, if anyone remembers that from the pre-pilates days. If there is an exercise craze out there, you can bet I tried it. If there is a diet craze out there or a diet pill, you can bet I've tried it. Alli, the new craze at Walmart? Did it while it was still prescription. Believe me, I've done them all. And if you can't afford the $20 I spent at Walmart on the stepper, then come visit me, because I live on the third floor and there's no elevator. You can walk my steps to your heart's content. But my point is that everyone has the ability to get moving if they want, even when they live in a bad neighborhood, and offering up constant excuses is allowing a victim mentality to pervail. The victim mentality is one of my pet peeves about our society - blame someone else because I can't possibly be responsible. That is one thing I'm sick to death of.

At some point, every single one of us has to accept responsibility for the choices we make in life. I accept the fact that it bothers me that we are growing larger as a society. Am I obsessed with it? No. Although I think several people here think I am. It is something that I notice because I travel a lot in my job, I fly on a lot of airplanes - and let me just tell you how comfortable THAT is. But it is something that concerns me on several levels.

I was at Disneyland for the 4th of July - my birthday present to myself. I took Bratgirl and her best friend - yes, Disneyland with 2 teenage girls. We had a blast. And on every ride in the park, there was someone who complained when the seat wasn't big enough for them to sit with their party. Every single ride. I didn't notice it until it became the norm rather than the exception. I found it interesting that rather than just take the next car or boat or whatever, these people felt it was their right to lodge a complaint that the ride wasn't big enough for them. When we encountered a ride that didn't hold the 3 of us together, we just split up. End of story. That's how life works. But it was the victim mentality all over again. Accommodate me. Cater to me. And no, this isn't something that only overweight people do. It's pervasive.

What's the point of that? Well, to piss people off, of course. Of course it's not, although it will succeed in doing just that. The point is that it is a problem in our society. I remember being a kid and knowing how terribly cruel kids were to the kids who didn't fit into the 'in' crowd. No, I wasn't one of the 'in' crowd. I was one of those kids who was kind of on the edges of things, blending into most crowds at one time or another but never really belonging to any of them. I went through a pudgy phase in junior high and I have freckles on my legs. The kids at my school had never seen a girl with freckles on her legs. In gym class, I was pretty terrorized because of it. I hated school and called home every Monday claiming sick so I could just leave because Monday was gym day. My mom finally wised up one Monday after talking to the principal and took me straight to the doctor. Then right back to school when he pronounced me healthy. And I endured the taunts because I had fat, freckled thighs.

Kids are very cruel. I know what terror awaited the fat kids in school. The fatter the kid, the worse the treatment. I was on the low end of fat in junior high, but the freckles added to my victim profile just a bit to move me up the ladder. Of course, when I weighed about 95 pounds as a high school senior, those same boys wanted in my pants. It's an odd world, isn't it? I hate when I see kids who are given free reign the way seri's friend does her child with the sweets. It's not doing her any favors, is it? I think everyone here agrees on that for more than one reason.

But it's not all about the parents, either. Bratgirl went through a sugar craze phase a few years ago. I would move the sofa to vacuum and find piles of candy wrappers stuffed in the cushions and behind the sofa. They were stuffed under her mattress. I actually stopped buying all sweets at that point and eventually broke her of it. Now she has sweets on occasion, but not very often. Sure I could have allowed her to continue, but then that wouldn't be effective parenting, would it?

Just because Incubus' sub's post wasn't pretty doesn't make it any less real. And I wonder if there's anyone here who can find an untruth in it.

YOUR excuse is someone else's rational reason.

How many times and ways do I have to explain this? You don't live in anyone's reality but yours. What's realistic for YOU isn't for someone else and what's not realistic for you is completely easy for someone else?

I mean, Jesus, do I have to explain the ignorant things people say about ED? I KNOW if you have ED you've heard them all. It's because those people are imposing THEIR expectations onto someone else's reality. And it totally sucks and if you've heard things I've heard from people, I hope you haven't heard them a lot and I'm sorry you have, because people are fucking cruel. Eating 1200 calories a day for me and seeing myself accurately in a mirror are NEVER going to be challenging things. Not purging my dinner is never going to be weird for me or hard for me. Am I some kind of freak that when other people say horrible things about people purging it upsets me even though I personally don't have that challenge?

I'm able to accept, on someone else's say-so, that it TOOK EVERYTHING IN HER WILLPOWER not to throw up her food today. I can't understand it, but I can accept that given her life it's not easy.

Objectively, it should be totally the easiest thing on earth, no? What the hell do you say to the ignoramuses whose punchlines is "duh just eat a sandwich, what the fuck is wrong with the bitch?"

Bratgirl went through a sugar craze phase a few years ago. I would move the sofa to vacuum and find piles of candy wrappers stuffed in the cushions and behind the sofa. They were stuffed under her mattress.

Didn't the hiding of it bother you more than the eating of it? That was when I knew I was doing emotional eating, when I would avoid people to have my candy in private. That kind of eating was eating for what really required xanax. It wasn't about candy other than in a fast chemical high way.

And I wonder if there's anyone here who can find an untruth in it.

A whole load of them, but who's listening?

 

[BeachGurl2]

Objectively, it should be totally the easiest thing on earth, no?

I never said easy. Nothing in life is easy. And if it is, it probably isn't worth the effort it took to get, in my opinion. Jeez, after everything I've confessed to on this thread just to get people to understand the little corner of the world I reside in, I'd think that at least everyone here realizes that I don't think any of this is easy.

Didn't the hiding of it bother you more than the eating of it? That was when I knew I was doing emotional eating, when I would avoid people to have my candy in private.

Yes, it did. And man, did we have problems dealing with that. There are still things that she hides, things of no consequence whatsoever. Her doc thinks it has to do with her dad not respecting privacy - if it's in his house, it belongs to him. The doc said it wasn't the emotional eating part of it but the hiding part of it that was telling. The fact is that now she hides non-food stuff. It's complicated.

 

[BeachGurl2]

A whole load of them, but who's listening?

Well, I am, but I get the feeling I don't count in that.


ETA: And quit editing your damn posts and just post a new one so I won't have to keep doing this!

 

[cherokee_dove]

BG, i would like to refer you back to this post

http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=28537299&postcount=195

and will show that even though the word "inferior" was not said, putting down "fatties" her term, not mine... was used. Too severely! And that is why she is the only one to have met my iggie bin, and she goes back there after this post.

But you know what? Yes, i may be overweight; but i carry it well, i look good, and i am damn proud of who i am!

And one other thing, i definitely prefer being me; than an anorexic who is puking themselves to their deaths a whole lot sooner than i am!

This is just a part of her post

i do believe that it's time that obese people were called on it without pulling the punches, same as with smokers, alcoholics, junkies. your obesity IS impacting on my life in just the same way. it costs a fortune to keep you alive with all the preventative diseases you give yourselves.

fat is not attractive to most people, even other fatties. how often do we hear and read "i love him/her anyway". that's tolerance and acceptance not oh i'm thrilled that my partner is too fat. ok, i know that there are some who are feeders but it too is a minority.

and to top it all off, i can't stand to watch obese people shovel it in in restaurants either. it's revolting, particularly when they're teaching their fat kids to do the same.

if your kids are fat, do something about it. feed them less, make them move. less stress about their delicate little minds and more action about their pudgy bodies will be better for them for their entire lives.

ok, harsh i know and doesn't take into account socio economic factors, the price of oil or global bloody warming. too much means too fat. stop excusing it, bleating about it, pretending you don't even care and do something about it.

And then for her to start in on the children, anyones children; was just not right!

 

[Netzach]

The word inferior may not have come up before, but I have definitely seen implications that fat people are grotesque, disgusting, gross, diseased, untouchable, etc. Which is all fine, everybody's entitled to their opinion, but as a fat person I do find those words hurtful. (I'm not blaming anyone in particular, multiple people have made these comments.)

Whoa, you are like, SO UNREASONABLE.

 

[Etoile]

Whoa, you are like, SO UNREASONABLE.

I know. I'm just too damn uppity!

 

[Netzach]

Well, I am, but I get the feeling I don't count in that.


ETA: And quit editing your damn posts and just post a new one so I won't have to keep doing this!

Sorry, additive brain.

 

[BeachGurl2]

BG, i would like to refer you back to this post

http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=28537299&postcount=195

and will show that even though the word "inferior" was not said, putting down "fatties" her term, not mine... was used. Too severely! And that is why she is the only one to have met my iggie bin, and she goes back there after this post.

But you know what? Yes, i may be overweight; but i carry it well, i look good, and i am damn proud of who i am!

And one other thing, i definitely prefer being me; than an anorexic who is puking themselves to their deaths a whole lot sooner than i am!

This is just a part of her post



And then for her to start in on the children, anyones children; was just not right!

Okay, point taken on the bolded section. I skimmed most of the post because, damn, y'all have been busy while I was away.

And I think you look great, too. I'm glad that, if nothing else, this thread brought your pic out.

 

[Netzach]

I never said easy. Nothing in life is easy. And if it is, it probably isn't worth the effort it took to get, in my opinion. Jeez, after everything I've confessed to on this thread just to get people to understand the little corner of the world I reside in, I'd think that at least everyone here realizes that I don't think any of this is easy.

Ok, well...I dunno.

If I know that someone's really having a bitch of a time with her math homework, I don't think that asking her why she doesn't have it done on time every day of the semester is really going to address the problem, over and over and over.

If I ask "why don't you have it done" and I hear "well this this and this happened and I don't understand this"

but then treat it as "oh she just gave me some lame dog ate it excuse" no matter WHAT she just said - that's crap.

If someone who can't even do 3x6 when she starts out gets one of the eight algebra problems right, I think that needs to be acknowledged, not the seven she still can't get, beaten into her over and over and "why are you so stupid still?"

That's kind of what we do with people struggling with weight. To gain it or lose it.

The difficulty of changing your weight, metabolism, and shape - with or without surgery to help - is rarely acknowledged except in an Oprah kind of sentimental blechhhhh way. The actual *difficulty* and the need for strategizing and the acceptance of relapse as a common part of the process of getting there are less discussed than "ew fat."

It's not a dispassionate and problem solving thing to look at objections as excuses rather than the problems which *have to be solved in order for it to work.*

The twenty dollar stair stepper is an example of effective problem solving.

math was a good example of this actually - I'm so horrible at it that I strongly suspect undiagnosed LD. Dyslexia was accepted when I was in school but no one thought that there might be numeric equivalents, and I'm fairly certain I have them. Math was harder for me than losing weight.

You could berate someone like me (my family) try to help me through it (a few teachers) and eventually just accept there ARE some limitations on some things (they passed me, thank God.) I did it all. Tutors, extra hours, LONG hours on homework, and still D'd on tests in math. Math only. My SAT score the second time around was 520 after prep classes. The first time I took it, it was 480. (you get 200 points for signing your name and there are probably grade school students who outscore 520)

In a one size must fit all public school system this may have held me back from college. Because I had some people accept who I AM I got into an ivy-equivalent early.

 

[BeachGurl2]

Ok, well...I dunno.

If I know that someone's really having a bitch of a time with her math homework, I don't think that asking her why she doesn't have it done on time every day of the semester is really going to address the problem, over and over and over.

If I ask "why don't you have it done" and I hear "well this this and this happened and I don't understand this"

but then treat it as "oh she just gave me some lame dog ate it excuse" no matter WHAT she just said - that's crap.

If someone who can't even do 3x6 when she starts out gets one of the eight algebra problems right, I think that needs to be acknowledged, not the seven she still can't get, beaten into her over and over and "why are you so stupid still?"

That's kind of what we do with people struggling with weight. To gain it or lose it.

The difficulty of changing your weight, metabolism, and shape - with or without surgery to help - is rarely acknowledged except in an Oprah kind of sentimental blechhhhh way. The actual *difficulty* and the need for strategizing and the acceptance of relapse as a common part of the process of getting there are less discussed than "ew fat."

It's not a dispassionate and problem solving thing to look at objections as excuses rather than the problems which *have to be solved in order for it to work.*

The twenty dollar stair stepper is an example of effective problem solving.

math was a good example of this actually - I'm so horrible at it that I strongly suspect undiagnosed LD. Dyslexia was accepted when I was in school but no one thought that there might be numeric equivalents, and I'm fairly certain I have them. Math was harder for me than losing weight.

You could berate someone like me (my family) try to help me through it (a few teachers) and eventually just accept there ARE some limitations on some things (they passed me, thank God.) I did it all. Tutors, extra hours, LONG hours on homework, and still D'd on tests in math. Math only. My SAT score the second time around was 520 after prep classes. The first time I took it, it was 480. (you get 200 points for signing your name and there are probably grade school students who outscore 520)

In a one size must fit all public school system this may have held me back from college. Because I had some people accept who I AM I got into an ivy-equivalent early.

I get your point. My point, though, is that when someone is offering solutions to the problem, and every single solution is shot down, the implication is that it's not about solving the problem, it's about the problem just being part of the person's identity. That's where my frustration comes in. There has to be some solution that's acceptable.

And as an ex-teacher of at-risk high schoolers, I agree that rewarding effort, recognizing each success, is a huge part of helping each person achieve. My belief, from a teacher standpoint, is that every single person has something positive to add to the whole - everyone has a talent, something they do well. So math wasn't your strong suit. So what? There's more to you than your math ability. I talk too much and I'm a bitch about it. Oh well.

 

[incubus'_sub]

thank you netz, re my illness. we're learning to live with it and are grateful the tumour was found before it resulted in the quadraplegia.

i expected fury after my post and i got it. but then i was pretty annoyed by the previous endless excuse posts and attacks on beachgurl too.

if you are fat (or chunky, or cuddly or big or whatever euphamism you prefer) and you have stated that you are, why are you offended by my saying yes, yes you are and suggesting simply that you eat less?

do i hate fat people. no, not as people themselves but as a collective group that is getting bigger by the day, yes. it's a problem, acknowledge it, stop excusing it and maybe the trend will be reversed.

positive reinforcement of forward steps, as in the maths problem, can only go so far. praising what is actually failure achieves nothing but more failure in the long run. sure, encourage, help and praise the effort but don't ignore the failure either. it might be nice but it's not helping the future outcome.

some posters have mentioned the double standard, that it's fine to comment on too thin. true. after my surgery i lost 10kgs, say about 22lbs. i was very, very sick. without exception every person i met for a couple of months told me how thin i was. no, i wasn't offended in the least because it was true and they were trying to show that they cared about me.

 

[Homburg]

You could berate someone like me (my family) try to help me through it (a few teachers) and eventually just accept there ARE some limitations on some things (they passed me, thank God.) I did it all. Tutors, extra hours, LONG hours on homework, and still D'd on tests in math. Math only. My SAT score the second time around was 520 after prep classes. The first time I took it, it was 480. (you get 200 points for signing your name and there are probably grade school students who outscore 520)

In a one size must fit all public school system this may have held me back from college. Because I had some people accept who I AM I got into an ivy-equivalent early.

The first time I took the SAT was in the 7th grade or so, as part of a program that Duke was doing. I got an 850. They had me take it every year thereafter, and I improved my score by about 100pts every year. I didn't take it in my senior year, as my previous year's scores were good enough to get me anywhere I would've wanted to go. Oddly enough, I did NOT do well on the PSAT in my junior year. You'd think after all the SAT's that I would've nailed the PSAT. Nope.

That said, I'm not a brilliant guy. I just test really, really well, and always have. It sucks, actually, as I can game a test and deconstruct it, and can figure out answers on subject matter that I'm clueless on. This means I do better in courses than I really should be able to do so insofar as the quality of my retention and learning is concerned.

It's one of those "If yer so smart, why ain't you rich?" things. Le sigh.

 

[Netzach]

if you are fat (or chunky, or cuddly or big or whatever euphamism you prefer) and you have stated that you are, why are you offended by my saying yes, yes you are and suggesting simply that you eat less?

See what Bridgeburner says. It's a "really, no shit?" kind of thing to say to someone. Why don't you just stop shooting smack? It's a ludicrous thing to assume this just never occurred to the person. And that's really the only reason to make a "suggestion" isn't it, the assumption that it just hasn't been considered.

Additionally, the idea that I can't possibly be attractive to anyone in my present state is not only insulting, but untrue. Not in a "gee I accept it" way either. Especially to have these things stated with something like assured expertise by someone else.

no, not as people themselves but as a collective group that is getting bigger by the day, yes

Well, throughout history there's always been "The Problem." "The Negro Problem." "The lavender menace." It's total dehumanization and it never solved any of those "problems." It's just more acceptable to treat people based that way on body shape. Among some people, anyway.

positive reinforcement of forward steps, as in the maths problem, can only go so far. praising what is actually failure achieves nothing but more failure in the long run. sure, encourage, help and praise the effort but don't ignore the failure either. it might be nice but it's not helping the future outcome.

some posters have mentioned the double standard, that it's fine to comment on too thin. true. after my surgery i lost 10kgs, say about 22lbs. i was very, very sick. without exception every person i met for a couple of months told me how thin i was. no, i wasn't offended in the least because it was true and they were trying to show that they cared about me.

I heard that too. It was interesting, because I kept hearing "wow you look so GREAT!.

"How great it was that you almost lost your colon and died of a blood clot as long as we like how you look better."

It showed they didn't give a fuck about me.

This whole idea that imperfection is coddled too much, yeah, I'm just not seeing it. I'm not seeing the "victim classes" taking over. I'm seeing a pretty ruthless world with no shortage of cruelty and reminders to everyone of how much they suck because of some superficial reason. With the math - was it "coddling" me to say "fuck it, this is what we get, she tried, look what else she has to offer and the package is otherwise great?" Should the Latin, Art, French, Biology and community service get pitched out because it's not "perfect?"

 

[Netzach]

What exactly do people who are in favor of tough love think that this does for anyone outside their intimate circles? Do you think insulting people you purport to care oh so much about is doing them some kind of favor that, oh, information doesn't?


Like, "stop fucking like rabbits faggots!" solves the AIDS crisis.

I can maybe see this with your family. Or your spouse or kids.

But with people you aren't this connected to, there's no "love" in it at all. Get real. You don't worry about whether those people put on their safety belts, do you?

I think an MD has the right. MY MD.

 

[Netzach]

The first time I took the SAT was in the 7th grade or so, as part of a program that Duke was doing. I got an 850. They had me take it every year thereafter, and I improved my score by about 100pts every year. I didn't take it in my senior year, as my previous year's scores were good enough to get me anywhere I would've wanted to go. Oddly enough, I did NOT do well on the PSAT in my junior year. You'd think after all the SAT's that I would've nailed the PSAT. Nope.

That said, I'm not a brilliant guy. I just test really, really well, and always have. It sucks, actually, as I can game a test and deconstruct it, and can figure out answers on subject matter that I'm clueless on. This means I do better in courses than I really should be able to do so insofar as the quality of my retention and learning is concerned.

It's one of those "If yer so smart, why ain't you rich?" things. Le sigh.

The prep class, which was one of those bougie things my mother scrimped for because she was FREAKING out I might not get into a good school (insanity) was basically just that. How to test. How to understand the logic of the test, for people who obviously didn't the first time around.

The math, well you know. Not much bang for that buck. My verbal went from 90th percentile to 98th percentile. Without having it explained to me though that particular logic puzzle would have eluded me - that's a skill by itself.

I'm not rich either, in fact in debt for being smart up to the time I went in debt for being sick. I don't regret the first round of debt.

 

[graceanne]

And again - why is it okay to say that an average height woman wearing a size 6/8 is grotesque? Why is it any less offensive than saying a signifigantly overweight person is undesirable?

I missed this. *shakes head* Let's be honest, it's not being overweight that's socially unacceptable, it's not being the 'normal' weight that's unacceptable. Maybe people are more upfront with the fat person, but there's so many comments made about slim people. You know, calling them sticks or fragile. My aunt is 5'10" and has never been in anything bigger than an 8. People used flat out accuse her of being anorexic.

 

[Netzach]

Maybe the only solution would be to just wear T shirts saying "MYOB" all the time everywhere, everyone. I'm only half kidding.

people, self included, spend way too much time up in each others' shit and not enough in their own. It's probably some kind of eleventh commandment that got edited out.

I guess Jesus covered it later on, come to think of it, but we think of him as this ultra deep guy so don't apply it. Zen pretty much IS it and nothing but it. Mind your own business, and then, no mind. No business.

 

[graceanne]

Well I have to say, my kids are one reason why I don't judge others. I did breast feed both. Fed them the same things. I'm a vegetarian but my husband's not so they got both soy products and meat.

One of the kids is pretty thin and can't gain weight like I was at his age but my daughter who has also gone veggie a couple of years ago (not my idea) happens to be what I like to call big boned.

She exercises. She eats right. She still weighs more than the rest of us, other than my husband. She may well weigh more than him one day.

Granted she lost this summer. Everyone else in our family did but me.

Still I have to think she has some sort of predisposition to being a bit bigger. I know it's not due to lifestyle or what she does or does not eat. This is why I more than ever, don't judge others.

Happily I've always taught both of my kids to love and appreciate their bodies. They are NOT as self conscious as I am. My parents wanted me to perfect 24 / 7. That didn't work out well at all.

I have what I now know is called an 'overactive let down'. (I could feed triplets and have left overs.) I breast fed my oldest for three months, as suggested. She had horrible colic that whole time, we were both miserable. PLUS, she's the sickest of my kids - if it's going around she'll get it. She had, until she was three and had her tonsils and adnoids removed and tubes put in her ears, chronic strep, chronic bronchitis, and chronic ear infections. She is currently using two inhalers (one's a steroid inhaler) and two allergy meds to breathe. I nursed her the longest, and she's the least healthy of my kids.

My middle girl I nursed two months, then went into a REALLY bad crohns flare that nearly killed me. I dried up completely, and we had to switch her to formula. We realized, QUICKLY, that she is lactose intolerant, so she was on soy formula. I suspect she's celiac, but other than that she's healthy as a horse, rarely gets sick.

My son I nursed a week. I needed to go back on my crohns meds PROMPTLY, as I was already beginning to flare. I wanted to make sure he got the antibodies that are in the colastrum (sp?). The hospital nurses were very impressed. Of course THEY knew how engorged I was going to be - I had no idea. I still would have done it, but I would have understood why they were so impressed. LOL He's healthy as can be. Granted, he's ADHD; but he gets that from his dad who got it from his dad, and I'd bet money that his dad was ADHD too. He occasionally gets a runny nose, and constantly has a stubbed toe, but he's got an amazing immune system.

My three oldest are normal kids. My oldest son enjoys soccer and plays on the computer as much as possible. But between his mother's genetics and mine, the boy has the body of a swimmer already. And he loves the water. If he developes lats like his momma, he'll be a fish. My daughters are your normal girls. Oldest daughter is a hugely picky eater with a small appetite generally. She gets overwhelmed by flavours. I think she will not have too much problems with weight as she ages. Youngest son is built like me. At three years old he is solid muscle, and heavy enough that some of viv's friends can't pick him up. Other than the slight remnants of baby fat on him, he's all muscle though. If he developes like me, he'll be a brute. Oddly enough, he's a pretty picky eater too.

So viv and I may be overweight, but nothing says our kids have to be.

My older girl has my body type - weight is going to be a problem for her as she gets older. I've got her signed up to start yoga classes in the fall. She also swims like a fish and runs like a deer. She's very active, and very picky in a good way. She doesn't like a lot of sweets and will actually turn them down if she's had some already that day. She doesn't really like red meat, and keeps trying to switch to vegetarian. (I have no issues with that, as long as she eats something with a little protien in it a day. We're still learning how to have a vegetarian/omnivore house - we'll get it.)

My other daughter is tiny. She's 7 years old and wears a size four clothing. And they're a bit big around the waist. She's lactose and gluten (wheat) intolerant. She's also buff. It's hard to tell, cause she's so skinny, but she's got some STRONG muscles. She also swims like a fish. Her size is a mix of genetics. She's short like me and skinny like K's sister. Truthfully if she continues to take after her aunt, she'll never have weight problems and it doesn't matter what she eats. Actually, when she eats badly (too much gluten and/or wheat) she loses weight, which freaks me out. She's already underweight. Under doctors orders she still drinks whole milk, cause the doctor worries about her lack of body fat.

My son is square. He doesn't have ANY fat on him, and the other day at the pool someone pointed to him (not realizing he was my son) and said 'wow, is that like a little kid six pack?' I've seen him hang from the monkey bars and do leg lifts while laughing. He thinks they're fun! He's the one with the sweet tooth.

I know obesity on kids is on the rise, but honestly, I dunno. I know that my freshman 15 became the freshman 25, then 40 as my lifestyle suburbanized. THAT's when it gets tough, when those who normally can eat whatever suddenly can't without gain.

Ok, a lot of the reason why obesity is on the rise is parents are more afraid than they used to be. It used to be kids would come home from school, grab a snack, and go out and play. Now days you find kids who never leave their house - their parents are afraid they'll be kidnapped/murdered/molested. You can schedule in exercise, but still kids aren't getting the exercise they used to get, because kids used to exercise EVERY DAY.

Mine is not meant to be upsetting or controversial either, just curious what link she sees there.

Love the pic, dove!

I'm assuming it's because ADHDers, as children, are often quite active (or hyper-active), hence the 'H' in the letters.