A serious discussion about BDSM and weight

[Recidiva]

I simply don't get all this. If everybody is nobody else's business, how are we even a society at all? Yes, everyone has their own reality but what that little personal world does is limit the objectivity they have about themselves. Regardless of whose business it is, western society is steadily getting fatter and it's bad for everyone. Obesity and eating disorders like anorexia and bulimia cost the UK and USA governments as much as things like smoking, drinking and drug abuse. Put all those preventable problems together and you'll find they cost more than more expensive things like cancer treatment by quite a long way. The additional health problems suffered by these people are often completely preventable. The psychological issues that they have are complex and take time and more cash to treat. None of the treatment available though, is any good at all unless people reach a place where they want to make changes, address their personal issues, become a healthy weight and hopefully a bit happier as a result.

Who is going to go into these awful projects and estates where people have already been let down by society and their own families and educate the people living on the breadline who buy processed crap almost exclusively? Whose business are they? If somebody puts on a T shirt yelling 'MYOB!' at the world, do we simply cease to care about them?

A little story.​

A cousin of mine's oldest kid is ADHD with the added issue of Asperger's. He failed to get on with his younger siblings and stepdad, he became violent and uncontrollable a lot of the time. He told everyone to fuck off time and time again. He was expelled from mainstream and then from special needs schools. He was given up on by social workers, child psychologists, the local police force and just about everyone who ran across him. His mother was asked more than once if she wanted to put him into government care so that she could have a break and concentrate on her other, normal kids. She was offered valium and other drugs to help her cope but she turned them down. Everyone saw this kid as a walking 'problem.'

By the time he was 18 he had a string of youth court convictions and was sent to an adult prison. He beat up 5 other lads and it was in all the papers; 'local hooligan batters 5 promising students in an unprovoked attack.' It transpired that these 5 lads had bullied him mercilessly when he was in mainstream school to the point where he had been held in front of a moving train and only escaped at the last moment. When they saw him, they started teasing him again and he flipped to such a degree that he had the strength and rage to take on 5 guys at once. (rage probably isn't the right word as I know Asperger's sufferers operate differently when it comes to emotions but it's the best word I can think of right now.)

When he came out, he was given a shitty little flat and a parole officer whose sole mission was to get him into employment - any employment. This kid had not 1 qualification and almost no employment experience of any kind. His mother had no idea what to do with him next. She tried to get him into the adult spectrum of psychiatric care and nothing was offered. He went to a group for young adults with Asperger's but hated it as he wasn't the kind of person who could cope with being sociable and neither were most of the others there. He signed up for some evening courses so he could get basic qualifications in maths and literacy. The state gave him a grant for a PC.

Bingo.

Within weeks he had books on computer programming and was completely computer literate. He switched courses and started learning IT but left within weeks as he outstripped everyone there. He started playing online games like Team Fortress 2 where people log on and form teams for an army game. He started making online friends. His skill at the game got him the first unconditional praise he'd had in years.

His mum went with him and told the parole dude all this. The guy started putting R up for entry level jobs in IT but R had no interest in entry level stuff and performed poorly at interviews. To the parole guy, R appeared to be arrogant and ungrateful, with no real interest in getting a job. They argued and R punched him.

The parole officer could have had him imprisoned again. He could have assigned him to someone else. He could have done any number of things but what he did was to arrange an interview for a software engineer's job, one that paid £30,000 ($60,000) a year and expected applicants to have a university degree and 3 years experience. He did this to teach R not to try running before he could walk.

R wasn't great at being interviewed but at some point, they sat him in front of a PC and asked him to do certain things. He impressed them so much that R was offered the job under a government funded mentoring programme. He started on £20,000 per year and the company was paid by the government some extra money to have a colleague train him. That was in 2000.

He has since developed software for use by GP and dentist surgeries almost single-handedly and he earns upwards of £50,000 per year. He is one of the most sophisticated software designers of his generation and has won awards for his work. He has been head-hunted by various companies but likes his job and won't leave. He is a brilliant and highly intelligent individual and his communication and emotional skills have developed tremendously because he can't convey his ideas and his work to others unless he can speak in layman's terms and engage his employers.

There were so very many times in his life where he could have become a statistic, a casualty of modern society and it's aversion to people who 'don't fit.' Nobody wanted responsibility for him - R didn't even want responsibility for himself.

He wasn't the parole officer's responsibility. It just took somebody to take an interest and point out that the boy-hate-world trip he was on was self destructive and would lead to disaster.

People are generally quite crap at taking true responsibility for themselves and everything they do. Netz might but she is a distinct minority. Society has to take constructive steps with people who are damaging themselves and obese people/anorexics/bulimics are doing just that. If we all take the stance that nobody else is our business, our modern, selfish society is fundamentally doomed. You can't spend your whole life in fear of offending anybody and people who are very over-weight need re-educating and help with identifying underlying causes that many of them just wouldn't seek themselves.

You can make all the excuses you want to about individual circumstances, budgets and so on but who is that really serving, them or your own conscience?

Ok, end rant. Let the flaming begin.

Velvetdarkness, the point to make here is that this is an issue to be addressed by professionals. The general populace thinking they have the answers for complicated medical and social and psychological issues is in fact, destructive bullshit.

It's screwed me up and sent me down the wrong path SO often in my own treatment.

"Common knowledge" is often common because it's cheap, wrong, and easy. And in many cases, the way people who are ill and need help are treated is the cheap, wrong and easy way of telling them "This is a simple thing to fix...all you have to do is...do it yourself. I'll judge and criticize and that's my contribution."

I've been given stupid advice regarding weight, stupid advice regarding my migraines, stupid advice regarding my son's disability. All from "well meaning" people who have never dealt with the issue themselves.

It's condescending, it's rude, and worse, it's cheap, stupid and wrong.

My son has Asperger's and I have migraines and I can say that my experience with telling people to "fuck off" has greatly benefited him.

Only by letting him be okay as he is, and not judged every moment about how he should be and how he needs to change, can he actually GET what love is, and reach for it, because it's not the scary judgmental brand with conditions.

 

[Netzach]

Velvetdarkness, the point to make here is that this is an issue to be addressed by professionals. The general populace thinking they have the answers for complicated medical and social and psychological issues is in fact, destructive bullshit.

It's screwed me up and sent me down the wrong path SO often in my own treatment.

"Common knowledge" is often common because it's cheap, wrong, and easy. And in many cases, the way people who are ill and need help are treated is the cheap, wrong and easy way of telling them "This is a simple thing to fix...all you have to do is...do it yourself. I'll judge and criticize and that's my contribution."

I've been given stupid advice regarding weight, stupid advice regarding my migraines, stupid advice regarding my son's disability. All from "well meaning" people who have never dealt with the issue themselves.

It's condescending, it's rude, and worse, it's cheap, stupid and wrong.

My son has Asperger's and I have migraines and I can say that my experience with telling people to "fuck off" has greatly benefited him.

Only by letting him be okay as he is, and not judged every moment about how he should be and how he needs to change, can he actually GET what love is, and reach for it, because it's not the scary judgmental brand with conditions.

You mean if I roll my eyes at the autistic kid I'm not helping the mentally ill? I thought I should get some kind of award.

 

[Netzach]

I simply don't get all this. If everybody is nobody else's business, how are we even a society at all? Yes, everyone has their own reality but what that little personal world does is limit the objectivity they have about themselves. Regardless of whose business it is, western society is steadily getting fatter and it's bad for everyone. Obesity and eating disorders like anorexia and bulimia cost the UK and USA governments as much as things like smoking, drinking and drug abuse. Put all those preventable problems together and you'll find they cost more than more expensive things like cancer treatment by quite a long way. The additional health problems suffered by these people are often completely preventable. The psychological issues that they have are complex and take time and more cash to treat. None of the treatment available though, is any good at all unless people reach a place where they want to make changes, address their personal issues, become a healthy weight and hopefully a bit happier as a result.

Who is going to go into these awful projects and estates where people have already been let down by society and their own families and educate the people living on the breadline who buy processed crap almost exclusively? Whose business are they? If somebody puts on a T shirt yelling 'MYOB!' at the world, do we simply cease to care about them?

A little story.​

A cousin of mine's oldest kid is ADHD with the added issue of Asperger's. He failed to get on with his younger siblings and stepdad, he became violent and uncontrollable a lot of the time. He told everyone to fuck off time and time again. He was expelled from mainstream and then from special needs schools. He was given up on by social workers, child psychologists, the local police force and just about everyone who ran across him. His mother was asked more than once if she wanted to put him into government care so that she could have a break and concentrate on her other, normal kids. She was offered valium and other drugs to help her cope but she turned them down. Everyone saw this kid as a walking 'problem.'

By the time he was 18 he had a string of youth court convictions and was sent to an adult prison. He beat up 5 other lads and it was in all the papers; 'local hooligan batters 5 promising students in an unprovoked attack.' It transpired that these 5 lads had bullied him mercilessly when he was in mainstream school to the point where he had been held in front of a moving train and only escaped at the last moment. When they saw him, they started teasing him again and he flipped to such a degree that he had the strength and rage to take on 5 guys at once. (rage probably isn't the right word as I know Asperger's sufferers operate differently when it comes to emotions but it's the best word I can think of right now.)

When he came out, he was given a shitty little flat and a parole officer whose sole mission was to get him into employment - any employment. This kid had not 1 qualification and almost no employment experience of any kind. His mother had no idea what to do with him next. She tried to get him into the adult spectrum of psychiatric care and nothing was offered. He went to a group for young adults with Asperger's but hated it as he wasn't the kind of person who could cope with being sociable and neither were most of the others there. He signed up for some evening courses so he could get basic qualifications in maths and literacy. The state gave him a grant for a PC.

Bingo.

Within weeks he had books on computer programming and was completely computer literate. He switched courses and started learning IT but left within weeks as he outstripped everyone there. He started playing online games like Team Fortress 2 where people log on and form teams for an army game. He started making online friends. His skill at the game got him the first unconditional praise he'd had in years.

His mum went with him and told the parole dude all this. The guy started putting R up for entry level jobs in IT but R had no interest in entry level stuff and performed poorly at interviews. To the parole guy, R appeared to be arrogant and ungrateful, with no real interest in getting a job. They argued and R punched him.

The parole officer could have had him imprisoned again. He could have assigned him to someone else. He could have done any number of things but what he did was to arrange an interview for a software engineer's job, one that paid £30,000 ($60,000) a year and expected applicants to have a university degree and 3 years experience. He did this to teach R not to try running before he could walk.

R wasn't great at being interviewed but at some point, they sat him in front of a PC and asked him to do certain things. He impressed them so much that R was offered the job under a government funded mentoring programme. He started on £20,000 per year and the company was paid by the government some extra money to have a colleague train him. That was in 2000.

He has since developed software for use by GP and dentist surgeries almost single-handedly and he earns upwards of £50,000 per year. He is one of the most sophisticated software designers of his generation and has won awards for his work. He has been head-hunted by various companies but likes his job and won't leave. He is a brilliant and highly intelligent individual and his communication and emotional skills have developed tremendously because he can't convey his ideas and his work to others unless he can speak in layman's terms and engage his employers.

There were so very many times in his life where he could have become a statistic, a casualty of modern society and it's aversion to people who 'don't fit.' Nobody wanted responsibility for him - R didn't even want responsibility for himself.

He wasn't the parole officer's responsibility. It just took somebody to take an interest and point out that the boy-hate-world trip he was on was self destructive and would lead to disaster.

People are generally quite crap at taking true responsibility for themselves and everything they do. Netz might but she is a distinct minority. Society has to take constructive steps with people who are damaging themselves and obese people/anorexics/bulimics are doing just that. If we all take the stance that nobody else is our business, our modern, selfish society is fundamentally doomed. You can't spend your whole life in fear of offending anybody and people who are very over-weight need re-educating and help with identifying underlying causes that many of them just wouldn't seek themselves.

You can make all the excuses you want to about individual circumstances, budgets and so on but who is that really serving, them or your own conscience?

Ok, end rant. Let the flaming begin.

Wait, where did this person get the break?

From the people who called him a problem (and he was?)

Or when he got the PC (nice they give PC's to CRIMINALS! the "you are a drain on my resources" crowd barks)

Or when the parole officer LISTENED beyond what was on the surface and hooked him up with a break?

The people screaming how wrong wrong wrong this person was contributed nothing to this happy outcome. Nothing.

Your own story completely disproves everything you're saying that the smug mocking "concern" does for anyone but the "concerned" - (this thread isn't news) and backs up what I was saying - you have to deal with people, their limitations, and their problems ON THEIR TERMS to solve them.

 

[Recidiva]

You mean if I roll my eyes at the autistic kid I'm not helping the mentally ill?

Everyone said my son just "needed more discipline."

Of course that means I was the one supposed to do it, that my compromise and understanding was destructive somehow, and they got irritated that he wouldn't communicate with them at all.

Of course, I had observed that "more discipline" made it worse. And that the compromise and understanding was the only way to reach him.

Worked so damned well I applied that to myself. Then I got better.

So I heartily recommend a steely-eyed, no-compromise "fuck off" when necessary. Resulted in me telling the school system that and home schooling my son for two years and then getting him into a decent program where he wasn't put at constant risk because he was misdiagnosed and nobody wanted to bother.

Also resulted in me telling certain doctors they were entirely wrong about what caused my headaches. It wasn't "stress" and it wasn't me being "anxious" and it wasn't all of the easy answers that fall under the heading of "Take two aspirin and I'll bill you in the morning."

It's about as constructive as me telling a smoker they can quit by just "not putting a cigarette in their mouth! Voila!"

If they punched me, I'd feel I deserved it.

And if one more person told me that I should try aspirin, or just relax, I've refrained from punching them enough, but a nice calm "fuck off" or terms to that effect is great therapy.

If you rolled your eyes at my son, he'd probably roll his eyes back. He'd think it was a fun game. Even if you were a little weird about it. But he's learned that weird's okay. He has an ongoing example in his mom.

 

[Netzach]

Everyone said my son just "needed more discipline."

Of course that means I was the one supposed to do it, that my compromise and understanding was destructive somehow, and they got irritated that he wouldn't communicate with them at all.

Of course, I had observed that "more discipline" made it worse. And that the compromise and understanding was the only way to reach him.

Worked so damned well I applied that to myself. Then I got better.

So I heartily recommend a steely-eyed, no-compromise "fuck off" when necessary. Resulted in me telling the school system that and home schooling my son for two years and then getting him into a decent program where he wasn't put at constant risk because he was misdiagnosed and nobody wanted to bother.

Also resulted in me telling certain doctors they were entirely wrong about what caused my headaches. It wasn't "stress" and it wasn't me being "anxious" and it wasn't all of the easy answers that fall under the heading of "Take two aspirin and I'll bill you in the morning."

It's about as constructive as me telling a smoker they can quit by just "not putting a cigarette in their mouth! Voila!"

If they punched me, I'd feel I deserved it.

And if one more person told me that I should try aspirin, or just relax, I've refrained from punching them enough, but a nice calm "fuck off" or terms to that effect is great therapy.

If you rolled your eyes at my son, he'd probably roll his eyes back. He'd think it was a fun game. Even if you were a little weird about it. But he's learned that weird's okay. He has an ongoing example in his mom.

You are exactly the kind of person we need more of.

 

[Recidiva]

You are exactly the kind of person we need more of.

Best. Compliment. Ever.

 

[nh23]

Oh, it's definitely ADHD, Combined Type. Perhaps my joints are what have kept me from being quite so active...although I remember playing and running around a lot as a LITTLE kid, my joints started going bad in my early teens, so I suppose I haven't been that active in a long time. Hyperactivity manifests itself in more than just gross motor activity though...I am extremely hyperactive in a fine motor sense! ADHD is my soapbox though, and don't mean to start anything...I have a lot of strong opinions about it so I am gonna tuck the soapbox back under the desk.

*nods* I'm sure they inherit it from me. I have a very short attention span, and my mind is all over the place. Master says it's having too many channels going at once..LOL. So when the kids or I are not paying attention he always says. "too many channels". I'm always swinging my legs, or moving around when I'm sitting. And mentally I'm extremely hyperactive. But physically nothing like my kids are. I imagine though that you are right and it's because they are so young. Kids their age have a lot of energy anyways..then add the hyperactivity.

I didn't feel like you were starting anything. It can be a touchy subject and I've had people really offend me. Such as the schools pretty much demanding I put my daughter on meds, and when I refused telling me she would probably grow up to commit suicide. You asked an honest question. No worries.

 

[graceanne]

[snip]

Ok, so tell me more about you. I want to help you by pointing out the things that you suck at. Are you a bad parent? Are you impatient? maybe your toenails are disgusting (a personal squick of mine). If you have the right to tell me and those like me that we're fat, then i say we get to return the favor. Is your hair brittle? Maybe your skin isn't as soft/clear as I think it should be. I have decided (just today) that people with acne, ALL OF THEM, are just lazy about their skin. It has nothing to do with heredity and whatever - what were you THINKING! After all acne is NASTY looking, it's a cost to our economy - in cures and stuff. The next time I see someone with a zit I'm going to lecture them on their lifestyle and choices. I'm just trying to HELP, after all.

Or better. From now on, anyone with freckles or a tan is gonna get it. I want to help them. How dare they expose themselves to the chances of skin cancer? What are they thinking of? If they really cared about us, and our economy, they wouldn't risk the health care system by *gasp* tanning. What in the world? I think it's disgusting, and that those people should have a STERN talking to. For their own good, of course.

 

[incubus'_sub]

interesting, graceanne, that you admit to a personal squick or 2 yourself. we all have them if we're being honest.

i know both you and netz have dreadful health problems which are real causes for your weight problems but i just don't believe that the vast majority of the overweight population is in the same category any more than i believe that the majority of screaming, badly behaved kids are autistic. these problems are exceptions and in the minority.

denial, excuses and lack of discipline remain, by far, the overall reason for the obesity epidemic.

take the story someone posted about her successful battle to lose 50lbs, destroyed in an instant by nasty skinny people in an ice cream shop. after all that hard work, she chose to treat herself with a sundae. why not a book or a new dress or a pair of earrings? ok, a little treat is just that, but it was a choice she made. she was stared at and ridiculed, not nice, but in her mind she knew she'd had a real personal victory, so...what did she than choose to do? blame the nasty skinny people and use them as an excuse to abandon all her hard work, resume overeating and regained all the lost weight. it was, of course, their fault not hers. it was a sad story and i genuinely feel for her pain but in the end it was the choices that she made, not the fault of someone or something else.

life is tough for everyone. skinny people have no less medical problems, mental problems, emotional problems and financial problems than the overweight. they just make different choices.

 

[Harmony_1985]

take the story someone posted about her successful battle to lose 50lbs, destroyed in an instant by nasty skinny people in an ice cream shop. after all that hard work, she chose to treat herself with a sundae. why not a book or a new dress or a pair of earrings? ok, a little treat is just that, but it was a choice she made. she was stared at and ridiculed, not nice, but in her mind she knew she'd had a real personal victory, so...what did she than choose to do? blame the nasty skinny people and use them as an excuse to abandon all her hard work, resume overeating and regained all the lost weight. it was, of course, their fault not hers. it was a sad story and i genuinely feel for her pain but in the end it was the choices that she made, not the fault of someone or something else.

So just because she's been overweight, she shouldn't be allowing herself to let go once in a while and treat herself to something she's denied herself to lose weight, but yet it's absolutely fine for those people to poke fun at her?

Once again I ask, what gives anyone the right to judge someone on seeing them once?

 

[incubus'_sub]

no, you just missed my point.

 

[Netzach]

Once again I ask, what gives anyone the right to judge someone on seeing them once?

No she really didn't miss your "point" at all.

incidentally, other than the first six months of prednisone, I attribute my fat ass to the fact that I fucking love food. My metabolism hasn't been perma-fucked like gracie. It's fine. I like bread, pasta, nuts, full-fat yogurt, butter.

Maybe someone should put a warrant out for me because it's an active struggle not to eat those things. It's a moral failing. It's a horrible choice.

Food is charged emotional addictive and eminently enjoyable, if you actually know how to cook. I like to cook. I like to eat almost as much as I like to feed other people. I like cake. I like half and half in my coffee.

let's go on and enumerate more reasons I don't deserve to breathe the same air as other people, which I did when I was...what...150 pounds or less? What's the master weight table for a worthless "fattie?"

 

[Netzach]

Here's a good one - I DO ALL THIS KNOWING THAT IT MAY CONTRIBUTE TO MY NEXT FLARE.

Would you like to know how I could be more preventative?

Tuna. Chicken. Cooked Carrots. Boiled chicken in stock with onion which I then remove.

For the rest of my life.

I don't intend to eat like I'm in full flare when I'm in remission. No sane person would.

Finding a happy medium is harder than I thought, and if it has ups and downs, I'm not going to hate myself for that.

 

[BeachGurl2]

I just feel like sharing that in my first week of WW I lost 2.1 lbs. Boo-yah! Got a long way to go, but a start's a start. I gotta get me one of them weight tickers for my signature.

Yea, Etoile!

 

[BeachGurl2]

I didn't feel like you were starting anything. It can be a touchy subject and I've had people really offend me. Such as the schools pretty much demanding I put my daughter on meds, and when I refused telling me she would probably grow up to commit suicide. You asked an honest question. No worries.

Having been a teacher and director of at-risk youth - those problem children regular schools don't like to serve - I am with you on this. It frustrates the hell out of me that most public school systems deal with problem children by trying to get the parents to medicate them, and then just write them off as problems instead of doing their job and actually educating them. My nephew is ADHD - he's almost 22 now. He's tall and thin, but athletically built - years and years of soccer. When my sister-in-law STOPPED medicating him, he actually got better - could focus better and wasn't quite as hyper. When I ran a summer program for K-8, I had a kid with the same problem. Know how we could get him calmed down? By giving him a Mountain Dew - sugar and caffeine. Hey, it worked. I'm all for what works.

 

[graceanne]

interesting, graceanne, that you admit to a personal squick or 2 yourself. we all have them if we're being honest.

Oh, they do. I can go into detail on mine, but the difference is that I dont' go up to them in public and say 'you really shouldn't wear sandles, they look gross' or 'there are things you can do for that'. I don't start threads called 'nasty toenails and bdsm' or refuse to be around people with nasty toe nails. And I wouldn't refuse to be in a relationship with someone with nasty nails. That's why it's a squick, and not a prejudice.

I understand that there's more to nasty toenails than bad hygiene or whatever. I also know that the person with bad toenails KNOWS they have gross toenails. There is no need for me to point it out to them. I currently have a friend of mine in my bed. She's got some tummy bug, and can't take care of ehrself. Beyond that she's got osteoarthritis and rheumatoid arthritis and high blood pressure and anxiety disorders and depression and brain damage. And her nails are nasty, but I don't think she gives a DAMN about her toenails. I'm sure not going to bother her about them.

 

[incubus'_sub]

i don't go up to people in public either, or in private for that matter, making comments.

i answered this thread, which was being dominated by defensive and attacking posts by self professed overweight people and allowed myself to be honest, in public, for the 1st time ever.

i'm quite old, nearly 54. when i was growing up obesity was so rare that good mothers told their children not to stare or comment at the fat person. nor did i ever pick on the occasional fat kid at school. the very fat WERE rare. now they are not. it's a fact that even the most defensive cannot dispute.

you can view it as a prejudice if you choose. i don't really care. personally i tend to view prejudice as a hatred caused by something which is totally beyond control, like skin colour. dislike of something or someone because of their choices or behaviour is totally human and normal. we all have it and we all do it.

the majority of posters here say they are overweight, from wanting to lose a few pounds to morbid obesity. a snapshot of the new world as it now is, or is there more obesity amongst bdsmers? it IS worthy of discussion but only if we are allowed to be honest about our views.

etoile, i'd missed your post. congratulations. i'm really glad ww is working for you.

 

[graceanne]

i don't go up to people in public either, or in private for that matter, making comments.

i answered this thread, which was being dominated by defensive and attacking posts by self professed overweight people and allowed myself to be honest, in public, for the 1st time ever.

i'm quite old, nearly 54. when i was growing up obesity was so rare that good mothers told their children not to stare or comment at the fat person. nor did i ever pick on the occasional fat kid at school. the very fat WERE rare. now they are not. it's a fact that even the most defensive cannot dispute.

you can view it as a prejudice if you choose. i don't really care. personally i tend to view prejudice as a hatred caused by something which is totally beyond control, like skin colour. dislike of something or someone because of their choices or behaviour is totally human and normal. we all have it and we all do it.

the majority of posters here say they are overweight, from wanting to lose a few pounds to morbid obesity. a snapshot of the new world as it now is, or is there more obesity amongst bdsmers? it IS worthy of discussion but only if we are allowed to be honest about our views.

etoile, i'd missed your post. congratulations. i'm really glad ww is working for you.

To tell the truth I haven't had any issues with your comments. What pisses me off is people who feel that they have the right to make comments in the name of 'caring'. Or who say that the issue is they're worried about the fat persons health, especially when they have no clue what's going on in that person's life. People who stare at me, and assume I'm a pig, when they have no idea that my metabolism has been (as netzach said) perma-fucked. Especially when those same people ignore other things on skinny people, like those who've been deep fried in the tanning bed.

 

[Homburg]

My best friend and I have an interesting relationship. He'll call me a fatass and I'll respond with something like "And? The only time you've been laid in the last three years was by pussy that I handed you." Like I said, it is an interesting relationship. That said, if someone else were to call me fat, I wouldn't be nasty in return. I would probably just say the first part, "And?" To me, being called fat, insofar as the word is concerned, is about as insulting as being called "bald" or "Biped!". Yep, I'm fat. And?

This is why I've taken no real offense at a lot of these posts. Most of the ones that were harsh were just giving an opinion, and not really pouring forth the vitriol. Yeah, some people were more harsh than others, and some people were more sensitive than others.

And?

If you are fat, you are fat. In my eyes, you should not be damaged by being called fat. If someone calls you a disgusting fat troll, that's a different story. Perjoratives sucks, and are worth taking offense over. But fat is just fat.

This is admittedly just my opinion, but it is based on the simplest of reasons. I am fat. I am a biped. Both are worthwhile descriptors. That's all. Allowing fat/overweight/whatever to be an insult is allowing others to rescript your universe.

Words only have as much power as you let them.

 

[BiBunny]

My best friend and I have an interesting relationship. He'll call me a fatass and I'll respond with something like "And? The only time you've been laid in the last three years was by pussy that I handed you." Like I said, it is an interesting relationship. That said, if someone else were to call me fat, I wouldn't be nasty in return. I would probably just say the first part, "And?" To me, being called fat, insofar as the word is concerned, is about as insulting as being called "bald" or "Biped!". Yep, I'm fat. And?

This is why I've taken no real offense at a lot of these posts. Most of the ones that were harsh were just giving an opinion, and not really pouring forth the vitriol. Yeah, some people were more harsh than others, and some people were more sensitive than others.

And?

If you are fat, you are fat. In my eyes, you should not be damaged by being called fat. If someone calls you a disgusting fat troll, that's a different story. Perjoratives sucks, and are worth taking offense over. But fat is just fat.

This is admittedly just my opinion, but it is based on the simplest of reasons. I am fat. I am a biped. Both are worthwhile descriptors. That's all. Allowing fat/overweight/whatever to be an insult is allowing others to rescript your universe.

Words only have as much power as you let them.

Men aren't judged as harshly by their appearances as women are, though, by both men AND other women. I think that has a lot to do with the reactions to some of the posts here.

I suppose fat folks SHOULD, in a perfect world, be secure enough not to let what people say about them bother them. But, on the flip side, maybe thin folks oughta be secure enough not to say anything in the first place.

 

[graceanne]

I don't care, everyone has SOMETHING that they don't want discussed by strangers. Some of us carry it around our middle so it's obvious. There's not a person alive who, if this 'thing' was pointed out by a stranger, would tell them to FUCK OFF!

 

[graceanne]

Men aren't judged as harshly by their appearances as women are, though, by both men AND other women. I think that has a lot to do with the reactions to some of the posts here.

I suppose fat folks SHOULD, in a perfect world, be secure enough not to let what people say about them bother them. But, on the flip side, maybe thin folks oughta be secure enough not to say anything in the first place.

Seriously. Men can walk around in sweats and with a scraggy beard and they're called 'rugged'. Women walk around in sweats and without a shave and they're called 'sloppy' if they're LUCKY.

 

[BeachGurl2]

I think it's interesting how most people hear the parts they want to hear and ignore the rest of someone's message, especially when it's such a touchy subject. Basically, the view of me from this thread is that I am prejudiced against anyone who is overweight, I refuse to even consider dating anyone who is overweight, and I have some kind of unhealthy obsession with other people's weight. I'm not going to waste time disputing any of these things, I have pretty much already posted things that directly contradict each of those things. But like I said, people choose what to hear and believe. It's human nature.

I also think that one of the things wrong in the US is the fact that we can't talk about things that are upsetting to people. We talk about tolerance and inclusion in the lifestyle, everyone having a right to his or her own kink, and we talk about how open minded we are as a group. But I've found that this is only true as long as we aren't talking about something that offends someone else. We have threads about bestiality, severe public humiliation, and even incest, but we can't talk about the trend of obesity in this country (and others) because it's offensive. The double standard of that just boggles the mind. I've seen a couple of posts here that are personal attacks on thin people and besides a couple of posts quickly commenting on that, they are largely ignored, but my questions and comments, none of which have been personally made about anyone, pretty much just some observations, have led people to the assumptions I mentioned above.

I've never said anywhere in this post that I think overweight people should be excluded from performing in public. I've never said that I think they are inferior or that they have no right to anything. I've never even said that they shouldn't eat what they want. But the reaction has been as if I did. I've seen people of all sizes in various stages of undress performing at the dungeon here in Phoenix. I've thought some of the scenes were pretty hot. Others didn't do anything for me. I've never thought, 'Oh shit, look at the size of that girl.' Most of the time, I was thinking, 'Damn, I want to try that.' I may not want to try it with an obese partner - for a variety of reasons. But I don't believe that makes me prejudiced against people who are overweight. I like what I like. As Wenchie said earlier, if my personal preferences bother people, oh well. But my personal preferences don't make me prejudiced against the opposite of my personal preferences.

Because early on in this thread I said things in a not-so-well-thought-out way, certain assumptions were made about me. Even with further clarification of my thoughts and my points, people clung to those original assumptions. Again, human nature, especially when the topic is what it is. The bottom line for me on the issue is probably a complicated one and can't easily be stated. The original purpose for this thread has been lost. I think what I originally wanted was to see if others noticed what I consider to be a disturbing trend in the US, and to see if people thought the trend might be similar or higher in the lifestyle. I also wanted to talk about the whys of that, because in Phoenix at least, while I've noticed the trend in general among the population, I believe it to be higher in BDSM groups. I wonder why that might be. That's really what my original thoughts were. I made a really long original post because I knew the topic would be touchy for some and I expected some flames. In an effort to give a little information about where I was coming from with it all, I worded things badly and rambled a bit too much. But I tend to do that in general. Whatever Netz can say really well in one sentence, I'll be sure to turn into 3 paragraphs with footnotes that no one will get anyway. And because of that, the original point of the thread was lost to all but a few who pretty much stuck to the original questions I posted.

As I said in the beginning, my intent was never to insult anyone or make anyone feel they needed to be on the defensive. While I no longer really struggle with my weight (I've come to terms with my eating disorder and have found healthy strategies that work for me), I have been there and done that, but no longer have the T-shirt cause I gave them all to Goodwill. If people want to continue posting, great, I'm always up for a good discussion. If not, no worries. I think the original point was lost long ago, and frankly, I'm tired of feeling like I have to continually repeat myself just to prove to a bunch of people who really don't know me that they've gotten the wrong idea because I worded something badly. I think that last is the most frustrating part of this whole thread for me. Rather than really discuss the topic I was interested in, I feel like I've spent a lot of time defending my position and my beliefs. I guess I expected that to a degree, but hoped it wouldn't be such a big part of things. But again, I think part of me expected it.

The topic is one that still interests me. If someone doesn't feel comfortable posting but wants to PM me, I'm always open to that. In fact, a few people have - some have posted here, some have not. And if people keep posting, I'll keep reading and probably posting, too. I just felt that I needed to get that off my chest. I don't like hurting people's feelings. No matter the intent. And it's obvious that my curiosity and thoughts have done just that. Part of me feels like I should apologize for that. But another part of me is a little angry at that because I feel like it's not about me, but is about the topic and no matter what had been said, the reaction would have been the same. Because of the topic, not because of something poorly said by me. So I want to apologize, but I feel a little miffed about that. Which is silly. Since other people here feel pretty angry because they think I've insulted them and called them names - even though I haven't. Oh, they've been insulted, but not because I specifically insulted them. They were insulted by the topic. I was just the stupid person who posted it.

 

[Homburg]

Men aren't judged as harshly by their appearances as women are, though, by both men AND other women. I think that has a lot to do with the reactions to some of the posts here.

I suppose fat folks SHOULD, in a perfect world, be secure enough not to let what people say about them bother them. But, on the flip side, maybe thin folks oughta be secure enough not to say anything in the first place.

That's kind of my point. Be secure in yourself. What other people think only has merit if you respect them. Do you respect the woman walking by that rolled her eyes because you have commited the cardinal sin of being fat and eating ice cream on a hot day? You shouldn't.

And to the skinny people nbeing all sorts of judgemental, schadenfrude is so bad that it needs a German word to describe. Do you really want to be involved in something like that?

----

Seriously. Men can walk around in sweats and with a scraggy beard and they're called 'rugged'. Women walk around in sweats and without a shave and they're called 'sloppy' if they're LUCKY.

I can think of more than a few women that I've seen in sweats, before a shower, and in need of a shave, and thought they looked all kinds of good.

And "rugged" is about the best I can personally hope for, so your comment gives me hope (I look like shit in sweats though)

And a lot of it is how you carry yourself. There's a lady that is in our munch group that is a good example of this. She's an FDom, probably in her 60's, and overweight. Yet she carries herself so well that you just can't help but notice her, and be appreciative of how she presents herself. And she has a wicked sense of humour, an evil twinkle in her eye, and a deviously creative mind. I'm pretty sure that there's not an msub in 60 miles that wouldn't eat a pound of broken glass to be worked over by her, and she catches the eye of vanilla men that don't know that she's dominant. Presentation works.

 

[Netzach]

Seriously. Men can walk around in sweats and with a scraggy beard and they're called 'rugged'. Women walk around in sweats and without a shave and they're called 'sloppy' if they're LUCKY.

Women can walk around dressed to the nines and normal sized and they're called SOMETHING unflattering. It's a zero-sum game unless you're Paltrow and then people probably call you a bitch.

I don't play.

I'm perfectly happy to self-identify as fat, or plush medium, depending on what that's relative to. What I won't do, is allow anyone to then intimate that this makes me ugly, undesireable, less than, or "could be if only."

I don't have to listen to that shit and I have every right to call it.