All NRA and GOA members need to acknowledge the following facts . . .

[BotanyBoy]

You MIGHT can kill a human with a deer rifle, I'm not saying you can't, but it's not super easy to kill a deer with a deer rifle

Then how come all the most infamous anti-personnel sniper rifles are based on "deer rifle" platforms?

Most notably the Remington 700??

The military disagrees, that's why snipers and designated marksmen cary deer rifles.

They are some of the best one hitter quitter rifles out there.

 

[Kirkrapine]

They are less free than we are. Few countries enjoy the freedoms we do. We're the Wild West for the rest of the world. People come here for the same reasons we went west. Money and freedom. Both have a few gunfights involved.

You must know the Wild West was a media creation from the beginning. Apart from the Indian Wars, which the Army alone handled, the Old West was actually very peaceful. A cowboy was much more likely to die of flu or be dragged to death by his own horse than to die in a gunfight. Really, the Old West was all about resource extraction -- an economic model that has little significance now, apart from petroleum, and even that is doomed.

 

[CandiCame]

Then how come all the most infamous anti-personnel sniper rifles are based on "deer rifle" platforms?

Most notably the Remington 700??

The military disagrees, that's why snipers and designated marksmen cary deer rifles.

They are some of the best one hitter quitter rifles out there.

Yeah, they can do that. I can't. The first part of his assertion was that it'd be easy to do- that you wouldn't need military training. That you wouldn't need to be a sniper. There's a reason those are sniper issued. I've never been in the military but I'm pretty sure that infantry don't rely super heavily on sniper rifles, because they take a lot of training to be good with.

One of my cousins is actually a sniper- and to be good with those things you have to be steady as FUCK. Like... there's actually a problem with vets who were snipers coming home addicted to drugs meant to keep you awake and steady, which is what happened to him. And then the VA was privatized so now it's really goddamn hard to get into rehab. There was a whole big thing about it all over the news- when I mentioned in that McConnel thread that he wouldn't answer his phone, this is actually what I was calling about- when they were privatizing the VA it really fucked him up. But, the way our military treats its veterans isn't the topic of this thread- just know that those aren't easy weapons to use and it's not an easy job to do. It's not like going hunting for the weekend.

 

[Kirkrapine]

Then how come all the most infamous anti-personnel sniper rifles are based on "deer rifle" platforms?

Most notably the Remington 700??

The military disagrees, that's why snipers and designated marksmen cary deer rifles.

They are some of the best one hitter quitter rifles out there.

How is any of that relevant to gun control in the United States? We certainly don't want people walking around with "deer rifles" so defined.

 

[CandiCame]

How is any of that relevant to gun control in the United States? We certainly don't want people walking around with "deer rifles" so defined.

I want you to pick one of those up, with no training, and try to shoot it. I want to know if you hit anything, or if you throw your shoulder out. No one help him.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Yeah, they can do that. I can't.

That doesn't mean the tool is ineffective.

The first part of his assertion was that it'd be easy to do- that you wouldn't need military training.

You don't. Millions of Americans learn how to and successfully operate 30 cal semi auto and bolt action rifles every year.

No sniper school needed to operate the deer rifle every boy scout looks forward to peeling some nuggets off with at summer camp.

That you wouldn't need to be a sniper.

To kill someone with a deer rifle? I 100% assure you, you do not need to be a sniper to use a rifle effectively.

There's a reason those are sniper issued.

Durability, range and accuracy.

I've never been in the military but I'm pretty sure that infantry don't rely super heavily on sniper rifles, because they take a lot of training to be good with.

I have and the infantry does have snipers and designated marksmen with "deer rifles" in pretty much every company sized element if not platoon or squad level.

And no they don't....DM class is only 11 days and sniper school, most of which has nothing to do with shooting or operating the rifle, is only 7 weeks.

 

[Kirkrapine]

Like... there's actually a problem with vets who were snipers coming home addicted to drugs meant to keep you awake and steady, which is what happened to him.

You can't be serious -- they actually prescribe those?!

 

[BotanyBoy]

How is any of that relevant to gun control in the United States?

It's not.

I'm just saying a deer rifle is an awesome light weight, durable, highly effective anti-personnel weapon.

We certainly don't want people walking around with "deer rifles" so defined.

Why not?

What's wrong with rifles?

Millions do it every hunting season.

 

[BotanyBoy]

You can't be serious -- they actually prescribe those?!

And then they give you sleeping pills when you come off mission, before sending you out all amped up on amphetamines again!!!

 

[CandiCame]

You can't be serious -- they actually prescribe those?!

Dude, google Diazepam.

I really, really don't want to make this thread into a whole thing about how the US treats its veterans, but yes. They get you addicted to drugs and now they don't really pay for your rehab. They KIND OF do, but they fucked up the way Vet's healthcare works and it personally screwed over a lot of people I know. Vets and military groups were protesting and everything. It was this huge thing. Also google "Privatization of the VA" and "Vetern's Protest".

My senator famously turned off the phones at his office, because he was getting so many calls and he didn't want to deal with it. He choose to vote against the vet's wishes. So like... not cool.

 

[BotanyBoy]

*double take*

And then the VA was privatized

When did that happen?

 

[CandiCame]

And then they give you sleeping pills when you come off mission, before sending you out all amped up on amphetamines again!!!

They feel fantastic. Until they don't.

 

[CandiCame]

*double take*



When did that happen?

Not that long ago, we're actually still in transition. They keep promising that once the transition is over it won't be that bad, and like I said, I was never in the military- I thought about it and realized I'd just flat out die. So it's not my area of expertise- but when a bunch of people I care about ask me to make a phone call, I make it. You can probably google it. A bunch of people are pretty pissed.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Dude, google Diazepam.

Adderall.....

Also google "Privatization of the VA"

Yea....just checked with the VA, it's bullshit.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Not that long ago, we're actually still in transition. They keep promising that once the transition is over it won't be that bad, and like I said, I was never in the military- I thought about it and realized I'd just flat out die. So it's not my area of expertise- but when a bunch of people I care about ask me to make a phone call, I make it. You can probably google it. A bunch of people are pretty pissed.

Transition to what?

What corporation is taking over the VA?

 

[CandiCame]

Adderall.....



Yea....just checked with the VA, it's bullshit.

Oh, yeah, it's bullshit.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/president-donald-j-trump-signs-s-2372-law/

Vets have no reason to be worried

https://healthpayerintelligence.com/news/president-trump-signs-bill-to-expand-privatization-of-va-healthcare

It's not a real thing

https://www.militarytimes.com/veterans/2018/04/11/vets-groups-and-lawmakers-say-theyre-against-it-but-what-does-privatization-of-veterans-affairs-really-mean/

That has been all over the news

https://federalnewsnetwork.com/veterans-affairs-agency-in-focus/2018/03/va-privatization-is-a-very-real-issue-right-now-american-legion-says/

That would affect real people

https://www.newsweek.com/koch-brothers-backed-group-could-determine-future-va-870693

It's just something someone would make up to post on a message board

https://www.salon.com/2018/03/29/if-the-va-is-privatized-heres-how-veterans-will-suffer/

It's not at all real

http://www.modernhealthcare.com/article/20180331/NEWS/180339994


Christ, dude.

 

[Kirkrapine]

Why not?

What's wrong with rifles?

Millions do it every hunting season.

That's what's wrong with it!

Then how come all the most infamous anti-personnel sniper rifles are based on "deer rifle" platforms?

Most notably the Remington 700??

The military disagrees, that's why snipers and designated marksmen cary deer rifles.

They are some of the best one hitter quitter rifles out there.

We certainly don't want any of that in a civil society!

 

[CandiCame]

Transition to what?

What corporation is taking over the VA?

In this area specifically, probably ARH from what we've been hearing.

Having said that, I do have you on iggy, so I suspect that in the past you did something real fucked up and might be a troll who is goading me, and it's 2am so I'm not gonna keep responding to this. We're derailing the thread. I'm not gonna 'click to expand' anymore, so if I don't reply, that's why.

 

[CandiCame]

That's what's wrong with it!



We certainly don't want any of that in a civil society!

Do you honestly have any idea how much more ethical it is to hunt than it is to factory farm? What moral ground could you possibly have here? Do you want your food to have led a natural life, or do you want something that was tortured?

Do you know in the US that livestock is exempt from Animal cruelty laws? Do you know what the alternative is? Do you know how they treat their human workers?

 

[Kirkrapine]

Do you honestly have any idea how much more ethical it is to hunt than it is to factory farm?

Not really. Both involve putting living creatures in fear. At least hunted animals get to live wild and free lives until they're shot, while factory-farmed animals have to live in narrow cages.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Oh, yeah, it's bullshit.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/president-donald-j-trump-signs-s-2372-law/

Christ, dude.

And the VA was right, it's not privatization.

In this area specifically, probably ARH from what we've been hearing.

They are taking over the VA or the VA is letting them handle shit because there isn't a VA hospital/clinic that can do it relatively close by?

Having said that, I do have you on iggy, so I suspect that in the past you did something real fucked up and might be a troll who is goading me, and it's 2am so I'm not gonna keep responding to this. We're derailing the thread. I'm not gonna 'click to expand' anymore, so if I don't reply, that's why.

Yea I probably asked you for straight shit instead of hysterical appeals to emotion, that gets you fucking bent like no other.

 

[CandiCame]

Not really. Both involve putting living creatures in fear. At least hunted animals get to live wild and free lives until they're shot, while factory-farmed animals have to live in narrow cages.

If you're good at hunting there's no fear involved- it's a clean shot. Deer's alive, deer feels no pain, deer's dead. If you miss your first shot with a semi, you pull the trigger again before it has a chance to react. If you're a bad hunter, or if you're using more archaic weapons like bows, there's a greater chance of suffering. That's literally the difference. That and we don't... shoot animals to death on farms... they're normally electrocuted.

I don't even really see veganism as an ethical alternative- there's a LOT that vegans have to answer for. I know what they're going for, but it's an elitist mindset that most people can't afford, it still harms humans and animals (oh how those vegans forget that fluffy little bunnies are dying slow, agonizing deaths because they tried to get into the soybean crop and got poisoned to death or snared on traps).

There are two meat sources that I would call 'ethical'- local, homegrown meat- which I do also use, but my critters simply won't feed all of us now that my gramps has taken a turn for the worse and I have to spend so much time on his care, and because Bitesize has like 5 of them that she named as doodles and is now real gung-ho about not eating for some goddamn reason- and ethical hunting that we kind of HAVE to do because we fucked over the wolves and now there aren't enough predators to keep the deer population in check and we can either kill them quick and relatively painlessly- with a gun, a bow won't do that- or we can let them starve to death.

Like... dude look at my other posts and think about who this is coming from. Not all gun owners are "gun nuts" who want "collections" so that they can become mass shooters. There are real, legitimate reasons to own a gun, and there are real, legitimate reasons to choose weapons that it doesn't take time to shoot twice with. There are real, legitimate reasons to own different guns that make it more effective to kill different types of game so that they don't have to suffer.

This is part of the problem I have with our "you have to be one or the other" system. I'm a liberal- pretty firmly. But there's no reason for them to, say, pass an act that restricts gun ownership among people with neurodivergent disorders. Us crazies are WAY more likely to be the victim of violent crime than the perpetrators. I've owned guns since I was three, and never shot anyone- not on purpose, not on accident. And there's no reason for people to think that responsible gun ownership isn't a thing.

Here's the thing. We have the laws in place that we need to not have the amount of gun violence we do. We aren't actively acting on those laws. Almost every mass shooting in the US could have been avoided if our terroristic threatening laws had been followed through with. If cops would take these people seriously when they post facebook messages, or tell roommates, or write letters to schools instead of just NOT. There are very few cases where this shit couldn't be avoided. Yes, it would make a dent if we decided to restrict ownership, probably. We've seen it in other countries.

But other countries aren't the US. We're a culture that is socialized a specific way- a big part of the reason we see the same demographic for the majority of these crimes is because there's an underlying social issue causing it. When mass shooters are interviewed, they speak about their reasons, and it's never, "I loved guns". There are underlying issues with our society that have to do with nationalism, homophobia, toxic masculinity, racism, and sexism that need to be addressed. I think legislation to tighten gun control laws would be a band-aid. We have to address the underlying issues, just like we need to do with ethical farming.

 

[BotanyBoy]

That's what's wrong with it!

What is?

We certainly don't want any of that in a civil society!

Why not?

 

[waratah]

. . . before they open their mouths again:


2. No one but a collector really needs more than one or two firearms.
.

What facts support this assumption?

 

[Kirkrapine]

Why not?

We don't want civilians carrying military rifles! Those are designed for war!