Anyone out there who is into BDSM but your partner/spouse is NOT?

[catalina_francisco]

Well thank you Pure again, you compare me to a saint, I must be headed to heaven.

About the definition, like I said in the post it comes out of Webster’s dictionary, although not as good as Oxfords dictionary, still a very good one. Now I am sure you can look up ‘unfaithful’ yourself. I wish you would spend the same time on reading as you would on trying to invent insults, and that for someone I compared to a librarian.

About the Spanish inquisition I can only quote Monty Python.

[JARRING CHORD]
[The door flies open and Cardinal Ximinez of Spain [Palin] enters, flanked by two junior cardinals. Cardinal Biggles [Jones] has goggles pushed over his forehead. Cardinal Fang [Gilliam] is just Cardinal Fang]

Ximinez: NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again.
[The Inquisition exits]

This is a very lively thread, I am having great fun.
Francisco.

 

[Netzach]

I'm confused as to how I could like the scene but be completely uninterested in who I do it with, still. The "respect for SM and not giving a shit about the client" thing. The scene is as good as the people in it, paid top, paying bottom or otherwise, no?

I just have the supply and demand working in my favor and I am good at what I do. There is no reason I should not be able to sell my services, nor is there a reason I can't pick and choose who I want for my repeat customers--- who are not lovers and intimate friends but are much more than a walking dollar sign.

I don't see why you took such umbrage at my interepretation of the phrase "arrogant prick." It's not insulting to me, maybe it is to you, for this I take no responsibility.

 

[catalina_francisco]

My dear child,

Confusion is good for the soul or is that confession; I am still quite new at this saint business.

I do not see any dilemma, when you are being paid for it, IMHO opinion your main motivation is money to do the scene with the person you are doing it with when you are being paid for it.

Correct me if I am wrong but if I have any idea of what Pro Domme charges for a semi decent length session are, there are not many who can afford you, especially a Pro Domme that is young and good looking. Of course I could be wrong and you might be quite affordable, cheap even, to give yourself the opportunity in choosing your clientele which could be a very good strategy. If the reverse is the case the market is actually not working to your advantage like it is when you are not charging for your services, I do not think there will be many carpenters, garbage men or students who can afford a scene with you, at least according to Pure there are not many righteous Dom’s who can afford it.

And I have taken no offence at you calling me an arrogant prick, I find it quite refreshing the honesty and openness. It is a sign of maturity that you can so honestly put forward your opinion of another. In any case now that I know the definition that is being used in New York for arrogant prick I will be not afraid in using it on my next visit in New York I will insult anyone with it.

Francisco.

 

[A Desert Rose]

And I have taken no offence at you calling me an arrogant prick, I find it quite refreshing the honesty and openness. It is a sign of maturity that you can so honestly put forward your opinion of another. In any case now that I know the definition that is being used in New York for arrogant prick I will be not afraid in using it on my next visit in New York I will insult anyone with it.

Francisco.

Let's please get clear on this....

Which do you prefer? Saint Franciso or Arrogant Prick?

;-)
Someday I will not have to add this goofy-assed smile because people will understand my humor, or so I can hope.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Well since to call yourself a saint you have to be an arrogant prick, I would prefer Saint Francisco.

 

[Netzach]

Ok. I will try out "whore" on the nice Dutch grandmothers I encounter while slumming at the Rjiksmuseum. They will be sure to wave and smile. Perhaps the young Australian gentlemen I met in Paris would have befriended me had I paid them the compliment.

Hey, whores!

We should adopt this as a standard english "whassup."

A wide cross section of humanity has found it worth sticking some money in a sock so I could cane them, one would be surprised. Likewise, the notion that I'm getting monstrously wealthy would be mistaken. I enjoy the diversity of bottoms and the differences between them enough to jump into the trenches and see what makes people tick.

I care about the scene and I'd rather see people having good if somewhat detached first times, maybe learning some safety, rather than getting hurt by random people in scary ways.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I think that is an excellent idea. We are used in Amsterdam to strange American tourist.

Just to be correct though, I never said that a pro Domme was a whore, I just made a motivational comparison.

But I am happy to see that your motivation in charging money is completely altruistic, if you keep on going like this you might be able to reach saintly hood yourself.

Francisco.

 

[Netzach]

Comlpete altruism, ok, THOSE are fighting words.

*shudders*

 

[catalina_francisco]

What you want to fight, ok let me get my boxing gloves.

S F.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Some links for the American tourists about Amsterdam

http://www.pic-amsterdam.com/
http://www.trincoll.edu/zines/tj/tj2.15.96/articles/sex.html
http://goeurope.about.com/library/weekly/uc_amsterdam_d.htm

Francisco

 

[redelicious]

Wow, and I thought I hijacked the thread.

 

[James G 5]

Wow, and I thought I hijacked the thread.

Yeah, and people bitch about my jokes & flirting

 

[Pure]

Hi Francisco,

I've put some of the relevant quotes in the text, and those who want the entire ones, can read the thread.

Summary: If I may put my point into a sentence, you've fallen into a grossly inconsistent position is saying you've no moral objection to whores' and pro dommes' doings, while at the same time condemning 'parties to adultery' (e.g., the 'other man' or 'other woman'). For in the latter case, your objection focussed on being a party to a deception and part of a cause of someone else's hurt.
Yet the same is true of prostitutes and pro dommes.
------

I think it's clear that initially, the idea of the whore 'in it for the money' was not entirely to your liking. They don't in your words, give a shit about the client,

when they are being paid they just do not give a shit with whom they are doing it,

I think it's safe to say, as and extension of your position that they do not greatly care about his other commitments and his wife's feelings (though they protect her health).

So I think N had a correct impression of your initial position:

[Speaking as if for Francisco]

Of course I [N]could never be a safe and reputable Dominant because I am assisting people in going outside a marriage for a scene and maintaining discretion. I am probably not even trustworthy as a Top, no matter how much skill I accrue, no matter how much respect I have for the client and his kink. I am facilitating secrecy and therefore my ethics suck.

She rightly discerned your position that there is a moral fault in facilitating secrecy(deception), and being party to someone else's 'sneaking around', to use another phrase from this thread.

Now we come to your today's or later
position, as an enlightened Amsterdamer, the witty, tolerant Francisco usually in evidence when he's not an arrogant prick :

A whore is just someone who sells sex; it is a legal profession where I live (and Australia also) and we do not attach childish stigmas to it. I made a motivation comparison between having sex for money and having a BDSM scene for money.

What's going on here.??

Francisco--and anyone else reading-- remember our original dispute that caused you to make strong criticisms and Johnny M to rupture an artery in his brain? I said, intending this to apply to doms,

If I (as uncommitted) encounter a woman who wants to 'cheat' (she's decided), and her hubby isn't any kind of friend, then I might well be happy to fuck her. Her 'betrayal' of hubby is strictly between her and him.

This is the statement, folks, that originally caused all the moral accusations of 'don't give a fuck', being at the level of animal, slimy, and whatever. As Mayberry put it, I was showing depraved indifference to 1) the deception she was doing (though I didn't help in it), and 2) the hurt that she would likely cause to him. This made me sleazy, uncaring so-and-so, animal, genitally driven, and so on.

Yet this is essentially the content of your (F's) original statements about N's 'motivations' as pro domme or whore. Along with "just for the money" goes--as she says-- being a party to deception and not dealing with possible hurt to the man's wife (even though he's not fucked, he's erotically beaten, and that may disturb her a lot.) The motive is money, but the effects in terms of other people are the same as my genitally driven mania.

So, despite all this Amsterdamer hospitality (when can I come?),

I have no moral hang-ups with Pro domes, quite the contrary, I would say it is a very realistic view.

your analysis must lead to the moral condemnation of the pro domme or whore. (Even if you want the cops NOT to bother her.)

So you cannot *genuinely* agree with Netzach that whores are really like lawyers.

Your basic impulse, as a near recognized saint is to hold a person as his/her brother's keeper.

You've repudiated my and Netzach's willingness to be indifferent to possible (non-criminal) harms to certain strangers that we dont directly or indirectly cause, but that are caused by those with whom we deal.

This sensitive--dare I say, 'Franciscan'-- concern for all humanity not only gives splendor to your 'domhood', but elevates your chances of becoming a saint. These are excellent, since three more were just made yesterday, bringing the present Pope's total 'appointments' to nearly 500--- a greater total than for the last 400 years, iirc.

I must say that Mayberry, despite his wrath, his apoplectic rage, is more consistent, for it's he who said,

[Johnny M said, possibly referring to Netzach as well,]

Oh, and you [P] don't get cut any slack because you facillitate deception professionally, either...

So I hope you figure out this saintly dilemma; I of course, admire the Christlike beneficence of your latest postings on magdalenes; Christ loved them, and your imitatio does well to reflect this; they have an honorable history in your church. I'm merely pointing to a philosophical difficulty, in your saintly stance!



J.

 

[Lady Emerald]

Wow----such passionate opinions. perhaps some of us are getting a bit lengthy!!!

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Wow----such passionate opinions. perhaps some of us are getting a bit lengthy!!!

Hey, while they fight, why don't you give me some backround, and I'll give you some saintly advice...

 

[catalina_francisco]

Hey, while they fight, why don't you give me some backround, and I'll give you some saintly advice...

Hey, now get your sinful feet off the blessed pedestal of Saintly Francisco....sheesh, you beg forgiveness for asking him to move for just a moment so you can ensure His pedestal is polished as is His right, and some interloper tries to muscle their way in while your back is turned getting your sanctified polishing cloth from your Holy bag of cleaning products!!!!! It is obvious some people will stoop to anything to get another in trouble and expelled.

C

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Hey, now get your sinful feet off the blessed pedestal of Saintly Francisco....sheesh, you beg forgiveness for asking him to move for just a moment so you can ensure His pedestal is polished as is His right, and some interloper tries to muscle their way in while your back is turned getting your sanctified polishing cloth from your Holy bag of cleaning products!!!!! It is obvious some people will stoop to anything to get another in trouble and expelled.

C

Back away, before someone's halo gets crushed!

 

[catalina_francisco]

My Dearest Child,

It is not up to me to condemn or judge any one, for was it not Jesus Christ himself who said.
“He that is without sin among you; let him first cast a stone at Her"

Amen and Hallelujah.

I am like you often have said yourself only asking questions and communicating. It is a very valid point to show where possible conflicts of interest arise. It is in the interest of lesser altruistic Pro Domme’s who are more interesting in money then our Sister Netzach to defend the position of the cheater. They consist out of a major part of the income of the earlier mentioned Pro Domme’s. In fact they have in this the same position as a sex worker, a prostitute and whore (which ever term is to you liking).

Now although I am sure you must have extensive knowledge of the beautiful and colourful language that English is, you also have a knack for misquoting people. Let me see in the sentence where I say that Pro Domme’s do not give a shit about their customers. It is very clear in the sentence that they do not give a shit with whom they are doing it when they are being paid for it. I think thou have to complain to your teachers and maybe ask them for a course in comprehensive reading English.

It is indeed an extension of my quote to say that they are not greatly concerned about their client’s family or significant other, although I have not said that it is a valid remark to make. It comes with the job as it were which is why I have pointed out that Pro Domme opinions concerning cheating are very likely to be coloured by financial motives.

Originally posted by Pure
So you cannot *genuinely* agree with Netzach that whores are really like lawyers.

Originally posted by Netzach
I find it laughable and insulting to compare a non-sexual prodomme to a whore right off the bat, rather than a dentist or a therapist and actress or a lawyer, all of whom provide a service for a fee and don't fuck anyone either.

I actually think it is a very valid point to compare whore’s with lawyers, however I have not seen Netzach make that quote in affect she has made the opposite point. I really think you have to go that earlier mentioned course in comprehensive reading Pure. About Lawyers and whores well IMHO the whores have a much more honourable profession then lawyers, they fuck their clients and not fuck them over.

For the rest everyone should take this thread with a smile and a laugh and enjoy a good discussion. In the end the only thing we are doing is not trowing stones at each other but words. And I am sure we are all good little saintly adults who can take a good discussion without being to overly upset by it. So after this message delivered to you by the SFN (Saint Francisco Netcasting) I am sure that everyone is ready for a well deserved refreshing Pepsi X Energy cola (is my sponsor in my quest for saintly hood).

Saint Francisco.

 

[Pure]

Hi E,
//getting a bit lengthy!!!//

Yeah, I know. You know the old joke "I'm writing you a long letter because I don['t have time to write you a short one."

I'll try in a few sentences. Our saint Francisco has a dilemma, that our erstwhile thundering near-saint does not. Johnny is ready to judge the prostitute, the pro domme and the 'third party' in adultery: all are part of deceptive practices, which are generally just wrong, immoral, and callous. People get hurt while the first two line their pockets, and the last gets his dick waxed.

If you see a 'pro dom', as an experiment, while married, Johnny's gonna be pretty upset with both you and the 'pro dom'. Just as if you sneaked a lover.

Our saint, Francisco, in his beatific moments, which are becoming increasing frequent, wants to have it both ways: he claims to have *no problems with the prostitute ("whore") or non-fucking pro domme who is pursuing a legitimate profession.

He apparently doesn't care (I think) if you, a wife, see a pro dom, even if on the sly. (At least that's suggested in some postings.)

But your actual adultery with a red blooded, amoral lover, would upset him, showing that you're not an honorable person, but a cheat. He's on record as saying you'd never thereafter be considered as a candidate to be HIS sub or slave, since you're a cheater.

(The saints have discussed whores before: one likened them to the sewage system of a city; they take care of an unpleasant and unseemly task. Better a guy fuck a whore than his neighbor's wife! Iow saints are ambivalent, as is our local one, apparently.)

Well, that's still wordy, but maybe clearer.



J.

 

[catalina_francisco]

My dearest child,

Thou sound a bit upset, come to me and confess thy sins so I can help you deal with them. I can help you with your problems and if what they need is a good spanking or whipping they can get that from me for such is my love for all in the BDSM world that I am willing to lower myself to help thy in thou moment of need..

He apparently doesn't care (I think) if you, a wife, see a pro dom, even if on the sly. (At least that's suggested in some postings.)

I have no problem with anyone doing whatever he wants my son, it is a fact of life that we Saints have big hearts and can forgive our fellow brothers and we are all brothers and sisters, cause are we not all children of God our Father above?

However as I am sure you recollect from our numerous and boring discussions we have had, I have often said that to me cheating occurs when the cheater is not being honest and steps out of the agreed boundaries of the relationship. Would a cheater go to a prostitute or Pro Domme and not tell his significant other and would the cheater going to the Pro Domme or whore be seen as stepping outside the agreed boundaries of the relationship then yes that would be seen by me as cheating. I hope I have been able now to remove any doubts you might have had about my position.

Like I have said I have no moral problems with the profession of whore or Pro Domme or Lawyer for that matter. They are all legal ways to earn your living. And prostitutes are known to have the oldest profession in existence as it is. By the way thank you for teaching me a new word “beatific”, had not heard of that term used in this context before. See I am starting to become more saintly every day; humility is the hardest of the saintly characteristics for me. It is hard to combine that with being an arrogant prick. But with my intimate knowledge I have of God I will soon reach the elevated state of Saintly hood and I am convinced that soon the Pope will make me the Patron for all BDSM related church business.

Before I retreat into the chapel to pray for forgiveness for not having the proper strength in my words to be able to convince you sinners to change your sinful ways, a pearl of wisdom delivered to me by one of our sisters. Lies and cheating are issues relating to consent and trust and honesty and as such are not good to do if you are into BDSM, since trust and honesty should be the cornerstone of a BDSM relationship.

Amen and hallelujah.

Saint Francisco.

 

[Pure]

I bend my knee in your beatific presence,

I hear the empyrean words,

SF: However as I am sure you recollect from our numerous and boring discussions we have had, I have often said that to me cheating occurs when the cheater is not being honest and steps out of the agreed boundaries of the relationship. Would a cheater go to a prostitute or Pro Domme and not tell his significant other and would the cheater going to the Pro Domme or whore be seen as stepping outside the agreed boundaries of the relationship then yes that would be seen by me as cheating. I hope I have been able now to remove any doubts you might have had about my position.

Well, then, the whore or pro dome is helping(servicing) a cheater, in many or most cases (where the spouse is unaware and/or disaproves). Correct?

Why isn't that immoral, on your view?

Just as immoral(where I am assumed to be single, uncommited) as my willingness to fuck an adultress?

Confused.

I shall ask my SO to say a rosary for me to help save my soul.


I'm glad to be witnessing this spiritual transmogrification first hand; is it true you can now talk with squirrels, as did your namesake?

 

[Pure]

Hi Miss E,

So you don't feel neglected in all the saintly palaver: I re read your early posts and gather you have sub-ish or bottom-ish tendencies, so far as you can tell. Your degree of actual experimentation is not clear.

AS per the directions of our saint, I checked the big _Merriam Webster Unabridged_ dictionary, the one used by the Supreme Court (about 8 ins thick; now available by subscription online).

======

Merriam Webster Unabridged:

"Adultery"

1 : voluntary sexual intercourse between a married man and someone other than his wife or between a married woman and someone other than her husband <if a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death -- Lev 20:10 (Revised Standard Version)>

"unfaithful: "

c : not faithful to marriage vows <his unfaithful wife had eloped with her latest lover -- Harrison Smith>


===
I'm not recommending or advocating or directing you, I'm suggesting some thought be given to these two possibilities; weigh them and make your own decisions:

1) a cyber relationship with a dom or domme (which is your pref?)

2) an r.l. encounter (or a series of them) with a dom or domme, where there is no sexual contact.

It would be assumed that your love for your husband remains strong and that attentiveness to his needs remains in practice.

It can be seen that neither of these constitute 'adultery' and nor 'unfaithfulness' in a broader sense unless your marriage vows were written by a cyber-techie lawyer!

I'm simply inquiring about your thoughts (if you choose to share them) and leave to you and your spiritual advisors --and any online advice givers you wish to listen to--what, IF ANYTHING, to do.

Best,
J.

 

[Lady Emerald]

Hey, while they fight, why don't you give me some backround, and I'll give you some saintly advice...

I'm enjoying reading the exchanges here-----but some of them are too long and life is too short!! While that has been going on a couple of people pm'd me with their experiences----people who have the dilemma of being in a good family situation but with conflicting desires. For right now I'm going to start on a story--that might keep my cravings at bay for a while. Meanwhile, I'll enjoy the entertainment on this board. Its about time for you to get mad again, isn't it?

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Its about time for you to get mad again, isn't it?

Are you trying to be a smartass?

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

I wonder...do people just come here to have someone tell them it is ok to be a lying decietful piece of shit...or am I reading the situation wrong?