Anyone out there who is into BDSM but your partner/spouse is NOT?

[catalina_francisco]

My child Pure,

I see that I have been a good influence on you and that you have actually finally looked up unfaithful, praise the Lord for in his wisdom he has seen fit to give you the strength for this gruesome task.

Let me further enlighten you in the hope that more of the wisdom granted to me by the almighty will be able to pull you farther away from the devils path for those that follow the horned one are doomed, with their souls forced to spend an eternity without ever feeling the goodness of our benevolent Father.

Well, then, the whore or pro dome is helping(servicing) a cheater, in many or most cases (where the spouse is unaware and/or disaproves). Correct?

Why isn't that immoral, on your view?

Just as immoral(where I am assumed to be single, uncommited) as my willingness to fuck an adultress?

]

It is clear that the Pro Domme in this is case is a facilitating a service which is helping the cheater, they make it easier to cheat as it. The question of course that is open is the Pro Domme as bad as the cheater; I would not go that far. In many cases the Pro Domme will not know or want to know that her customer is cheating. To them it is a non issue; they are giving a service that is based not on a morality but on market economy. You get what you pay for.

You could ask the question about the corner drug store where you buy a pack of smokes, is the one that sells you the pack of smokes responsible for you getting long cancer?

And does it mean that the drug stores should be banned because they sell cigarettes?

I do not make that decision for anyone else but my self, I do not play around with anyone who cheats, and I do not cheat myself. I personally think that it is the proper and correct way to act. And it is definitely the saintly way to behave.

Saint Francisco.

 

[amsubone]

Been there, done that, wish i hadn't.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Been there, done that, wish i hadn't.

Not to make light of your troubles...but are you suggesting a negative outcome to certain behaviors?

 

[wolf2002]

I wonder...do people just come here to have someone tell them it is ok to be a lying decietful piece of shit...or am I reading the situation wrong?

I wonder if this remark was directed at Lady Emerald... it seems so... why don;t you all read the first post of this thread, does it say anything about cheating?

The question was if anyone has experience with maintaining a BDSM relation within a vanilla marriage. Who says this has to be without consent or behind the back of husband/wife?

Perhaps it's better to leave the whole saint/whore thing for a while, since we know where everyone stands...

Wolf

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

I wonder if this remark was directed at Lady Emerald... it seems so... why don;t you all read the first post of this thread, does it say anything about cheating?

The question was if anyone has experience with maintaining a BDSM relation within a vanilla marriage. Who says this has to be without consent or behind the back of husband/wife?

Perhaps it's better to leave the whole saint/whore thing for a while, since we know where everyone stands...

Wolf

I'm sorry...I misspelled "deceitful".

 

[wolf2002]

I'm sorry...I misspelled "deceitful".

Do you have any idea what penalty Saint Francisco has in store for misspellers?

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Do you have any idea what penalty Saint Francisco has in store for misspellers?

What, he's going to make my SO cheat on me?

 

[wolf2002]

What, he's going to make my SO cheat on me?

:lol:

 

[catalina_francisco]

My brothers and sisters,

I am in the business of saving souls not punishing. So all of you say ten holy Mary’s and be done with it.

Saint Francisco

 

[catalina_francisco]

Perhaps it's better to leave the whole saint/whore thing for a while, since we know where everyone stands...

Wolf

....or lays.

C

 

[Netzach]

I'm going to reiterate my advice from before.

Do what you need to do, as long as you can live with it.

Whether that's telling your spouse to get kinky or get going, buying a pony, joining Ringling Brothers or becoming Roy Horn's stand in, selling your worldly possessions and going to the San Francisco zen center or working as a professional flogging whore in a Mill Town....God Almighty life is too short. You know right from wrong and how much of each you are willing to pay the price for. Be happy. Do it quick.

Do whatever you have to do, as long as you can look yourself in the eye.

 

[Lady Emerald]

My brothers and sisters,

I am in the business of saving souls not punishing. So all of you say ten holy Mary’s and be done with it.

Saint Francisco

----I'm sure that was a deliberate mistake to see if we are still awake, it should of course be Hail Marys----

----but we don't want to be pedantic, ...or do we?

 

[Lady Emerald]

Wolf, with that all seeing eye of his sounds like, and reads like the voice of reason and calm in a veritable religious whirl wind going on around here.
I find the responses are divided into 2 broad categories; the ones that discuss particular and specific situations and experiences involving people's belief systems and their real lives, and the responses that paint with large brush strokes and discuss the concepts of morality, faithfullness/unfaithfulness in abstract form. Both are very valuable contributions to the discussion (I don't like conflict and always want to resolve it--that's why Johnny called me 'party pooper'!).

 

[spankableBelle]

hmmm...

So, say you've talked to your spouse, "honey i am really interested in exploring BDSM. i think i'm submissive...etc etc etc'... your spouse looks at you like you've grown two heads and starts looking up the numbers of therapists in the phone book for you because you're obviously nuts...you're not entirely sure on the whole scene...you've read about it until you're cross-eyed...you've talked to all manner of individuals that are involved in one way or another in the lifestyle...you're fascinated, entralled, and yes to some extent horny and hungry for a taste of this feeling that you can't seem to let go of...but, you're supposed to end the marriage, so you can try it out? to see if it truly is worth all of the craving that you feel...? because the being totally open and honest thing up to that point really hasn't worked all that well even though your spouse is a great man, though he thinks that because a lifestyle change is not for him that it really isn't for you either, that it's just a phase, that it'll pass...but how then is anyone to really know unless they try...but then, to try is to be a lying cheating deceitful blah blah blah that can't keep her cunt dry...it is best then to walk out of the marriage, divorce, drag the kids through hell, yourself and your spouse too...just so that you can 'try' the lifestyle on? and if you find that it isn't for you, but you've already walked away and lost your family for something that at the time was nothing more than really a curiosity because you didn't really know if being bound and whipped and gagged and humiliated and made to beg was for you...what then?

i have a great respect for people here that give advice...and i don't mean to start a holy war, not even sure if what i said made any sense...but, until one is actually faced with the situation, in the middle of the situation...how can anyone else dispense anything beyond their own opinions of how things should work rather than how in the reality of the dirty situation things do work?

i have read this thread with great interest and have posted on past threads (though this is the first one of this year aside from a roleplay)...there is passion on both sides of the issue...those faced with the situation day in and day out, and those that have been fortunate enough to not have to face it themselves...there is no blanket, clear cut right or wrong answer except for the one that is right for you...as one poster said, you have to be able to look yourself in the eye ...you have to be able to live with yourself...

can i have a beer now?

belle

 

[Pure]

Hi Spankable B,

I think you put things very well --quoted at the end. There are things one doesn't know about oneself. There are indeed 'phases' but not necessarily when the partner says so. And some changes of taste are not phases.

Contrary to all the stories about "I discovered I'm lesbian" "I discovered I'm a sub." things may not be so simple. Not everyone will end up in a neat bag. The claim "I was born this way, now I know it..." is just not always true, though it's believed.

Yes, there is curiosity, and how do you get to where to look into satisfying it. As you say, Spankable, what basically good situation has to be junked or left aside for this curiosity?

Further, the fantasy and the reality are pretty different: a beating in a book has quite a different 'feel' than one in real life.
Bullshit about SM experiences is part of the larger bullshit about sex generally: it aint quite what's in the stories, esp. the formula ones that float around parts of the internet. So as with sex generally, probably lotsa SM decisions are based in fantasy.

All the above are things that the 'disclose and decide"--'let it all hang out'-- people tend to minimize. Suppose you already knew something about yourself: you loved competitive ice skating. You give it up at the time of a marriage and maybe while a kid comes. You agree to be MOM. Then you realize "I really want to do this: I miss it. It's me, it's my career."

This is the kind of situation I agree is fairly straightforward: disclose (this is what I want); see the reaction (other says 'cant live with your being on tour.'); decide (I'll leaving to pursue it.)

An inlaw of mine, marrying into the family after already several years of music training, decided to go for being a professional performer in an established group. She said so, and left the marriage; got divorced; went to Europe and found a group.

My point, as at the beginning and as said by Spankable, is that sexual tastes and fantasies and kinks are not so easy as this example. One does NOT know oneself; it's different from in the examples just above where there is good reason to think the person knows what they want; they've done it. The 'disclose and decide' approach is not necessarily best; nor is leaving best when the value of the new, the fantasy, is unknown.

J.


you're fascinated, entralled, and yes to some extent horny and hungry for a taste of this feeling that you can't seem to let go of...but, you're supposed to end the marriage, so you can try it out? to see if it truly is worth all of the craving that you feel...? because the being totally open and honest thing up to that point really hasn't worked all that well even though your spouse is a great man, though he thinks that because a lifestyle change is not for him that it really isn't for you either, that it's just a phase, that it'll pass...but how then is anyone to really know unless they try...but then, to try is to be a lying cheating deceitful blah blah blah that can't keep her cunt dry...it is best then to walk out of the marriage, divorce, drag the kids through hell, yourself and your spouse too...just so that you can 'try' the lifestyle on? and if you find that it isn't for you, but you've already walked away and lost your family for something that at the time was nothing more than really a curiosity because you didn't really know if being bound and whipped and gagged and humiliated and made to beg was for you...what then?

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Re: hmmm...

So, say you've talked to your spouse, "honey i am really interested in exploring BDSM. i think i'm submissive...etc etc etc'... your spouse looks at you like you've grown two heads and starts looking up the numbers of therapists in the phone book for you because you're obviously nuts...you're not entirely sure on the whole scene...you've read about it until you're cross-eyed...you've talked to all manner of individuals that are involved in one way or another in the lifestyle...you're fascinated, entralled, and yes to some extent horny and hungry for a taste of this feeling that you can't seem to let go of...but, you're supposed to end the marriage, so you can try it out? to see if it truly is worth all of the craving that you feel...? because the being totally open and honest thing up to that point really hasn't worked all that well even though your spouse is a great man, though he thinks that because a lifestyle change is not for him that it really isn't for you either, that it's just a phase, that it'll pass...but how then is anyone to really know unless they try...but then, to try is to be a lying cheating deceitful blah blah blah that can't keep her cunt dry...it is best then to walk out of the marriage, divorce, drag the kids through hell, yourself and your spouse too...just so that you can 'try' the lifestyle on? and if you find that it isn't for you, but you've already walked away and lost your family for something that at the time was nothing more than really a curiosity because you didn't really know if being bound and whipped and gagged and humiliated and made to beg was for you...what then?

i have a great respect for people here that give advice...and i don't mean to start a holy war, not even sure if what i said made any sense...but, until one is actually faced with the situation, in the middle of the situation...how can anyone else dispense anything beyond their own opinions of how things should work rather than how in the reality of the dirty situation things do work?

i have read this thread with great interest and have posted on past threads (though this is the first one of this year aside from a roleplay)...there is passion on both sides of the issue...those faced with the situation day in and day out, and those that have been fortunate enough to not have to face it themselves...there is no blanket, clear cut right or wrong answer except for the one that is right for you...as one poster said, you have to be able to look yourself in the eye ...you have to be able to live with yourself...

can i have a beer now?

belle

No beer for you!!!! I'm having a Michelob, and I'm not sharing!


Seriously, though, a few questions and comments come to mind, regarding this whole situation(and I find it easier to do so when I ignore the snobbishness of the 'do whatever you want, and screw other people' crowd)

1) When you get married, doesn't that mean you have surrendered the right to act without regard for your partner? If you want to follow your dreams and desires without any guilt or responsibility, you should be single.

2) There is no perfect situation or people, and no black and white, but along the spectrum of possible behavior, aren't some behaviors less wrong than others? And shouldn't people at least try to do good? Or at least as little harm as possible?

3) Are we really talking about submission here, or are we talking about kink, the 'slap and tickle' stuff? I think this is a hugely important distinction that we rarely make. It is a difference between needing to live a different lifestyle, and simply following your gonads.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Well the try before you buy concept might be alive and well here, but what is so necessary about going back for more and more without paying, hoping the shopkeeper does not have you charged with shoplifting? As to 'advice' wothout having been faced with the situation, I think that very presuming, and not evident of reading all posts...add to that there are many past and present dramas around this very subject being played out on the board in various threads by various posters, so if actual living examples are sought, they flourish here, which always amazes me when yet again you switch on Lit and there is yet another carbon copy thread asking the same old question.

Perhaps it is like the toddler who believes, and is sometimes right, that if they ask enough, the answer will miraculously change to the one they want to hear......and that is what it is usually about...people posting to receive validation for something they do not feel comfortable with, but would like others to give them support for so they don't have to take all the responsibility themselves. That comes down to the question, where is the responsibility that is credited so much here with being a necessary part of BDSM from both sides?

Catalina

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Well the try before you buy concept might be alive and well here, but what is so necessary about going back for more and more without paying, hoping the shopkeeper does not have you charged with shoplifting? As to 'advice' wothout having been faced with the situation, I think that very presuming, and not evident of reading all posts...add to that there are many past and present dramas around this very subject being played out on the board in various threads by various posters, so if actual living examples are sought, they flourish here, which always amazes me when yet again you switch on Lit and there is yet another carbon copy thread asking the same old question.

Perhaps it is like the toddler who believes, and is sometimes right, that if they ask enough, the answer will miraculously change to the one they want to hear......and that is what it is usually about...people posting to receive validation for something they do not feel comfortable with, but would like others to give them support for so they don't have to take all the responsibility themselves. That comes down to the question, where is the responsibility that is credited so much here with being a necessary part of BDSM from both sides?

Catalina

Let me ask you a question: Do you think that the evident greed for pleasure, at the expense of honesty, commitment, and any feelings that the person's spouse may have, is indicitave of someone who is interested in submission and service? Or is it just something that some middle-aged women go through when they have a 'mid-life crisis', where they want life to be like a shitty romance novel?

 

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

(I don't like conflict and always want to resolve it--that's why Johnny called me 'party pooper'!).

I've noticed that you've been trying to police the thread thoughout, trying to get folks back on track, to be less confrontational. A IMO, word of wisdom....Spirited debate on certain topics is pretty common around here, as you have no DOUBT noticed. You will get no where fast trying to "resolve" the conflict. Most of the posters here rather ENJOY the conflict, or they wouldn't continue to post. It's not something that needs fixing, and folks will do what they will. Every poster can decide for themselves when they've had enough of the conflict. Ease up and enjoy the debate your little thread has engendered. It's just possible you may find something that works for your situation, as well.

~anelize

 

[catalina_francisco]

Let me ask you a question: Do you think that the evident greed for pleasure, at the expense of honesty, commitment, and any feelings that the person's spouse may have, is indicitave of someone who is interested in submission and service? Or is it just something that some middle-aged women go through when they have a 'mid-life crisis', where they want life to be like a shitty romance novel?

Well they don't necessarily have to be middle aged, or exclusively women, but I think at times it is more an 'I want!!' situation, than a deep desire to serve or submit. When I find anything in life I need deeply, to the point it occupies nearly every thought, I am willing to make the necessary sacrifices to get it. Greedy perhaps, but I think life is difficult enough without creating more heartache and sadness, not to mention too short to spend countless years in procrastination waiting for a magic wand to make everything work out perfect like in the romance novel you refer to.

Then we have those wanting to dominate and being held back by their stodgy SO!!!???!!!

I find it interesting it was said earlier there are things some do not know about themselves, so how can they be expected to know before they happen. This is true, but as any good therapist or marriage guidance counselor will tell you. If you are not happy in yourself, if you do not know yourself through and through, what makes you tick and who you are, don't even contemplate a relationship as you will be looking for someone to make you happy and discover who you are, both of which fail miserably, not to mention burden someone else with your own responsibilities. Problem is denial is alive and well, as is the propensity to have others 'fix' you, so you do not have to make the effort yourself. That is not my idea of romance or happy ever after, nor BDSM.

C

 

[spankableBelle]

again, hmmm...

Ya'll are right...and i say ya'll because a couple of you are right there sharing the same cup of coffee. ~smiles~

Trying not to go with the 'what about me' after all these years scenario...what about me? We all deserve to be happy, period. Maybe it doesn't jive with most that married people enter into whatever they enter into on the side, or the motivation for doing so...it's not always so cut and dried easy to jump into divorce either or to walk away after year and years.

There is a responsibility to one's spouse, and children, and family as a whole. But somewhere along the way, there has to be a responsibility to oneself. Doesn't there?

i went to a therapist once when all this was starting inside of me, when i started making discoveries about myself...her 'professional' solution to my dilemma?...either live with it and stop beating my head against the brick wall, or find someone to explore it all with to help me find myself and if it's what i truly wanted, or if it was just a little 'kink' that i was searching for...Neither of those answers was what i wanted to hear. i wanted to hear 'leave him and find yourself...you are important too'...but the overall message i got was, don't destroy your world for the green grass on the other side without having figured out how it is kept so green...

No, an ongoing affair isn't going to go anywhere for very long...at least not normally. And i don't expect it to. i expect to have to make that choice...do i stay or do i go? Do i hope that i understand enough of the soul of the lifestyle that i have dunked my foot into to know that it is where i wish to dunk the rest of myself? Or, do i hope that it'll just pass, it'll go away, that serving and servicing will disappear and leave me without a trace of ever having been there?

For me, for the years that i've struggled with this...for the years that i've put myself through a soulful hell and my husband not being the least bit 'noticing' of the slight changes in me have been hard, frustrating, peace stealing...

When asked if i truly want to submit? yes, i 'think' so...why do i only 'think' so? because it is something i only feel inside of me...i feel it deep and knawing and gut-wrenching most of the time...sometimes i can firmly say 'yes'...but i have never said 'no'.

It is a need, for me...more than a kinky joy ride...to learn all that i can, to find as many answers as i can before destroying so many other lives...maybe the way i choose isn't the right way...but it is the path i've chosen and it doesn't make me a bad person...i write stories. i read constantly. i talk to people. i am seriously, soulfully immersed in learning all i can about the whole lifestyle, not just the kink (just used it as an example). my spouse knows and chooses, yes chooses, to ignore what is going on in front of him because to acknowledge it means to ruin his own image of what he wants...

i will crawl back into my corner now with my hot chocolate and read some more...

belle

 

[catalina_francisco]

Belle, I can understand what you are saying, but there are things you are missing. Yes, you marry, you have a responsibility to children, spouse, and yourself, which does not usually mean deception of any including yourself. In most marriages, unless agreed by both parties to be an open marriage, there is shutting down the openness of others entering that intimate zone of emotions you have comitted to another. If that changes, it is a sign you have problems to deal with. I also think many may find their desire for BDSM is an escape to avoid dealing with the real issues within the marriage. Another thing to consider is how do you make a decison once you commit to deception? Your relationship is no longer what it was or will be without that 3rd invisible person, nor is the relationship you have with your secret lover going to be the same as you will have when you are free to indulge without a SO in the background.

You can try and guess what it would be like, but both situations are what they are because of the circumstances, and therefore make it difficult to predict what they will be, or how you will feel, once you decide one way or the other and begin to live in your chosen reality. It comes back to you, knowing who you are, in other words you need to know who you are without anyone else....then you at least have a base to develop on what you need and want out of your life without relying on someone else to change your life for you. A submissive has to have something more to offer than a broken life in hope of repair by a Dominant.

C

 

[spankableBelle]

~smiles~

i agree Catalina.

one does need to find out who they are, what their needs are without the influence of another, without promises to another. we all need to know who we are before trying to be with someone else...some of us thought we knew and have changed along the way and now are faced with this new dilemma...love of the spouse, but knowing deep down inside that there are needs that will not ever be met by that person...

belle

 

[catalina_francisco]

Re: ~smiles~

i agree Catalina.

one does need to find out who they are, what their needs are without the influence of another, without promises to another. we all need to know who we are before trying to be with someone else...some of us thought we knew and have changed along the way and now are faced with this new dilemma...love of the spouse, but knowing deep down inside that there are needs that will not ever be met by that person...

belle

Which is where my definition of love, or to be more definitive, intimate 'in love' type love, differ from some. In my observations, and experiences as a counsellor, what many define as love is love, but not the type on which a lasting relationship is built. In reality it is a love often interwoven with a dream of what it was going to be, and the fantasy and reality become blurred making it difficult to differentiate and accept reality. It is what I mean when I mention 'letting go of the dream'.....IMHO and experience, we all go into relationships (not necessarily marriage, but many do) with an element of dream about what it is going to be in reality. When we find the dream does not equal the reality, in some cases does not even resemble it, it is difficult to get to the point where you can surrender that dream image in the psyche and accept it is never going to be that in reality.

It is why many marry even when deep down they have a voice inside questioning it....you often see people on talk shows saying how they want to change everything about their partner....they fall in love with a fantasy image not a real person, often induced by physical appeal, often the other person triggers a memory of someone else......it is why many stay in unhappy relationships and try and make them work or believe they can either change themselves or their partner to make it work.

I am not minimising the difficulty it takes to pull out of that state, it can take years, and for some it is impossible. The reality is though you love someone, if they leave you feeling they cannot fulfil your fundamental needs in a relationship, they are not the love of your life, the one you can be 'in love' with and not feel you are missing out on something. When you reacch that point, it is time to decide if you can live that life the rest of your days and not grow bitter and resentful, or if it is time to bite the bullet and reward yourself by breaking free and going for what you need. You are the only one who can make that decision, neither your SO, lover, friend, or family can make it for you. Life is short and each day spent in a frustrated situation is one less spent in bliss...if you want to live your dream you have to make it happen.

Catalina

 

[sexymom]

The concept of "open marriages" either infuriates me or amuses me- I'm not sure which. There has been much discussion here along the lines of "if you don't tell your spouse, it's immoral cheating, but if you do it's an open marriage and that's ok, sort of".

There is no open marriage, people. It is a sad situation when one partner wants to explore and the other doesn't- been there myself. Many people feel that cheating/adultery is the answer, or at least the temporary answer. Many feel that for them it might work- that's sort of like buying lottery tickets, I know. But someone who is getting a little on the side, with spouse's knowledge and permission, has no more right to the moral high ground than the ones whose spouses don't know.