Are/Would You Get Involved w/ Someone in a Relationship?

[Nikasha]

It was ugly...

Several years ago, I dated a guy for about six months. And found out that he
had been engaged for two years. And that all his friends who we'd been hanging out with knew, but they didn't like her. His excuse was that he was
just making sure he wanted to marry her. Loathsome. Vile. The worst part, she
found out all about me the day before the wedding-- packing his things, she
found some of the "love letters" I'd sent him. Poor girl married him anyway. Then found my phone number and called and tried to grill me on everything he'd said/done to/with me. Horrible horrible horrible.

I've had the so called opportunity to be the other woman again, and I've flat out REFUSED, regardless of his excuses. I just can't go there again. The karma
is too devastating.

 

[Melesse]

I know this isn't quite on topic, but I had to ask. What, if anything, DOES constitute cheating for you? Would it be cheating if your wife did it, but only sex if you did it? Is it only cheating if you fall in love with the other person? I'm not trying to be rude; I'm just nosy.

The reason I'm asking is because, if you were fucking someone else, and your wife considered it cheating, I should think that what you thought would be irrelevant. I'm just curious as to how the two of you reconcile your different "moral systems."

Of course, in an open relationship, all these questions are irrelevant.

Now see, it depends. On one hand, I would be extremely jealous and unhappy with my wife if she fell in love with someone else. On the other hand, I understand that love is an emotion with it's basis in a chemical reaction in ones brain, and thus not under control. The only real control you have over falling in love with someone is whether or not to hang around with them.

What DEFINITELY constitutes cheating to me is lying. The love thing.../me shrugs. I dunno about that yet.

We reconcile our moral systems by living by the more restrictive one. It's a marriage, it seems common sense to me that in any relationship, in order to make it work you have to go by whichever one is more restrictive. Otherwise, you're really not being honest with the opposite number. Now, my wife knows my feelings on this sort of thing, and it's something we're talking about. Does this mean in the future it might become a marriage that goes more by my moral system? Perhaps, perhaps not. But I made my choice to live by the more restrictive system because she was worth it.

Interesting views, and I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on Eilan's questions as well.

Also (and anyone who doesn't have a problem with involvement with a cheater is welcome to answer as well), would it bother you if her spouse found out and was really hurt and angry? Or if you cared about her and all communication was stopped abrupty and permanently because her spouse found out?

It would bother me to some small degree. However, I don't feel as though that's my problem. Their SO cheated on them, it was their SO's choice. And of course I would be bothered in the second set of circumstances. If I cared about her, of course lol. You should also define "caring." If I loved her, I think I would be cheating on my wife. I still "care" about everyone I've ever hooked up with. Just in differing amounts, and with a corresponding amount of bother when it ended. Some were easier to let go than others.

EDIT: Edited as I read farther down.

I disagree Erika and Holly. Cheating is not always indicative of a problem in a relationship. Cheating is indicative of a loss of willpower and self discipline, not necessarily a problem. No one person can meet every single one of another persons needs. We aren't that capable. It doesn't even have to be sexual, it can be something else, and when the offer comes (it doesn't have to be sexual to be cheating) we can't, nor do we want to say no.

A more realistic explanation for cheating is simply that someone's needs are not being met somewhere, and they need to turn elsewhere to meet that need. If you look deep enough in every relationship you can find problems to blame cheating on.

Melesse

 

[SweetErika]

EDIT: Edited as I read farther down.

I disagree Erika and Holly. Cheating is not always indicative of a problem in a relationship. Cheating is indicative of a loss of willpower and self discipline, not necessarily a problem. No one person can meet every single one of another persons needs. We aren't that capable. It doesn't even have to be sexual, it can be something else, and when the offer comes (it doesn't have to be sexual to be cheating) we can't, nor do we want to say no.

A more realistic explanation for cheating is simply that someone's needs are not being met somewhere, and they need to turn elsewhere to meet that need. If you look deep enough in every relationship you can find problems to blame cheating on.

Melesse

Thanks for the reply, Melesse.

About the above quote. Let me clarify that I agree people often need more than one partner/spouse is able or willing to give, and for many (including me), it's perfectly natural to find some of those things somewhere else.

That said, I don't think healthy couples make sure needs are met by cheating. Lying and cheating are indicative of a lack of respect and inability to communicate, and those ARE definitely problems in the relationship. In other words, if you're cheating, you're lying (likely because you can't communicate), and lying is disrespecting your partner. I don't want to be in a relationship in which respect, trust, and communication aren't fully there...I'd rather either fix it or break up than have one of us cheat. So basically I feel healthy relationships have ALL of those characteristics, and problematic ones don't.

 

[Melesse]

That said, I don't think healthy couples make sure needs are met by cheating. Lying and cheating are indicative of a lack of respect and inability to communicate, and those ARE definitely problems in the relationship. In other words, if you're cheating, you're lying (likely because you can't communicate), and lying is disrespecting your partner. I don't want to be in a relationship in which respect, trust, and communication aren't fully there...I'd rather either fix it or break up than have one of us cheat. So basically I feel healthy relationships have ALL of those characteristics, and problematic ones don't.

I think this is partially a chicken and egg question. Sure, if you're cheating you're lying, but which one was first? Is it a problematic relationship first, and a cheating problem second, or did you cheat, and that made it a problematic relationship?

Of course, there are cases (perhaps most cases) where it is problematic, though I daresay all relationships are problematic to a point, and that leads to cheating.

I dunno, as you can tell, I'm still trying to reconcile my own feelings on the subject lol.

Melesse

 

[SweetErika]

<snip>
And like others have said, if someone is attached emotionally to someone, why would I want to get involved with either one of them? I'm not interested in messy dramas, no matter how "wonderful" someone is. If I'm going to actually get serious about someone, I don't want to just give a bit of myself, or just get a bit of someone else...

Thanks for such a well thought-out response, Rip. I think the point above is an excellent one. I don't know that I've ever thought of it as the people not being able to give themselves fully, but can certainly see where that comes into play.

 

[Exciteher]

I unfortunately, have seen this question from both sides, having been cheated on, and having cheated. I agree with Nikasha that the karmic results are just too devastating. I agree with SweetErica that cheating is a sure sign of prexisting weaknesses in a relationship. Live and learn. Perhaps for me, the silver lining to this cloud was that I learned all this within the span of only one marriage. That 13 yr marriage ended in 1990, but not because of the cheating, it ended because the cheating forced us to honestly communicate, and we found we were not right for each other. A couple years later I met someone, and we had a very loving, very commited and very open relationship, that 11 yr relationship only ended with her untimely passing. Wow, did she ever teach me a lot, did she ever illuminate the world for me.

Here is what I learned.

It is the lying, and the destruction of trust, that is by far the most destructive thing.

A very close second is the effects of the cheating on the "bystanders", the families of both the people that are cheating. Seeing the incidental pain that cheating causes is too much to bare, and is personally destructive to all affected.

So, speaking for myself,

If I and my partner(s) cannot communicate honestly and compassionately about everything, we have a big problem.

If I and my partner(s) cannot negotiate a way to get our needs met, in a way that honors the needs of all concerned, we have a choices we must make, and we need to be able to talk openly about those choices. If we cannot do that,there is a big problem.

We always have choices, "biochemical imperatives" not withstanding. And we do not have to be attached to any particular outcome, we can say"yes", we can wave goodbye, we can do anything in-between.

And if we have needs that are not being met in our relationship we have to communicate that to each other.
I learned that what a person resists, persists.

It is natural for me to be sexually and/or emotionally attracted to people, including people outside my relationship, there is nothing immoral about it, and I have to own my "urges". Being attracted is not cheating... not being honest or open with my partner about what I am feeling, thinking, planning, doing... and not checking in with her, and how what is going on with me would affect her,... is cheating. So, there is no chicken and egg problem. I either am honest or I am not. I either lie and hide from her or I am open with her. It's simple.

And if I am drawn to someone outside of my relationship, or they to me, I have to communicate that to my partner(s). Especially if I am thinking of acting on an outside interest, or the other person has made some move.

Now I have to define how I will use exclusivity below, I mean that as either sexual or emotional exclusivity, or both. Personally, I think of it as meaning both, but I know others that may chose it to mean one or the other. What is important is that expectations about this are open to discussion between people, black and white does not really work here.

Some people need exclusivity in a relationship, and that is great, but both partners must be willing and able to"walk the walk", and do the work needed to co-create that, openly

Some people do not need exclusivity in a relationship, and that is great, but again both partners must be willing and able to "walk the walk", and do the work needed to co-create that, openly.

If a person that needs exclusivity is partnered with one that does not, or if there is a double-standard involved (Its OK for me to go outside, but it is not OK for you to do so,) then there is a built in problem here, especially if communications are not crystal clear and very open.

I learned that people can find relationship and get their needs met. (even if those needs are not what this culture calls"conventional",) if they are "on the same page", are honest, and can communicate. I learned that no one has to hide, no one has to be ashamed, no one has to go through life being anything other than themselves. All it takes is being open with yourself and others.

That's my two cents, again, your mileage may vary.

 

[boston_bbw]

Doing it as we speak. Can't say it's one of the best decisions I have ever made. He is the one cheating not me.. and yet I think I am feeling the guilt not him..lol go figure. And it's kind of a double edged sword. If he left her I would never want to be his SO, since I know he is capable of lying and cheating.. yet he wouldn't be doing it if I didn't allow it.. Maybe that makes me worse then him who is actually cheating? I don't know...

 

[SweetErika]

That's my two cents, again, your mileage may vary.

Nah...that's worth at least a dollar.

Great, well thought-out post, as always.

 

[SweetErika]

Doing it as we speak. Can't say it's one of the best decisions I have ever made. He is the one cheating not me.. and yet I think I am feeling the guilt not him..lol go figure. And it's kind of a double edged sword. If he left her I would never want to be his SO, since I know he is capable of lying and cheating.. yet he wouldn't be doing it if I didn't allow it.. Maybe that makes me worse then him who is actually cheating? I don't know...

I was speaking to friends about the "at fault/guilt" issue of this topic the other day. They asserted it's the person's responsibility to deal with their own relationship, not the problem of those outside the relationship. Essentially, as long as the outsider isn't doing something to purposefully interfere, they really don't have much impact on or culpability for what happens between the spouses. So according to that theory, getting involved w/o a spouse's consent and even the demise of their relationship shouldn't cause guilt for the other person because they're not the one lying and doing hurtful things.

Thoughts, anyone?

 

[pinkstarfish]

No...........

(online doesn't count)

 

[Exciteher]

.....Essentially, as long as the outsider isn't doing something to purposefully interfere, they really don't have much impact on or culpability for what happens between the spouses. So according to that theory, getting involved w/o a spouse's consent and even the demise of their relationship shouldn't cause guilt for the other person because they're not the one lying and doing hurtful things.

Thoughts, anyone?

I think, as you describe things above, it would be the case if the "outsider" was also being lied to, and did not know the real story about the spouses consent, or ever that a spouse existed, getting involved w/o a spouse's consent and even the demise of their relationship shouldn't cause guilt for the other person because they're not the one lying and doing hurtful things.

On the other hand, speaking for myself, if I were the "outsider" and I knew my potential playmate had a spouse that was in the dark, it would be impossable for me not to empathise with the spouse, and how my enabling my potential playmate to misbehave could and would affect the spouse. Nope...I can't go there without feeling guilty that the ripples I would make in the pond would leave the pond in a worse condition...for everyone involved... me included.

Yeah, each person in a relationship must "own", take responsability for that relationship, and their part of that relationship. Now, if I get involved with someone who is attached, then that is in itself a relationship between me and that person. If the spouse is on board, fine, now there is another relationship!... and I would have to "own" all that, and my part in it.

But I can chose what I want to "own".. and for myself I would not want to own my tacit, de facto consent to a lie, or be a party to a deception. There is an irony here also, by fucking someone while they lie to their spouse, I would be helping them go down an unhappy road... that seems at cross purposes to me!

 

[queen_of_cups]

Not knowingly, no. My husband and I recently started down the polyamorous path, and we adhere to seeking permission with each other. We're not really interested in casual arrangements and swinging, but rather other true relationships while continuing to maintain our marriage. Therefore we've set out certain guidelines for ourselves about what does and doesn't constitute cheating within our relationship and any relationships that we might have with others.

Neither one of us considers online to be cheating, as long as there are no rules binding the -other- person either. I hold myself accountable to making the best effort I can to ascertain whether or not someone I'm might share a fantasy with has any rules binding him or her. If I'm lied to, there's not much I can do about it. But if I'm told truthfully that there are rules that need to be followed for the other person's relationships, then I respect them.

 

[SweetErika]

No...........

(online doesn't count)

Well, it seems a lot of people really think online doesn't count. I have trouble with that because several of my online friendships have developed into real life relationships, so then I'd wonder where the line was between counting or not.

I'd be very curious to hear ideas on when (or if) it starts to count from those who generally feel online stuff doesn't, but maybe have a problem with having a relationship with someone who is keeping it from their spouse.

Good food for thought.

 

[SweetErika]

I think, as you describe things above, it would be the case if the "outsider" was also being lied to, and did not know the real story about the spouses consent, or ever that a spouse existed, getting involved w/o a spouse's consent and even the demise of their relationship shouldn't cause guilt for the other person because they're not the one lying and doing hurtful things.

On the other hand, speaking for myself, if I were the "outsider" and I knew my potential playmate had a spouse that was in the dark, it would be impossable for me not to empathise with the spouse, and how my enabling my potential playmate to misbehave could and would affect the spouse. Nope...I can't go there without feeling guilty that the ripples I would make in the pond would leave the pond in a worse condition...for everyone involved... me included.

Yeah, each person in a relationship must "own", take responsability for that relationship, and their part of that relationship. Now, if I get involved with someone who is attached, then that is in itself a relationship between me and that person. If the spouse is on board, fine, now there is another relationship!... and I would have to "own" all that, and my part in it.

But I can chose what I want to "own".. and for myself I would not want to own my tacit, de facto consent to a lie, or be a party to a deception. There is an irony here also, by fucking someone while they lie to their spouse, I would be helping them go down an unhappy road... that seems at cross purposes to me!

Yes, that sums my feelings up pretty well. While I understand the theory that I'm not responsible for their marital troubles, I just can't reconcile that with what's in my heart or stop thinking about how I'd feel if I was in the wife's place.

 

[SweetErika]

Not knowingly, no. My husband and I recently started down the polyamorous path, and we adhere to seeking permission with each other. We're not really interested in casual arrangements and swinging, but rather other true relationships while continuing to maintain our marriage. Therefore we've set out certain guidelines for ourselves about what does and doesn't constitute cheating within our relationship and any relationships that we might have with others.

Neither one of us considers online to be cheating, as long as there are no rules binding the -other- person either. I hold myself accountable to making the best effort I can to ascertain whether or not someone I'm might share a fantasy with has any rules binding him or her. If I'm lied to, there's not much I can do about it. But if I'm told truthfully that there are rules that need to be followed for the other person's relationships, then I respect them.

I really like the way you put that, Queen.

Out of curiosity, are there any rules/limitation for the other person that you might consider unreasonable and possibly ignore? For example, some may say it's not okay for their spouse to come to Lit or talk to members of the opposite sex platonically. Also, will you associate with a person who hasn't talked to their spouse about limitations?

 

[kenneth6866]

Getting involved with someone I met on theWWW

I looked for someone to just exchange sexual mail. ie, How I began masturbating, how I lost my virginity, and other sexual things. Some very hot messages when back and forth, and gave me some lovely reasons to "pleasure myself"

Then about 5 years ago, I decided to attempt to find some local women, hoping for some casual sex. There were a few cases of women, putting me on, and I suspect some female wannabees. Then I met Rosemarie on line. She was local and admitted she was a bbw. After weeks of e-mails she agreed to meet me. We had coffee one Thursday after she had a weigh in at a salon/gym.

We seemed to click, and after some follow up lounge "dates" Rosemarie agreed to have a tryst. She worked for the local school district, and Thanksgiving was about to give her a week off.

I got a motel room and called her on her cell phone with the room number. Then I set out to make the room somewhat romantic. Votive candles were lit, about a dozen of them. I had bought a cheese log and crackers, and some fancy crackers.

When Rosmarie came in we kissed and tore at each oythers clothes. The first orgasm was pure lust. When she came out from taking a piss, Rosemarie had a warm wash cloth, and cleaned my jock. She loves cock, she loves giving head. After I orgasmed, I began a routine of kissing her from the top of her forehead all the way down her body, with special attention to her breasts. Rosemarie has very little hair, and she tasted so good, that I wanted to stay drinking at her Y for a long time.

We took about three hours, and promised to have another "meeting".

 

[Eilan]

And this is relevant to "Are/Would You Get Involved w/Someone in a Relationship?" in what way?

 

[wicked woman]

I was speaking to friends about the "at fault/guilt" issue of this topic the other day. They asserted it's the person's responsibility to deal with their own relationship, not the problem of those outside the relationship. Essentially, as long as the outsider isn't doing something to purposefully interfere, they really don't have much impact on or culpability for what happens between the spouses. So according to that theory, getting involved w/o a spouse's consent and even the demise of their relationship shouldn't cause guilt for the other person because they're not the one lying and doing hurtful things.

Thoughts, anyone?

I agree. It's the person in the monogamous committed relationship that is responsible for keeping and/or breaking that committment. They are the one that is dishonest in not discussing the extra relationship with their SO.

If I'm not in the committed relationship it's not my responsibility to honour the committment. Having said that though, I still think it's best for people in a committed monogamous relationship to honour it...or discuss other options. I think the dishonesty required, jeopardizes the trust necessary for the relationship to work.

 

[Gil_T2]

I agree. It's the person in the monogamous committed relationship that is responsible for keeping and/or breaking that committment. They are the one that is dishonest in not discussing the extra relationship with their SO.

If I'm not in the committed relationship it's not my responsibility to honour the committment. Having said that though, I still think it's best for people in a committed monogamous relationship to honour it...or discuss other options. I think the dishonesty required, jeopardizes the trust necessary for the relationship to work.

I'm thinking I'm strage as I have never cheated on a partner although at different times & partners I/we had had sex with others but in same room situations that said I have had several married/ attached ladies I have had sexual times with with no guilt at all as what we were doing was not what the lady got at home but was what she wanted so I have no guilt at all over this & several did comment that their home life had improved by them being pleased away from home.

 

[SweetErika]

And this is relevant to "Are/Would You Get Involved w/Someone in a Relationship?" in what way?

I was wondering that too, but I'm taking a wild guess the poster failed to read beyond the thread title. Or something.

I agree. It's the person in the monogamous committed relationship that is responsible for keeping and/or breaking that committment. They are the one that is dishonest in not discussing the extra relationship with their SO.

If I'm not in the committed relationship it's not my responsibility to honour the committment. Having said that though, I still think it's best for people in a committed monogamous relationship to honour it...or discuss other options. I think the dishonesty required, jeopardizes the trust necessary for the relationship to work.

Good thoughts, and you somehow phrased that in a way that really made sense to me all of a sudden. Previously, I didn't quite see how it was possible, but when I think about it, other people in my life haven't really impacted how I act in my marriage, so why wouldn't that be the same with most people?

 

[SweetErika]

I'm thinking I'm strage as I have never cheated on a partner although at different times & partners I/we had had sex with others but in same room situations that said I have had several married/ attached ladies I have had sexual times with with no guilt at all as what we were doing was not what the lady got at home but was what she wanted so I have no guilt at all over this & several did comment that their home life had improved by them being pleased away from home.

Gil, do you think you would feel the same if you were doing something the woman got at home (though maybe not as much as she'd like), or just adding a little vanilla excitement to her life?

 

[Private_Label]

Normally I would answer thisby saying "No." I would not appreciate someone seeing my guy behind my back, and would not like to be the interloper if the positions were reversed.

That being said, I have a friend that before he was involved with his current SO, we had a cyber relationship that has come and gone over the last few years. It's the reason I have discovered the submissive streak that was hiding under my dominant personality. I have very, very strong feelings for him. At this point, he's in charge of the relationship. If he wants to back off a bit, and tells me, I back off. If he wants to call me or IM or e-mail me for a shared fantasy, I will participate.

I don't completely understand it myself, but there it is. If it isn't love, then whatever it IS will do. I have never felt anything as intense as it. Lord help me if this is just lust; if there is something stronger out there waiting for me, I will probably enter a state of permanent bliss when it happens. I'm darn close to that now.

 

[Gil_T2]

Gil, do you think you would feel the same if you were doing something the woman got at home (though maybe not as much as she'd like), or just adding a little vanilla excitement to her life?

What we had was MASTER/subplay I didn't have any guilt with it at all.If they were getting what they wanted at home they wouldn't have been with me.I was single.

 

[wicked woman]

I'm thinking I'm strange as I have never cheated on a partner although at different times & partners I/we had had sex with others but in same room situations that said I have had several married/ attached ladies I have had sexual times with with no guilt at all as what we were doing was not what the lady got at home but was what she wanted so I have no guilt at all over this & several did comment that their home life had improved by them being pleased away from home.

I agree Gil...I've never cheated in one of my relationships where it was agreed we'd be monogamous. I'm not meaning to suggest that all committed relationships need to be monogamous...trust me that's not what I mean...of course it's easier if you know you don't want to be monogamous and can 'negotiate' that with your SO at the beginning.

I also don't mean to sound saintly that just because I think people should be honest within their relationships, that I wouldn't be part of a sexual relationship with someone in a committed relationship (that didn't tell their SO)...I have and would again.

But if you asked me, I'd prefer they were able to tell their SO...I just don't make my decisions about my actions based on their relationship with their SO. I truly believe I didn't make that commitment so I'm not responsible for it...they are. It's their decision to honour it or not. My choice is that they can honour their commitment and still have room for me.

 

[wicked woman]

Good thoughts, and you somehow phrased that in a way that really made sense to me all of a sudden. Previously, I didn't quite see how it was possible, but when I think about it, other people in my life haven't really impacted how I act in my marriage, so why wouldn't that be the same with most people?

Sometimes it just takes an open mind and a different way of putting it to 'connect'.

What you say is part of what I mean...if someone is in a committed monogamous relationship I think they are the one responsible for their actions. If someone comes on to them or is tempting...it's their decision to stay monogamous or not. I know people that have done both.

Having said all this...I don't think I will choose to be monogamous in my future relationships...but we'll have this discussion BEFORE...and hope they are like minded.