children and public displays of BDSM

[Etoile]

I'm trying to picture just why a butch lesbian not in a dress and not shaved would garner undue attention unless she was doing something that presented herself in a way that sort of screamed I'm different, look at me.

Not to jump on Netz's toes, but being a butch woman automatically says "I'm different" - it's the same for effeminate men. People do see them as outside the norm, and they do get stared at. Pretty much just being butch is all it really takes.

 

[callinectes]

Not to jump on Netz's toes, but being a butch woman automatically says "I'm different" - it's the same for effeminate men. People do see them as outside the norm, and they do get stared at. Pretty much just being butch is all it really takes.

In my neck of the woods (semi-rural Deep South with a mixture of economic classes) the butch lesbian and the corset would hardly draw a second look. The leash? Oh my, people would stare and comment. I have no doubt about it.

 

[FurryFury]

Not to jump on Netz's toes, but being a butch woman automatically says "I'm different" - it's the same for effeminate men. People do see them as outside the norm, and they do get stared at. Pretty much just being butch is all it really takes.

Well perhaps I'm just not real familiar with the "outside" signs of this?

Fury

 

[catalina_francisco]

Not to jump on Netz's toes, but being a butch woman automatically says "I'm different" - it's the same for effeminate men. People do see them as outside the norm, and they do get stared at. Pretty much just being butch is all it really takes.

I think it often depends on where you are as I have not noticed it happening this way in Oz or here. Here I would expect it to be the case it is not noticed, but Oz (well where I was anyway) is not quite as open minded as the culture here and yet it was never a regular issue for any of the friends I had who fitted these roles, even the 6'6 butch friend I had who wore full leather 95% of the time. Then when you think about it, Oz had a very high rating soap on night time TV in the early '70's (started 1972 I think) which among other things featured gay characters and full nudity, so I guess the nation has sort of been seeing it as normal for a long time now. There are those who will see it as a problem, but then those people usually see a lot of things as problems which others think nothing of.

Catalina

 

[eastern sun]

protecting the children ?

Isn't it true that people who are living the BDSM lifestyle are members of a subculture, prone to all the social dynamics of any minority group?

There will be those who appear "vanilla" in all aspects of their life but the privacy of their sexual practices. There will be others who identify through their clothing and props with one group or another. There will be those who are in rebellion against the majority, putting their differentness out on the street. There will be BDSM pride.

Lately, I've been fascinated by the role the internet has played in the growth of the BDSM subculture - undoubtably drawing in a number of people who would otherwise have been unable to identify as part of the scene. Whereas before it appeared that membership in this group was primarily arrived at through participation in certain activities, with certain rites of initiation and learned codes (after all trust is a huge issue in this culture) - now, we can make our own kink, set our own rules, and do it all anonymously in the privacy of our own minds.

But at the same time as more people identify with it, the subculture is becoming more and more visible. (You can't read the NY Post these days without reading about someone who's being charged with a sex-related crime around BDSM.)

And as the culture becomes more visible, children will learn about it.

Will it be made illegal? Where is it illegal already?

 

[Etoile]

I think it often depends on where you are as I have not noticed it happening this way in Oz or here. Here I would expect it to be the case it is not noticed, but Oz (well where I was anyway) is not quite as open minded as the culture here and yet it was never a regular issue for any of the friends I had who fitted these roles, even the 6'6 butch friend I had who wore full leather 95% of the time. Then when you think about it, Oz had a very high rating soap on night time TV in the early '70's (started 1972 I think) which among other things featured gay characters and full nudity, so I guess the nation has sort of been seeing it as normal for a long time now. There are those who will see it as a problem, but then those people usually see a lot of things as problems which others think nothing of.

Catalina

The Netherlands is (are?) definitely far more advanced than the United States on this front. After all, you have got gay marriage!

I will let Netzach chime in with her opinions on how a butch woman is treated differently...

 

[FurryFury]

All I know is that when I was in high school the butch females were not anyone I wanted to mess with but then I didn't really want to mess with anyone.

I got picked on a great deal myself so I wasn't there to dish it out to anyone. Hell I was in theater. So I hung out with some of the femme dudes and butch females.

It was after high school that I got a real surprise. A lot of my buds turned out to be gay and it wasn't usually the ones I suspected. It didn't matter to me but it did surprise.

That's why I always think we simply can't know another person by appearances alone. It's also why I think there are things we can do to fit in more and attract less negative attention, because I did figure out how to blend eventually.

Fury

 

[Netzach]

I don't really have a lot to say. You're either feeling it or you're not. Just because I personally might not *notice* that people in a different camp than I'm in are being treated differently doesn't make me more of an authority on that - I have less at stake.

I presented very much butch, about as butch as I could get through my mid-late 20's. There are subtle but significant differences.

That is really the question - should one have to blend in order to not attract negative attention?

I think the answer is, to a large extent, no. I'm not saying go ahead, be a total dick, but I also don't think that everyone in the public sphere needs to be beholden to someone's five year old's needs.

That's not how I'd like to exist. I'm really disgusted by the gays who hold flaming queens and drags and leather people at arms length - what happens to those really obvious sorts is indicative of what happens to all of us. I don't personally *want* to walk around on a leash or with anyone on a leash, but I don't particularly want to hold someone at arms length just because they *might* in certain contexts. I don't see how the world is fucked up because my husband saw two guys standing in line at the Field Museum planetarium with hands in each others pockets, in full leather, one flagging red right one red left, or someone's kid might have seen it either. They'll cope, it's awkward, it might be inappropriate, it might be tacky but life will go on. Nobody was propositioning them.

 

[shy slave]

Will it be made illegal? Where is it illegal already?

In the UK many aspects of BDSM are illegal.

In UK law it is not possible to consent to be hurt, therefore all the written contracts, verbal agreements add up to nothing.

It puts PYLs in a difficult position regardless of whether it is out in the open or at a private party/venue.
As soon as it becomes physical the PYL is in danger of being reported by someone and serving prison time.
It has, and continues to, happen.

Imagine a situation where a pyl agrees to a play session because they want to become the sub of that PYL. When it stops at play and the relationship does not develop, they can head to the police and cite abuse.

Other public order laws could be used if someone was seen to be on a collar and lead in a public place. I am not aware of court cases but I have heard of people being asked to keep those activities away from the public arena.

Personally, taking children out of this discussion; I don't want to see people paraded in this way. It took me a number of years to discover and come to terms with my submission. Had I seen such displays I would never have explored further. Instead I would have found a nice safe vanilla man and hide my inner feelings away, terrified I would turn into someone who wanted treated publicly in such a way.

 

[Netzach]

Wow, the street is obviously a powerful place.

Had I not seen live people parading themselves around in obviousness I probably never would have found the balls to find the community at all. It would have been something very abstract, case studies and scary people on the internet, not "real" to me. I am really glad a lot of people didn't give a rat's ass if they warped my 11 year old mind.

 

[intothewoods]

Had I seen such displays I would never have explored further. Instead I would have found a nice safe vanilla man and hide my inner feelings away, terrified I would turn into someone who wanted treated publicly in such a way.

Hmmm, really? You would be terrified, I'm sure, but don't you think you would have been intrigued at the same time?

At any rate, I see that there is a certain tastelessness to dressing up or parading around just to be shocking. On the other hand, seeing all different kinds of people lets kids know that it's okay to be different. Because we actually are all different in some way, and accepting yourself, warts and all, is probably the hardest part of becoming your own person.

And now please join me for a rousing chorus of kumbaya.

 

[JMohegan]

If not for the constant diligence of my mother, I have no doubt that my sister would have grown up to be a busybody beyond belief. Point, stare, comment, question. Not long after my sister developed the capacity for speaking in complete sentences, this became her M.O.

"Ewwwww! He's picking his nose!"

Spitting out my sister's full name with feeling, my mother exclaimed: "__ __ __! It is never acceptable to point and stare."

"But it's making me want to throw uuuuuuuup!"

"Then I suggest you stop looking at that child. Whose behavior is your responsibility, and your business?"

"Mine, but...."

"No buts. Yours and yours only. And this conversation is over."



I remember the day we saw a morbidly obese woman for the very first time. (It was the 60's, and Americans as a whole were much smaller.) By this time, my sister (tired of losing desert privileges after dinner) had learned to stop pointing and staring. But she was still quick with the comments and questions.

My sister wanted to go ask the woman how she "got so fat", a request that my mother of course denied. My sister then pressed my mother for information. After receiving a brief summary of the relationship between food and weight, my sister offered to "go tell the lady, so she'll know." My mother explained that the woman, in all likelihood, already did know and was making a choice that was her right to make as an adult. She then ended the conversation with the familiar exchange.

"Whose behavior is your responsibility, and your business?"

"Mine," my sister said with a defeated sigh.

"That's correct. And this conversation is over."

That is really the question - should one have to blend in order to not attract negative attention?

I think the answer is, to a large extent, no. I'm not saying go ahead, be a total dick, but I also don't think that everyone in the public sphere needs to be beholden to someone's five year old's needs.

That's not how I'd like to exist. I'm really disgusted by the gays who hold flaming queens and drags and leather people at arms length - what happens to those really obvious sorts is indicative of what happens to all of us. I don't personally *want* to walk around on a leash or with anyone on a leash, but I don't particularly want to hold someone at arms length just because they *might* in certain contexts. I don't see how the world is fucked up because my husband saw two guys standing in line at the Field Museum planetarium with hands in each others pockets, in full leather, one flagging red right one red left, or someone's kid might have seen it either. They'll cope, it's awkward, it might be inappropriate, it might be tacky but life will go on. Nobody was propositioning them.

I agree with all of this, especially the comment that "what happens to those really obvious sorts is indicative of what happens to all of us."

The problem I see is not that there are "flaming queens and drags and leather people" wandering around, but rather that not enough parents are teaching their children to mind their own business and knock off the judgmental approach when observing differences in the appearance of human beings.

My sister did not grow up and become obese. But neither did she grow up to be a snotty bitch who mocked and spurned "fat chicks" (though many other high school & college girls, unfortunately, did).

Tolerance and acceptance do not seem to be innate traits in many human beings. For some, these attributes have to be taught.

 

[marieR19]

They'll cope, it's awkward, it might be inappropriate, it might be tacky but life will go on. Nobody was propositioning them.

Very well said. I agree completely. Not just with this but with everything you said in that post.

I think it's strange (stupid, interesting, whatever) that people who engage in BDSM are, in fact, a minority, and yet we are signaled out so often in so many different ways. And I had this whole train of thought going and I just totally lost it. *swears*


Heather

 

[Kailey_86]

i was looking around myspace and i found this video. i wasn't looking for it but it fits this thread perfectly.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=2013541683

 

[Etoile]

i was looking around myspace and i found this video. i wasn't looking for it but it fits this thread perfectly.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=2013541683

It looks more like something the Jackass kids would do, IMHO. Which is being shocking to get laughs from the audience, rather than being shocking to "educate" the populace or because it's "who they are." (With the possible exception of Chris Pontius, who really does enjoy wandering around in a thong.)

 

[A Desert Rose]

I agree with Etoile and go farther to state it's a pretty stupid video. But aside from the guy walking around in a goofy almost-costume, I especially dislike the apples with razor blades idea for Halloween treats... how utterly sick.

I believe, as a parent, that razor blades in apples would be more of a nightmare than my children seeing some guy almost dressed up in that goofy stuff.

 

[Kailey_86]

I agree with Etoile and go farther to state it's a pretty stupid video. But aside from the guy walking around in a goofy almost-costume, I especially dislike the apples with razor blades idea for Halloween treats... how utterly sick.

I believe, as a parent, that razor blades in apples would be more of a nightmare than my children seeing some guy almost dressed up in that goofy stuff.

i completely agree with both of you. i was disgusted by the razor blades thing as well. i just thought i would throw it in here because it does have to do with someone wearing BDSM-type stuff out in public.

 

[Etoile]

i completely agree with both of you. i was disgusted by the razor blades thing as well. i just thought i would throw it in here because it does have to do with someone wearing BDSM-type stuff out in public.

I must not have seen the film too clearly. It looked to me like he was wearing a thong and a mask. What BDSM-type stuff did you see there, or is it just the public near-nudity?

 

[A Desert Rose]

I've seen people at the pool and the beach dressed as scantily or moreso than this, as did my children when they were little.

It was never a big deal to any of us. It has never been appropriate attire for me or for their dad and we were/are their major role models. It has never been appropriate for my kids. They don't dress this way. It would be hard to be a success at teaching school or managing a golf course or selling real estate (which is what my kids currently aspire to do) dressed like this... at any time.

The important point here is who their significant role models are and how those role models behave; not strangers they see in public.

It has no impact on me, or I'm sure my children, what other people find appropriate dress and behavior.

And believe me, in Las Vegas we've seen it all. ;-)

 

[Kailey_86]

I must not have seen the film too clearly. It looked to me like he was wearing a thong and a mask. What BDSM-type stuff did you see there, or is it just the public near-nudity?

Erm...yeah...near nudity it public. i guess i associate the mask and leather thong with BDSM.

 

[Etoile]

Erm...yeah...near nudity it public. i guess i associate the mask and leather thong with BDSM.

Heh, I couldn't tell it was leather, you have good eyes! It looked more like a ski mask to me, but I suppose it could have been a sensory deprivation hood? I agree with you that near nudity in public is a similar issue to what we have been discussing, at least in the sense of potential effect on the public. I don't think they are quite the same, though, and in terms of motivation I would say that video is quite different from what we are discussing here. It's a valid addition to the discussion, but I wouldn't say it fit the thread perfectly.