children and public displays of BDSM

[Blushing Bottom]

Yes I must agree with Preggo, Have we forgotten Matthew Shepard so quickly. Our society is narrow minded and bigoted and whether or not we like it one of our duties as parents is to teach our children to become part of that social order.

But at the same time we MUST also teach them that narrow minded bigotry is wrong and that they can make a difference regarding change. I grew up a rebel in the 60's and believe you me protested aloud about much that was wrong in the world. Everything from Viet Nam to Pro Choice but as I grew older I learned that we can only move just so far and just so fast with change when it comes to the thousands of years of ingrained ideas which our society lives by. We need teach the children to never falter in their attempts to effect change but at the same time to live within the social order of the day.

Moral order is in place for a reason but unfortunately there were those who saw it as a way to harness power and use it to their advantage. Without moral order we would still be cannibals. Bad enough we still make war on one another.

It has always been my humble opinion that all should be allowed to express themselves as they see fit so long as no one is left maimed or bleeding. So until society can lift the yoke placed on them by narrow-minded ancestors who used moral order and laws protect their holdings we must adhere to the rules while working toward changing them.

I'll shut up now.

d

OMG...are you fucking kidding me? Given the current political/social climate in this society there are many groups of people that "put up a fuss" when they see two women or men kissing. There is a whole group of "Christians" that actively protest the funerals of gay men and women in the Mid-west. Yeah, let me go kiss my girlfriend in the middle of the "Bible belt" and you tell me what a fuss people won't be making.

I don't give a rat's ass what anyone wears out in public. Means nothing to me. Handling my sons and their reaction is my responsibility, not anyone else's. However if you or anyone else think homosexuals are actually fully accepted in this society you are delusional. When we stop worrying about horseshit like if the girl behind us in line is wearing a collar and cuffs, or is standing with her butch female lover, is when we'll actually be moving towards equality for all.

 

[intothewoods]

well again, sorry, i'm not going to explain any type of sexuality to my 5 year old. and it's really hard for me to believe there are that many 'perfect' children out there in the world who never question their parents answers to questions.

on another note, and this is not directed at inthewoods it's just an observation, it seems those without kids are the ones saying these public displays of BDSM are ok in front of kids and shouldn't be an issue, while those with kids are in agreement that it's 'tacky' and not 'ok' so to speak...very interesting thread this has turned out to be....

First of all, I am in the camp that said I wouldn't make it an issue, and I do have kids.

Second, I'm not suggesting you discuss sex with your 5 year old. I'm the one who said, set limits! Although kids younger than 5 are certainly curious about body parts and bodily functions, and I would put that under the umbrella of discussing sexuality, in the sense that if you (general you) handle it badly, you run the risk of setting up some serious hang ups.

Tacky? Uh, well, I wouldn't do it! But I'm just saying, I'm not worried about it harming my child in anyway. Frankly, it bothers me more that my child might see violence, and surely will see poverty. Not that I want to shield it from him - but really, the word is a cruel place sometimes, and mommy can't make it all better, despite our best intentionts.

 

[intothewoods]

LOL well my 5 year old WOULDN'T understand why that lady is wearing a collar with a man holding the leash..no matter what explanation i gave him, and when i said 'because they are playing' he'd say..well what are they playing mommy? and on and on and on...and if i said drop it, he'd say..why mommy?? 'because i said so' 'but WHY mommy' etc...that's my point

Of course he wouldn't understand, but that doesn't mean I as the parent say, you wouldn't understand little kid, now run along.

If he really pushed me, I would explain in a way that was age appropriate. Again, if it were me, I'd say I have no idea why that lady is on a leash. Ask me 8 million times. The answer is the same, I don't know.

With the play explanation, I'd just say, well, why do you enjoy playing with your kitchen? It's pretend! Guess what? I'm smarter than my kid - for NOW!

 

[catalina_francisco]

I'm with you. My kids are 1 and 3, and they are around some weird things once in awhile. I will teach tolerance by example, and hopefully they can pass that along... the world needs more of it for sure.

True in part, but my problem is when someone else decides to set themselves up as the example because IME they usually lack the maturity and often the adequate skills and knowledge to do so, thus their position of reasoning it is their right to do so. What I have also noticed is that most are assuming that the adults who are the parents of these children who witness the BDSM kink of those who think they are entitled to expose them to it, may not even know what BDSM is, that it exists, and that what they and their child are being subjected to is BDSM so how do they then provide an appropriate explanation, let alone age appropriate? Just take a look at how many on this board alone have said they were totally unaware of its existance until in their 30's, 40's, 50's. And no, don't think that is more reason for some to strut their kink in the interests of educating the world.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

Notice how beautiful and economic and sleek and mod a design. Haha.

LOL, F's biggest problem was when I was taking this pic there was a guy on the other side using it...hey, I didn't know, he must have been short, and I didn't photograph him though many wouldn't have a problem if I had!

Catalina

 

[FurryFury]

I agree with CutieMouse that we shouldn't assume what other people are or what their knowledge base is. You know what they say about assuming.

We shouldn't automatically have disdain for people at all. I know it's part of being human to find something better about ourselves than other people but it's still not really that healthy, useful or attractive a human quality IMO.

I also agree that in general one shouldn't tell kids they are too young to know things and just shut them down. At times I've done that sort of thing, but only rarely.

My kids and I can talk about anything now. I'm happy we are at this point in life. It surprises me how comfortable I can be talking about sex with them when they ask these days. If I'd had to guess I'd have said this would not be possible.

Each of them got the full sex details and condom practice at age eight when I judged them able to keep such info to themselves. They also got a book about their bodies and sex. At that time they were told they could come to either of us anytime they had questions.

Now at 16 and nearly 14, they know where the condoms are kept in the house. We can discuss sex pretty easily. It's taken practice for me to stay calm and not draw back from the subject automatically. Practice has lead me to be more like I wanted to be for my kids.

In the meantime, on other subjects, they have learned how to research online or at the library, which we frequent, just about anything they are interested in. I read the other day that most teens know things like how to play games, chat or go to myspace but are clueless about online research. That blew my mind. It's not a difficult thing to do so wtf?

Fury

 

[Netzach]

First of all, I am in the camp that said I wouldn't make it an issue, and I do have kids.

Second, I'm not suggesting you discuss sex with your 5 year old. I'm the one who said, set limits! Although kids younger than 5 are certainly curious about body parts and bodily functions, and I would put that under the umbrella of discussing sexuality, in the sense that if you (general you) handle it badly, you run the risk of setting up some serious hang ups.

Tacky? Uh, well, I wouldn't do it! But I'm just saying, I'm not worried about it harming my child in anyway. Frankly, it bothers me more that my child might see violence, and surely will see poverty. Not that I want to shield it from him - but really, the word is a cruel place sometimes, and mommy can't make it all better, despite our best intentionts.

You sound like a cool parent.

The idea that only the people who reproduce should set the cultural agenda for everyone is completely appalling to me. There is a big bad adult world out there, I'm not telling anyone HOW they have to navigate it, but I'm definitely fine with being a part of it. If I had kids I would live my life very differently. I don't think kids and a lot of things are remotely compatible - I find it hysterical that the same people who lead a D/s lifestyle at HOME are worried about weirdness in the street, not things like "am I subtly setting an agenda for my daughters? My sons?" I know too many couples in my 3D SM world with completely off the hook insane and unhappy kids who are happy to hold themselves up as picture perfect healthy functioning M/s couples who live together and do the dynamic all the time, in front of the kids, etc.

Does the M/s relationship necessarily fuck the kids up inherently? No - I don't think it does. But why such a repeated pattern? Why do I keep seeing it and seeing it and it's like the elephant in the room and no one ever asks the question?

I actually like other people's kids and used to teach, but found this completely incompatible with my er, other interests and other employment history. If the truth about me ever came out I'd be registering as a sexual offender, which is really too bad, because I wasn't bad with a small gaggle of 9 year olds and some paintbrushes.

 

[Netzach]

I agree with CutieMouse that we shouldn't assume what other people are or what their knowledge base is. You know what they say about assuming.

We shouldn't automatically have disdain for people at all. I know it's part of being human to find something better about ourselves than other people but it's still not really that healthy, useful or attractive a human quality IMO.

Yeah, well, when you actually have to navigate a daily existence among people who view you disdainfully as a freak of nature, the high road gets a little low on oxygen.

 

[Netzach]

True in part, but my problem is when someone else decides to set themselves up as the example because IME they usually lack the maturity and often the adequate skills and knowledge to do so, thus their position of reasoning it is their right to do so. What I have also noticed is that most are assuming that the adults who are the parents of these children who witness the BDSM kink of those who think they are entitled to expose them to it, may not even know what BDSM is, that it exists, and that what they and their child are being subjected to is BDSM so how do they then provide an appropriate explanation, let alone age appropriate? Just take a look at how many on this board alone have said they were totally unaware of its existance until in their 30's, 40's, 50's. And no, don't think that is more reason for some to strut their kink in the interests of educating the world.

Catalina

What if you aren't educating anyone and simply don't care? Like your pissing man.

I think any assumptions about motivation, maturity, agenda, etc. are pretty spurious when I just see someone on the street. I know a big teddy bear of a hippie guy with a scary high IQ and advanced degrees who would get home safe after a late bar night by flailing around and doing the "crazy" act through his rather intimidating 'hood. If you saw him in that moment, you'd have a host of completely inaccurate assumptions about him. He had the right look, hairy, bedraggled, and intense-eyed, kind of like Jack Black. Me trying to do this I'd just look like a fool.

However I agree with a lot of what you and serijules brought up - the fact that *in general* the public has no understanding of SM outside the construct of abuse or violence, not sense of the motivations under the surface picture. I know I didn't when I watched the leatherpeople strut by on occasion - I was 15 and I remember thinking "why would you want to beat on each other?" but at the same time being really drawn in somehow. I can't say that I'm sorry I eventually found out why you *would* want to beat on someone, but I don't think exposure = instant understanding in this case. We'd me much better off writing and talking to people if we want to be understood.

Which is why I do both, and try to articulate the issue of humiliation play especially because it's near and dear to me and totally easy to misinterpret or not get. AND I walk around and make H act like a fool in bars at times, where there are not going to be children and adults are already acting like dicks. Or occasionally make him go buy enemas, condoms, gravy and lipstick at the grocery store, so shoot me.

I'm not going to go out of my way to sexually embarrass other people, but to say the world is inherently off limits for my exploration and the most uptight and most restrictive cultural norms are the RIGHT ones makes no sense to me. Public humiliation IS my kink, I am being more than thoughtful in terms of what might happen and who might be around. Frankly it's one of the reasons H and I meet up in NYC as often as we do - there are things I won't do here and there are things that will automatically make everyone assume it's a new terrorist threat in DC if a man gets on his knees in the street.

 

[callinectes]

- I find it hysterical that the same people who lead a D/s lifestyle at HOME are worried about weirdness in the street, not things like "am I subtly setting an agenda for my daughters? My sons?"
QUOTE]

Which is why my child has only met him once....when we bumped into him at Home Depot on a Saturday afternoon. For all she knew he was just another friend from around town.

 

[Netzach]

- I find it hysterical that the same people who lead a D/s lifestyle at HOME are worried about weirdness in the street, not things like "am I subtly setting an agenda for my daughters? My sons?"
QUOTE]

Which is why my child has only met him once....when we bumped into him at Home Depot on a Saturday afternoon. For all she knew he was just another friend from around town.

Everyone has to navigate this one how they think best, I don't envy you. My slave has adult kids (his youngest is college bound and 17 so more or less) and I'm not there and I haven't met them yet. I'm sure I eventually will, but I'm not going to be asserting my ownership at that moment. They know he's bi, they're ok. I don't have to pick my way through this to any great extent - but I DO appreciate people who are doing as you are and really really thinking it through, not just assuming it's gonna be fiiiine because it's what mommy or daddy want out of life.

 

[graceanne]

. . . Frankly, it bothers me more that my child . . . surely will see poverty. Not that I want to shield it from him - but really, the word is a cruel place sometimes, and mommy can't make it all better, despite our best intentionts.

A hijack, but it bothers me more that my children might never see poverty. Not knowing that others are suffering is a good way to become what we hate the most. I find it simply amazing that the ones who look down on the poor are the ones who've never been poor. When my oldest was a baby I'd strap her to my chest and we'd help out in a homeless shelter. When she started walking we stopped, cause she's entirely too trusting, but I'm in the process of trying to started again. She's 8, and old enough to know not to leave with a stranger. I wish I had more time, cause I'd also like my children to be exposed to the elderly. It's important to know that not everyone is as happy as they are, and it's our job to give aid, or in some cases just an ear to listen and a heart to hear.

 

[skittles_lm]

And no, don't think that is more reason for some to strut their kink in the interests of educating the world.

Catalina

I really liked this line... and I get the point. I don't strut my kink either, at least not in a way that is noticable to anyone outside the scene. No one else knows what those little metal loops are for, you know? These days they are as common as those cheesy little 'slave chains' Hot Topic used to sell 10 years ago.
There is a huge difference between educating and flaunting. People who are shocked and scared, or offended, are not going to learn anything useful.

 

[intothewoods]

A hijack, but it bothers me more that my children might never see poverty. Not knowing that others are suffering is a good way to become what we hate the most. I find it simply amazing that the ones who look down on the poor are the ones who've never been poor. When my oldest was a baby I'd strap her to my chest and we'd help out in a homeless shelter. When she started walking we stopped, cause she's entirely too trusting, but I'm in the process of trying to started again. She's 8, and old enough to know not to leave with a stranger. I wish I had more time, cause I'd also like my children to be exposed to the elderly. It's important to know that not everyone is as happy as they are, and it's our job to give aid, or in some cases just an ear to listen and a heart to hear.

Oh yes, I agree. By "bothers me more" I mean that the world can be a very cruel place. And of course, of course, my children should know that. But there is something sad about the fact that my happy little kid will not always be so innocently happy. Does that make sense? It's not that I would ever coddle him, that would be worse, it's just mixed feelings over that end of innocence.

 

[graceanne]

Oh yes, I agree. By "bothers me more" I mean that the world can be a very cruel place. And of course, of course, my children should know that. But there is something sad about the fact that my happy little kid will not always be so innocently happy. Does that make sense? It's not that I would ever coddle him, that would be worse, it's just mixed feelings over that end of innocence.

Yeah, I hear that. My baby just turned 4. I'm in denial. My sister keeps saying he's not a toddler anymore, till I threw something at her and told her not to burst my bubble. lol

 

[intothewoods]

You sound like a cool parent.

Thanks, I do enjoy it, even as I also enjoy having my own interests, and my own identity apart from being mommy.

I don't think kids and a lot of things are remotely compatible - I find it hysterical that the same people who lead a D/s lifestyle at HOME are worried about weirdness in the street, not things like "am I subtly setting an agenda for my daughters? My sons?"

Hellll yes!!! Yeah, it is kind of funny, because to me a person walking down the street doing any of number of kinky freaky things is handled pretty easily. I spend a lot more time thinking about how I will live as a submissive and be a mom.

I want to present a healthy open view of sex. So I wouldn't present myself as a prude. On the other hand, as I've said, I'm a big one for setting limits. My bedroom isn't public property. There are rules and my privacy is respected to an age-appropriate degree (obviously, expectations for a six month old are different than for a two year old, a three year old or a six year old). Also, I respect my children's privacy.

I know too many couples in my 3D SM world with completely off the hook insane and unhappy kids who are happy to hold themselves up as picture perfect healthy functioning M/s couples who live together and do the dynamic all the time, in front of the kids, etc.

Does the M/s relationship necessarily fuck the kids up inherently? No - I don't think it does. But why such a repeated pattern? Why do I keep seeing it and seeing it and it's like the elephant in the room and no one ever asks the question?

Interesting. As far as I know, my parents weren't into it. If it was going on behind closed doors, it wasn't shared with me! I don't know why I am the way I am.

I actually like other people's kids and used to teach, but found this completely incompatible with my er, other interests and other employment history. If the truth about me ever came out I'd be registering as a sexual offender, which is really too bad, because I wasn't bad with a small gaggle of 9 year olds and some paintbrushes.

Well, if it was consensual, you'd have to register as a sex offender? Or are you kidding?

But yeah, overall, I think to be safe these days, you can't be "out" on the 'net about your sexuality and teach or do anything with kids.

I absolutely would not feel comfortable using the term Master in front of my children. Sexuality is just so damn complicated and layered. I can't explain to a 15 year old that I am a feminist, and a strong woman, and yet I want all that I want. Not to mention how horrible it is to imagine your parent having sex anyway. Ew!

 

[Penalt]

Okay, I will comment on a situation I had a chance to observe....


Mamid and I were picking up a young couple that we knew from the ferries here in southern British Columbia. These are large car ferries that take about 90 minutes to cross the water to their destination (www.bcferries.com) and carry a lot people. We watching people coming down the passenger ramp when we spotted the couple walking towards us. He was in front. In one hand he held their bags and the other hand held a chain leash. The leash went back about 3 feet where it clipped to the police style handcuffs that clasped around her wrists. The leash then went up from there where it was attached to her leather collar which was snugged fairly tightly around her throat as the chain from collar to cuffs held her wrists at waist height.

We took this in stride as they were quite young and one expects public displays from young couples, although not usually like this. People did notice them and I saw at least a few WTF? looks and at least a child or two asking, "Mommy? What's that lady wearing?" But no scowls from anyone, no "How dare you!"'s either. We loaded up and headed out. During the ride we learned that she had been in those chains for the past two hours at least and was not going to be released until after we arrived. Other than a few long looks no one had commented on her attire in the least during the entire ferry ride.

Just something from my history. It does deserve mentioning that this was before Mamid and I had children and we do try to prevent our children from witnessing any BDSM display's in front of them. Mainly because they are too young and we do not want to influence how they choose to express their sexuality when they come of age. But you can be sure that our "birds and bees" chat is going to involve 'safe, sane, consensual'.

 

[FurryFury]

Yeah, well, when you actually have to navigate a daily existence among people who view you disdainfully as a freak of nature, the high road gets a little low on oxygen.

Maybe I missed something but just why would people on a daily basis view you disdainfully as a freak of nature?

If that is the case wasn't there a choice you made sometime back there, for this "freak" image to be so clear, to others just walking down the street?

I dunno. I'm confused.

Fury

 

[Netzach]

Thanks, I do enjoy it, even as I also enjoy having my own interests, and my own identity apart from being mommy.



Hellll yes!!! Yeah, it is kind of funny, because to me a person walking down the street doing any of number of kinky freaky things is handled pretty easily. I spend a lot more time thinking about how I will live as a submissive and be a mom.

I want to present a healthy open view of sex. So I wouldn't present myself as a prude. On the other hand, as I've said, I'm a big one for setting limits. My bedroom isn't public property. There are rules and my privacy is respected to an age-appropriate degree (obviously, expectations for a six month old are different than for a two year old, a three year old or a six year old). Also, I respect my children's privacy.



Interesting. As far as I know, my parents weren't into it. If it was going on behind closed doors, it wasn't shared with me! I don't know why I am the way I am.



Well, if it was consensual, you'd have to register as a sex offender? Or are you kidding?

But yeah, overall, I think to be safe these days, you can't be "out" on the 'net about your sexuality and teach or do anything with kids.

I absolutely would not feel comfortable using the term Master in front of my children. Sexuality is just so damn complicated and layered. I can't explain to a 15 year old that I am a feminist, and a strong woman, and yet I want all that I want. Not to mention how horrible it is to imagine your parent having sex anyway. Ew!

I worked as a professional Domme for about 3 years, the hiatus is indefinite and I still work in the sex industry as a phone op. I assume the worst in this world and I choose not to work around kids ever again rather than open myself up to who knows what.

 

[Netzach]

Maybe I missed something but just why would people on a daily basis view you disdainfully as a freak of nature?

If that is the case wasn't there a choice you made sometime back there, for this "freak" image to be so clear, to others just walking down the street?

I dunno. I'm confused.

Fury

Not me personally. People I know. Yes there are choices people make about presenting themselves. Should every butch lesbian shave and put on a dress and go completely against the grain of what makes her feel ok in order not to be street hassled? (I'm going with the experience of ex partners and friends here...not assumptions.)

I do understand that life is full or cost/benefit decisions. I'm not about to go out for a midnight stroll in no panties and my shortest skirt and expect nothing to be said or done to me, "no means no" notwithstanding. But honestly, I think if a person experiences, say, a pattern of harrassment in the midwestern suburbs, they have every right to think that people in the midwestern suburbs are closed-minded dicks, a few exceptions probably littered in the crowd somewhere, but not enough that they'd necessarily pipe up if they saw you being harrassed.

 

[Bandit58]

Ok, this might open a can of worms but, why not, let the dirt fly. i feel strongly about this and i need to vent a bit.

There was a thread on the collarme forum about a slave who's Master wanted to take her out in slave gear (cuffs, waist belt, collar, and leash). People started talking about how they didn't want to be forced to have to explain that to their kids. i think that this is where all the trouble starts. We can't shelter our kids from everything. If we show negativity towards people who are wearing a collar or cuffs, our kids will pick up on that. They will become intolerant and unaccepting. i want my kids to learn acceptance for ALL. If my kids asked why a woman was being led on a leash, i would say that they just like to do that. That fosters the idea of to each their own. i would be telling the truth without going into unnecessary detail.

As for the general public. They might be offended too. Why? They might think that it's purely sexual and these people should keep it in the bedroom. It isn't purely sexual though. If they vanilla group doesn't understand that, that is their problem. Why should i have to hide because people are ignorant?

i'm sorry but intolerance for others really bothers me. Nobody puts up a fuss when they see two lesbian women kissing. Nobody puts up a fight when they see a man wearing a blue mohawk and half a million piercings. These people are just expressing who they are. If a collar, leash, and cuffs represents who you are, why can't you wear it in public like everyone else?

Edited to add: If all of us wore our collars or other related accessories/clothing out in public more often, maybe the general population would eventually become used to it. They wouldn't think twice about it after a while. This has to start somewhere though. People were uncomfortable and offended by homosexuals at first but because they were exposed to it more, they slowly became more comfortable with it. It wasn't so new to them and therefore not as scary.

I just want to comment on the bolded part of kailey's original post. Isn't one of the mantras of our lifestyle Safe, Sane and Consensual? Consensual to me means that all parties have consented to be involved. How is putting yourself "out there" in your BDSM regalia giving others, who may not want to have this pushed into their (and their children's) faces in public, the chance to consent?

I know, for myself, in my vanilla days when my kids were young, I wouldn't have wanted to have to try to explain to them why that man was leading that lady around on a leash. I would probably have made a joke of it, something like they're playing "doggies" or something And I didn't know a whole lot about BDSM in those days myself - and my preconceived ideas were nothing like I now know a loving consensual D/s relationship to be.

 

[intothewoods]

How is putting yourself "out there" in your BDSM regalia giving others, who may not want to have this pushed into their (and their children's) faces in public, the chance to consent?

A person requires your consent for something intimate, but not how they choose to express themselves, in what they wear or what they say. That's the price you pay for living in a country with personal freedoms.

Hey, a racist might not want to consent to someone of another race moving in next door. Guess what? No consent required.

In other words, the scenarios are completely different. A person can't come up to me on the street and slap a collar on my neck and tell me he's my Daddy. That wouldn't be consensual. But if that same person wants to parade around town with his pet, I don't have a right to stop him, though I certainly have the right to vocally object. Ah, the beauty of free speech.

 

[Netzach]

A person requires your consent for something intimate, but not how they choose to express themselves, in what they wear or what they say. That's the price you pay for living in a country with personal freedoms.

Hey, a racist might not want to consent to someone of another race moving in next door. Guess what? No consent required.

In other words, the scenarios are completely different. A person can't come up to me on the street and slap a collar on my neck and tell me he's my Daddy. That wouldn't be consensual. But if that same person wants to parade around town with his pet, I don't have a right to stop him, though I certainly have the right to vocally object. Ah, the beauty of free speech.

Thank you for this swift reality check. I've been offended often, and I've actually lived to tell about it. I shudder to think of life in an offense-free zone.

 

[Etoile]

Thank you for this swift reality check. I've been offended often, and I've actually lived to tell about it. I shudder to think of life in an offense-free zone.

I agree with you, but I think motivation is essential. This ties back to a comment from skittles:

Can you really say that no one needs to be shocked? No one at all? I just feel that some people need their blinders pulled off on occasion. Not necessarily by someone from the lifestyle either, just in general. *shrug* All of this imho of course.

I don't think we should set out to shock people. The motivation needs to be personal because it's who you are, not because of selfish attention-seeking behavior at the expense of others. I may take delight in wearing a corset out in public because of how it shocks people, but I do it because I like corsets, not because I like getting up in people's faces.

I'm fine with doing things that might offend people...but not for the sole purpose of offending them. That just isn't my business.

 

[FurryFury]

Not me personally. People I know. Yes there are choices people make about presenting themselves. Should every butch lesbian shave and put on a dress and go completely against the grain of what makes her feel ok in order not to be street hassled? (I'm going with the experience of ex partners and friends here...not assumptions.)

I do understand that life is full or cost/benefit decisions. I'm not about to go out for a midnight stroll in no panties and my shortest skirt and expect nothing to be said or done to me, "no means no" notwithstanding. But honestly, I think if a person experiences, say, a pattern of harrassment in the midwestern suburbs, they have every right to think that people in the midwestern suburbs are closed-minded dicks, a few exceptions probably littered in the crowd somewhere, but not enough that they'd necessarily pipe up if they saw you being harrassed.

I'm trying to picture just why a butch lesbian not in a dress and not shaved would garner undue attention unless she was doing something that presented herself in a way that sort of screamed I'm different, look at me.

A pattern of harassment however is not okay regardless IMO.

Fury