Disappointments

[zipman]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Great Thread Artful

Zip,...I know exactly what you are referring to. It happens not JUST with the subs. Disappointments are felt on BOTH sides. Sometimes compromise works and things work out to benefit both parties,...and sometimes not.

When each of us are not fulfilled in the boundaries that have been established, is when HONEST communication has to be entered into. This can only be done if EACH of us have been honest in looking within FIRST.

Without our inner truths being exposed, (what we NEED), the relationship will fail. Sometimes,...it just doesn't work out.

That's when our emotions come into play, and often feelings are hurt needlessly by continueing to TRY and FORCE a fit.

Sometimes the two will stay together because of fear and loneliness, lack of knowledge, lack of courage, etc.,...but THEY will be miserable because of the mismatch.

Sometimes a parting of the ways is necessary, one severs the relationship, (hopefully having learned from their experience), and goes on to form their desired relationship with another.

Thanks again for your post Zip. Your posts always cause me to THINK,...to go deep within myself and dig for truths, as have all the posters done on this thread.

I totally agree with you about looking inward. I think honesty starts with ones' self. And from there, it radiates out in ever widening circles.

Thank you for the compliment Artful! And if my posts cause you to think, it is in response to the threads and posts that you make, which stimulate my thinking.

 

[artful]

I need more examples,...

C'mon Dom/mes and subs,...we ALL have disappointments. Please share how YOU handle them. What are they? Did they wreck a relationship? Any advice?

 

[~Dream~]

re"Disappointments

what is VERY disappointing to me as a sub,is to have alot of different frustrationsgoing on at the same time ..

Subs are not to Question their Masters,yet we DO HAVE questions.

Subs are not to be used as DOORMATS ,yet at times we truly FEEL Deeply that our Doms just Dont understand us at all ,which is frustrating as hell.. I wonder how a DOM would feel for instance ,if they were always accused of manipulating things ? well,we will NEVER know that one now,will we? Doms are to NOT be "accused' of anything.Dom's dont tend to get "their mistakes" thrown up in their faces over& over again (oops I FORGOT) they DONT make any.. at least none that we are supposed to keep conciously aware of(put it on the backburner maybe it'll go away syndrome)..
it is Disrespectful of a sub to tell her/his Master to "fuck off",it is HOWEVER NOT disrespectful for a Dom /me to tell their sub that their words are *bullshit*>that in itself ,puzzles me quite alot ,I find BOTH to be discourteous and quite disrespectful.JMHO..

I am allowed freely to post as I wish as long as it is NOT inciting a flame ,gee I hope that goes for THIS post also.. I appreciate the freedoms my Master does so lovingly give unto me,His always struggling to succeed ,but ever faltering ,slave..I really do..
What I do not appreciate and am very Disappointed in is HIS ABILITY to really trust that at times maybe my judgements could possibly be good as His,after all He wont always be around me and at times while we have an online LDR ,it will be "imperative that He DOES trust me,He says HE TRusts Me to obey Him and while i am honoredc by that,I wonder if that alone is enough for me ,or if it should be???

I would also appreciate it if someone could possibly explain to me ,how it is trying to take "control" away from someone when all you are doing as a sub is trying your best To Honor that Master even while they are "offline" or whatever.. If you have already "submitted" for example and your Master is offline or sleepin or whatever,and there IS a decision to be made about something , are you to not be "trusted' to make a good one? or are you simply to keep the attitude "as you wish Master <even when you are NOT here>>>??/ I try to do things as I feel Master would but alas i am not Him ,I am only me ,only the sub ...

 

[artful]

Re: re"Disappointments

what is VERY disappointing to me as a sub,is to have alot of different frustrations going on at the same time ..

So how DO you handle your disappointments Dream? Any examples? Advice? Has it wrecked a relationship?

 

[~Dream~]

they are never reall handled at all

i end up submitting thats all no real answer ..

 

[Charlotte K.]

Disapppointments...oh dear a topic I can't speak on...darn!

Well...somehow it seems that I came into the relationship with out a sense of what should be...it grew at it's own pace and I matured along with it.

This is a good topic but I don't have much to say.

Good job Artful!



~Yes! I am all smiles tonight!~

 

[Ghost's amaris]

Disappointments and how i handle them

I have to say early on the disappointments were far from easy to handle as that this is my first real D/s relationship and really didnt know how to act.

When i would disappoint my Master I would listen to what I did that disappointed him and accepted my punishment. As I knew I deserved it. Then I would broach the subject that i disappointed him with and we would discuss what I did and ways I could change my behavior.

I had alot of problems with my language and using profanity. This is one of his biggest pet peeves.

What would happen when I would use profanity he would say excuse me what did you say and I would repeat it. If i didnt realize what i said he would correct me and say that i really needed to work on that. It helped alot but after a while when I kept making the mistake to often he make me write him an email as this is an LDR/LTR relationship on why it is wrong to use profanity and how it is disrespectful.

I really learned alot from having to think about what I had done and why it was wrong and disrespectful to him. After that email i have hardly ever made the mistake of using that lange again. I have really learned to think before i speak and make sure there isnt a better choice of words to use in expressing my feelings, worries, problems and desires.

Ghost's amaris

 

[~Dream~]

whoo hoo

way to go amaris!! someday I hope to learn from you and be a good lil subbie myself> that was EXCELLENT advice (applauds)

for you cause I can since this is My Master's thread and I dont think He'll mind the hijack at all ,(esp since I AGREED) with ya> x12 !!

 

[~Dream~]

Re: Re: re"Disappointments

So how DO you handle your disappointments Dream? Any examples? Advice? Has it wrecked a relationship?

_______________
I think that our "studio audience here at Lit would really like to know How YOU handle it when Your slave disappoints you Master? I sure know that I would..

as far as wrecking a relationship ? hmm well to me it takes 2 to make it so it would take 2 to break it also,so that's my Honest opinion of that..

 

[Ghost's amaris]

as far as wrecking a relationship ? hmm well to me it takes 2 to make it so it would take 2 to break it also

Dream i agree with that but yet i dont as well. I agree it does take 2 to make a relationship work but to be honest in my opinion it can only take one to break them up. If one is doing all the work to make the relationship happen and the other does ntohing but try to distroy it eventually it will be distroyed and not because they both distroyed it but because the one distroyed it.

That's my opion for what its worth.

way to go amaris!! someday I hope to learn from you and be a good lil subbie myself> that was EXCELLENT advice (applauds)

I appreciate that you feel that way. I really do not see myself as anyone to look upto but if you see other wise in this case thank you.

Ghost's amaris

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: I need more examples,...

I for one like to keep a lot of by business private. This is one area I feel is none of your business.

Eb

C'mon Dom/mes and subs,...we ALL have disappointments. Please share how YOU handle them. What are they? Did they wreck a relationship? Any advice?

 

[artful]

Sis

I for one like to keep a lot of by business private. This is one area I feel is none of your business.

Eb

I respect your desire for privacy in whatever area you choose to not post about. For others,... "Disappointments", and how they handle them, has been very informative to me, (especially as how it might relate to BDSM).

This is simply MY way, of making a friendly bump to my own thread, and I don't mean to "drag" information out of ANYONE, unwilling to post about their "Disappointments".

 

[Ghost's amaris]

Artful,

I fully agree I think it has been very informative for alot of submissives and Dom/me's.

I for one was glad you started this thread Artful.

Ghost's amaris

 

[Desdemona]

I treat disappointments the same whether or not it involves BDSM.

When I am disappointed, I try to step back from the emotional reaction and look at the big picture. I try to figure out if my expectations were unreasonable or if I played some part in what happened. I look at the communication both before and after to see where things went wrong. I analyse it to death from every possible angle I can find. I talk about it to people I trust. Sometimes, I have to cut my losses in the situation. Sometimes, there is a way to work it out.

I have had some disappointments; one was devastating and I'm still trying to figure out how to cope with the lasting effects of it. Today, I had to face the fact that I haven't healed as much as I thought.

 

[artful]

Re: I treat disappointments the same whether or not it involves BDSM.

When I am disappointed, I try to step back from the emotional reaction and look at the big picture. I try to figure out if my expectations were unreasonable or if I played some part in what happened. I look at the communication both before and after to see where things went wrong. I analyse it to death from every possible angle I can find. I talk about it to people I trust. Sometimes, I have to cut my losses in the situation. Sometimes, there is a way to work it out.

I have had some disappointments; one was devastating and I'm still trying to figure out how to cope with the lasting effects of it. Today, I had to face the fact that I haven't healed as much as I thought.

As is often the case, we don't even NOTICE our minor disappointments, until a MAJOR one comes along. THEN,...not only do we have the MAJOR one to deal with,...but ALL the little ones are brought to life also.

Sometimes,...it can overwhelm us. I look back on SOME of my disappointments and say to myself, "How could I have been so stupid? Why didn't I see this EARLIER?" Berating myself over and over for my stupidity, (but it never helps).

In the end,...I try to put it in as a "Lesson Learned",...sometimes I succeed,...sometimes I fail. Needless to say,...I have repeated many lessons before I learned not to make the same mistakes again.

amaris,...thanks for your open support of this thread topic.

 

[Desdemona]

Re: Re: I treat disappointments the same whether or not it involves BDSM.

As is often the case, we don't even NOTICE our minor disappointments, until a MAJOR one comes along. THEN,...not only do we have the MAJOR one to deal with,...but ALL the little ones are brought to life also.

This is especially true if the disappointments are related.

Sometimes,...it can overwhelm us. I look back on SOME of my disappointments and say to myself, "How could I have been so stupid? Why didn't I see this EARLIER?" Berating myself over and over for my stupidity, (but it never helps).

It sure can be hard not to beat yourself up. Hindsight is so much clearer.

In the end,...I try to put it in as a "Lesson Learned",...sometimes I succeed,...sometimes I fail. Needless to say,...I have repeated many lessons before I learned not to make the same mistakes again.

Well, you're in good company Art. Sometimes you want things to not be the way they are so badly, at least that has been my experience. It is very hard to let go of hope.

 

[~Dream~]

Re: Sis

I respect your desire for privacy in whatever area you choose to not post about. For others,... "Disappointments", and how they handle them, has been very informative to me, (especially as how it might relate to BDSM).

This is simply MY way, of making a friendly bump to my own thread, and I don't mean to "drag" information out of ANYONE, unwilling to post about their "Disappointments".

__________________________

Baby? you dont have a "forceful' dragging -type bone in your body. to each His own ,learning by SHARING is a GREAT Stress reliever and Comfort to Most but as for those who care not to do it ,,I respect their right as I know you do Master...

 

[~*sunkyssed_kym*~]

Re: Re: I treat disappointments the same whether or not it involves BDSM.

Sometimes,...it can overwhelm us. I look back on SOME of my disappointments and say to myself, "How could I have been so stupid? Why didn't I see this EARLIER?" Berating myself over and over for my stupidity, (but it never helps).

In the end,...I try to put it in as a "Lesson Learned",...sometimes I succeed,...sometimes I fail. Needless to say,...I have repeated many lessons before I learned not to make the same mistakes again.

Oh boy Art! Can I ever relate to that!! I try to remember that the saying that states: Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. I'm not always successful, but I try anyway.


-kym- Trying to learn from my past mistakes.

 

[~Dream~]

I think admitting to mistakes

takes alot of 'courage also ...

*So nice to see ya MY-Sir's-k wow!! long time ...

 

[UCE]

I know that you are asking about new relationships, but my master treats me the same way now as he did when we were first getting to know each other. So anything I say below about his treatment both applies to now and many years ago (we had an online relationship back in the days when no one had heard of such a thing--I'd get some very suprised reactions when I told people where I'd met my master).

First of all, on disappointments. I think all submissives transitioning from an online relationship to a face-to-face one feel this, some of us more than others. The degree to which you feel disappointment is based on how extensive your unrealistic expectations and fantasies are to begin with. I have a wild creative imagination (I imagine a lot of the women writers on here do) and so I think I had more illusions than most that had to be brought in line with reality. I remember over the years that I have had a lot of trouble with disappointment.

There are two kinds of disappointment, of course. The first is realistic, like when you find out the love of your life is an incurable alcoholic and will ruin your life if you stay with him or her. Noticing this sort of serious character flaw is especially tough on a submissive who wants to see her master as, if not perfect, than nearly so. Usually something this awful is the kind of thing, most people will deny, if they are capable of doing so. If the problem is physical, such as the fact that the master you meet for the first time is a quadraplegic and he never bothered to tell you this before, even though you've known him for months, your disappointment will be immediate and great: not only do you have to suddenly face the fact that a personal life spent with him will be very limited and fraught with difficulty (something he should have eased you into gently if he really cared about you), but you also feel betrayed and lied to. Ommiting something about yourself that is so encompassing and affecting of your future lives together is grossly irresponsible. An equally difficult but more subtle sort of disappoint occurs when the online submissive finds out at some point that her master can't dominate her. I mention this one only because it happens so very often. Once again someone has promised something to a submissive that he or she cannot deliver.

The second kind of disappointment is the unrealistic kind. It's where the submissive begins to see that what you've maybe been telling her all along about yourself (but which she's blithely ignored in the rosy glow of the honeymoon stage of the relationship where your partner seems perfect) is actually true: you do have personality difficulties, you aren't perfect, you're still learning and growing too and don't have all the answers, you aren't magical and can't read her mind, you have to go to work on a day when she wants you to stay in bed with her, etc. These kinds of disappointments are natural to all online relationships going to an offline status. But inexperienced submissives (and even some experienced ones with a new partner) undergo more of them than the average person because they are not only more likely to believe that their dominant partner has superhuman abilities than someone in a vanilla relationship but they also expect more from him. Not that some of these expectations aren't valid: a submissive has to believe and know that a dominant can handle her, control her in ways that may smart but do not harm her over the long run in order to trust him enough to be relaxed and able to give up her own wary self-control. It can take a lot of time for that trust to develop: years sometimes and in the meantime, both partners have to exercise a great deal of patience with the process and tolerance. Other expectations: that he will _always_ be right in regards to her are very unrealistic, especially at the beginning of a relationship when the dominant doesn't know you in detail. All he knows, especially if the relationship has been an online one, is what you've TOLD him about yourself, and that's maybe ten percent of what he eventually needs to know. He'll find out the other 90% through living with you over an extensive period of time. (Don't get me wrong--submisives aren't being dishonest in only giving a dominant ten percent of the full picture; that's about all anybody can do using the limited medium of words. There are many things about yourself that you either do not know, or do not remember, or block for some reason, or that are very difficult to put into words. These things, however, are quite observable if somebody lives with you day in and day out for a long time. They are not necessarily bad things: some are good, some are neutral, too. Just realise that when you enter into a relationship with anybody, you're not usually seeing the full person when you choose to submit or to dominate them, and that you may be in for some big surprises, especially if you've allowed your fantasies about what you want to be true about this person fill in the gaps of knowledge--the blank areas that you really don't know a lot about. The primary submissive fantasy is the Knight in Shining Armor one: he may have black sinister shining armor and he may abduct her rather than await her permission, but he is still seen as rescuing her from a life that she percieves as desperate or boring or mudane or fraught with difficulties and strife or all of the above. When she first realizes that life with you is also going to have difficulties; that you're not always going to see eye to eye, that you may even (gasp!) argue about stuff, she feels perhaps more horrible than the minor disagreement warrents because her unrealistic fantasy of the shining rescurer who takes her to a place where they live "happily ever after" is being breached.

Remember, Artful, really submissive people have a hard time living in this ugly old world, harder than most because their approach to life and their type of personality is so frowned upon except by the few people who understand them: other submissives and dominants. Their desires for dependance, cooperation, loving service and the like are seen as old fashioned, unfeminist, and even anti-american. They've probably been beat up emotionally by their families, by their former vanilla partners, at work, etc. simply for being the person they are whom you love: a submissive individual. Because they've had a hard time just getting the rest of the world to accept them (it never does), they tend to build up fantasies, wishes for a better world or place where they don't have to struggle so much. In large part a dominant can provide that to a submissive: he can give her a very safe place away from the harsh outside world to be herself and to be liked for herself, maybe for the first time in her life. This is a tremendous gift to give someone else, and it often makes a dominant swell with happiness to be able to provide that to someone. But the small stuff: the persoanl disagreements, the personality conflicts, the submissive's initial mistrust of you after the honeymoon phase has worn off and her resistance as a result of that mistrust--that's all going to be a part of daily living. If the submissive has dependants, they will interfere with your lives together, making for less private time that she would ideally like and causing arguments between you about how to raise them. There are hundreds of other examples of the "not perfect" aspects of a relationship, I just wanted to give a few so you knowwhat I mean.

The challenage then, that a dominant faces in dealing with a submissive's disappointment is to provide her with both perspective (getting her to see that the small stuff really IS small compared to the huge horrors of her former life) and encouragement that she can surmount with your help these irritating burstings of her fantasy bubbles. This is especially difficult to do with a submissive who is emotionally inexperienced (i.e. life hasn't roughed her up enough so that she knows all of this instinctively) and also new to bdsm, and therefore unsure of what to expect from it. Nevertheless it is your job to do this. She can't surmount the misconceptions that lead to these sorts of disappointments on her own and she shouldn't have to: that's why she needs a master in the first place. If she could do this sort of shit on her own, she probably wouldn't be submissive!

Another great source of disappointment for the new submissive is when she learns that her obedience is not and cannot ever be perfect. Obedience to another person sounds so easy and so sexy online! It is actually one of the most difficult things that any human can attempt, and it is far from perfectly executed in reality,
particularly in mudane areas but occasionally in the explicitly erotic arena as well, even by people who eroticize it the way submissives do. I don't know where the idea that obeying someone else in all things is easy comes from except, as I mentioned extensively in an earlier message, that online obedience to an online dominant tends to be super easy (and also easy to fake or fool him with--although not all submissives do this). Virtually everything in a D&S relationship is unchallenging online--think of it as BDSM LITE--very little is hard or heavy. The real challenge to obeying your master only comes after you live with him consistently, all the time. A new submissive, however, will imagine that things in real life will be just as smooth and unchallenging as they were online, or she may even fantasize that they will be easier, because she'll be in her master's presence at all times. She doesn't stop to think that if her partner is a genuine dominant, that presence is going to be a demanding one that requires many things from her, at times when she may not want to do them, too.

Not only is doing what she's told hard to do, but often when she does something that she imagines will please her dominant (although she hasn't consulted him on the matter at all) and he clearly isn't overjoyed at it, the submissive will feel sulky and resentful. She will think, "Poor me! I tried so hard and this ungrateful wretch of a dominant just rejects my hard efforts! I can't tell you the number of times this has happened to me, and my master is extremely kind, gentle and understanding. But... He is a dominant and he likes what he likes and has no hesitation about saying so. He sees no reason to continue to let me cook my very best recipie, zucchni casserole, when he is extremely allergic to squash. So, my feelings might get a little "squashed" at his refusal to eat the casserole. But when the alternative is having to call 911 after he passes out on the floor.... The fact that your dominant wasn't pleased by something you did is especially hard for a submissive with a lot of self-pride (the bad ego that zippy talks about) to accept. She starts out with the belief that she is a great submissive and everything she does, therefore, will naturally make her master estactic. But if her oral sex tecnique is physically hurting him, or even just leaves a lot to desired, she should not feel crushed if he gives her instructions on the way he likes to be sucked. Different men like different things, and a technique that made her ex overjoyed might annoy the hell out of a another man. I mention cooking and sex because these are areas where submissives often have ego issues, but this could apply to anything: her looks, her ways of handling her children, her speech habits (that's one I have to deal with constantly--I live with an anal-retentive grammar editor type and I have a bad habit of mispronouncing words, even though I know what they mean!), virtually anything could come under a dominants eye and something he wants to improve on.

Ok enough with talking about the varieties of submissive disappointment, I now want to talk about how you, as a dominant, can deal with it successfully. I'll do that by referring to some of the questions in your post.

"Submissives, how do you handle the disappointments that happen between you and your Dom/me? "

I handle this the way my dominant instructed me to from the very start of our relationship, even when it was casual and not meant as serious or permanent: I bring any such issues directly to him, when they happen, ideally. We then discuss them. It was essential for him to instruct me and then to reinsruct me over and over again to do this, however, as I am a shy and private person and my natural response would have been (and still is, sometimes) to keep these diffculties away from him and to myself. My thinking goes that I should not "bother" him with my awfull mental baggage. The problem with that thinking is that invariably, if I don't "bother" him (bother is in quotes because it's not really a bother to him) with this stuff right then and now when it happens, the issue that I am not speaking to him about will grow and grow inside me to huge proportions and when it finally does come spilling out of me, it will be a lot more serious than it would have been if I had brought it to him immediately, when the issue was still tiny and not hard to deal with.

"In a newly formed relationship, (expected by both Dom/me and sub, to be LONG TERM), how do you handle those disappointments?"

The same way as above. It's an iron-clad rule of his. "Always express _whatever_ is on your mind even though you think it might make me angry or disappointment me or even hurt me. "

"Do you question the decisions of your Dom/me? Is it only in your mind, or do you vocalise them?"

Do I question his decisions? LOL! ALL THE TIME! And I would be breaking his ironclad rule if I didn't mention them so I always vocalize them. Granted, this wasn't easy to do at the beginning. It seemed almost sacriligious to question him. But my master insisted on this, not just for the purpose of keeping the air clear between us, not only to demonstrate to me that I would never be punished for expressing myself freely in any way, but also because he wanted and appreciated my input. He respected me as an intelligent person and sometimes his view on something chaned in response to my input. There are also things, like what a submissive feels inside her head, that a dominant can't know automatically. Dominating someone is a very individualistic and tailor-made activity: there's no set of rules or principles that work well on everybody--so my master had to know how I was responding, as an individual, to his commands to determine whether they were working for me. He needed my feedback because without it, he couldn't adjust things so that they worked well for both of us.

"If their answer is explained in a short message of authority, telling you WHY it must be so, do you accept that,...or do you further question their reasoning, trying to change THEIR mind, and therefore, exert your OWN control over the condition, situation, etc.?"

I further question only if I still have questions to ask. I don't always. This further questioning, however, is not seen by my master (nor by myself anymore) as an attempt to exert my "own control" over the situation; he and I both know that is the _last_ thing that I or any submissive without major conflicts about the goodness of her submission wants. I started out seeing my arguing with him or continuing to speak with him about a command I wasn't sure of as exerting control, but my dominant eventually taught me to (most of the time--some things are hard to get perfect) not believe that idea. He taught me that I will obey better if I fully understand the reasoning behind his commands or decisions (and also if his commands or decisions are sound ones). If he were a person who continually made bad decisions or issued very stupid and harmful commands, quite obviously this strategy would have backfired on him as I was then and still am smart enough and expereinced enough to realize what was going on. Often a person who calls himself dominant but who is insecure about whether he really is that or not, will order his submissive never to question his commands or decisions, because he realizes somewhere deep inside that he can't provide any substantive answers to her questions that won't show him up as a fake or a bumbler. Other dominants online see this sort of behavior: in chat rooms, on "play" mesasge boards, in the essays these so-called dominants write, and think that discouraging clear and complete communication is just the way you do it in bdsm, that it somehow indicates strength rather than cowardice and avoidance. I know, it's hard to imagine any dominant man would unquestioningly swallow all that pap, especially when it probably flys against all of his inner instints and past experiences, but sometimes people do strange things when faced with so called "authoritative" information.

"All of the above is referenced toward beginning NEW relationships, the early stages of becoming MORE familiar with each other,...not established ones, where trust and honesty has been developed over time, with a "track record" behind it."

Yes, eventually a track record is established and trust develops, but I have never stopped questioning my master because the need for doing so has never ceased. Some things become understandable, some commands become shorthand, but life will always throw at you new situations that require new adaptations and even if you or your slave are geniuses, you aren't going to understand each other's different approaches to these new issues unless you talk them over. My master and I, to this day, have such very different outlooks, assumptions, and approaches to life that I still find some of the conclusions he comes to about things astonishing (and he finds that with me too) because they are so different from my own. In all communication situations, assuming that the other person will automatically grasp what you say is a BIG mistake. Some of us share a common language but none of the personal importances, emotional shadings, or imagery, or conclusions about any given thing comes across to another simply by saying the name for it. One's private ways of coming to logical conclusions also takes explanation. Sure, later on, if you consistently make good decisions, your submissive will come to trust and rely on your ability to make them, but there will always be times when your decision seems completely arbitrary (in a situation where it shouldn't be) or the opposite of what she would have done and in those situations, provided they are not life or death and you do not have to act instantly, an explanation and then allowing her to ask her own questions or voice her doubts about your explanation, will be very worthwhile. If your submissive grows to understand _why_ in general you do things, and is not always left in the dark about this, she will be able to trust you more quickly because your reasons (if you've explained them adequately--that means until she has no more questions) will make sense to her.

 

[UCE]

Re: Great Thread Artful

Zipman asks:

"What did I do wrong? Why is she doubting me? How often do I have to prove I know what is best for her in this situation? "

I can answer this last question for you: as long as it takes. Some submissives are much more wary than others; some submissives have a much greater ability to think critically than others (this is a sign of intelligence--you should be proud to be associated with anybody who can think this way even if it does mean the hassle of extra questions); some submissives have been burnt so badly before by idiots that they must question everything, and question for a long time before they can finally, eventually conclude that you are safe and really let their guard down. I was one of the latter. I joke to people that it takes me at least three years to trust someone to even be a good friend, let alone a lover who makes all the decisions about me...but it's actually true. I think it took me at least five years before I fully trusted my master.

Granted there are other reasons for constant questioning and some of those have to do with a submissive having a personality that simply doesn't mesh well with your own. But man, I think you go too far when you say:

"It's a bout trust. Either you do or you don't. "

In my experience trust by the submissive of the dominant is a process containing hundreds of shades of gray. It isn't a lightswitch that's either on or off. There's no trust at all, a little trust, a little more trust, etc... and each of these stages CAN lead to even further trust IF the dominant doesn't get impatient and call a halt to the process prematurely. Trust is earned: and with people who have very good reason not to trust anybody about anything, it is earned very slowly and gradually. Perhaps you personally do not have the patience necessary to put up with building trust in a very mistrustful person--if so you ought to stay away from very hurt submissives (if you can, that is, most of us have been really screwed by life long before we meet you). But I don't think you can assume that just because... "There is a tremendous amount of responsibility involved in being a Dom. Making decisions based on what your sub needs, even if she doesn't realize that she needs it. " that you personally therefore have the personal qualities that make you capable of meeting those responsibilities simply becuase you choose to think of yourself as dominant. And any submissive who believes that about you simply becuase of a title that you ascribe to yourself (dominant) rather than seeing you in action enough to reassure HER and not you--not your timeschedule--hers--because SHE is the one who cannot trust for various reasons, not you. If you stop expecting submissives to respond in the same ways you would if placed in similar circumstances, you will stop being disappointed by them, I think. You have to take and accept a submissive at the point she is at, however low that point may be and bring her to the place you want her to be. That is your responsibility as a dominant. Simply giving up on her, because "she doesn't trust me when I belive she should" is simply abdicating your responsibily and letting her down. Now of course the woman you speak about could have had other personality traits associated with the constant questioning that made you think she would not make a good permanent mate, or perhaps you aren't looking for permanence, I have no way of knowing that, but to just generally state that any woman who doesn't trust you on your own timeschedule or by the time you think they _should_ trust you shows that you have an unrealistic expectation about submissives and until that expectation changes you are going to go through one woman after another, always disappointed becuase none of them can do the impossible.

What I hope for you is that you meet a woman who is so perfect for you in other ways that you are willing to put up with her need to question you as long as that questioning takes her. I hope that you can begin to see such questioning as a sign of a higly valued trait: critical intelligence and not as an "affront" to your "dominance." Talking about ego, that feeling of affront is all ego my man and not based upon anything realistic. You started out the message with the right idea: if you have clearly explained to someone all they needed to know and in the way they need to know that information (sometimes the way some subs learn some things involves repetition, saying the same thing in different ways hundreds of times) then they would not still be asking you questions. I wonder if you have thought deeply enough about the emotional difficulties and horrible experiences that a person may have had to make them so questioning and wary (their intellectual training also has to be taken into account--I learned critical thinking in college and the tendency to question EVERYTHING because most of the time people haven't the slightest idea of what the fuck they are talking about has never left me).

"Not NEEDING to explain yourself is part of what this is all about. That is where the trust comes into play."

I still assert that this is a play idea that looks pretty on paper, that dominants would love to be true, and is easy to fake online (not suggesting you've had online relationships--I don't get that from your messages) but never works in real life. A woman who doesn't question you has probably had all the spirit beaten out of her already or she is as dumb as a doorknob. A woman who does question you and your reasons for making decisions may be a big pain in the butt, but at least she's got the intelligence, perhaps, to keep you entertained for the rest of your life--not something to lightly discard! If she has other personality traits that you like, exercising considerable patience in the question-answering department and realizing that each person is different in this regard and that it will take as long as it takes not as long as you or any authority thinks it should take may help you to not just to win the love of the best submissive for you, but to _keep_ it.

Unda

 

[~*sunkyssed_kym*~]

Re: I think admitting to mistakes

takes alot of 'courage also ...

*So nice to see ya MY-Sir's-k wow!! long time ...

I agree Dream, it takes a lot of courage to admit that one may have made a mistake. But once the error has been admitted, its easier to forgive and move on.
Thanks for the welcome Dream, I haven't been online much, as I've been working extra shifts at the salt mines because I'm leaving next Wed. for England and MY-Sir's arms.

UCE
I am impressed by your grasp for the reason of many submissive's disappointments. You've hit the nail on the head in some areas of the relationship I share with MY-Sir.
I am a person who doesn't say what's on my mind until it has grown to the point that it really bothers me. Like your Master, MY-Sir would rather I spoke up about what I am feeling before they escalate into more than what I originally felt. HE is willing to listen to what I have to say as well. I find it difficult to express myself as I've never had anyone who valued my opinion before. But your point is taken and I see the validity of your statements. Thanks for opening my eyes to something that has plagued me for some time.


-kym- Communicating with MY-Sir.

 

[UCE]

Re: re"Disappointments

You've said a lot of important things in this message, Dream. Answering it all would take me all day (seriously! lol, look at how long my messages are already!) But because I have to go do my master's bidding in a few minutes and go to work I only have time to address a couple of your points. I'll try to address what I think are the most important ones:

You say:

"Doms are to NOT be "accused' of anything.Dom's dont tend to get "their mistakes" thrown up in their faces over& over again..."

Mine does, but that is because he demands that I freely tell him anything and everything on my mind. I don't bring up mistakes over and over, but the single time I will bring up what I think is a mistake, I will lay it on very thick. Our relationship doesn't suffer from it--in fact, keeping things open in this way helps me to not build up resentment toward him. It's so damn easy to feel resentment of a dominant becuase they do have all the control. But being able to freely vent helps keep that resentment to a minimum and helps me to remember how sweet this deal is for me (i.e. because I am not making the decisions, my master rarely accuses me of making mistakes---instead most of the mistakes I make, and I make a lot are seen by him as his fault, even when I argue vociferously with him that they are actually MY fault, lol).


"it is Disrespectful of a sub to tell her/his Master to "fuck off","

My master does not impose any concepts of "respect" upon me; if he were to ever think I am not respectful toward him, it would be because, according to him he had done something so stupid that it earned my disrespect. That's part of his mindset of taking responsibility for everything that happens upon himself. However, I don't think the concept of respect is any part of him. He's never told me I am disrespectful, although in my own opinion I am. I tell him to fuck off a great deal of the time and you know what his usual response is? He laughs! He thinks it's "ever so cute and little." Grrr! That can get on one's nerves too, but at least we don't have this bulky artificial concept of resect to deal with in addition to all the other real and very difficult issues that go on in a relationship.

To tell you the truth, I believe that people who demand respect from anyone else are actually pretty insecure individuals. If you were secure in yourself, if you respected yourself fully, why would you need to demand it from others? Why would you need something from outside yourself to shore yourself up with, if your inner self was secure?

"it is HOWEVER NOT disrespectful for a Dom /me to tell their sub that their words are *bullshit*>that in itself ,puzzles me quite alot ,I find BOTH to be discourteous and quite disrespectful.JMHO.."

Once again, I don't think that respect has any business in a bdsm relationship, on _either_ side (that means he doesn't owe that to you, either) but the problem with saying that your words are bullshit and ONLY saying that is that it doesn't teach you anything, it doesn't explain to you in a way you can comprehend why your ideas are wrong and what is a more realistic way to think about things. If someone says that to me I automatically assume that they're simply saying my ideas are bullshit because my arguments are so damn good that they cannot think of any logical or rational rebuttal to them. If you tell somebody they are full of shit and do not tell them why that is so (you don't always have to do so at the same time although it helps, but I understand that sometimes people need to go away briefly and cool down) then you risk increasing their mistrust in you because you come off as not very in control of actual facts and needing to resort to the extremely weak defense of an ad hominum or personal attack instead of showing where ideas have gone wrong. Sure you may only have told someone her ideas were bs after trying to explain it to her in other ways dozens of times, but it's still a weakness on your part. If you are too tired to try to explain anymore, you say that, you say "I'm too tired to continue with this now, but it's an important issue so we will pick it up at another time soon" you DO NOT say, "your ideas are bullshit" just to get her to shut up. The latter approach is manipulation via intimidation and personal attacks and once again, it earns even further mistrust.

Yeah, a dominant's job is hard, very hard, but who ever said it was easy? It is so hard being responsible for everything, in fact, that one should only do the dominant gig if not doing it would kill you completely inside. I am dead serious about that. This is a sort of life you do only if you aboslutely have to--only if you are compelled to do it.

"I am allowed freely to post as I wish as long as it is NOT inciting a flame ,gee I hope that goes for THIS post also.. I appreciate the freedoms my Master does so lovingly give unto me,His always struggling to succeed ,but ever faltering ,slave..I really do..
What I do not appreciate and am very Disappointed in is HIS ABILITY to really trust that at times maybe my judgements could possibly be good as His,after all He wont always be around me and at times while we have an online LDR ,it will be "imperative that He DOES trust me,He says HE TRusts Me to obey Him and while i am honoredc by that,I wonder if that alone is enough for me ,or if it should be???"

Ok, I've been laying pretty hard on the dominants in this thread so far but right here it's time to say something about submissive duty (not her responsibility mind you but her duty). If you have told someone that you are going to obey them in everything, if that's the kind of relationship that you have, then it is your duty to do your very best to keep your word. So what if your master's decisions aren't always the right ones at any particular moment (or maybe they are and you just don't see it). They're still your master's orders and your job is to obey. Yes, oh yes, as I said in my other long message, I think that a dominant should give you the opportunity to question him about what he wants you to do until you are satisfied with the answers. But assuming he doesn't cut you off prematurely, in the end, even if you wholeheartedly disagree with what he tells you to do and why he is telling you to do it, if he still inisists that you do it, your duty is to obey.

This isn't or rather shouldn't be an issue of a dominant disrespecting your intelligence, but I have to state an important truth: most submissives (and I include myself completely in this) need dominant partners becuase we are the most lousey decision makers on the face of the earth. We do make worse decisions than almost any other type of person. This is a rock bottom truth. The reasons we do are complicated and I can't go into them at length now but they have to do with the way we were raised and how that conflicted with our natural personalities. Normally, by the time a dominant finds one of us and takes us under his wing, we have fucked up our own lives (and those of our dependants if we have any) so badly that we are living in poverty, have horrible personal habits (like eating or drinking too much or bulemia or killing ourselves with cancer sticks), and we are teaching our children tobe as fucked up as we are. Dominants, in general and if they are dominants, do make better decisions, by far, than submissives do, Dream. And their decisions will not always make sense to us, expecially at the beginning of the relationship, because they think in very different ways than we do and conveying that way of thinking to you in a way that you can understand is really hard to do and takes a very long time, possibily years. In the meantime, before you fully understand why he decides stuff, as you get to know your dominant, don't worry so much about understanding why he does what he does; look instead at the outcome of his decisions over the long run. Do these decisions in general help you? Do they make your life better? Are they helping you to grow and change. Are you expanding rather than shrinking? Are you happier? Give the realationship time to develop and keep watching carefully to see if the outcomes of your dominants decisions are good ones, for the most part. If they are, then you'd be stupid to insist on your own way (no problem with asking of course, but if he says no and then explains why just accept it). This isn't an ego contest: different kinds of people are good at different kinds of things. I am a very smart person in general but I don't make decisions one quarter as good as my master's. This isn't because I'm so dumb compared to him (although he is the smarter one in our relationship, it isn't by huge amounts) it is becasue my fucked up emotions which I got from growing up submissive in a world that hates submissives influence my decisions to such a degree that they make them pretty worthless. If I didn't have the emotions to deal with I could make great rational decisions. But I do have them, and I am not able to wave a magic wand and stop them from interfering in my decision making process. That's basically why, if you have concluded that your dom knows what he's doing most of the time, you have to trust his decisions regarding you. As I said in the other post, this trust can take a long time to build, but while it is building, just obey anyway, IF you have decided his decisions work out well for you. Even at the very beginning the only way you're going to find out if his decisions actually work are to follow his instructions and see what happens.

"I would also appreciate it if someone could possibly explain to me ,how it is trying to take "control" away from someone when all you are doing as a sub is trying your best To Honor that Master even while they are "offline" or whatever.. If you have already "submitted" for example and your Master is offline or sleepin or whatever,and there IS a decision to be made about something , are you to not be "trusted' to make a good one?"

This is one of the biggest obstacles in long distance relationships, for sure! Beacuse your dominant isn't there and accessible at all times, sometimes you must make decisions on your own and yeah, for all the reasons I said above, you won't always make the right ones. When my dom and I were in the LDR phase of our relationship, he tried to alleviate this problem in several ways: one, he tried to keep himself as accessible as possible to me at all times of the day or night, so I could call him if I needed an instant opinion or decision. Two, when he was with me, talking on the phone or online, he'd always ask me if I had any questions about how I was to conduct myself over the next period of time when we woudn't be in contact: he asked me to try to anticipate potential problems or issues I would need to ask him about and then he'd answer the questions for me right then. This helped me a lot, actually. It isn't a perfect system though, it can't be when you both live far apart or have times when you cannot reach each other, and sometimes I'd fuck up, usually because I'd misunderstood something and occasionally because something unexpected occurred that I had no standing orders for. All that happened then is that he forgave me and forced me to fogive myself by showing me that these things were not really my fault, they were liabilities of the long-distance situation and could not be completely avoided. Once in a blue moon I deliberately disobeyed him though. Usually it was becuase I was too ashamed of following his orders because someone else was in the room. If it was a case where I would have been harmed in reality by someone else seeing me fall to the floor on my belly when I answered his phone call, he would of course tell me I had done the right thing by not endangering myself or my dependants by doing something that would raise suspicions in the wrong minds. But if it was say, just my girlfriend who was over and I disobeyed out of shame, not because there would have been any dreadful physical consequences to me, he would explain to me very clearly how I had made a mistake and then he'd punish me in a way that made it very unlikely to do what I did again. He'd always use the gentlest punishment on me that he could that would still get the message across to me. You are your master are going to have to work out your own ways of dealing with the difficulties of communications in a long term relationship. But starting out with the assumption that in most cases of fuckups nobody is to blame, it's the situation itself that is fucked should help, because then you can focus on the real issue: trying to make that situation less difficult for communication.

Ok, that's all.
Unda

 

[Desdemona]

Unda, you need to write a book about this. Your discussions are well thought out and articulate.

 

[~Dream~]

Re: Unda's post

You've said a lot of important things in this message, Dream. Answering it all would take me all day (seriously! lol, look at how long my messages are already!) But because I have to go do my master's bidding in a few minutes and go to work I only have time to address a couple of your points. I'll try to address what I think are the most important ones:

You say:

"Doms are to NOT be "accused' of anything.Dom's dont tend to get "their mistakes" thrown up in their faces over& over again..."

Mine does, but that is because he demands that I freely tell him anything and everything on my mind. I don't bring up mistakes over and over, but the single time I will bring up what I think is a mistake, I will lay it on very thick. Our relationship doesn't suffer from it--in fact, keeping things open in this way helps me to not build up resentment toward him. It's so damn easy to feel resentment of a dominant becuase they do have all the control. But being able to freely vent helps keep that resentment to a minimum and helps me to remember how sweet this deal is for me (i.e. because I am not making the decisions, my master rarely accuses me of making mistakes---instead most of the mistakes I make, and I make a lot are seen by him as his fault, even when I argue vociferously with him that they are actually MY fault, lol).


"it is Disrespectful of a sub to tell her/his Master to "fuck off","

My master does not impose any concepts of "respect" upon me; if he were to ever think I am not respectful toward him, it would be because, according to him he had done something so stupid that it earned my disrespect. That's part of his mindset of taking responsibility for everything that happens upon himself. However, I don't think the concept of respect is any part of him. He's never told me I am disrespectful, although in my own opinion I am. I tell him to fuck off a great deal of the time and you know what his usual response is? He laughs! He thinks it's "ever so cute and little." Grrr! That can get on one's nerves too, but at least we don't have this bulky artificial concept of resect to deal with in addition to all the other real and very difficult issues that go on in a relationship.

To tell you the truth, I believe that people who demand respect from anyone else are actually pretty insecure individuals. If you were secure in yourself, if you respected yourself fully, why would you need to demand it from others? Why would you need something from outside yourself to shore yourself up with, if your inner self was secure?

"it is HOWEVER NOT disrespectful for a Dom /me to tell their sub that their words are *bullshit*>that in itself ,puzzles me quite alot ,I find BOTH to be discourteous and quite disrespectful.JMHO.."

Once again, I don't think that respect has any business in a bdsm relationship, on _either_ side (that means he doesn't owe that to you, either) but the problem with saying that your words are bullshit and ONLY saying that is that it doesn't teach you anything, it doesn't explain to you in a way you can comprehend why your ideas are wrong and what is a more realistic way to think about things. If someone says that to me I automatically assume that they're simply saying my ideas are bullshit because my arguments are so damn good that they cannot think of any logical or rational rebuttal to them. If you tell somebody they are full of shit and do not tell them why that is so (you don't always have to do so at the same time although it helps, but I understand that sometimes people need to go away briefly and cool down) then you risk increasing their mistrust in you because you come off as not very in control of actual facts and needing to resort to the extremely weak defense of an ad hominum or personal attack instead of showing where ideas have gone wrong. Sure you may only have told someone her ideas were bs after trying to explain it to her in other ways dozens of times, but it's still a weakness on your part. If you are too tired to try to explain anymore, you say that, you say "I'm too tired to continue with this now, but it's an important issue so we will pick it up at another time soon" you DO NOT say, "your ideas are bullshit" just to get her to shut up. The latter approach is manipulation via intimidation and personal attacks and once again, it earns even further mistrust.

Yeah, a dominant's job is hard, very hard, but who ever said it was easy? It is so hard being responsible for everything, in fact, that one should only do the dominant gig if not doing it would kill you completely inside. I am dead serious about that. This is a sort of life you do only if you aboslutely have to--only if you are compelled to do it.

"I am allowed freely to post as I wish as long as it is NOT inciting a flame ,gee I hope that goes for THIS post also.. I appreciate the freedoms my Master does so lovingly give unto me,His always struggling to succeed ,but ever faltering ,slave..I really do..
What I do not appreciate and am very Disappointed in is HIS ABILITY to really trust that at times maybe my judgements could possibly be good as His,after all He wont always be around me and at times while we have an online LDR ,it will be "imperative that He DOES trust me,He says HE TRusts Me to obey Him and while i am honored by that,I wonder if that alone is enough for me ,or if it should be???"

Ok, I've been laying pretty hard on the dominants in this thread so far but right here it's time to say something about submissive duty (not her responsibility mind you but her duty). If you have told someone that you are going to obey them in everything, if that's the kind of relationship that you have, then it is your duty to do your very best to keep your word. So what if your master's decisions aren't always the right ones at any particular moment (or maybe they are and you just don't see it). They're still your master's orders and your job is to obey. Yes, oh yes, as I said in my other long message, I think that a dominant should give you the opportunity to question him about what he wants you to do until you are satisfied with the answers. But assuming he doesn't cut you off prematurely, in the end, even if you wholeheartedly disagree with what he tells you to do and why he is telling you to do it, if he still inisists that you do it, your duty is to obey.

This isn't or rather shouldn't be an issue of a dominant disrespecting your intelligence, but I have to state an important truth: most submissives (and I include myself completely in this) need dominant partners becuase we are the most lousey decision makers on the face of the earth. We do make worse decisions than almost any other type of person. This is a rock bottom truth. The reasons we do are complicated and I can't go into them at length now but they have to do with the way we were raised and how that conflicted with our natural personalities. Normally, by the time a dominant finds one of us and takes us under his wing, we have fucked up our own lives (and those of our dependants if we have any) so badly that we are living in poverty, have horrible personal habits (like eating or drinking too much or bulemia or killing ourselves with cancer sticks), and we are teaching our children tobe as fucked up as we are. Dominants, in general and if they are dominants, do make better decisions, by far, than submissives do, Dream. And their decisions will not always make sense to us, expecially at the beginning of the relationship, because they think in very different ways than we do and conveying that way of thinking to you in a way that you can understand is really hard to do and takes a very long time, possibily years. In the meantime, before you fully understand why he decides stuff, as you get to know your dominant, don't worry so much about understanding why he does what he does; look instead at the outcome of his decisions over the long run. Do these decisions in general help you? Do they make your life better? Are they helping you to grow and change. Are you expanding rather than shrinking? Are you happier? Give the realationship time to develop and keep watching carefully to see if the outcomes of your dominants decisions are good ones, for the most part. If they are, then you'd be stupid to insist on your own way (no problem with asking of course, but if he says no and then explains why just accept it). This isn't an ego contest: different kinds of people are good at different kinds of things. I am a very smart person in general but I don't make decisions one quarter as good as my master's. This isn't because I'm so dumb compared to him (although he is the smarter one in our relationship, it isn't by huge amounts) it is becasue my fucked up emotions which I got from growing up submissive in a world that hates submissives influence my decisions to such a degree that they make them pretty worthless. If I didn't have the emotions to deal with I could make great rational decisions. But I do have them, and I am not able to wave a magic wand and stop them from interfering in my decision making process. That's basically why, if you have concluded that your dom knows what he's doing most of the time, you have to trust his decisions regarding you. As I said in the other post, this trust can take a long time to build, but while it is building, just obey anyway, IF you have decided his decisions work out well for you. Even at the very beginning the only way you're going to find out if his decisions actually work are to follow his instructions and see what happens.

"I would also appreciate it if someone could possibly explain to me ,how it is trying to take "control" away from someone when all you are doing as a sub is trying your best To Honor that Master even while they are "offline" or whatever.. If you have already "submitted" for example and your Master is offline or sleepin or whatever,and there IS a decision to be made about something , are you to not be "trusted' to make a good one?"

This is one of the biggest obstacles in long distance relationships, for sure! Beacuse your dominant isn't there and accessible at all times, sometimes you must make decisions on your own and yeah, for all the reasons I said above, you won't always make the right ones. When my dom and I were in the LDR phase of our relationship, he tried to alleviate this problem in several ways: one, he tried to keep himself as accessible as possible to me at all times of the day or night, so I could call him if I needed an instant opinion or decision. Two, when he was with me, talking on the phone or online, he'd always ask me if I had any questions about how I was to conduct myself over the next period of time when we woudn't be in contact: he asked me to try to anticipate potential problems or issues I would need to ask him about and then he'd answer the questions for me right then. This helped me a lot, actually. It isn't a perfect system though, it can't be when you both live far apart or have times when you cannot reach each other, and sometimes I'd fuck up, usually because I'd misunderstood something and occasionally because something unexpected occurred that I had no standing orders for. All that happened then is that he forgave me and forced me to fogive myself by showing me that these things were not really my fault, they were liabilities of the long-distance situation and could not be completely avoided. Once in a blue moon I deliberately disobeyed him though. Usually it was becuase I was too ashamed of following his orders because someone else was in the room. If it was a case where I would have been harmed in reality by someone else seeing me fall to the floor on my belly when I answered his phone call, he would of course tell me I had done the right thing by not endangering myself or my dependants by doing something that would raise suspicions in the wrong minds. But if it was say, just my girlfriend who was over and I disobeyed out of shame, not because there would have been any dreadful physical consequences to me, he would explain to me very clearly how I had made a mistake and then he'd punish me in a way that made it very unlikely to do what I did again. He'd always use the gentlest punishment on me that he could that would still get the message across to me. You are your master are going to have to work out your own ways of dealing with the difficulties of communications in a long term relationship. But starting out with the assumption that in most cases of fuckups nobody is to blame, it's the situation itself that is fucked should help, because then you can focus on the real issue: trying to make that situation less difficult for communication.

Ok, that's all.
Unda

____________________

Unda>Thank-you no1 for saying that the things that I SAID in my post were important,I appreciate the validation of my feelings being important as they ARE-to ME...
I say:

"Doms are to NOT be "accused' of anything.Dom's dont tend to get "their mistakes" thrown up in their faces over& over again..."
You say>

Mine does, but that is because he demands that I freely tell him anything and everything on my mind. I don't bring up mistakes over and over, but the single time I will bring up what I think is a mistake, I will lay it on very thick. Our relationship doesn't suffer from it--in fact, keeping things open in this way helps me to not build up resentment toward him. It's so damn easy to feel resentment of a dominant becuase they do have all the control.

RESENTMENT is EXACTLY what I have been feeling.thank-you.My Master has already owned up to mistakes before and has no problems with that,WHEN He is truly mistaken,He does however fee it is important to keep in my brain that Master is always right (even if He is wrong) make any sense? it kinda does to me now..


I said:
"it is Disrespectful of a sub to tell her/his Master to "fuck off","

You replied:


My Master does not impose any concepts of "respect" upon me; if he were to ever think I am not respectful toward him, it would be because, according to him he had done something so stupid that it earned my disrespect. That's part of his mindset of taking responsibility for everything that happens upon himself.

** here I will just say this one thing ,if there is not some form of "mutual respect" in a relationship then it is doomed to fail ,IMHO ...AN ATMOSPHERE OF 'disrespect has all the same ingredients as "childhood abuse" ,again ,JMHO.. It doesnt matter what it is that your partner offers as aresourse to You that you respect Him /her for.It can be Anything ,from bein a hard worker,to being funny and making you laugh to being unusually patient when things get Chaotic.The point is that there's something not about who He/she *is* but who He/she *is* For You that matters in your life and that you think Deserves respect..

I said;
"it is HOWEVER NOT disrespectful for a Dom /me to tell their sub that their words are *bullshit*>that in itself ,puzzles me quite alot ,I find BOTH to be discourteous and quite disrespectful.JMHO.."
You replied:
the problem with saying that your words are bullshit and ONLY saying that is that it doesn't teach you anything, it doesn't explain to you in a way you can comprehend why your ideas are wrong and what is a more realistic way to think about things. If someone says that to me I automatically assume that they're simply saying my ideas are bullshit because my arguments are so damn good that they cannot think of any logical or rational rebuttal to them.

**THAT is USUALLY what I am left thinking however THIS is Usually the TRUTH >(but I understand that sometimes people need to go away briefly and cool down) then you risk increasing their mistrust ... to me hearing that word makes me FEEL that my Master thinks my FEELINGS are BULLSHIT too ,and that simply is NOT True...


You said :
). If you have told someone that you are going to obey them in everything, if that's the kind of relationship that you have, then it is your duty to do your very Best to keep your word. So what if your Master's decisions aren't always the right ones at any particular moment (or maybe they are and you just don't see it). They're still your Master's orders and your job is to Obey. Yes, oh yes, as I said in my other long message, I think that a dominant should give you the opportunity to Question him about what he wants you to do until you are satisfied with the answers.>>>..
>.AMEN TO THAT !! I agree with that whole paragraph within itself!! period ,every line..

*You replied:
Normally, by the time a dominant finds one of us and takes us under his wing, we have fucked up our own lives (and those of our dependants if we have any) so badly that we are living in poverty, have horrible personal habits (like eating or drinking too much or bulemia or killing ourselves with cancer sticks), and we are teaching our children tobe as fucked up as we are. Dominants, in general and if they are dominants, do make better decisions, by far, than submissives do, Dream.

** I am on my 4th miserable marriage ,I have a history of physicall ,mental ,emotional and verbal abuse , rape,I am bi-polar ,these in themselves I do NOT use as an EXCUSE FOR MY behaviour torwards my Master ,or in this Forum ,however they DO INDEED affect it..Being a single Mom is a stress in its own right,financially strapped,etc...I have made something BETTER for my children by allowing them to see ME Learn by my mistakes ,I am in college ,I work when possible ,I have a physical disability which limits this but I do my BEST .. I will NOT allow my babies to be brougt up as FUCKED up as I was ,I have already kept all 4 of them together with ME which was MORE than my own mother did with my brothers and I ,SHE gave meover to my grandma to raise ,therefore creating an abandonment issue that is STILL very much a part of me to this day ,so much so that it literally KILLS me inside when Master leaves me in yahoo messenger for 30 mins or more abruptly when we are in the middle of a discussion..

You said:
In the meantime, before you fully understand why he decides stuff, as you get to know your dominant, don't worry so much about understanding why he does what he does; look instead at the outcome of his decisions over the long run. Do these decisions in general help you? Do they make your life better? Are they helping you to grow and change. Are you expanding rather than shrinking? Are you happier? Give the realationship time to develop and keep watching carefully to see if the outcomes of your dominants decisions are good ones, for the most part.

** I AM happier and His decisions AREusually Good ones ,it's TRUEand they DO for the MOST part Enhance my life ,it's just not a "COMFORTABLE' thing for me yet after dealing with the abuse but I AM getting there...



YOU SAID:I am a very smart person in general but I don't make decisions one quarter as good as my Master's. This isn't because I'm so dumb compared to him (although he is the smarter one in our relationship, it isn't by huge amounts) it is because my fucked up (Emotions) which I got from growing up submissive in a world that hates submissives influence my decisions to such a degree that they make them pretty worthless. If I didn't have the (Emotions) to deal with I could make great rational decisions(BINGO!!). But I do have them, and I am not able to wave a magic wand and stop them from interfering in my decision making process. That's basically why, if you have concluded that your dom knows what he's doing most of the time, you have to trust his decisions regarding you. As I said in the other post, this trust can take a long time to build, but while it is building, just obey anyway,

**I am a highly emotional person with mood swings out the a** ,as I said medication or not I AM bi-polar ,I can be very UP one minute and sittingin HELL the next ,NOT a Fun thing at all>Not for Master either...however just obey anyway is SOON incorporated intomy thought process and I want you to know Unda,your post has been VERY VERY helpful to me ,personally and I truly appreciate the time you took to answer my questions ,thank -you ever so much..