Disappointments

[UCE]

Re: Re: I think admitting to mistakes

UCE
I am impressed by your grasp for the reason of many submissive's disappointments. You've hit the nail on the head in some areas of the relationship I share with MY-Sir.
I am a person who doesn't say what's on my mind until it has grown to the point that it really bothers me.

I'm glad it helped, Kym. I like it too when I hear somebody else voice that they have a problem that I also have. It makes me feel like I'm not so alone or bad or weird after all.

(Well, that applies to all except for my taste in porn. I don't mind people seeing _that_ as weird. Because it's only the truth!)

 

[UCE]

Unda, you need to write a book about this. Your discussions are well thought out and articulate.

Thank you Des. I need to work some on my presentation, though. Too many folks feeling attacked by what I am saying. I am direct and some people take that to be harsh intentions toward them. You know, though, if this sort of thing were in a book, there's no way the reader could think I was talking about him or her specifically (although knowing people, some probably would!)

 

[artful]

UCE,...

Thank you Des. I need to work some on my presentation, though. Too many folks feeling attacked by what I am saying. I am direct and some people take that to be harsh intentions toward them. You know, though, if this sort of thing were in a book, there's no way the reader could think I was talking about him or her specifically (although knowing people, some probably would!)

Uh,...well,...excuse me for pointing this out to you,...but WHEN you use peoples ID nick's, mine for example, (artful), does that mean you are NOT referring to ME???

 

[UCE]

Re: Re: Unda's post

Hi Dream,

It's now the next day and I have time to reply to your long message, without making too many typos I hope.

RESENTMENT is EXACTLY what I have been feeling.thank-you.My Master has already owned up to mistakes before and has no problems with that,WHEN He is truly mistaken,He does however fee it is important to keep in my brain that Master is always right (even if He is wrong) make any sense? it kinda does to me now..


Yes, this makes perfect sense. I think what you're saying above is that you need to know that your master in general and also in the majority of situations will be right. That he will be steering you in general on the right course? I feel that way about my master, too. Individual errors do not matter, those are only human, what's important is that the sum total of what he does or decides is positive and furthers the relationship. I'll go one step further about that: I don't even care what sorts of mistakes a dominant makes outside of his relationship with me; even though such mistakes may affect us both, what really matters to me is that he know how to make US work. Everything else is small beans to me.

** here I will just say this one thing ,if there is not some form of "mutual respect" in a relationship then it is doomed to fail ,IMHO ...AN ATMOSPHERE OF 'disrespect has all the same ingredients as "childhood abuse" ,again ,JMHO.. It doesnt matter what it is that your partner offers as aresourse to You that you respect Him /her for.It can be Anything ,from bein a hard worker,to being funny and making you laugh to being unusually patient when things get Chaotic.The point is that there's something not about who He/she *is* but who He/she *is* For You that matters in your life and that you think Deserves respect..

I think I see what you're saying. While my master doesn't care about the form of address I use with him, this is probably only because he knows that in my heart I deeply respect him. He also knows I am moody and sometimes get carried away with emotion. It's easy to forget when your temper is flaring how much overall you respect someone's decisions and control over your life. All that you're focused on is the thing that you are angry at. So yeah, I feel respect; I'm just not required to show it, especially if I am in no condition to do so. At other, non-angry times, I more than make up for my angry attitudes. I tell him a lot what I think he's doing right and how proud I am of him. We both say those kinds of things to each other a lot, actually--but only if we really mean them. Always affirming out loud what the love of your life does that's wonderful for you makes for a pretty happy relationship.

Dream:
**THAT is USUALLY what I am left thinking however THIS is Usually the TRUTH >(but I understand that sometimes people need to go away briefly and cool down) then you risk increasing their mistrust ... to me hearing that word makes me FEEL that my Master thinks my FEELINGS are BULLSHIT too ,and that simply is NOT True...

Once again, I feel the same way. My dom likes to use the word "nonsense" instead of bullshit. And often when he's telling me that a specific idea of mine is nonsense, I hear him saying that everything I say and feel is nonsense. In my opinions, feelings are never nonsense or inappropriate, they just are. People feel what they feel and it is very hard to learn to control spontaneous emotions. Even if what you feel is wrong or is based on wrong ideas, I think it helps to hear someone say that your feelings are legitimate. That doesn't mean that you then shouldn't work together on changing the way you feel or respond to something, especially if it's an inaccurate response (like thinking your master is putting you down when he is in fact praising you--this is a common one in subs and learning to accept compliments for what they are is well worth all the hard work of changing an emotional response). I guess what I'm saying is that it's dumb to say to anybody, "You shouldn't feel such and such." Clearly, they are feeling such and such and, if you believe, as I do, that they initially have no choice but to feel it, then telling them not to feel it is simply telling them to repress or hide the feelings. Repressing or hiding feelings is not something that's good to encourage in a relationship based on hard honesty and openness but that is what will occur if the person has no choice and cannot control the emotions on his or her own.

** I am on my 4th miserable marriage ,I have a history of ...

You have had a very tough time of it. You know, don't you, despite any emotional difficulties you may have, that you are a very strong person for being able to hold up under that sort of life pressure. Lots of people flip, can't deal with it, and abandon their charges and responsibilities. Kudos to you for hanging in there in what seems to me a nearly impossible situation! I'm one of those people who believes in the old chiche that if hard times do not break you, they invariably make you stronger. That seems to be what is happeing with you. I know about hard times too, they are different than yours, but hard in themselves. My master is very ill and often depressed because of it. It's not easy when the person you depend on gets depressed, as temporarily, you become the one in the relationship who needs to be strong, at least in the sense of providing encouragement.

I'm wondering about something. How are you guys working on your being left abruptly in messenger? Or is it one of those things that can be improved? Sometimes, particularly if your long-distance dominant is living with someone else, that abruptly leaving business is something that just can't be changed very easily. I have a close buddy online who does this, too, because he lives with someone, and it took me a hell of a long time to get used to it because it directly hits on my rejection button, lol. Something in me always wants to think, "he's left beacuse he's bored with me or doesn't think I'm important enough, etc." And he wasn't even my dominant! Eventually I did get used to it, however, because he actually didn't mean anything negative about me with it. Anyway, if it is changable, I'm sure your master will work on it with you, because you strike me as someone who doesn't keep that sort of important matter to herself.

** I AM happier and His decisions AREusually Good ones ,it's TRUEand they DO for the MOST part Enhance my life ,it's just not a "COMFORTABLE' thing for me yet after dealing with the abuse but I AM getting there...

Low whistle of admiration for your master. Although he and I seem to have having some sort of disagreement right now, I must say that I admire someone who is willing to take on responsibility for someone who has been abused like you have. It is very easy to mistake domination and a dominant's will for just more abuse, especially if you've had recent experience with the latter. You two will have and do have more than your fair share of emotional issues to work on--and this is nobody's fault except perhaps the people that abused you in the past--and it takes a lot of courage and determination on both the dom's and the sub's parts to make this sort of relationship work. You've only said a little bit about the troubles that face you, but even from the little you've said, I can see how challeging this is for him and for you. Artful, if you can hear me, know that you've gained some new respect in my eyes because of what your girl has told me.

**I am a highly emotional person with mood swings out the a**

Tell me about mood swings! (rolling eyes) Or I'll tell you, lol. The only good thing that has happened over the years to my mood swings despite my dominant's considerable efforts in this area is that they have become much shorter than they used to be. I find it hard to stay mad at a person these days for even as long as a half-hour! Unless they continually say and do things to piss me off, I'm back to thinking of them as decent after the brief swing. Even though the swiftness of my moods now makes me seem a little nutty at times, I like it much better than the old way, where I'd stay mad or upset for a much longer time.

....however just obey anyway is SOON incorporated intomy thought process and I want you to know Unda,your post has been VERY VERY helpful to me ,personally and I truly appreciate the time you took to answer my questions ,thank -you ever so much..

Yeah, just obeying, no matter what you feel at the time, is the key I think when you are a submissive with mood swings and you're with a controller you know that you can trust. I tell myself: I can figure all this out later, we can talk it over when we have the time but for now, he wants XYZ done, so get cracking, Unda! At least, I say that to myself, when I have enough self-control, lol. I find that, however, if I remind myself to do this when I'm not upset it becomes easier for me to remember how I should respond when I am upset.

I'm glad you found my message helpful. It probably was because we are similar in temperment and have therefore have had similar expereinces with dominants, lol! It always helps to hear you aren't the only one feeling something, epecially when what you're feeling is pretty shitty. I thought that you were kind of like me when I saw your sigs: they are so happy and optimistic, they always make me smile and they tell me that you have a lot of spirit.

Unda

Miscellaneous Porn and a comment about it: I love see-through or netted clothing on women...and also on men, especially if the latter have tattoos you can see underneath the mesh. I think it's much more perverted to wear a top like the one donned by the lady in the photo attached than to wear nothing at all. Look at how it shapes and accents her breasts. Look at the obscene way her nipples press through the mesh. Look at the contrast of the black against her lightly-tanned skin. NICE!

 

[MasterKensbeany]

Thank you Willow

[QUOTE from Willowpuss]
"As for your last question ... once Master has made up his mind, I will not try to change it. Even if I think the decision is wrong, I will not try to change it. If, over the coming days/weeks/months time and circumstances prove me to be right - I do not regret bowing to His will. That is what I offered him when I offered my submission. That is what He deserves - anything less from me and we would just be playing, pretending as it were, to live the lifestyle - not actually doing it. [/QUOTE]

I was beginning to think I was all alone out here in my attitude towards my Master's decisions. I would take it one step farther. If the decision are life decisions (where to live, work etc) then I may discuss my concerns and ask pertinent questions, respectfully. He allows this as he cares about what's best for me and wants my input. If, on the other hand, they are decisions about how to serve him and make him happy, these decisions are not discussed nor questioned but obeyed immediately. I am here to please him, that is my function, why would I question something what gives him pleasure?

There was one other thing addressed in an earlier post that I found confusing. I read where a sub/slave had told her Master to "fuck off" and another replied that she had done the same. OK, I'll admit I'm old school, trained some 30 years ago but, in my experience, telling my Master to "fuck off" was tantamount to begging release from my collar. If I was forgiven for such flagrant disrespect and allowed to keep my collar, that would be an act of true kindness and generosity. I can't imagine myself dishonoring my Master further by posting such a thing to a public board. Fact is, I'd want it forgotten as soon as possible. I am not criticizing those who posted, I realize we all live our lives as we need to and if this is the relationship they have with their Masters and it is accepted by them, then its as it should be. I am simply trying to understand the motivations and feeling behind it.

I hope this didn't come off too strongly, it is not my intention to flame or hurt anyone.

Respectfully
beany

 

[artful]

MasterKensbeany

[QUOTE from Willowpuss]
"As for your last question ... once Master has made up his mind, I will not try to change it. Even if I think the decision is wrong, I will not try to change it. If, over the coming days/weeks/months time and circumstances prove me to be right - I do not regret bowing to His will. That is what I offered him when I offered my submission. That is what He deserves - anything less from me and we would just be playing, pretending as it were, to live the lifestyle - not actually doing it.

I was beginning to think I was all alone out here in my attitude towards my Master's decisions. I would take it one step farther. If the decision are life decisions (where to live, work etc) then I may discuss my concerns and ask pertinent questions, respectfully. He allows this as he cares about what's best for me and wants my input. If, on the other hand, they are decisions about how to serve him and make him happy, these decisions are not discussed nor questioned but obeyed immediately. I am here to please him, that is my function, why would I question something what gives him pleasure?

There was one other thing addressed in an earlier post that I found confusing. I read where a sub/slave had told her Master to "fuck off" and another replied that she had done the same. OK, I'll admit I'm old school, trained some 30 years ago but, in my experience, telling my Master to "fuck off" was tantamount to begging release from my collar. If I was forgiven for such flagrant disrespect and allowed to keep my collar, that would be an act of true kindness and generosity. I can't imagine myself dishonoring my Master further by posting such a thing to a public board. Fact is, I'd want it forgotten as soon as possible. I am not criticizing those who posted, I realize we all live our lives as we need to and if this is the relationship they have with their Masters and it is accepted by them, then its as it should be. I am simply trying to understand the motivations and feeling behind it.

I hope this didn't come off too strongly, it is not my intention to flame or hurt anyone.

Respectfully
beany [/QUOTE]

Thank you so much for your post. I am pleased by the openess that all are displaying in this thread.

While I do not agree with ALL the opinions that are posted here,...STILL,...I value those who post their own truth.

I do agree totally with your post.

 

[UCE]

Re: Thank you Willow

[QUOTE from Willowpuss]
I read where a sub/slave had told her Master to "fuck off" and another replied that she had done the same. OK, I'll admit I'm old school, trained some 30 years ago but, in my experience, telling my Master to "fuck off" was tantamount to begging release from my collar.

I hope this didn't come off too strongly, it is not my intention to flame or hurt anyone.

Respectfully
beany

No hurt recieved, at least from me, one of the "fuck off" submissives. Different bdsm relationships have different styles and ways of doing things, clearly. Your dominant is, from what you say, much more formal with you than mine is with me. Part of this is probably just a matter of their differing personalities and styles, part might be due to the fact that you may be a very different kind of person than me with different needs and responses. I mean, for somebody like you, clearly a "don't say fuck off" command works well or at least doesn't cause too many disturbances.

My master, although he doesn't give a damn what I say to him, seems to be much stricter than your master in a certain sense: he would never "release" me from my slavery, no matter what I did, unless I was miserable for an extremely long time with him and he had spent a couple of years trying to make the misery go away to no avail. So I guess that's part of the reason why I can be comfortable saying "fuck off" to him. If his love and patience with me were conditional on my never speaking certain words, I'm not sure that I personally could ever feel comfortable or safe with him. You apparently do feel safe with your master, despite the conditionality of the situation?

Many dominants I know base a lot of their actions and even their style of dominance to the situation and the needs of their submissives. Some submissives don't need to know the why's for things and will silently obey without questioning. That can be both good and bad, I think. It depends on their real reasons for not questioning. Other submissives, I think, can be told never to say "fuck off" to their dominants and still be able to remain perfectly open with him and not repressing anything important he needs to know in order to control him. Still others of us, like subs like myself who have mood swings, are very sensitive to being censored in our speech and we intrepret it automatically and without thinking (our background makes us this way) as meaning that our dominant wants us to keep some of the real truth of ourselves hidden from him. And that hiding of self, of course, leads to even bigger problems than an occasional "fuck off" outburst.

Unrelated porno image:

 

[UCE]

Re: UCE,...

Uh,...well,...excuse me for pointing this out to you,...but WHEN you use peoples ID nick's, mine for example, (artful), does that mean you are NOT referring to ME???

LOL, you are excused Artful.

In answer to your question, yes, absolutely, when I use somebody's nick I am referring directly to them or rather, to something they have said, but since when does using somebody's name mean you are trying to be harsh and hurtful or attacking or flaming? It simply means that what you're saying refers to them or what they said previously.

When I said to Des that I apparently need to work on my persentation I wasn't implying that I need to avoid using people's names in posts, especially if they've said something I want to respond to. I don't think writing something general or nameless about a very specific post about a specific incident does anything except let others know you aren't willing to confront that person directly--but you still want to make your points. What I meant about looking at how I present myself to others is to figure out how, in a post that I thought I wrote in a neutral, helpful, even friendly tone, somebody else read flaming or attacks. I hope to use Mr. Zip's long reply to me for that purpose later today. It could be there are changes I could make in the way I word things so that this doesn't happen again.

I will defend myself strongly if I feel I've been attacked first and for no clear reason. I did so last night in another thread with you and with someone else posting in that thread. The tone of these defensive messages _should_ be read as rather pissed off, because they are! I don't see any reason to jump on someone out of the blue that way. The problem is, of course, that you and/or Mr. Zip are reading my neutral messages as attacks. But as I said, that is something I hope to explore and fix.

Unda

 

[~Dream~]

Re:UCE

You said:
My Master, although he doesn't give a damn what I say to him, seems to be much stricter than your Master in a certain sense


* My Master DOES care what I say to Him ,and I admit I HAVE said "fuck off' before and I feel very bad about it cause to me it is DISRESPECTFUL,plain ,pure,and simple..
<snip>
Different bdsm relationships have different styles and ways of doing things, clearly.> **Yes each relationship is indeed UNIQUE with its own rules and responsibilities ,thats for sure..
<snip>
If his love and patience with me were conditional on my never speaking certain words, I'm not sure that I personally could ever feel comfortable or safe with him.

* I feel the EXACT same way as you feel here,the Love part should NOT have imposed restrictions like that or people would be 'breaking up 'all over the place.. Master never did officially "release" me even after I know what I said to Him was wrong ,He exercised Huge Huge amounts of patience in my eyes ,but thats because His love for me is GENUINE..
However ,as His slave He is due my honor and my respect because I feel He has EARNED them..because of this I have decided to THINk more about how I choose to respond instead of always allowing my EMOTIONS to overrule me ..when I hurt Master ,I hurt myself also..

You said:

<snip>
Many dominants I know base a lot of their actions and even their style of dominance to the situation and the needs of their submissives. Some submissives don't need to know the why's for things and will silently obey without questioning. Still others of us, like subs like myself who have mood swings, are very sensitive to being censored in our speech and we intrepret it automatically and without thinking (our background makes us this way) as meaning that our dominant wants us to keep some of the real truth of ourselves hidden from him. And that hiding of self, of course, leads to even bigger problems than an occasional "fuck off" outburst.

Master does base His actions on what I as His slave need,however My actions are also to be based on HIS Needs over mine..I ,being Bi-polar have many many mood swings making it difficult for Him to know whats going on any given moment ,however there is never ,in my honest opinion JUSTIFICATION for being rude or disrespectful ,esp to someone you love and who loves you back just as deeply ,perhaps we should learn to keep our hearts *soft* (yes even Doms),its not a BAD thing at all...

You said:
You've only said a little bit about the troubles that face you, but even from the little you've said, I can see how challeging this is for him and for you.

* you dont even know the half of it Unda Roflmfao I'll post more on THIS later ,I promise..

 

[artful]

Dream

Thank you also for your posts. You have progressed well above my expectations, in such a short period of time. Keep up the good work. As you now know,...it DOES get *better*.

 

[MasterKensbeany]

clarification

UCE wrote

My master, although he doesn't give a damn what I say to him, seems to be much stricter than your master in a certain sense: he would never "release" me from my slavery, no matter what I did, unless I was miserable for an extremely long time with him and he had spent a couple of years trying to make the misery go away to no avail. So I guess that's part of the reason why I can be comfortable saying "fuck off" to him. If his love and patience with me were conditional on my never speaking certain words, I'm not sure that I personally could ever feel comfortable or safe with him. You apparently do feel safe with your master, despite the conditionality of the situation?

Dear Unda

I just wanted to clarify this point. I didn't mean to imply that my Master would release me if I said "fuck off" to him (although I'm sure I wouldn't enjoy whatever he did choose to do), in fact he's told me many times he's never letting me go and I believe he means it. What I meant to say is, the way I was trained, way back when, was that if a slave took this kind of liberty with their Master, the implication would be that she was begging for release and the consequences could be that drastic. That training is well ingrained in me and I would simply never say such a thing to Master. While I agree that it is my duty to make my feelings or any problems known to Master, it is also my duty to do so in a way that keeps me mindful of my station, as his slave.

It seems your Master and you have a wonderful relationship and I'm very happy for you. Our Masters may differ on some points but, they share many of the same qualities as well, kindness, compassion and a loving nature.


Artful wrote
" Thank you so much for your post. I am pleased by the openess that all are displaying in this thread.

While I do not agree with ALL the opinions that are posted here,...STILL,...I value those who post their own truth.

I do agree totally with your post. "

Thank you Sir. One of the good things about open forums such as this one is seeing all of the diverse ways this "lifestyle" can be lived. We are all unique and fascinating in our own rights.

Respectfully
beany

 

[UCE]

Re: Re:UCE

"
* you dont even know the half of it Unda Roflmfao I'll post more on THIS later ,I promise.."

I belive that! Real life is so much stranger than anything I can ever make up.

 

[UCE]

Re: clarification

UCE wrote



Dear Unda

I just wanted to clarify this point. I didn't mean to imply that my Master would release me if I said "fuck off" to him (although I'm sure I wouldn't enjoy whatever he did choose to do), in fact he's told me many times he's never letting me go and I believe he means it.

Ok I get this now. If you guys have been together for a long time, then him realeasing you for a "fuckoff" would be like shooting his own foot cause he got a cramp in the toe.

"What I meant to say is, the way I was trained, way back when, was that if a slave took this kind of liberty with their Master, the implication would be that she was begging for release and the consequences could be that drastic. That training is well ingrained in me and I would simply never say such a thing to Master. While I agree that it is my duty to make my feelings or any problems known to Master, it is also my duty to do so in a way that keeps me mindful of my station, as his slave. "

I hear you. But even way back then (30 years ago you say?) my master had been dominating women for quite some time and he was still the easygoing man he is today. I don't know if it was so much the times as the personalities of the people involved. At one point long before he met me, my master was exploring a relationship with a submissive woman to see if they were compatible as lifelong partners and what he concluded in the end was that his style of dominance was too relaxed and easygoing for this particular woman's needs. So he found her a stricter master, and she's been with that second guy for decades now, living a very happy and private life with him. I sometimes wish my dom was sterner with me, I imagine it as being sexy, but when I think realistically about what an aggressive person I am, I decide no way. Someone like that would probably have crushed me.

"It seems your Master and you have a wonderful relationship and I'm very happy for you. Our Masters may differ on some points but, they share many of the same qualities as well, kindness, compassion and a loving nature. "

Very true words, beany.

 

[Artless Preen]

I'm sure it not only depends on ones past history, but also their innate fear of turning loose of defensive mechanisms, they have depended on for much of their life.

That being said,...I am a *patient* man.

You would have to be either patient or mental to put up with her going on about how great you are, and then ignoring or questioning all of Your commands. DUH!!!!

 

[UCE]

Re: Re: Re: Great Thread Artful

Ok, Zipman. Let's see if I can get this mess cleared up before I have to go read to my master. Quite frankly, I've been avoiding it all day, because it is so darn LONG (I wrote long and then you replied long). But I'll see if I can shorten it as I go.

UCE,

I have to tell you how surprised and disappointed I was by your post. I wrote a few sentences which you have turned around and used to insinuate things about me that you have no way of knowing. It is easy to take a sentence out of the context of the entire post and twist it to try and make someone else look bad.

To be honest, I wouldn't have even replied to it had this not been done on a public board. You have made inaccurate assumptions about my abilities as a Dom that I feel I have to respond to. Therefore, I will go through your post and correct each of your misperceptions, point by point. [/qoute]

It's a good thing you decided to answer me then, isn't it, or a very big and totally needless misunderstanding between us could have arisen. I think the bottom line is that communicating via writing is always hard and often hit-and-miss. Your readers don't always see what you see in your head, because they interpret things thourgh their own personal biases. This is doubly, no triply true if the reader has a strong individual stake in what you've written (i.e. you've written about their posting).

I've already commented on this much of your letter, but I'd like to add that you seem to have misread my intentions toward you, perhaps in the same way you think I misread or read too much into your original post. Once again, I must repeat, my intentions were good one, neutral at worst. They are good in this post too, so far. I don't see any point in flaming someone who is just defending himself and isn't on the warpath against me.

You next said:

"Is that the only reason that a sub might repeatedly question a Dom? Because she has been damaged?"

No, not at all. Often it's because she's got a healthy curiousity and the active mind that is behind such curiousity. But I think I said that in my earlier post. In general though, different submissives have different styles of responding and they don't always mesh with the dominant's personal style. I just told beany a story about that, something that happened to my master, in an earlier message in this thread.

"Perhaps she is more interested in the fantasy of BDSM and not the reality, which has been more my experience when dealing with repeated questioning."

Are you serious? This isn't something I've encountered much at all. First of all, I guess I've been lucky to encounter some pretty serious submissive types. Secondly, their curiousity has seemed perfectly natural to me. How can a sub trust you if she still has questions about you...or general questions about bdsm and its appropriateness for her life? And how can she get those questions answered if you don't allow her to ask them or if you say the time for asking them at some arbitrary point? Questions arise when they arise, there is no timetable to them. They bubble out of the subconscious, usually, or in some cases it takes a submissive many weeks or even months to ask the most serious questions on her mind (she has to make sure she can trust you first). Something very serious and earth-shattering in the submissive's mind may occur to her the day before she moves in with you. This something is so important to her that, if you were to answer one way, it would totally queer the deal for her and she'd have to get out of the relationship. Are you suggesting she NOT ask such a thing simply because the question doesn't occur to her until very late in the process?

"Perhaps she is trying to top form the bottom."

How is asking questions topping from the bottom? I see asking questions more as testing the man who claims he is dominant to see if he really is what he says he is. If he can handle my questions with aplomb, if he doesn't get distrubed or angry or show other kinds of insecurity when I ask him things I really need to know about him, then just maybe he isn't hiding anything. Far too many dominants online are hiding something big, Mr. Zipman: they are hiding the fact that they aren't really dominant. Submissives, in response to this overwhelming decception have to be very very careful about who they give up their lives to. If they don't they often wind up like one of the dozens of submissives I've known who weren't careful enough, didn't question enough, jumped too soon: out on the street on their asses in a strange city with no money, no assets, and no place to go. This happens a whole lot to submissive women who meet domiants online and I cannot urge such people strongly enough to stick to their guns and make certain that they are SURE they can trust the man they're uprooting their lives and perhaps the lives of their children for. If they don't, they may really hurt themselves and their dependants. This is the point of view I come from, Zipman7. Imagine me as your local represenative from Submissive Horror World, just a few blocks and around the corner from here.

You end this paragraph:

"If you want to know my views on how a sub should act, read WillowPuss' posts from the first page of this thread. She is an incredible sub!"

I've read Willow's messages and I am forming my own opinion of her and it isn't relevant to our discussion. What I really want to see from you are some examples of how lots of questions make things bad for a dominant or indicate something like resistance, topping from the bottom, an interest in fantasy as opposed to reality, etc. My problem here is that I have not encountered this situation before and I cannot imagine it occurring. Are you talking about a situation where the sub has arranged to meet you for the first time, and it's all set, but then she cancels because she doesn't feel ready and needs to ask you more questions? I knew a sub who did that once to a dom, over and over again she'd cancel firm meetings she'd made at the last minute because she "just wasn't ready." She was a case of a person who did not know her own mind yet, and so strung this guy along without realizing how much harm she was doing. It was quite unconsciously cruel, however. It was driving the guy nuts.

Argh! Something is wrong with this message. It shows your responses to my quotes but not my original quotes. I'm going to send this then copy and paste the rest of it into the editor because I can't remember what I said that you're responding to, if that makes sense.

Stay tuned for more,
Unda

 

[~Dream~]

Re:Master

Thank you also for your posts. You have progressed well above my expectations, in such a short period of time. Keep up the good work. As you now know,...it DOES get *better*.

_____________________
Thank-you Master,that means alot to me ,esp coming from You M'love,as you well know as do I ,I most certainly do NOT ignore and always question Your commands,I do question some ,as I am still a new submissive,however I NEVER ignore..

 

[~Dream~]

You go Girl!!

[readers don't always see what you see in your head, because they interpret things thourgh their own personal biases. This is doubly, no triply true if the reader has a strong individual stake in what you've written (i.e. you've written about their posting).


* Truer words could not have been spoken,I have publicly revealed ALOT about Artful's and my relationship,however I do it as a means to help others who are struggling Not to "glorify Him or myself ,I am however entitled to express MY thoughts and feelings about both Him and us as I see fit..

You next said:<snip>

"Is that the only reason that a sub might repeatedly question a Dom? Because she has been damaged?"

No, not at all. Often it's because she's got a healthy curiousity and the active mind that is behind such curiousity. submissives have different styles of responding and they don't always mesh with the dominant's personal style.

How can a sub trust you if she still has questions about you...or general questions about bdsm and its appropriateness for her life? And how can she get those questions answered if you don't allow her to ask them or if you say the time for asking them at some arbitrary point? Questions arise when they arise, there is no timetable to them. They bubble out of the subconscious, usually, or in some cases it takes a submissive many weeks or even months to ask the most serious questions on her mind (she has to make sure she can trust you first).


**Thinking out things and learning to ask my questions in an approprite manner seems to work better for BOTH Master and I now as I feel more HEARD by Him which is VERY important indeed for me.. if My very REAL needs to have questions answered and to be HEARD is left ignored or unanswered by Him then so does my Joy' insubmitting to Him vanish .
,snip>
"Perhaps she is trying to top form the bottom."

How is asking questions topping from the bottom? I see asking questions more as testing the man who claims he is dominant to see if he really is what he says he is. If he can handle my questions with aplomb, if he doesn't get distrubed or angry or show other kinds of insecurity when I ask him things I really need to know about him, then just maybe he isn't hiding anything. Far too many dominants online are hiding something big. Submissives, in response to this overwhelming decception have to be very very careful about who they give up their lives to

** To many Dom/mes jump way to often to the erroneaus(sp.) conclusion that automatically questioning them is "topping from the bottom"..no one is accepted on just THEIR WORD IS LAW ,esp at the begginning of a relationship..

"If you want to know my views on how a sub should act, read WillowPuss' posts from the first page of this thread. She is an incredible sub!"

* Zip is entitled to His opinions about Willow ,who I also find to be a very nice person and a good sub too ,however No one is "perfect" not even Willow,I could learn alot of things from her ,there is no doubt in my mind,and maybe from me she could learn the trials and struggles of being a single mother ,who knows? However, as fellow submissives we should each ENCOURAGE each other on our own individual journeys and not attempt to even think we KNOW all there is to know about "submissivenes itself as we are all UNIQUE individuals each in their own right..JMHO..

* Unda? While I may not always agree with all of Your posts on this forum to others,I'd personally like to say that it is VERY refreshing to ME to have someone at last who truly "understands
some of the things I go through. thank you for your posts and your insight ,you may consider me as someone who appreciates having a REP from Submissive Horror World ... ty'

 

[UCE]

More to Zipman

Ok, this time I copied the whole thing: I'll delete the part that's already been talked about in the other message. I hope I closed all my bold codes or this is really going to get confusing! Legend: Bold=old me, "quotes" = you. Regular type = my new response to you, OK?

Originally posted by UCE:

But man, I think you go too far when you say:

"It's a bout trust. Either you do or you don't. "

In my experience trust by the submissive of the dominant is a process containing hundreds of shades of gray. It isn't a lightswitch that's either on or off. There's no trust at all, a little trust, a little more trust, etc... and each of these stages CAN lead to even further trust IF the dominant doesn't get impatient and call a halt to the process prematurely. Trust is earned: and with people who have very good reason not to trust anybody about anything, it is earned very slowly and gradually.

You say:

"That's your opinion."

No, it is my _exerpience_. My lengthy experience which has caused me to recognize this simply little set of facts about trust over and over and over again so that I cannot doubt its veracity.

"I didn't suggest it was a lightswitch."

You did in so many words, and I quoted you: "It's about trust. Either you do or you don't." That's pretty black-white, on-off to me. Hence my analogy of a lightswitch.

"I think that trust is earned over time. But how much time does one wish to wait. That is a personal issue, and it is different for each of us. After one year, I felt that the type of questions that she was asking and the commands she had trouble performing were already discussed repeatedly. I viewed this as an indicator of poor compatability between us. It is my right as a Dom, just as it is the right of a sub to end a BDSM relationship if it is not working. That is what I did."

Sure, my dom did the same thing with the girl who needed someone stricter and more formal in style than he was. Also, the issue of time is something everybody needs to settle personally for themselves: how much time is too much. I think I talked about that in my earlier message, didn't I? Using my long but necessary "3 years to be friends" timeline as an example of an ideosyncartic need for lots of time? I committed to my master long before three years were up because something inside me that's never been wrong told me he was right for me, but I didn't fully have intellectual or experiential reasons to fully trust him (and for an intellectual, intellectual reasons are quite important) for many years after that.

"What gives you the right to judge whether or not it was "premature? Were you there? Had you seen our interactions? No, but that doesn't stop you from suggesting that it must be my (the Dom's fault) for not being patient enough. "

Woah, slow down! I did nothing of the sort. But I am beginning to see where some of this misunderstanding is coming from. I left my quote in above, in bold, so you could re-read what I actually said. If you re-read the passage, you will see that I was talking generally about this point and even speculatively (IF a dom does A THEN the sub will feel B), and not accussing you personally of anything!

You need to understand something about me Zipman, and I'm probably only going to say it this once because I get very impatient with repeating what should be perfectly obvious to people: you know all this directness and honesty we're always talking about in this forum? Well, I have had the qualities represented by these words DRUMMED INTO ME for the last 15 years, not that it was that necessary as I was that way to begin with. You are talking to a person who, when she means YOU PERSONALLY will use your name in the sentence so that you know she is thinking such and such about you. If I DON'T mean you personally, if I am talking more generally, you will not find your name used anywhere in the passage. I don't have a hidden agenda. I don't deal in subterfuge or manipulation. I don't say one thing while thinking something else. I don't say something in general when I mean you specifically. I will refer to you directly. What? You think I'm scared of doing so? Man, I've been online for longer than I've been owned! If I were still, at this late date, terrified of telling people hard things to their face, I'd be in a mental institution somewhere frozen up with fear. Maybe other people haven't been exactly honest with you zipman and maybe that's why you read things into my words that were not said. But with me (and maybe with me only, I have no idea) what I say is always exactly what I mean. I have no need to pussyfoot around you or anybody here...and I won't. If I think you're doing something really suckie or advising someone to do something hurtful, you will have no doubt in your mind whatsoever that I disapprove. Your name will be splattered, often unnecessairly, in every sentence I write, simply because I WON'T want you to think I'm being general. Clear? LOL, I hope so!

"Perhaps she does have trust issues which will inhibit her from having any kind of successful relationship."

Perhaps, I can't say as I don't know this woman, obviously, but responding generally now, engendering trust is something a dominant can, if he wants to take the time and effort, actively encourage and cause to grow in a partner with very rewarding results. You don't have to sit back passively, obviously, and wait for her to trust you. There are ways to hurry the process along.

Originally posted by UCE

Perhaps you personally do not have the patience necessary to put up with building trust in a very mistrustful person--if so you ought to stay away from very hurt submissives (if you can, that is, most of us have been really screwed by life long before we meet you). But I don't think you can assume that just because... "There is a tremendous amount of responsibility involved in being a Dom. Making decisions based on what your sub needs, even if she doesn't realize that she needs it. " that you personally therefore have the personal qualities that make you capable of meeting those responsibilities simply becuase you choose to think of yourself as dominant.

You reply:

"This is where you get really offensive as you question both my patience and my ability to Dom here. "

Ah! I can see that, even without reading your explanation that comes next! Yes you are right, while I still was not directly accusing you of anything (I said perhaps not for sure), I can see how this might sound snide if you already thought the person was on the attack against you. It wasn't meant that way at all! I was trying to state an actual fact, not very well it seems, and that fact is that some submissives are so broken in the trust area that it does take their partners 3, 4, 5 or more years to fully gain their trust. But saying that you might not (I don't know) have the patience to wait for someone for that insane amount of time is not saying you are just an impatient and shallow person! Far from it. Patience of the sort I was referring to above is very unusual for anybody to have, and, as I think I said later, might only be there if you were motivated enough, i.e. were so madly in love with this person that you were willing to wait years and years for her to be fully yours. To me, saying that is just a fact of life and doesn't reflect badly off of you at all. I don't expect you or any other dom here to go off expending all this engery trying to save the really hard cases, the women who cannot trust fully for many years, just becuase it's a nice thing to do! It clearly wouldn't' work--for one thing, you'd really resent your partner--unless, of course, you happen to fall in love with such a person and she is compatible to you in a hundred other ways, etc.

This is an example of what I meant when I said in my first post to you that I thought I was talking calmly and anaytically, and wasn't feeling any flames. To me, this really felt like I was citing some law of physics: If Love Energy is < 100 then Level of Patience decreases in direct porportion to Time Passage. Or something like that, lol. Just a fact of life--not good, not bad, and definitely not meant personally toward you. I used you as a speculative example of this equation because, in my eyes, you had identified yourself as such: you said you had become impatient with a submissive's constant and inappropriate--because repetitive, right?--questions.

Something else about this situation just occurred to me. Do you think she had memory problems, or maybe drug problems that affected her memory or even ADD? These kinds of things, as well as nevousness, would account for that sort of repetition.

"You assume that because I call myself a Dom, I think I know what I am doing. Are you kidding me!"

Well, I automatically assume you have more than a clue, lol, although I am also aware that dominance is not quite an exact science.

You say:

"Perhaps it is the years of experience that I have in r/l skin-to-skin BDSM. Perhaps it is because I am not only a compassionate and caring person, but also an introspective person that I know that I am a good Dom. Perhaps if you had read more of the posts that I have put on this board you would realize that the well-being and happiness of my subs is of the utmost importance to me. But why think like that when it is so much easier to assume the worst and just bash the Dom. "

Oh, I don't question any of that. I read your posts in the threads I get around to reading and most of the time I agree with what you say. Not always, but often enough. I think my problem here has been more of one of saying general stuff that looked personal to you. And while I have experience in a lot of areas of bdsm, one thing I haven't encountered before is a submissive who constantly asks questions or repeats them or seems to be using them to keep her dom at arms length, so I'm hoping you'll say more about that. All I know of is that one sub who'd make in-person dates then break them, over and over again. Her issue was not one of asking too many questions, although she'd often claim as her excuse for cancelling her plane tickets that she didn't know enough about him yet. She was a very beautiful girl and she knew it and I suspect sometimes she was just tesaing him to see how far she could get with him. She was a very mischevious sort--the kind to honk a car horn loudly when her dominant of the moment was under the hood, to see if he'd bang his head (he did--to her great amusement). I know she sounds like a brat, lol, and in many ways she was, but she was also a very charming woman and awfully hard to dislike no matter how naughty she was.

Originally posted by UCE

"And any submissive who believes that about you simply becuase of a title that you ascribe to yourself (dominant) rather than seeing you in action enough to reassure HER and not you--not your timeschedule--hers--because SHE is the one who cannot trust for various reasons, not you. If you stop expecting submissives to respond in the same ways you would if placed in similar circumstances, you will stop being disappointed by them, I think. You have to take and accept a submissive at the point she is at, however low that point may be and bring her to the place you want her to be. "

(This is me in my lecture mode. Again, nothing personal but I bet you didn't like it. I go into lecture mode when I am talking about something that a lot of people get wrong. It's almost like I'm in a classroom and I'm changing my tone to try to get the folks to pay attention, lol. I am actually at my most impersonal when I write like this because I am thinking of the dozens upon dozens of people--none of whom are in this forum, alas--who I wish would really GET this message, lol, and not any one individual. I would never talk this harshly to someone else directly unless I were intentionally flaming them. So I guess that's why you thought I was intentionally flaming you, eh?)

You replied:

"Perhaps this is exactly why I did release her. Because I had demonstrated time and time again that I knew what I was doing and what was best for her. She never had to use a safeword. She never expressed a problem in post-scene communication that we always engaged in. She was just not submissive. She just didn't progress past a certain point. She may have wanted to be submissive, but she just wasn't able to trust me. And trust is the key to a BDSM relationship. Personally, I don't think she will ever trust anyone. And that's fine, it's just not for me. "

It's a hard situation to understand because I wasn't there and words cannot convey her personality to me--only meeting her in person would do that. I can see it happening the way you describe however, it just isn't something I've seen very much of. Was she at all masochistic? I mean (this is my definition of masochism, here) did she get wet when you'd beat her or spank or do other kinds of CP on her?

Originally posted by UCE

That is your responsibility as a dominant. Simply giving up on her, because "she doesn't trust me when I belive she should" is simply abdicating your responsibily and letting her down. Now of course the woman you speak about could have had other personality traits associated with the constant questioning that made you think she would not make a good permanent mate, or perhaps you aren't looking for permanence, I have no way of knowing that, but to just generally state that any woman who doesn't trust you on your own timeschedule or by the time you think they _should_ trust you shows that you have an unrealistic expectation about submissives and until that expectation changes you are going to go through one woman after another, always disappointed becuase none of them can do the impossible.

Ok, right here I _was_ directly talking to you, Zipman. And yeah, wince, I see very clearly now that it is quite harsh. This is something I can change in the future, simply by phrasing my sentences as questions. (Although to tell you the truth, I was thinking to myself, here is a guy who seems to get irritiated with questions. What will he do if I ask him a huge pile of them?) I was basing what I said on the little you'd told the forum about this relationship and thinking it was the complete story. I assumed that you'd given all the salient information and if that was all, then a great deal was missing from the picture. You've explained more of the situation in this second post and filled in some of my gaps of knowledge.

You replied:

"Let me educate you on my responsiblity as a Dominant. I am responsible for providing a safe, sane and consensual relationship and abiding by my sub's limits. I also take responsibility for training her in the way that I wish to be served, to communicate with her to improve the relationship. To help her to be the best submissive that she can be. To be patient and treat her with kindness and respect when we are not "in scene." I am not responsible for being her therapist, for putting her needs before my own or for allowing her to top me from the bottom. That may be how you practice BDSM, personally I really don't care, but it is not how I choose to do it.

"Then you state that maybe it is my sub and not me, but you move away from that pretty quickly to go back to bashing me by speculating that I go through subs "one after the other." Really! How interesting! Did you use the Magic Eight Ball to come up with this one? Or perhaps you read tarot cards about my past relationships. Please tell me how you came upo this gem, I really am curious."

LOLOLOL! My dominant gets exactly this sort of shit from me all the time. Maybe you have a better idea of the extraodinary level of patience he routinely has to exercise. <g> No actually, he doesn't take any of this sort of challenging stuff personally because he knows I don't mean it that way. I didn't have my magic eight ball out for this one, I was simply making what I thought was a logical if-then conclusion, only you were, unfortunately, the subject in the equation.


Originally posted by UCE

What I hope for you is that you meet a woman who is so perfect for you in other ways that you are willing to put up with her need to question you as long as that questioning takes her. I hope that you can begin to see such questioning as a sign of a higly valued trait: critical intelligence and not as an "affront" to your "dominance." Talking about ego, that feeling of affront is all ego my man and not based upon anything realistic.

You replied:

"I don't know why you threw that first sentence in there. Possibly to soften this otherwise flaming post. I'm really not sure but it does not sound that sincere to me."

Naw, it was completely sincere because by my perception when I wrote that long post, I wasn't flaming you to begin with. I always wish that deserving people meet partners they are truly compatible with. It's something that for most of us doesn't come fast or easy.

"So UCE, intelligence is "highly critical."

No! Not all intelligence is critical. It's usually something you have to be trained in or grow up around to acquire. I know plenty of really intelligent people who haven't the ability to think critically. When I qualify intelligence by putting "critical" before it I mean that specific training that causes one to ask, not just questions, but the right questions, and to spot potential flaws or areas that need clarification in somebody else's presentation. And yeah, I was wishing that type on you, lol! I hope that isn't too bad of me! If I were a dominant, that is the only kind of sub I'd be willing to settle down with, but then again, I'm not a dominant so who knows how I'd actually feel when the time came and I was face to face with the uppity bitch?

"I value intelligence quite highly. It is one of the non-negotiable qualities that I look for. And as for the affront that you read in my post. You are absolutely mistaken. You misread my entire post if that is what you think. It is not affront, it is self-doubt. I don't know how I could have made that any clearer."

I don't know the answer to it either, but I do know I didn't pick up on the self-doubt at all. Had I done so, I would have taken a different tone in my post. Said the same things but in a different way.

"Perhaps in your haste to bash me, you read into it what you wanted. I'm not sure and unlike you, I won't read into your motivations when I don't know them."

Heh! Famous last words. You did read into my motivations, obviously. You thought I was flaming you. Do you see yet that this was not true. I was in my head feeling things when I wrote that post and all I felt was my normal posting emotion: enthusiasm for making my points and interest in the topic. I don't even know if you can call those sorts of things emotions--they're more intellectual for me than feelings.

Originally posted by UCE

You started out the message with the right idea: if you have clearly explained to someone all they needed to know and in the way they need to know that information (sometimes the way some subs learn some things involves repetition, saying the same thing in different ways hundreds of times) then they would not still be asking you questions. I wonder if you have thought deeply enough about the emotional difficulties and horrible experiences that a person may have had to make them so questioning and wary (their intellectual training also has to be taken into account--I learned critical thinking in college and the tendency to question EVERYTHING because most of the time people haven't the slightest idea of what the fuck they are talking about has never left me).


"This is tiring, but how do you know that it was the only reason I let her go."

Simply because it was the only reason you explicitly mentioned. I have a tendency to take things people say at face value and think that what I am reading is the complete story. I don't know why I do this, but I do. I assumed, and this was clearly a wrong assumption, that if there had been more, you probably would have said so or at least said something like, "there were of course other things going on with us that made the relationship difficult but these are not relevant to the point I'm trying to make." That's the sort of thing I might have said because I am super paranoid about always covering my ass and not leaving anything out that someone could miss construe into ill-intention. But it was wrong of me to assume that you or that everybody else would write the same way.

"I absolutely disagree with you that a Dom should say things over and over in a hundred different ways until the sub gets it. This is ludicrous!!!!"

Uh, are you sure you want to call my dominant ludricous? I think he outweighs you. This is actually his style of doing things, and he doesn't mind it in the least or find anything ludricous about it.

Ok, look, imagine something equally ludricous for me, as I want to provide a clear example of the kind of communications problem that makes this sort of repetition necessary. Let's say you're having trouble getting your sub to take the mail to the postoffice. She just doesn't do it. Each day when you get home it's still lying there on the hall table. You have conversation after conversation with her about the importance of taking the mail in, how it is her responsibility to do it, you even think to ascertain that she understands clearly what the mail is (she does) and so you continue to tell her to take the mail, she continues to not do it, and you are at your wits end, because you feel that on your end you have been more than patient with her about all of this. You may break up with her (not you personally--this is just my example); you may continue to work with her, but one day you finally discover the root of her problem by _saying something in a different way_: "Do you even know where the post office is, you silly girl?" "NOOOO!" she wails, and then adds, "I don't even know what a post office is!" Never mind the fact that this wouldn't happen in real life--it's the pattern I want you to see. This kind of pattern, where a dominant thinks that something he is saying and a submissive is utterly flabergasted by it and despite being smart cannot explain why she is flabbergasted by it, occurs in many bdsm relationships. These situations certainly occur in mine! They aren't about mundane things like the mail, of course, they're usually about issues like complex emotional reasons for behavior that, because of the way the submissive thinks or her defensive blocks, are very hard for her to hear. Simply repeating the words over and over does NOT get through the block. You have to say what you say in different ways, until you find a phrasing that slips under her defenses and she goes "OH! I see it now! The penny dropped and a huge area of understanding has opened for me." Haven't you ever had that sort of encounter with a submissive? I'm trying to think about why you might have not--don't get defensive on me here, I am just curious. When you take on a submissive, do you try to "fix" her emotionally? Do you see that as part of your responsibility? If you don't, if that isn't an area you insert yourself into, then maybe you often encounter these really defensive emtional blocks that people build up around the things they are sensitive to you. I do know that if you work on her emotions, you will encounter these blocks (sometimes they look like confusion, sometime stubborness) of understanding, where nothing you say about the issue gets through to the submissive until one day, maybe years later, you say it some way that for some reason works.

"The nature of a BDSM relationship is that you discuss limits up front. You communicate aobut needs and desires. Then the Dominant needs to exercise their control and the sub needs to submit. What part about that don't you get."

Here is the problem: it's an oversimplified structure. Although it would be ideal if people worked the way you describe above, they more often than not don't. They can't fit this pattern because it is an unrealistic one. Here's just one example of this: You say, "the dominant needs to exercise their contorl and the sub needs to submit." A three volume book could be written on just how these things are acomplished! And then another four volumes written on what can go wrong when people attempt to do these things. Submissive want to submit but they cannot do it perfectly and easily. Dominants want to control, but sometimes they don't know how to with a particular sort of submissive personality that they haven't had much experience with. Let's go one level deeper into the complexity. An example of a personality that some dominants have never encountered is the pathologically self-destructive sort. By pathological I don't mean that ordinary low self esteem that many of us submissives have, I mean a desire to destroy oneself that is so strong that the woman should be locked up in a hospital room that has no sharp objects in it. There are a few women out there who are like this and who see bdsm dominants as the perfect people to enact their destructiveness with. They see the parts about bdsm that are easy to see: the hitting and the sadism and they think, usually it's an unconscious sort of thing, "That kind of guy will really fuck me up bad, really hurt me, and that's all I deserve!" Well, it's common enough for such people to be drawn to bdsm that some dominants have tried to have relationships with them (my own dominant's very first relationship was with such a girl) but it is impossible to help someone in a bdsm context who is pathologically (i.e. needs to be locked up to prevent herself from detstorying herself) self-destructive. Such a person should not even be in a bdsm relationship, not because they aren't submissive--they might very well be--but because they are in it for all the wrong reasons and they are using it to help further hurt themselves. Remember, they want pure, unadulturated cruelty because they feel that they are so truly evil inside that it's what they deserve. They are looking for someone to punish them, relentlessly and forever. Because they deserve it. Well, when a dominant happens to get involved with such a person, he can, depending on his specific expereince with that sort, be well over his head (if he's had even one experience with that sort, he's probably learned how to avoid other pathologically self-destructive types). The kinds of things he does (or more accurately, doesn't do) with such a "submissive" if he has already commited to her and taken responsibility for her life are vastly different than the sorts of thing he'd do with most other submissives. This is just one tiny exception, one of hundreds that I know of that makes a statement like "dominants dominate and submissives submit" (purposeful paraphrase, just to shorten it) stand for an enormous amount of complexity. And you can't submit that well and certainly not dominate sucessfully if you aren't up to handling these variable situations, all different from one another, any of which could apply to your relationship. It is not simple, it's never simple, and the simple statements you used to describe a bdsm relationship don't even begin to scratch the suface of what can go wrong, how to things so that there is a good likelihood of them going right, etc.

Jesus, I am writing too much!


"Allowing repeated questions about the same topics is not dominating someone. You rapidly fall into doing what the sub wants and they are in control. "

It clearly depends a lot on what you see as the submissive's reasons for asking all those questions. I've tried to provide some examples earlier in my post of situations (think post office) in which the submissive does continue to ask questions because she has normal human defenses against hearing certain hard things that are highly personal. Sometimes people need time to learn to get used to an idea, to learn it won't hurt them too badly to accept it. Maybe (I don't know for sure, just speculating) constant questioning can be a sign that a submissive needs more time with something, especially if the questions all are about one single issue and not about lots of them.

I've been thinking this entire time about mundane life or quiet "talks" time when I've thought about your questioning sub experience. But did these sorts of questions occur after you had her tied (but before the gag, lol) and after she knew in general what was coming in a play session? That is a sort of situation where I would think constant questions are inappropriate and indicative of even a basic minimal sort of trust. They also indicate a sub who might be trying to control the scene by knowing everything that's going to happen in it so they can protest if they don't like something.

"That may be submission to you, but I doubt you will find many people that agree with you. "

I think we're just imagining different examples as we talk about the general stuff.




(I deleted my quote to save space and try to hurry this up.)

You start your reply:

"Again you go back to the broken sub song."

If it's a song, it's playing way to loudly and the chorus is in the tens of thousands. I do go back to what I know well, it's true. And what I know well is what I encounter the most.

You say:

"I have no problem with questions. It is when you are repeatedly questioned that it becomes a problem. The nature of a BDSM relationship is about trust. At the very core, it is about trust. If someone has issues with trust, then they won't be a very good partner. "

Again, I think what's going on here about this whole questions business is that I am not clearly seeing the contexts in which the questions were asked repeatedly.

"One of the things that has been discussed on this board is the fact that there is a perception that Doms are afraid to ask questions and voice their uncertainties without having their reputations as Doms damaged. Negative, assumptive and judgemental posts like yours will only continue this perception."

You're dead wrong on this one, and this is the only statement you've made in your message that has made me the slighest bit angry. My personal experience with my own dominant is that he asks _far too many questions_ and that he is abolutely clear to a fault about telling about about his uncertainties and he doesn't give a damn what anybody thinks about that. And I love that about him. Just because you didn't like what I said to you in my initial post is NO REASON for you to link me up with an entirely unrelated crime. My post, which bears repeating was not negative although perhaps a little judmental given that I assumed I had all the facts, will not add to that perception at all. But you're telling me that I shouldn't post such things as my message does your own cause great harm: it makes you (and by your own extension, other dominants on this board) look like rotton cowards too fearful of their ability to handle a sub's questions to let her speak freely! This may not be the impression you want to convey, but I assure you it's the one I'm reading from the above words, loud and clear. The best you can do, and for the most part you have done it in your response to me, is state things the way you see them, if possible without anger or defensiveness because it's quite possible the individual didn't mean to flame you in the first place, and giving them the benefit of the doubt is a magnimonious things to do, quite befitting of a dominant.

"I for one, have nothing to hide, and am extremely confident in my abilities and the accuracy of my own self-perceptions. Therefore, it will not affect my posting."

And yet you imply above you want me to shut up about writing the kind of post I did. This implies that you cannot deal confidently and securely with what you saw as my accusations, even though in fact you actually did deal with them fine and I know a lot more now than I did when I first wrote. Do you see the contradiction there?

At any rate, this was the only false note I found in your post, and like I said, it pissed me off a bit because it seemed so dishonest to say, "Well, she's been caught accusing me of thing X therefore she must automatically be guilty of promoting concept Y." I don't know what the other dominants' history on this board has been. I don't have time to go back and read the history, nor do I have any idea of where to look. But unless you are faced with an extremely clever and unscrupulous opponent who is extremely skilled at turning your words around so they mean the opposite, you all (you posting doms I mean) are perfectly capable of sticking up for yourselves, especially to a well-meaning individual like myself who clearly (at least I hope it is clear by now) does not have a chip on her shoulder. Don't make the mistake of equating me with some avenging angel (or devil?) from your board's distance past. I like to flatter myself that I am a much more complex individual than that! I am not unscrupulous, I am honest and "hit" when I do hit above the belt. I am the least of your worries...unless you do something utterly despicable, dishonest, and horrible, and even then probably the only thing I will do is put you on ignore.

Unda

 

[UCE]

Wow, I can't believe that long sucker posted! Zipman, if you're satisfied with my explanation, you don't have to put yourself out answering that book I just wrote.,..unless you want to, of course. Dominants have been known to have the occasional masochistic tendency.

 

[~Dream~]

ROFLMFAO! @Unda

that was a totally awesome post and I am NOT Disappointed in it at all ,altho next time you could somehow let me know you were gonna write a novel(lol) so I could,ve got some milk& cookies!!

 

[Guest]

Disappointment is a direct result of unmet expectations.
While communication is key in any relationship, it is surely even more critical in a kinky one. It is equally essential NOT to assume that because both speak English, communication will be easy. As is evident from these posts, what one person reads as funny another finds insulting.
Having time set aside when both Dom/me and sub/slave may speak freely outside of their roles is an important component in the communication process.
Another key component (IMHO) in the communication between Dom/me and sub/slave is the re-evalution of one's BDSM or D/s life and the changes that have occured as a result of the bonding between Dom/me and sub/slave. Discussing the changes with one's Master/Mistress, including perceived improvements, areas of insecurity or confusion, requests for direction, should be a routine part of the relationship, especially in the beginning.
Few of us are able to read silences and emotional responses correctly.
Fewer still are telepathic.

As a submissive, I have been blessed with a Master who frequently commands me to speak my thoughts and having asked for them, does not display anger or disappointment when my answers are other than he wishes. Rather, he uses these times to teach us both more about each other, and the nature of the power exchange that exists between us.
My Master is also willing to listen when I ask to speak. He may not change his action or his mind, but he grants me the room... the space to be an individual.
It is my honor and delight to belong to him.
<jewel>

 

[~Dream~]

jewel..

What a beautiful post and I couldn't agree with it more ,thank-you ..esp THIS PART:
Having time set aside when both Dom/me and sub/slave may speak freely outside of their roles is an important component in the communication process.
Another key component (IMHO) in the communication between Dom/me and sub/slave is the re-evalution of one's BDSM or D/s life and the changes that have occured as a result of the bonding between Dom/me and sub/slave. Discussing the changes with one's Master/Mistress, including perceived improvements, areas of insecurity or confusion, requests for direction, should be a routine part of the relationship, especially in the beginning.
Few of us are able to read silences and emotional responses correctly.
Fewer still are telepathic.


**If the relationship is to Grow ,to Mature ,THAT time most DEFINATELY has to be made .. ty for your post ..

 

[UCE]

Re: ROFLMFAO! @Unda

that was a totally awesome post and I am NOT Disappointed in it at all ,altho next time you could somehow let me know you were gonna write a novel(lol) so I could,ve got some milk& cookies!!

LOL, OK. Next time I find myself straying toward a really long one, I'll add a sentence at the top: GO GET YER COOKIES...DREAM!

 

[zipman]

I have no desire to continue to beat this issue to death. In my original post, just before the I discussed the questions that dissapointments cause me, I said the following:

I think that Doms feel dissapointments just as keenly as submissives do, if not more in some respects. Every dissappointment I have ever felt in a subs behavior always turns into a dissappointment in myself.

I think this clearly indicates that I don't blame my subs for my disappointments, but that I am self critical and question my own domming to see if her actions were my fault. While I thought that I was very clear, if you did not "get" my meaning, then I understand why you chose the "tone" that you did.

I appreciate your taking the time to analyze what you wrote and to see where your posts were insulting. There are a few other points that I would like to make.

When you quote my words and discuss the meaning, I think it is reasonable to assume that the entire thing is being directed towards me. I believe this is how most people would take it. I wouldn't expect someone to mention my name in every sentence for me to think a post was directed towards me.

Maybe other people haven't been exactly honest with you zipman and maybe that's why you read things into my words that were not said. But with me (and maybe with me only, I have no idea) what I say is always exactly what I mean. I have no need to pussyfoot around you or anybody here...and I won't.

I still do not believe I read anything into your posts that wasn't there. I think you were trying to make a point at my expense. I think you took parts of my post and attributed motivations to them and then wrongly speculated on why I wasn't more patient or having successful relationships.

This is me in my lecture mode. Again, nothing personal but I bet you didn't like it.

You're right, I don't. I don't think many other people will be overly receptive to it either. Lecturing at people is not the most productive way of having a discussion as it is often perceived as being confontational or condescending. This is how I take it.

Uh, are you sure you want to call my dominant ludricous? I think he outweighs you. This is actually his style of doing things, and he doesn't mind it in the least or find anything ludricous about it.

I did not call your Dom ludicrous. My point was and is that I feel that allowing a sub to question something repeatedly is ludicrous. That is my viewpoint. If your Dom chooses this type of dynamic and it works for you that is fine. Congratulations. I would not put up with it. You and others on this board (like artful's Dream) have a different opinion on this than I do. That's all. I stand by the post I made and my opinion on this subject. If a sub continually questions her Dom, it is indicative of other issues, around trust and submission. I am not talking about asking a question for knowledge or because they don't understand something. I am talking about questioning and struggling with the simplest of commands and concepts. Some subs get into BDSM for the wrong reasons. Perhaps they feel that they need something in their lives, many people turn to religion in much the same way. Perhaps they like the romaticized notion of submitting, and then when it comes time to do it, they struggle with the actual commands they are given. You state with all your experience you have not encountered this. Well, I have seen this.

I have disagreed with more than a few things that you have stated on these boards. Among those are statements like most subs have the emotional maturity of a 12 year old and that respect should not play a part in BDSM relationships. Couple the fact that I disagree with you with your lecturing and I'm sure that you can understand why I reacted the way I did. I feel that you use your research and writing to try and establish yourself as some kind of authority on the subject. I just post my opinions on subjects based on my experience.

My post, which bears repeating was not negative although perhaps a little judmental given that I assumed I had all the facts, will not add to that perception at all. But you're telling me that I shouldn't post such things as my message does your own cause great harm: it makes you (and by your own extension, other dominants on this board) look like rotton cowards too fearful of their ability to handle a sub's questions to let her speak freely!

And again UCE, I have to disagree you. The point I was trying to make and which I thought was very clear was that I didn't tell you that you shouldn't post such things. What I said and which I feel does require repeating is that when you post a very judgemental resonse to a Dom's post (mine) where the Dom voiced his uncertainties might make others less apt to post. I think admitting uncertainties and self-doubt are healthy. If a sub did that, I would respect their doubts and not attack them for it. And yes, that is exactly what you did. I can handle my subs questions. I encourage my subs to ask questions and I often force the issue to ensure that we have good communication. You are not my sub. You're a member fo this board to me, that's all. I don't judge questions differently here and I would have your post attacking and judgemental whether you were a sub, a switch or a Dom/me.

I think another mistake that you have made is that you are viewing my words through your particular dynamic and not the one that I am writing from. You stated something about you being a "radial submissive slave" forgive me if I misquoted the term you are using. I pratice BDSM to a different degree. BDSM is limited to the bedroom for me, and it is usually done with someone with whom I am engaged in a monogamous relationship. I think you may have viewed my post as directly applying to your situation, which may require a much higher degree of patience. I do not know, so I won't speculate on it.

There were a lot of things that I disagreed with in your post UCE. But to write novels on each post is not my style, nor my desire. The bottom line is that you can post however you want on this board UCE, just as I will. I think a lot depends on what you want to get out of this board. Obviously, you're posting style puts some people off as does your method of interacting with them. Make your own choices, and live with them.

 

[SierraMoon]

i love the way you communicate, Zip!
Very concise, respectful, and knowledgeable.
you are awesome!!