Disappointments

[zipman]

Re: Re: Great Thread Artful

UCE,

I have to tell you how surprised and disappointed I was by your post. I wrote a few sentences which you have turned around and used to insinuate things about me that you have no way of knowing. It is easy to take a sentence out of the context of the entire post and twist it to try and make someone else look bad.

To be honest, I wouldn't have even replied to it had this not been done on a public board. You have made inaccurate assumptions about my abilities as a Dom that I feel I have to respond to. Therefore, I will go through your post and correct each of your misperceptions, point by point.

Zipman asks:

"What did I do wrong? Why is she doubting me? How often do I have to prove I know what is best for her in this situation? "

I can answer this last question for you: as long as it takes. Some submissives are much more wary than others; some submissives have a much greater ability to think critically than others (this is a sign of intelligence--you should be proud to be associated with anybody who can think this way even if it does mean the hassle of extra questions); some submissives have been burnt so badly before by idiots that they must question everything, and question for a long time before they can finally, eventually conclude that you are safe and really let their guard down. I was one of the latter. I joke to people that it takes me at least three years to trust someone to even be a good friend, let alone a lover who makes all the decisions about me...but it's actually true. I think it took me at least five years before I fully trusted my master.

Granted there are other reasons for constant questioning and some of those have to do with a submissive having a personality that simply doesn't mesh well with your own.

Is that the only reason that a sub might repeatedly question a Dom? Because she has been damaged? Perhaps she is more interested in the fantasy of BDSM and not the reality, which has been more my experience when dealing with repeated questioning. Perhaps she is trying to top form the bottom. If you want to know my views on how a sub should act, read WillowPuss' posts from the first page of this thread. She is an incredible sub!

But man, I think you go too far when you say:

"It's a bout trust. Either you do or you don't. "

In my experience trust by the submissive of the dominant is a process containing hundreds of shades of gray. It isn't a lightswitch that's either on or off. There's no trust at all, a little trust, a little more trust, etc... and each of these stages CAN lead to even further trust IF the dominant doesn't get impatient and call a halt to the process prematurely. Trust is earned: and with people who have very good reason not to trust anybody about anything, it is earned very slowly and gradually.

That's your opinion. I didn't suggest it was a lightswitch. I think that trust is earned over time. But how much time does one wish to wait. That is a personal issue, and it is different for each of us. After one year, I felt that the type of questions that she was asking and the commands she had trouble performing were already discussed repeatedly. I viewed this as an indicator of poor compatability between us. It is my right as a Dom, just as it is the right of a sub to end a BDSM relationship if it is not working. That is what I did. What gives you the right to judge whether or not it was "premature?" Were you there? Had you seen our interactions? No, but that doesn't stop you from suggesting that it must be my (the Dom's fault) for not being patient enough. Trust is earned over time, on both sides. Perhaps she does have trust issues which will inhibit her from having any kind of successful relationship.

Perhaps you personally do not have the patience necessary to put up with building trust in a very mistrustful person--if so you ought to stay away from very hurt submissives (if you can, that is, most of us have been really screwed by life long before we meet you). But I don't think you can assume that just because... "There is a tremendous amount of responsibility involved in being a Dom. Making decisions based on what your sub needs, even if she doesn't realize that she needs it. " that you personally therefore have the personal qualities that make you capable of meeting those responsibilities simply becuase you choose to think of yourself as dominant.

This is where you get really offensive as you question both my patience and my ability to Dom here. You assume that because I call myself a Dom, I think I know what I am doing. Are you kidding me! Perhaps it is the years of experience that I have in r/l skin-to-skin BDSM. Perhaps it is because I am not only a compassionate and caring person, but also an introspective person that I know that I am a good Dom. Perhaps if you had read more of the posts that I have put on this board you would realize that the well-being and happiness of my subs is of the utmost importance to me. But why think like that when it is so much easier to assume the worst and just bash the Dom.

And any submissive who believes that about you simply becuase of a title that you ascribe to yourself (dominant) rather than seeing you in action enough to reassure HER and not you--not your timeschedule--hers--because SHE is the one who cannot trust for various reasons, not you. If you stop expecting submissives to respond in the same ways you would if placed in similar circumstances, you will stop being disappointed by them, I think. You have to take and accept a submissive at the point she is at, however low that point may be and bring her to the place you want her to be.

Perhaps this is exactly why I did release her. Because I had demonstrated time and time again that I knew what I was doing and what was best for her. She never had to use a safeword. She never expressed a problem in post-scene communication that we always engaged in. She was just not submissive. She just didn't progress past a certain point. She may have wanted to be submissive, but she just wasn't able to trust me. And trust is the key to a BDSM relationship. Personally, I don't think she will ever trust anyone. And that's fine, it's just not for me.

That is your responsibility as a dominant. Simply giving up on her, because "she doesn't trust me when I belive she should" is simply abdicating your responsibily and letting her down. Now of course the woman you speak about could have had other personality traits associated with the constant questioning that made you think she would not make a good permanent mate, or perhaps you aren't looking for permanence, I have no way of knowing that, but to just generally state that any woman who doesn't trust you on your own timeschedule or by the time you think they _should_ trust you shows that you have an unrealistic expectation about submissives and until that expectation changes you are going to go through one woman after another, always disappointed becuase none of them can do the impossible.

Let me educate you on my responsiblity as a Dominant. I am responsible for providing a safe, sane and consensual relationship and abiding by my sub's limits. I also take responsibility for training her in the way that I wish to be served, to communicate with her to improve the relationship. To help her to be the best submissive that she can be. To be patient and treat her with kindness and respect when we are not "in scene." I am not responsible for being her therapist, for putting her needs before my own or for allowing her to top me from the bottom. That may be how you practice BDSM, personally I really don't care, but it is not how I choose to do it.

Then you state that maybe it is my sub and not me, but you move away from that pretty quickly to go back to bashing me by speculating that I go through subs "one after the other." Really! How interesting! Did you use the Magic Eight Ball to come up with this one? Or perhaps you read tarot cards about my past relationships. Please tell me how you came upo this gem, I really am curious.

What I hope for you is that you meet a woman who is so perfect for you in other ways that you are willing to put up with her need to question you as long as that questioning takes her. I hope that you can begin to see such questioning as a sign of a higly valued trait: critical intelligence and not as an "affront" to your "dominance." Talking about ego, that feeling of affront is all ego my man and not based upon anything realistic.

I don't know why you threw that first sentence in there. Possibly to soften this otherwise flaming post. I'm really not sure but it does not sound that sincere to me. So UCE, intelligence is "highly critical." I value intelligence quite highly. It is one of the non-negotiable qualities that I look for. And as for the affront that you read in my post. You are absolutely mistaken. You misread my entire post if that is what you think. It is not affront, it is self-doubt. I don't know how I could have made that any clearer. Perhaps in your haste to bash me, you read into it what you wanted. I'm not sure and unlike you, I won't read into your motivations when I don't know them.

You started out the message with the right idea: if you have clearly explained to someone all they needed to know and in the way they need to know that information (sometimes the way some subs learn some things involves repetition, saying the same thing in different ways hundreds of times) then they would not still be asking you questions. I wonder if you have thought deeply enough about the emotional difficulties and horrible experiences that a person may have had to make them so questioning and wary (their intellectual training also has to be taken into account--I learned critical thinking in college and the tendency to question EVERYTHING because most of the time people haven't the slightest idea of what the fuck they are talking about has never left me).

This is tiring, but how do you know that it was the only reason I let her go. I absolutely disagree with you that a Dom should say things over and over in a hundred different ways until the sub gets it. This is ludicrous!!!! The nature of a BDSM relationship is that you discuss limits up front. You communicate aobut needs and desires. Then the Dominant needs to exercise their control and the sub needs to submit. What part about that don't you get. Allowing repeated questions about the same topics is not dominating someone. You rapidly fall into doing what the sub wants and they are in control. That may be submission to you, but I doubt you will find many people that agree with you.

"Not NEEDING to explain yourself is part of what this is all about. That is where the trust comes into play."

I still assert that this is a play idea that looks pretty on paper, that dominants would love to be true, and is easy to fake online (not suggesting you've had online relationships--I don't get that from your messages) but never works in real life. A woman who doesn't question you has probably had all the spirit beaten out of her already or she is as dumb as a doorknob. A woman who does question you and your reasons for making decisions may be a big pain in the butt, but at least she's got the intelligence, perhaps, to keep you entertained for the rest of your life--not something to lightly discard! If she has other personality traits that you like, exercising considerable patience in the question-answering department and realizing that each person is different in this regard and that it will take as long as it takes not as long as you or any authority thinks it should take may help you to not just to win the love of the best submissive for you, but to _keep_ it.

Again you go back to the broken sub song. I have no problem with questions. It is when you are repeatedly questioned that it becomes a problem. The nature of a BDSM relationship is about trust. At the very core, it is about trust. If someone has issues with trust, then they won't be a very good partner.

One of the things that has been discussed on this board is the fact that there is a perception that Doms are afraid to ask questions and voice their uncertainties without having their reputations as Doms damaged. Negative, assumptive and judgemental posts like yours will only continue this perception. I for one, have nothing to hide, and am extremely confident in my abilities and the accuracy of my own self-perceptions. Therefore, it will not affect my posting.

 

[~Dream~]

YET another Good point Unda

Originally posted by UCE
You started out the message with the right idea: if you have clearly explained to someone all they needed to know and in the way they need to know that information (sometimes the way some subs learn some things involves repetition, saying the same thing in different ways hundreds of times) then they would not still be asking you questions. I wonder if you have thought deeply enough about the emotional difficulties and horrible experiences that a person may have had to make them so questioning and wary (their intellectual training also has to be taken into account--I learned critical thinking in college and the tendency to question EVERYTHING because most of the time people haven't the slightest idea of what the fuck they are talking about has never left me).


WE SUBS LEARN IN OUR OWN ways ,ways that are comfortable for *US* not to be "DICTATED TO' OR 'PREACHED AT" by some assinine Dom and yet that's what some Dom's are pretty darn "insensitive" ... thank God ,mine is NOT ... Artful gets just as upset as the next person when I question over and over and HE does HOWEVER UNDERSTAND NY VERY real need TO BE HEARD THO AND i FEEL that is an important concept that all Dom's need to know... JMHO and i OWN IT ..

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: Re: Great Thread Artful

One of the things that has been discussed on this board is the fact that there is a perception that Doms are afraid to ask questions and voice their uncertainties without having their reputations as Doms damaged. Negative, assumptive and judgemental posts like yours will only continue this perception. I for one, have nothing to hide, and am extremely confident in my abilities and the accuracy of my own self-perceptions. Therefore, it will not affect my posting.

Welcome to the club Zipman.

I seems that Dom/me bashing is in vogue...again.
I know in my own situation, because I refuse to rise to the bait of publically dissecting my successful long-term AND short-term D/s relationships in a public forum, I am accused of being jealous, afraid, and incompetent. As a lifestyle Domme, neither my life nor my submissives' lives will be detailed as a source ot titillation for this or any other forum. I live skin-to-skin, I am not here to make anyone feel better or worse by comparison. I am here to share information and exchange views.

It seems that some subs here forget that some there are some submissives who do not relish the personal, intimate details of their lives displayed in a porn site. My boys (and I) do not like drama.

I too have never deviated from my initial posting style started when I joined Literotica. I too will continue to post how I see fit.

I applaud your integrity zipman.

Ebonyfire <I live it, not fantasize about it>

 

[zipman]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Great Thread Artful

Welcome to the club Zipman.

I seems that Dom/me bashing is in vogue...again.
I know in my own situation, because I refuse to rise to the bait of publically dissecting my successful long-term AND short-term D/s relationships in a public forum, I am accused of being jealous, afraid, and incompetent. As a lifestyle Domme, neither my life nor my submissives' lives will be detailed as a source ot titillation for this or any other forum. I live skin-to-skin, I am not here to make anyone feel better or worse by comparison. I am here to share information and exchange views.

It seems that some subs here forget that some there are some submissives who do not relish the personal, intimate details of their lives displayed in a porn site. My boys (and I) do not like drama.

I too have never deviated from my initial posting style started when I joined Literotica. I too will continue to post how I see fit.

I applaud your integrity zipman.

Ebonyfire <I live it, not fantasize about it>

Thanks Eb. I respect your decision to not post things from your personal relationships. To be honest, I have posted things from my past and present relationship as a means of providing an example. However, I may have to rethink the benefits of doing that.

I really didn't want to respond to UCE's post, but as I felt it was so inappropriate and off the mark, I really felt as if I had no choice.

I find it amusing that some of the subs who have posted here think that if you do not tolerate endless questioning, there is something wrong with you. They abdicate all responsiblity for the relationship onto the Dom. The posts that WillowPuss made at the beginning of this thread articulate submission better than I have ever heard it articulated before. She is someone who does a hell of a lot more than talk about it, she lives it.

Thanks again for the kind words.

 

[~Dream~]

re" Master

I am so HAPPY that You and You alone have made all my fantasies into the REALITY of what now is *US* .. I just had to say that as we go on about our R/l Ldr together ,I know things will only get BETTER for us both baby ,thank-you for your Patience in seeing me your slave ,through all my "disappointments " ... see ya later tonite Master

 

[artful]

Great Thread Artful

UCE,

I have to tell you how surprised and disappointed I was by your post. I wrote a few sentences which you have turned around and used to insinuate things about me that you have no way of knowing. It is easy to take a sentence out of the context of the entire post and twist it to try and make someone else look bad.

Zip,...I just want to publicly state,..."I fully support your rebuttal."

 

[Ghost's amaris]

Zipman,

There was nothing wrong with what you posted. Please dont feel that you cannot post about things here. This thread is here for people to come and discuss thing and be safe doing it.

Ghost's amaris

 

[Daddyslilpet]

Re: Re: Re: Great Thread Artful

<snip>

Let me educate you on my responsiblity as a Dominant. I am responsible for providing a safe, sane and consensual relationship and abiding by my sub's limits. I also take responsibility for training her in the way that I wish to be served, to communicate with her to improve the relationship. To help her to be the best submissive that she can be. To be patient and treat her with kindness and respect when we are not "in scene." I am not responsible for being her therapist, for putting her needs before my own or for allowing her to top me from the bottom. That may be how you practice BDSM, personally I really don't care, but it is not how I choose to do it.

<snip>

This is tiring, but how do you know that it was the only reason I let her go. I absolutely disagree with you that a Dom should say things over and over in a hundred different ways until the sub gets it. This is ludicrous!!!! The nature of a BDSM relationship is that you discuss limits up front. You communicate aobut needs and desires. Then the Dominant needs to exercise their control and the sub needs to submit. What part about that don't you get. Allowing repeated questions about the same topics is not dominating someone. You rapidly fall into doing what the sub wants and they are in control. That may be submission to you, but I doubt you will find many people that agree with you.

<snip>

Zipman, please forgive the <snips> to your post, but these two paragraphs were what I wanted to comment on.

Thank you so much for how you described the Dominant's responsibility in the first paragraph. That is exactly how I feel it should be, and how it is in my relationship.

As for the second paragraph....again....bravo zipman. If I were to constantly question Master after He had made a decision then I would be wrong. Questioning up to the decision for clarification purposes are what I see as upfront communication and discussion of limits and such as that. After Master makes the decision, it is MY job to abide by what He has decided. Hence the term submissive.

I know that my views are not popular with some, and that's ok too. We each have our own minds. I'm not attacking anyone, just stating my viewpoint to add to the discussion.

~smile~
dixi

 

[artful]

Great Thread Artful

To be honest, I have posted things from my past and present relationship as a means of providing an example. However, I may have to rethink the benefits of doing that.

Your past and present relationships are EXPERIENCE in *REALITY*. Reality is what we need MORE of in this Forum,...I quite agree with your opinion of Willow's post.

Also,...if all would read cym's post on this thread,...there is MUCH value there, if subs would only *DIG* for it,...sift through it,...then *THINK* about it.

REALITY is where we ALL live,...like it or not. Theories and Fantasy have their rightful place, but when it comes RIGHT down to it,..."Can ya LIVE it?"

(Now,...back to Disappointments, and how do you handle them,...anymore EXAMPLES?)

(JMHO),...but it's mine,...and I own it.

 

[zipman]

About my post

Artful - Thank you. I do appreciate the support!

Ghosts' Amaris - As I stated, I will continue to post as I see fit. The only thing I was reconsidering was whether or not to continue to post personal things about my past or present relationships. When you see something harmless that you have written turned around like that, it makes you wonder what about the more personal posts that you have made could be twisted into. Thanks for commenting!

 

[Daddyslilpet]

Art,

I try to handle disappointments with grace and dignity, but sometimes I don't manage it well, in all honesty.

I do my best to not argue with Master over things that I want that he's decided I don't need. I am still working on that one...and getting better at it with each passing day.

~smile~
dixi

 

[artful]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Great Thread Artful

Zipman, please forgive the <snips> to your post, but these two paragraphs were what I wanted to comment on.

Thank you so much for how you described the Dominant's responsibility in the first paragraph. That is exactly how I feel it should be, and how it is in my relationship.

As for the second paragraph....again....bravo zipman. If I were to constantly question Master after He had made a decision then I would be wrong. Questioning up to the decision for clarification purposes are what I see as upfront communication and discussion of limits and such as that. After Master makes the decision, it is MY job to abide by what He has decided. Hence the term submissive.

I know that my views are not popular with some, and that's ok too. We each have our own minds. I'm not attacking anyone, just stating my viewpoint to add to the discussion.

~smile~
dixi

I support your posts also dixi. They come from your heart,...and are expressed as TRUTHS. Truth is what we ALL should be searching for,...and I am so glad to see TRUTH displayed throughout this thread by many.

Thanks to you all. Keep on coming,...it's WORTH the effort,...SOME of us will LEARN by reading your truths.

 

[zipman]

Sorry

For hijacking the thread Artful. Although in retrospect, I did show how I handle being disappointed by a post.

 

[artful]

Re: Sorry

For hijacking the thread Artful. Although in retrospect, I did show how I handle being disappointed by a post.

Well said Zip,...but let me make this post, one more opportunity to express to you, and ALL the Forum Members. No apology is ever needed at ANY of my threads for so called *Hijackings*.

In other Forums, I MIGHT be offended, but not in this one. The Forum Members here have REAL issues to deal with,...and they should be dealt with,...whether on one of my threads or not.

(In other words, "I am not *Disappointed*.")

 

[~Dream~]

Master..

very rarely gets *disappointed* by anything ,I strive to become more patient like Him and more tolerant of people's opinions whether I feel them to be *positive* or * negative*..

 

[~Dream~]

I decided to re-post to this..

Just a disclaimer here, folks: this is for purposes of discussion and not meant to judge anyone. K? K.

I've personally never wanted to get involved in an LDR, especially a BDSM relationship, for exactly the reasons brought up by Dream. And, no, I'm not saying that Dream is "wrong" or making a "mistake". She is a complete human being and has willing made a decision that she feels best for her.
In Dream's situation, that trust has had to build online and over the phone. Artful and Dream have only had one long weekend together to try to forge that bond in person. And that is difficult. Not insurmountable, certainly. It has been done before.

Actually, I can understand much of what Dream is talking about. I've met Doms who look at any question as being a "ding" against their authority and better judgement. Some subs can accept this and move on. I'm one of those who cannot. I question everything. I don't cause arguments, I simply question. Now, once a complete trust is established, I do question less and less, until I simply get to the point where I fully accept what he says/does. But that takes time. Well, at least for me, but then, I'm rather cautious. ***> As trust is more established between Master and I ,I WILL also question less & less ..<






<snip>
I've heard from several people that one should "just submit". Well, okay, on a computer screen that looks really good. Real life throws some wrenches into that concept. <snip>

Trust, for me, is given in increments. As it is earned, it is given. I do not meet a Dom, have an hour or two (or week) of conversation and say, "Yes, I trust you totally with all I have and will submit totally to you." My submission may be given, but it is given on the basis of trust. And since my trust is given in increments, guess what? My submission is given the same way. If a Dom can gain my trust quickly, than I am more able and willing to get to a point of full and complete submission.>very BIG *IF*
<snip>
But, again, what I am doing is skin to skin. This is much, much more difficult to do online.(Online Ldr's are a bitch ,period!!) Doubts and disappoints can seem much more intense. Being able to look into some one's eyes, or hear their voice, or see their body language goes far to diminish doubt. Also, being in a position where a Dom can hold his sub when he knows she needs it, being able to simple touch him - does much to push away fears.(EXACTLY!!)


>Subs should be heard. They should be Allowed to Question - Especially initially when all is new and the complete trust is not yet there. There should be patience and understanding, knowing that both parties are building towards something beautiful and amazing. Doubts, disappointments, hurt feelings left to fester like an open sore will undermine and ruin a relationship, in my opinion*(and also in MINE *.

** That was Exactly what I was talking about with the Questioning issue>Subs should be HEARD ,period.. They Need to be and DESERVE to be ,even as much as the Dom needs to be OBEYED... In a healthy relationship ,if communication does NOT meet the NEEDS of BOTH then it Will lead to more& more *Disappointments * indeed..I feel both parties should learn to listen with not just the Mind ,but with the HEART also .. JMHO ,but just like Master OWNS me ,I own IT ..

 

[Daddyslilpet]

Re: I decided to re-post to this..

<snip>
Actually, I can understand much of what Dream is talking about. I've met Doms who look at any question as being a "ding" against their authority and better judgement. Some subs can accept this and move on. I'm one of those who cannot. I question everything. I don't cause arguments, I simply question. Now, once a complete trust is established, I do question less and less, until I simply get to the point where I fully accept what he says/does. But that takes time. Well, at least for me, but then, I'm rather cautious. ***> As trust is more established between Master and I ,I WILL also question less & less ..<

Dream I've snipped this and bolded the part that I think is what are your words and not Chele's. I'd like to ask you some questions, not to upset you but to get clarification and understanding.

I've read in other posts elsewhere on this board that Artful and yourself have been in this relationship since May of this year, and you accepted his collar Aug 12th on his birthday. So in two days time you'll have been collared for two months, and the relationship as a whole will be about 5 months this month.

Now my question is, how long does it take for you to trust someone whom you say you love as much as you love Art? I know its an ongoing thing, don't get me wrong, I do not mean to imply that trust should be immediate. However, in this amount of time shouldn't you at least trust him some?

<snip>
>Subs should be heard. They should be Allowed to Question - Especially initially when all is new and the complete trust is not yet there. There should be patience and understanding, knowing that both parties are building towards something beautiful and amazing. Doubts, disappointments, hurt feelings left to fester like an open sore will undermine and ruin a relationship, in my opinion*(and also in MINE *.

** That was Exactly what I was talking about with the Questioning issue>Subs should be HEARD ,period.. They Need to be and DESERVE to be ,even as much as the Dom needs to be OBEYED... In a healthy relationship ,if communication does NOT meet the NEEDS of BOTH then it Will lead to more& more *Disappointments * indeed..I feel both parties should learn to listen with not just the Mind ,but with the HEART also .. JMHO ,but just like Master OWNS me ,I own IT ..

Dream, I do believe subs have a right to be heard. That said let me explain what I mean by that. I believe the sub has the right and responsibility to communicate with the Master their thoughts and feelings on any subject to aide in the decision making process. It is then the Master that makes the decision, and once the decision is made, it is then the subs responsibility to STOP questioning.

You dishonor your Master by continuing to question his decision making abilities...pure and simple. Dream I understand how hard it is to have an online LDR BDSM relationship.......I had one. Mine was strictly online and prior to my husband and I deciding this is what we wanted for us.

Disappointments can be avoided in this respect, by learning or deciding that you are going to trust your Master to make a decision without having to question him to death about the outcome. I'm sorry if any of this has upset you, that was not my intent. These are just some things that I thought about while reading the reposting you put up. JMHO not meant to hurt but to try and help out a fellow sub.

~smile~
dixi

 

[~Dream~]

Re:~Dixie~

Thank you for your post and you will come to realize I'm sure as others will also as I become more aware ofwho I really am inside and learn to release my very REAL fears I had to Artful ,that I INDEED have started trusting Him more and more
I believe it took us almost LOSING each other to really realize how much we truly LOVE each other. with some people ,it just works that way.

I know that you do mean to help me and I see that now ,my problem was I was always trying to'compare' myself with you or to Willow and that's just WRONG period. I am just ME ,Dream .. I am who I am and more importantly ,I AM Artful's...

I recently reached deep inside and came clean with Master about some resentment that I had been holding against Him about blaming Him for *US* being apart,which was dead wrong of me. He has no more control over that than I do but I was reacting from the "hurt' and lonliness I was experiencing without Him here,period . that resentment was holding me back from trusting Him,I dont really expect you to understand OR believe that ,but I have no reason to lie .. As Master will tell all,I am a very honest woman...always have been .. sometimes my insecurities get the best of me and I lash out at others cause I feel I am constantly having to 'defend myself ' when I I really want is to be accepted ,AS I am ,the way Artful accepts me...

Yes tomorrow may indeed be only 2 short months since I have worn His collar,however they have been 2 of the most MEANINGFUL months of my life Dixie ,that I swear... I thank you for your heartfelt caring for me as a fellow submissive , I miss you on the forum... I would like you to know because of my recent friend Ghost's amaris ,I have been communicating alot clearer and am alot closer to trusting Master each day ,alot of my mistrust still lies in the fact of my past abusive relationships tho ,in my OWN time ,i ill "let go' of that also ,Master understands this.. My love and commitment to Him and to Our relationship,could not possibly be stronger .. Trust ,this TOO shall come .. ty for your time ,Dixie..

 

[artful]

Re: Master..

very rarely gets *disappointed* by anything ,I strive to become more patient like Him and more tolerant of people's opinions whether I feel them to be *positive* or * negative*..

I re-read this thread from time to time. Going back and sifting the contents, digging for those little *jewels* that I so often overlook. Today, I browsed it again, and re-read Dreams quoted post again.

As many times as I have read it,...I have wanted to CLARIFY my thoughts on what Dream said, and present them to the Forum. Today, I will attempt to do so.

It isn't that I get *disappointed*,...RARELY. I get disappointed as often as anyone else. How I *control* my emotions, how I *DEAL* with my disappointments is just not *VISIBLE*,...usually.

I have always concentrated on not outwardly *showing* my emotions publicly. INSIDE myself, sometimes, I just want to cry, sometimes, I just want to hang my head, sometimes I just want to, ~!@#$%^&*()*&^%$#@!~, and lash out verbally.

I go through the same spectrum of emotions that others do, and sometimes, I do lose my *control*, but NOT often. Do I over REPRESS my emotions? I don't think so.

I LQQK inside myself after I experience disappointments, evaluate WHY I was disappointed, submit my feelings to analysis, and usually come up with,..."Hmmm, my expectations weren't met."

Sometimes I find my expectations were unrealistic, and sometimes, I find I was at fault, sometimes, ...It was just not meant to be. Is it the *best* way to handle disappointments? I don't know,...but it's how I deal with them.

(course,...ya'll know I am a control freak)

 

[zipman]

Re: Re: Master..

<snip>
I LQQK inside myself after I experience disappointments, evaluate WHY I was disappointed, submit my feelings to analysis, and usually come up with,..."Hmmm, my expectations weren't met."

Sometimes I find my expectations were unrealistic, and sometimes, I find I was at fault, sometimes, ...It was just not meant to be. Is it the *best* way to handle disappointments? I don't know,...but it's how I deal with them.

(course,...ya'll know I am a control freak)

Artful,

Two of the conclusions that you come to after analyzing your disappointments both place the blame on you. The last seems to place it on fate. Are you suggesting that whenever you are disappointed, it is always your fault? Or are you taking responsibility for something that can be outside your control?

I'm just curious about your post and want to understand it better.

 

[artful]

Re: Re: Re: Master..

Artful,

Two of the conclusions that you come to after analyzing your disappointments both place the blame on you. The last seems to place it on fate. Are you suggesting that whenever you are disappointed, it is always your fault? Or are you taking responsibility for something that can be outside your control?

I'm just curious about your post and want to understand it better.

Thanks for the question Zip. I thought about this quite a bit before I posted. There are times that OTHERS disappoint me, and I do my BEST to not *blame* them for MY disappointment,...but sometimes I fail at that.

As far as BLAMING myself for MY disappointments,...I try not to place FAULT there either, (sometimes it *IS* my fault though). I may be missing something here,...but I did say that SOMETIMES,...I recognise a disappointment as something that, "sometimes, ...It was just not meant to be."

BLAMING, or FAULTING myself, or someone else for MY disappointments is NOT what I seek. Learning what CAUSED my *disappointment*,...IS.

 

[UCE]

Re: Re: Unda's post

____________________

Unda>Thank-you no1 for saying that the things that I SAID in my post were important,I appreciate the validation of my feelings being important as they ARE-to ME...

They were also important ideas to me personally, they made me think about my own relationship and other peoples' and how this stuff all works. I'm going to reply to you message tommorow because it's a long one and I have to go to bed soon. Just wanted you to know I saw it.

in the meantime, gaze upon a woman whose butt is as big as a pumpkin! (hmmm...she reminds me of me

 

[UCE]

Re: Re: Re: Great Thread Artful

UCE,

I have to tell you how surprised and disappointed I was by your post. I wrote a few sentences which you have turned around and used to insinuate things about me that you have no way of knowing. It is easy to take a sentence out of the context of the entire post and twist it to try and make someone else look bad.

Woah! Wait! Slow down! Eeek! Realize that this is brand new to me. I saw you used the word flaming used to characterize my post later on. I didn't feel like I did any sort of flaming or bashing of you in my message. I also don't think I'm insinuating things about you, just talking about patterns I've seen in my past and with other people, but I may have by accident so I will read your response in detail tommorow to try to figure out what's going on. But trust me on one thing: I wrote that post like I write most of my posts--without any emotions at all except a mildy enthusiastic desire to tell what I know. There was _nothing Personal_ in it. I assume that you tell me what you saw as personal slams later in your message. I'll look for that when I read the full thing.

As opposed to Dom bashing, Zipman and EB, perhaps the problem here is that some of the dominants on this board are bit touchy? I don't know what EB's issues are, but I'm talking to you, Zipman, in this thread, just as I'd talk to my own dominant: striaghtfoward, truthful, not playing games, trying to say exactly what I mean without beating around the bush. But maybe I've been spoiled by him. He doesn't insist I assume some sort of respectful posture in stating what I state. He just wants me to lay it out for him, no matter how harsh and it could be I don't know how harsh I come off to others, especially when I am not pissed or anything at them. I am habitually used to communicating this way, however, so it may take me awhile before I learn not to press people's buttons.

I was actually showing you respect by treating you the way I'd treat my master. When I disrespect people I coddle them and flatter them and give the Unda "Lite N Easy on the Reality" treatment to because I know they can't deal with myself as I am. This is important: I have no reason to flame you: why would I? I don't even know you. I was just commenting on what you specifically said in your message and what it meant to me.

Anyway, I'm sorry you felt bad by what I said. It was not intended angrily or to flame you or to put you down in any way. I'll try to explan that in detail when I read your whole message and see where you responses go, OK? Probably tommorow sometime.

Unda

 

[WillowPuss]

I have just re-visited this thread and am saddened to see the argument about questioning a Dom/me is still raging.

I stand by a paragraph in my original post:

"As for your last question ... once Master has made up his mind, I will not try to change it. Even if I think the decision is wrong, I will not try to change it. If, over the coming days/weeks/months time and circumstances prove me to be right - I do not regret bowing to His will. That is what I offered him when I offered my submission. That is what He deserves - anything less from me and we would just be playing, pretending as it were, to live the lifestyle - not actually doing it.
If I continued to argue/discuss the point in an attempt to change His mind, wouldn't I be topping Him. This is something I have no urge to do ... and so guard against it.


A point has been made that to not question takes trust.
I agree, it does.
The question is then - just how long does it take one to trust antother? How long is the excuse of being new to a relationship going to be made as a reason not to trust? In other words - how 'new' is new?

I have built friendships over the net - so, OK, they are not *love* relationships (though some I have made friends with I love dearly) in the way LDR's are discussed here - but ... after a month or so of really talking and getting to know as much as I can about somebody, I do trust them. I trust them with personal information about myself and family that many people just do not glimpse.

Now, UCE said that somebody who has been emotionally beaten (my translation of her words) takes longer to trust. I would beg to differ. This is not always the case. Maybe a trusting nature is part of a person's make-up, I don't know ... however, I do know that I had every reason never to trust the male of the species again by the time I reached my 19th birthday - but I did. (And I am not going to type it out here - so don't even ask!)

Each time I meet somebody new I make a concious decision to trust them, to treat them in exactly the manner I would wish to be treated myself. I trust them to always be truthful with me, not to harm me intentionally.

Perhaps I have been fortunate - I have only been disappointed a couple of times. Once was the boss I had in my previous job. With her, I did all I could to please her, and once she showed me clearly that whatever I did would never be good enough, I left the job. The other was an on-line friend I made. I also met her in r/l. She turned out to be a class 1 bitch who had treated me in a manner hat she treats everyone eventually. I was completely bowled over by her treatment of me - and after asking for clarification on a couple of points (which, naturally, I didn't get) I just closed off all communication with her.

So - my point - after this long ramble ... if you cannot trust yourself to trust somebody with whom you are hoping to build a lasting relationship, then I would possibly suggest it is time to consider cutting your losses and moving on. Conversly, if you have done all you possibly can to show somebody your are worthy of their trust and still they question your every word and decision, then maybe it is time to face the fact that maybe they will never change and it is time to consider cutting your losses and moving on.

 

[artful]

WillowPuss

I have just re-visited this thread and am saddened to see the argument about questioning a Dom/me is still raging.

I stand by a paragraph in my original post:

"As for your last question ... once Master has made up his mind, I will not try to change it. Even if I think the decision is wrong, I will not try to change it. If, over the coming days/weeks/months time and circumstances prove me to be right - I do not regret bowing to His will. That is what I offered him when I offered my submission. That is what He deserves - anything less from me and we would just be playing, pretending as it were, to live the lifestyle - not actually doing it.
If I continued to argue/discuss the point in an attempt to change His mind, wouldn't I be topping Him. This is something I have no urge to do ... and so guard against it.


A point has been made that to not question takes trust.
I agree, it does.
The question is then - just how long does it take one to trust antother? How long is the excuse of being new to a relationship going to be made as a reason not to trust? In other words - how 'new' is new?

I have built friendships over the net - so, OK, they are not *love* relationships (though some I have made friends with I love dearly) in the way LDR's are discussed here - but ... after a month or so of really talking and getting to know as much as I can about somebody, I do trust them. I trust them with personal information about myself and family that many people just do not glimpse.

Now, UCE said that somebody who has been emotionally beaten (my translation of her words) takes longer to trust. I would beg to differ. This is not always the case. Maybe a trusting nature is part of a person's make-up, I don't know ... however, I do know that I had every reason never to trust the male of the species again by the time I reached my 19th birthday - but I did. (And I am not going to type it out here - so don't even ask!)

Each time I meet somebody new I make a concious decision to trust them, to treat them in exactly the manner I would wish to be treated myself. I trust them to always be truthful with me, not to harm me intentionally.

Perhaps I have been fortunate - I have only been disappointed a couple of times. Once was the boss I had in my previous job. With her, I did all I could to please her, and once she showed me clearly that whatever I did would never be good enough, I left the job. The other was an on-line friend I made. I also met her in r/l. She turned out to be a class 1 bitch who had treated me in a manner hat she treats everyone eventually. I was completely bowled over by her treatment of me - and after asking for clarification on a couple of points (which, naturally, I didn't get) I just closed off all communication with her.

So - my point - after this long ramble ... if you cannot trust yourself to trust somebody with whom you are hoping to build a lasting relationship, then I would possibly suggest it is time to consider cutting your losses and moving on. Conversly, if you have done all you possibly can to show somebody your are worthy of their trust and still they question your every word and decision, then maybe it is time to face the fact that maybe they will never change and it is time to consider cutting your losses and moving on.

Thanks for elaborating on your valid opinion. I agree with your assessment totally. For some, it DOES however, take much more time for them to feel comfortable in giving their trust to another.

I'm sure it not only depends on ones past history, but also their innate fear of turning loose of defensive mechanisms, they have depended on for much of their life.

That being said,...I am a *patient* man.