Disappointments

[MicKay]

Low Votes....

Sometimes I read a story and don't vote b/c I'd want to give it a 2 or 3. I've read a number of posts from people who say they only vote if they can give it a 4 or 5. Should I give it the 2 or 3 if I think that's what it deserves? Maybe.

I would think a low vote would have more value to the author when a comment was included. If I had feedback from a writer such as PennLady stating why she gave me a low vote, I would take heed. Otherwise, from everything I've read on the forum, I would believe that I was special enough to get "trolled." (Personally, PL I'd rather receive an email from you. My skin is not thick enough for your public criticism. /smiles/)

 

[estragon]

Hey, not questioning the rest of your review, but how come you flat out gave away the ending, even if you have gripes with it?

The story had already posted when I made that comment, so I "gave away" nothing. If I have quibbled, that is to say, copy-edited or beta read a story, I will never give anything away pre-posting.

 

[estragon]

Actually Sagacious21 posted chapters 4/5 of "Kenny" today. And tell you what, Sagacious21, when this chapter (currently at 4.66) goes below the rating of estragon's last-posted story (3.18), you can start worrying about his public forum "disappointment." At 4.66, you obviously are delivering to your audience. Until then, I wouldn't worry so much, if I were you--you can even thumb your nose if you like.

Jealous, are we? Start your own thread, or, if you wish to post here, be my guest, but again, as I've said often enough, say whatever you like wherever you like, and I will do likewise.

 

[sr71plt]

Jealous, are we? Start your own thread, or, if you wish to post here, be my guest, but again, as I've said often enough, say whatever you like wherever you like, and I will do likewise.

Appalled at your audacity and arrogance is more like it. No, if this is where we are discussion disappointments, this is a good place for me to post about you.

 

[sr71plt]

Another reason is probably because a lot of people open stories, read the first few paragraphs and then stop reading either because:

1. It isn't about what they thought it was about
2. It is badly written, or not written in a way they like
3. It is taking too long to get to the action or, conversely, gets to the action too quickly.
4. They have zero connectivity or empathy with the main character(s)
5. They notice it is 5 pages long and they were looking for something shorter
6. Some real life reason or other

You can't really blame these people for not voting. Would you want them to vote on a story they hadn't really read? I probably only finish about one story in three that I open, usually for one of the reasons above, but they still count as 'views'..

I think that primary reason is that a preponderance of readers come here just to read for their own pleasure. They don't have the foggiest notion that they owe the author any feedback whatsoever--and they don't.

 

[lovecraft68]

Appalled at your audacity and arrogance is more like it. No, if this is where we are discussion disappointments, this is a good place for me to post about you.

As always I find it interesting that such a successful author wastes his time amongst us rank amateurs.

Then I always remember that it is the way you try to make you feel better about yourself.

I will again pooint out that there are several excessia authors on this site yet you are the only one who has to constantly say you are.

I guess there's a classless act in every bunch.

 

[sr71plt]

Not that I've done anything you're accusing me of in either what you quote or anything else I've posted to this thread.

Shell game much?

This is about vigilante public criticism where it wasn't sought--and by someone whose own story ratings are abysmal.

 

[El Folo]

The story had already posted when I made that comment, so I "gave away" nothing. If I have quibbled, that is to say, copy-edited or beta read a story, I will never give anything away pre-posting.

But here's the thing, I haven't heard of that guy's story before until you mentioned it. So the first time you mentioned the story, you also mentioned the ending, thus fucking over any kind of "surprise" that might have been had in actually reading the story. Whether it was a good, plausible, or well-written surprise is another debate entirely, but even if you didn't like it, spoiling it for others with no warning, that's kind of a weak move, man. That's my only complaint.

 

[PennLady]

I think that primary reason is that a preponderance of readers come here just to read for their own pleasure. They don't have the foggiest notion that they owe the author any feedback whatsoever--and they don't.

FWIW, I think this is very true.

 

[estragon]

But here's the thing, I haven't heard of that guy's story before until you mentioned it. So the first time you mentioned the story, you also mentioned the ending, thus fucking over any kind of "surprise" that might have been had in actually reading the story. Whether it was a good, plausible, or well-written surprise is another debate entirely, but even if you didn't like it, spoiling it for others with no warning, that's kind of a weak move, man. That's my only complaint.

You have two choices, at least. First, read the new stories when they post before reading my thread. Second, don't read my thread. I'm sure, if you try, you can think of others.

 

[estragon]

Not that I've done anything you're accusing me of in either what you quote or anything else I've posted to this thread.

Shell game much?

This is about vigilante public criticism where it wasn't sought--and by someone whose own story ratings are abysmal.

It's so easy to push your buttons. Talk about vigilante! And yet you might be an asset to the Bulletin Boards--if you weren't an asshole.

 

[lovecraft68]

But here's the thing, I haven't heard of that guy's story before until you mentioned it. So the first time you mentioned the story, you also mentioned the ending, thus fucking over any kind of "surprise" that might have been had in actually reading the story. Whether it was a good, plausible, or well-written surprise is another debate entirely, but even if you didn't like it, spoiling it for others with no warning, that's kind of a weak move, man. That's my only complaint.

I have to say Estragon, that this is a very valid point. With all due respect you may want to think a little more before you post.

 

[PennLady]

I would think a low vote would have more value to the author when a comment was included. If I had feedback from a writer such as PennLady stating why she gave me a low vote, I would take heed. Otherwise, from everything I've read on the forum, I would believe that I was special enough to get "trolled." (Personally, PL I'd rather receive an email from you. My skin is not thick enough for your public criticism. /smiles/)

MicKay, thank you, you're very sweet. However, let's state up front that I'm not a pro editor by training or profession -- hopefully just using the experience I've gained to help those who would want some criticism. I have given such low votes, and given reasons; I'd never do otherwise. What good is any vote, really, without some explanation? (No, I don't always leave a comment, especially with a 4 or 5 vote, so I admit I'm not consistent here.)

 

[PennLady]

I have to say Estragon, that this is a very valid point. With all due respect you may want to think a little more before you post.

This is tough -- when does a story run past the spoiler limit? When it's three days old? Five? I think this is just a risk you run.

I also read an article recently that said some study showed that people who knew the spoilers for movies or whatever actually got more enjoyment out of it. So who knows?

 

[sr71plt]

It's so easy to push your buttons. Talk about vigilante! And yet you might be an asset to the Bulletin Boards--if you weren't an asshole.

What nastiness inside you motivates you to intentionally push anyone's buttons?--although, of course, that does seem to be what you want to do to writers here with your thread and your vigilante public critiques. Whatever the motivation is, it's not very noble, is it? Seems to point to some inferiority complex of your own. Of course that is substantiated by the poor showing of your stories on Lit. Perhaps a variation of "them's that can't do, criticize"?

 

[lovecraft68]

This is tough -- when does a story run past the spoiler limit? When it's three days old? Five? I think this is just a risk you run.

I also read an article recently that said some study showed that people who knew the spoilers for movies or whatever actually got more enjoyment out of it. So who knows?

Depends on the type of movie. If you had known the ending of say sixth sense, you would not enjoy it as much.

Someone here knows how my series will end. If they put it out there I would be upset, even though many readers don't surf the threads.

I don't think Estragon does it maliciously though, so I'm not picking on him just pointing out the fact that he should consider things like that.

 

[PennLady]

Depends on the type of movie. If you had known the ending of say sixth sense, you would not enjoy it as much.

That's something to consider, but not necessarily true. I accidentally found out about "The Crying Game," but saw the movie anyway and enjoyed it just fine. I think, at least for me, knowing that "the butler did it" simply makes me turn my attention from "who done it" to "how they done it" and in many ways the how is more intriguing than the who.

I liken it to Crime and Punishment -- you find out right away that Raskolnikov killed the pawnbroker, and the tension after that is reading to find out whether the cop will catch him. (I cannot be called for spoilers on a 100+ year old Russian novel. )

Ah, found a couple of articles, although I'm not sure either is the one I read.

Article 1 from UK Daily Mail

Article 2 from US News

Someone here knows how my series will end. If they put it out there I would be upset, even though many readers don't surf the threads.

I don't think Estragon does it maliciously though, so I'm not picking on him just pointing out the fact that he should consider things like that.

I also think this is valid; I don't think I'd want anyone to reveal any twist I had going. Seems it may be most easily solved with a general "Spoilers may follow" in the postings.

For the record, I figured out the ending of "The Sixth Sense" about 30 seconds before it was revealed.

 

[estragon]

There is no malice whatever. Those who think I act maliciously would do better to examine themselves. They are, of course, at liberty not to read anything I write, or to comment how they will. Just as I am at liberty to ignore them, or rebuke them.

I must admit I am puzzled by a constant reference to my "ratings". I think we all agree that no one who visits the Literotica website owes any writer who posts here anything. The visitor need not view any story, read any story, vote on any story, comment on any story, or offer feedback on any story. And in fact the vast majority do not. If more proof were needed, just read the requests for feedback from writers on this and other Boards.

In fact, I would be much surprised if the ratio of votes, to say nothing of comments or feedback, was greater than one vote to a hundred views in the greatest number of cases, a statistically insignificant proportion. And even that assumes that a "view" is a complete read, or that a vote follows only a complete read, as to both of which I have no evidence.

In any event, whether the ratio of votes to views be large or small, the voter is anonymous. No one knows the voter's qualifications, prejudices, professional standing, credentials or even basic literacy. In short, one cannot tell whether the voter can count to 23 without removing his shoes, socks and underwear.

So I am perplexed. Am I to believe that these few anonymous persons know better than a highly qualified, professional writer and editor, who vaunts and flaunts his credentials on every possible occasion? And yet I cannot tell if this highly qualified, professional writer and editor ever read one of my stories. If he did, then why does he trust the judgment of a statistically insignificant minority of voters, of whose qualifications, prejudices, professional standing, credentials or even basic literacy he can know nothing, over his own? And if he has read my stories and thinks, in his carefully considered opinion, they are trash, let him say so and give his reasons.

If he doesn't wish to do so, that's perfectly fine with me. If he does, let him do so.

 

[sr71plt]

That's all irrelevant to appointing yourself a public-forum, vigilante critiquer of stories posted to a reading website but for which the author did not directly request a negative "disappointment" critique--and most certainly didn't ask that it be slapped on a public forum for all to see. This is not a writing critique site. This is a reading site. The assumption is not to be made that everyone posting a story here is doing so for a self-appointed vigilante to give negative criticism of it publicly--or is posting to develop his/her writing skills. We have a board (this one) where the author can ask for the critique. The others haven't told you that they were just salavating to have you dump on their story in public.

Comment on your own story ratings is quite relevant when you are suggesting what readers want from other writers. And when your last story is rating at 3.18 (none of your stories reach 4.50) and you are expressing public disappointment in someone else's story that is liked enough by readers that it's running at a 4.66 rating, your arrogance in giving smug public, unrequested pubic criticism is beyond silly.

If you are challenging me on editorial skills/credentials here (since you mention this and I haven't on this thread)--although that too is irrelevant to the point--let's do it. Let's have a couple of your editing clients here send the same story to both of us and then let them decide who is the trained editor and who isn't.

 

[estragon]

That's all irrelevant to appointing yourself a public-forum, vigilante critiquer of stories posted to a reading website but for which the author did not directly request a negative "disappointment" critique--and most certainly didn't ask that it be slapped on a public forum for all to see. This is not a writing critique site. This is a reading site. The assumption is not to be made that everyone posting a story here is doing so for a self-appointed vigilante to give negative criticism of it publicly--or is posting to develop his/her writing skills. We have a board (this one) where the author can ask for the critique. The others haven't told you that they were just salavating to have you dump on their story in public.

Comment on your own story ratings is quite relevant when you are suggesting what readers want from other writers. And when your last story is rating at 3.18 (none of your stories reach 4.50) and you are expressing public disappointment in someone else's story that is liked enough by readers that it's running at a 4.66 rating, your arrogance in giving smug public, unrequested pubic criticism is beyond silly.

If you are challenging me on editorial skills/credentials here (since you mention this and I haven't on this thread)--although that too is irrelevant to the point--let's do it. Let's have a couple of your editing clients here send the same story to both of us and then let them decide who is the trained editor and who isn't.

No, you read my stories. You tell me why they're trash. There's no competition here, unless it's in your mind.

 

[sr71plt]

No, you read my stories. You tell me why they're trash. There's no competition here, unless it's in your mind.

That's irrelevant to my objection to what you are doing here. You either understand that and are obfuscating, or you're just dumb as a rock (which would, at least, be an explanation for what you are doing).

(And, yes, I am aware of what you ignored.)

 

[SevenSquared]

Comment on your own story ratings is quite relevant when you are suggesting what readers want from other writers. And when your last story is rating at 3.18 (none of your stories reach 4.50) and you are expressing public disappointment in someone else's story that is liked enough by readers that it's running at a 4.66 rating, your arrogance in giving smug public, unrequested pubic criticism is beyond silly.

To be fair, readers are asked to vote on how much they like the story, nothing more, nothing less. There's nothing wrong with disliking (and hence voting low) a story that is currently rated at 4.7, nor is there anything wrong with liking a story that the 'concensus' hasn't liked. Nor does your own ability to write a story that is liked by the concensus have any bearing at all on the validity of your opinion.

The only issue here is whether it is right to give unsolicited public feedback on stories.

 

[sr71plt]

The only issue here is whether it is right to give unsolicited public feedback on stories.

Well, no, not exactly. It's on whether it's right to give vigilante, unsolicited public (or even private) NEGATIVE feedback on stories. That's the issue estragon wants to ignore. I say this is not advertised as a critique site. It's a reading site, and that a preponderance of those posting stories here just want the enjoyment of posting titilating stories (well, sex scenes mainly). And that they serve an audience that, in the preponderance, want that to.

If they truly want comments that are anything but "it made me come" or the rare "that was a beautiful story; it made me cry" or that will enhance their writing development, they'll come to this forum and directly ask for help with their writing.

Those who choose to be "raining on your parade" vigilantes who dump on the stories either in comments (mostly anonymous) directly on the story, or here on the forum in unsolicited critique threads (with estragon really having been the only Yahoo to do this in all the years I've been on the forum--which I would think would give estragon a clue on how well writers receive it) are being arrogant and nasty.

I actually know exactly why estragon's story ratings are so low. He's made authors he's dumped on in public so mad he's ruined their enjoyment of sharing a story here that they are zapping his stories. I wonder if he has a clue on the "cause and effect" of this. He certainly doesn't seem to have a clue on how clueless and nasty this behavior is toward those who haven't asked to be trained to write better by anyone, including estragon--who has admitted before that he has no particular training or experience in writing--or critiquing--erotica.

It's got to be motivated by a sense of superiority--which hasn't been demonstrated as valid--and a need for attention and fawning.

 

[SevenSquared]

I can't comment on estrogen's forum history, as I haven't been here long, but in this thread at least he is resticting his criticism to series and authors that he has predefined as being good, and merely stating that he is disappointed with the latest installment.

Not that I'm saying this is necessarily okay, people will have different opinions on this, but I don't think it is the same as just picking out random bad stories and lambasting the author.

 

[El Folo]

"El Folo, tell sr71plt to pass the peas."

"Well, tell Estragon if he wants flippin' peas, he can dangwell get off his keister and get them hisself, dontchaknow!"

"Ohhhh jumpin' Joseph and Jesus, please, can't we just have a nice dinner without the darn tootin' yappin'? Ya both will look fine fer the ball!"

"Ohhh shove it, SevenSquared, you can just sleep on the couch, mister toughguy dontchaknow!"

You guys are tearing me APAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRT! :'(