Disappointments

[sr71plt]

An editor isn't someone who doesn't make editorial mistakes, Carlus. If you really were an editor you would know that. As you obviously think you're perfect, I'd say you were the arrogant one.

 

[estragon]

I said "finally" and meant it.

 

[CarlusMagnus]

An editor isn't someone who doesn't make editorial mistakes, Carlus.

Your example makes that crystal clear, doesn't it?

If you really were an editor you would know that.

I've never said I'm an editor. And I'm not arrogant enough to be one.

As you obviously think you're perfect, I'd say you were the arrogant one.

You seem to be the one who thinks I'm perfect. I can't help you there.

 

[lovecraft68]

Oh, you're absolutely right (but only on the spelling). Thanks. I can't spell worth spit. I look almost everything up, but didn't on this.

Beyond that, I obviously don't agree with you, and have no intention of going another round on this. When writers complain about booooorish unsolicited negative comment slapped on their stories and on this forum, I'll just refer them to this thread to see that there are folks who will continue to do that "because they can."

I don't believe in arrogant vigilante public criticism on a story site not designated as a writing critique site. There we obviously disagree, so I guess I think you are boooorish about it too. No need to discuss it further. I doubt either one of us is going to slit our wrists over disagreeing.

Originally Posted by kinkosity View Post
You do realize boor is spelled with two o's, right? No offense, it grates on my nerves when someone chooses to insult another, but doesn't know how to properly spell the insult. It just seems rude and clumsy or boorish.

Can something really be mum if it's on a public forum? Nope. A writer can be alerted to the review of their work and then they can choose what to do about it. As I said before, either they wish to improve their work and will take the suggestions in the review to heart; they won't care whether it's good or bad, because they wrote it for entertainment's sakes; or they will flip out, because how dare someone write a bad review of their godly work!

Reiterated: they post it in public, they should be prepared for feedback and opinions of various natures.

Oh look Pilot another friend you have made! Must be another ill informed sorry excuse for a human for not worshiping your greatness.

Oh how I enjoy being right.

 

[estragon]

DG Hear, MFG, got scores lower for his first Halloween competition piece than I would have thought. Then again, of the first few pieces posted on 10/1, most haven't scored "H"s. Although a good story is a good story, scores or no scores, in a competition the scores are what counts. And the start of this race seems slow.

 

[estragon]

An editor isn't someone who doesn't make editorial mistakes, Carlus. If you really were an editor you would know that. As you obviously think you're perfect, I'd say you were the arrogant one.

I must agree that editors do make editorial mistakes, at least, and most definitely, in my own case. I made a howler in DG Hear, MFG's, entry in the Halloween contest. I missed a homophone, "udder" for "utter", and the fans were down on it like shit from a tall cow. It's a long way back to the huddle, as I've said more than once, when you miss a block.

 

[CarlusMagnus]

I must agree that editors do make editorial mistakes, at least, and most definitely, in my own case.

The issue, E, is not that editors don't make editorial mistakes.

There are a couple of other issues.

One is the way The Pilot jumped on blackstallion21 over in the "Need an editor?" thread on the Editor's Forum for mistakes no worse than his own.

The other is the way The Pilot flaunts his alleged status as a "trained editor".

 

[lovecraft68]

The issue, E, is not that editors don't make editorial mistakes.

There are a couple of other issues.

One is the way The Pilot jumped on blackstallion21 over in the "Need an editor?" thread on the Editor's Forum for mistakes no worse than his own.

The other is the way The Pilot flaunts his alleged status as a "trained editor".

pILOT is two a qunatified editoor! n fact hee elped me wit dis post!

 

[estragon]

A New Birth of Freedom Ch 4

I was disappointed. No hits, no runs, no errors, no one left on base.

 

[estragon]

Halloween--No Treats

There have been endless gripes about scoring. I'd decided to ignore the scores when talking of stories I liked, or which disappointed me. Contests are a different story, though, and the erratic, all-over-the-lot scores in the current Halloween contest really disappoint me.

SA Penn Lady's entry The Collection is really good, yet can't break 4.40 as of 10/13. OggBashan's Hostel Ghosts, which I liked although the heat level was a trifle low for this author's work, really got bombed. SilkStockingsLover is doing well (her fans are out in force), and DG Hear, MFG, had one story (Batman) scoring very well, although Swing was getting lower scores than this author usually attains.

Really spotty. I don't want to take away from the authors or the fans; everyone is entitled to an opinion, whether or not I agree. But this contest is, at least so far, decidedly less happy-making than the recent Summer Lovin', and especially this year's Nude Day.

 

[estragon]

Of course we must abide the event, impatient as I am to see who wins the Halloween competition. I hope this will be my last disappointment comment about SA Penn Lady's truly fine story "The Collection". Maybe it's the old story of horses for courses; SA Penn Lady hasn't ventured into the EH category before now, so perhaps her "poor" (for her) showing shouldn't be a surprise. It may be that the reader/voters there are ultra-persnickety in their tastes, and woe betide any author who ventures into the range of their displeasure. Still, it doesn't seem to be the minefield and free-fire zone of LW (which to the uninitiated looks like the Valentine's Day Massacre). So it may just be a question of what fits the category.

I promise to try hard to leave off making further comments on the scoring of this competition.

 

[sr71plt]

"The Collection" has not been opened much (only 4,510 views, which is very low for a contest) and it has only been favorited once. So, it's more like it's been ignored than low-rated. (The sweeps should tell the tale of that--if it comes back strong, it was being trolled.) My guess is that it's too long for most to read, especially those trying to give the story entries a good shot in the time they have to read at each setting. (Traditional definition of a short story: a story that can be read in one setting. What is the time length of "one setting" in today's fast-paced, cram-packed world?).

I haven't read it for that reason. Mainstream competition in short stories is geared for 3,000-3,500 words (which is one Lit. page), rarely over 5,000 words (one and a half Lit. page). Anything longer is considered a candidate for chopping and focusing, especially from a nonprofessional writer. I've been reading what I can (and there are some very good stories in the contest), but I haven't read anything over two Lit. pages--and won't.

Another possibility on this story is that I've often seen a backlash against stories being campaigned, as you are doing for "The Collection." There could be some "oh, yeah?" reaction voting--just enough to bring it off the peak. In relation to the rest of the field, it's not doing bad. Oh woeing (frequently) over its rating might be invited the "oh, yeah?" reaction.

 

[estragon]

Another possibility on this story is that I've often seen a backlash against stories being campaigned, as you are doing for "The Collection." There could be some "oh, yeah?" reaction voting--just enough to bring it off the peak. In relation to the rest of the field, it's not doing bad. Oh woeing (frequently) over its rating might be invited the "oh, yeah?" reaction.[/QUOTE]

If "campaigned" is the word, so be it. I only express my opinion, as everyone else is entitled to do here.

And as I said, whatever "campaigning" I was doing is over.

But I hadn't any idea I had so much influence, even to the extent of moving a story "off the peak." I rather thought I was completely ignored, or perhaps only read by those who want to denounce me for whatever they imagine my faults to be.

How nice to hear that some people might take me seriously.

 

[sr71plt]

You wondered why it wasn't doing better and I provided possibilities based on years of observation of story dynamics on this site.

I fully understand what you are endeavoring to do with these two threads--and it has nothing to do with the quality of any of the stories you refer to. I'm sure you're just all aglow at the possibility that they give you influence.

 

[lovecraft68]

Another possibility on this story is that I've often seen a backlash against stories being campaigned, as you are doing for "The Collection." There could be some "oh, yeah?" reaction voting--just enough to bring it off the peak. In relation to the rest of the field, it's not doing bad. Oh woeing (frequently) over its rating might be invited the "oh, yeah?" reaction.

If "campaigned" is the word, so be it. I only express my opinion, as everyone else is entitled to do here.

And as I said, whatever "campaigning" I was doing is over.

But I hadn't any idea I had so much influence, even to the extent of moving a story "off the peak." I rather thought I was completely ignored, or perhaps only read by those who want to denounce me for whatever they imagine my faults to be.

How nice to hear that some people might take me seriously.[/QUOTE]

Personally I don't think you're influencing anyone-no offense- most people don't read these forums. Look around on a daily basis, it's the same people posting all the time. The forums with the most traffic, the GB and some of the fetish forums, the posters don't even read the stories, this is their social life.

I think when a story is knocked down in the contests, it is simply either retribution for inflammatory posting-certainly not where PL would fall- or people voting things down so their author can win. People or alts take your pick.

As long as they allow any mouse to vote that will always be the case.

Edited this to say lit is being weird with the "quoting" here

 

[estragon]

You wondered why it wasn't doing better and I provided possibilities based on years of observation of story dynamics on this site.

I fully understand what you are endeavoring to do with these two threads--and it has nothing to do with the quality of any of the stories you refer to. I'm sure you're just all aglow at the possibility that they give you influence.

On the contrary, it has everything to do with the quality of the writing I praise, or as to which I express disappointment. And as for influence, how do you know whether I desire any? And why should you care if I do or do not? But you cannot think so poorly of my opinion if you keep coming back to comment upon it. If my opinions are so ill-informed, malicious or trivial, as you assert unceasingly; and so unlikely to be influenced by your attacks, as has been proven again and again; then why do you bother? Have you really nothing better to do?

 

[estragon]

"Personally I don't think you're influencing anyone-no offense- most people don't read these forums. Look around on a daily basis, it's the same people posting all the time."

LC68, no offense taken, I assure you. My offer of a beer at Jake's Saloon still stands.

I hadn't thought anyone was swayed by my comments on this Board; they might read a story, once in a way, based on a posting here, but never so often as to give me the slightest suggestion that my opinion counted for anything. And they'd make up their own minds whatever I said.

In any event, my comments here are like my quibbling (copy editing). As I said in my essay "Confessions of a Quibbler": "And quibbling is a great excuse to keep from doing my own writing. It feels 'lit’rary' without really being creative or exacting the hard, grinding, gut-wrenching labor that is the most necessary component of truly creative work. At least for me, the old song is true: 'Ya know it don’t come easy'."

 

[sr71plt]

On the contrary, it has everything to do with the quality of the writing I praise, or as to which I express disappointment. And as for influence, how do you know whether I desire any? And why should you care if I do or do not? But you cannot think so poorly of my opinion if you keep coming back to comment upon it. If my opinions are so ill-informed, malicious or trivial, as you assert unceasingly; and so unlikely to be influenced by your attacks, as has been proven again and again; then why do you bother? Have you really nothing better to do?

This is a discussion board, isn't it? You post comments, you can expect to get get discussion. I don't think your opinions are poor--just average. I think it's you who is trying to carve out a "me guru and kingmaker" spot here--on average (for Lit.) ability and little evidence of actual expertise.

 

[lovecraft68]

This is a discussion board, isn't it? You post comments, you can expect to get get discussion. I don't think your opinions are poor--just average. I think it's you who is trying to carve out a "me guru and kingmaker" spot here--on average (for Lit.) ability and little evidence of actual expertise.

Can you explain how an opinion can be average? Or actually poor or superior for that matter?

I'm not busting your balls(for once) I mean an opinion is only relevant to the person rendering it. You and I could possibly render the same opinion on a story down to a simple yes it was good, or no it was poor, but I am sure the reasoning would be as different as we are.

I think opinions really only matter to the one giving it.

 

[sr71plt]

Opinions don't just drop out of the blue. They have a level of knowledge and experience--on that particular topic--behind them. Superior opinions are ones that are well informed by acquired knowledge and experience; inferior opinions are those ill informed by pretense and false assumption. Thus, an average opinion would be between those. Mostly supposition, but common sense supposition, based on an average grounding in the topic.

This is tied to the false "axiom" of Internet chat rooms that all opinions are equal--they aren't. Some inevitably are better informed than others. Some are just pulled out of the ass or are given only to contradict a poster you don't like--or made up to maliciously attack a poster you don't like.

 

[lovecraft68]

Opinions don't just drop out of the blue. They have a level of knowledge and experience--on that particular topic--behind them. Superior opinions are ones that are well informed by acquired knowledge and experience; inferior opinions are those ill informed by pretense and false assumption. Thus, an average opinion would be between those. Mostly supposition, but common sense supposition, based on an average grounding in the topic.

This is tied to the false "axiom" of Internet chat rooms that all opinions are equal--they aren't. Some inevitably are better informed than others. Some are just pulled out of the ass or are given only to contradict a poster you don't like--or made up to maliciously attack a poster you don't like.

That's what I thought you meant. I agree, to a degree. If you were to specifically call someone out on grammar, then seeing you do this for a living I would say sure you have an informed opinion. Whereas I, who am fairly grammatically impaired should not be criticizing others for it and would have a poor opinion.

But on a topic of siomply saying "liked" did not like, a story I think all you really need is a lot of time reading the type of story you are critiquing. Now if you don;t like that genre then you would be blowing smoke but if it is "your thing" I think the basic liked it hated it opinion is valid.

You made a comment once that you dislike horror movies. I am a horror buff, so if I said the latest sucked, I'd have a better opinion than you who really don,t get them.

The other point is, how much sway does any one person's opinion have here? Do you think if you were to bash a story that others would not read it, or by the same token they would flock to it, because you liked it? I think opinion really still is just that, and should not be taken to seriously.

 

[estragon]

So the result is simple--if you don't like it, don't read it. And if you think someone's opinion is worthless, or only beneath you as just "average", why read it? Steve Jobs got it right--we all of us, wise and stupid and average alike, have a limited time on this planet. So why waste it on something you think of little worth?

 

[sr71plt]

I don't see the revelvance of your post to anything I've posted--so you were adressing someone else?

You complained (repeatedly) about how "not stupendously" a story you were plugging was doing. I provided reasons why this might happen on Lit. If you don't like those reasons, both fine and tough. Figure out your own reasons that a story you are flogging isn't doing as well as you would like for it to do.

Again, if the story is being trolled, the ratings will come up with the sweeps. We haven't had the sweeps yet. I've never yet seen how whining about bad ratings helped make the ratings go up, though.

 

[lovecraft68]

I think bemoaning a story not doing well is painting a bullseye on it, for the people who get some form of sick thrill with clicking the one star button. That particular thrill eludes me.

All I can picture is a ten year old going "Oh yeah? Take that!"

 

[manyeyedhydra]

Of course we must abide the event, impatient as I am to see who wins the Halloween competition. I hope this will be my last disappointment comment about SA Penn Lady's truly fine story "The Collection". Maybe it's the old story of horses for courses; SA Penn Lady hasn't ventured into the EH category before now, so perhaps her "poor" (for her) showing shouldn't be a surprise. It may be that the reader/voters there are ultra-persnickety in their tastes, and woe betide any author who ventures into the range of their displeasure. Still, it doesn't seem to be the minefield and free-fire zone of LW (which to the uninitiated looks like the Valentine's Day Massacre). So it may just be a question of what fits the category.

It's not that easy to 'walk' into another category and expect to do well, especially from romance to horror. EH isn't as bad as LW, but there are schisms and it's also low scoring. It's very rare for a story to break 4.7 and accumulate significant numbers of votes. It's pointless to compare scores between EH and romance. The EH score will always be lower.

The schism comes down to whether you want to be me (manyeyedhydra) or secretme (writer of Mira, the other series that features heavily on the EH toplist). This boils down to whether your fatale is femme or homme - slinky succubus or hunky vamp/woof. Without either of these things you're going to struggle to break a H unless the writing is truly exceptional.

4.4ish is not "poor" for EH, it's actually good. People often get "Erotic Horror" mixed up with "Horror". Want to score highly - you need a femme/homme fatale. Good, conventional horror tales about serial killers don't do that well. They might be good horror stories, but this is the erotic horror category.

Staples of horror such as cosmic justic don't score highly in erotic horror. Staples of romance--tall, dark, hunky and fucking full of themselves--don't score highly with the male audience. I'm not surprised by Sagacious's score, who I think was mentioned earlier. I only skimmed it but it featured nice-but-plain/fugly guy coming out on top. That angle has always scored highly on my side of the schism.

It's not really about quality. A lot of quality stories end up around 4.4 in EH. Quality is a hidden baseline. The slinky succubus/hunky vamp-woof factor is a much more reliable indicator of score in EH.