Does/should motivation for a partner's kink matter?

[VelvetDarkness]

Then I go back to what I also said earlier - at some point you just have to trust yourself to make a good decision and take action.

Yep, that's pretty much it.

I know cyber isn't for everyone but if you aren't ready to take action and you're still horny, kinky and lonely then at some point you'll have to do something.

 

[half_full]

I think you are really in need of an understanding, potentially longterm partner here rather than a playmate.

When I am ready, that is the goal.

The key here is definitely trust and deep respect. If you find a dominant man you can genuinely respect as a person and who feels the same about you then whatever passes between you in sexual play is not demeaning and does not erode your self respect, just as it should have no detriment on your respect for the guy.

Intellectually I do get this. However, I wasn't talking about just sexual play here. Obedience, service and a desire to please outside of the bedroom is a big part of how I identify as submissive. Identity, dignity, and self respect exist outside the bedroom as well.

It's easy to fall into the trap of thinking that having limits and uncertainties makes you less submissive.

Actually, not a trap that would catch me. Erosion of limits for the pleasure of another is what leads to loss of self esteem, self respect and dignity. This is why knowing yourself, and having a partner who knows his self is important.

It is a slippery slope and you do have to monitor yourself carefully but unless you try a few things on for size you can't categorically say that they aren't for you anyway.

The slippery slope to which I was referring wasn't in reference to any particular sex act. A person of the type who is willing to give/receive solely for the purpose of pleasing another has to be able to recognize the motives of the other. This applies to application of pain as well as loaning money, and everything in between.

 

[twysted73]

I assume you are responding to this specific statement:Woa, back up the cart here. We are talking apples and oranges. You are confusing rough sex in the heat of passion with a calculated and measured need to hurt, humiliate or control, which is what I am talking about. The former is just good fun and there is no need to question it beyond what it is. The later, requires a certain amount of introspection and understanding so that one can be in control of that desire, as opposed to the desire controlling them.
BTW, your story was entertaining because your partner just happened to be a woman. If she had been a man and lost control like that in the heat of argument, many would consider that abuse. Do you see the difference?

I do see your point. But your apple is shaped like my orange, and my orange is very red. Which is to say, I was defending your until-then undiscovered desire for such activity by saying it's your opinion if it's normal for you. If that activity turns you on, and it doesn't necessarily scare but attract you...then I encourage.

Case in point: (and a rather extreme one to boot) is BIID - Body Integrity Identity Disorder. A condition by which someone feels a compelling need to remove or amputate healthy limbs to feel "normal". Not something a majority of the populus would deem "safe or sane" but to those who have this, it is very much so.
So, you have my support 100%. (not that you asked for it, but there it is like road kill)

 

[Netzach]

I have a personal philosophy when it comes to such things: "If you put your honey pot out there, you'll attract flies. Then the bears will come and scare away the flies. The bears will eat your honey, then go find another honey pot."

Wow, if that works for you, great. But honestly, I got over commodifying myself like that, *before* I started professionally Domming. Commerce metaphors aside, I've had to fight hard NOT to let that sensibility creep into my life, and I fight it well.

I have, however, come to see some other people as interpersonal commodities for *me.* And this has improved my boundaries with people and I get along better. Better living through sadism, who'd have thought.

Also, be aware, I wasn't recommending fucking everyone in sight, I was suggesting getting out there and seeing who else is actually doing some of the things that interest you potentially and perhaps learning more about said things with those who fit within your comfort levels. There are some surprisingly normal people doing this every night of the week.

Hell, I beat on men for pay for 2 years and I was just another dumpy girl at the grocery store.

 

[half_full]

Wow, if that works for you, great. But honestly, I got over commodifying myself like that, *before* I started professionally Domming. Commerce metaphors aside, I've had to fight hard NOT to let that sensibility creep into my life, and I fight it well.

I have, however, come to see some other people as interpersonal commodities for *me.* And this has improved my boundaries with people and I get along better. Better living through sadism, who'd have thought.

Also, be aware, I wasn't recommending fucking everyone in sight, I was suggesting getting out there and seeing who else is actually doing some of the things that interest you potentially and perhaps learning more about said things with those who fit within your comfort levels. There are some surprisingly normal people doing this every night of the week.

Hell, I beat on men for pay for 2 years and I was just another dumpy girl at the grocery store.

The the thing with me, is I don't WANT to fight that sensibility. It is a big part of who I am and at my age that is unlikely to change. My interest in D/s is not to change who I am, but rather to find acceptance and fullfillment expressing who I am - a submissive woman with needs and desires I have been told my whole life are wrong and immoral. There is a difference. And it's not just about sex, but when it comes to sex and other acts of intimacy, I have no desire to engage in public, indulge casually, or discuss details on the internet. That is not me. In order for me to be who I am, to be submissive, I need a deeper emotional connection with someone I trust. Having said that, I am curious about this:

I have, however, come to see some other people as interpersonal commodities for *me.* And this has improved my boundaries with people and I get along better. Better living through sadism, who'd have thought.

I identify emotionally very strongly with Dominate men, and that includes those who ID as sadists. In a previous reply to you, I even quoted Francisco to express my feelings on fear in a way that would make sense to you. You seem to be a better sadist the more you can emotionally distance yourself from what you do and who you do it with. In other words, you get what you need from it without requiring that deeper connection. I've sensed this in many of your posts throughout the years. I find this to be quite common with women sadists, but rather rare with men. I have to say it was one of the things that surprised me most of all the misconceptions I had of people who engaged in this lifestyle. IYO, is there any real truth there or has my sampling pool been too small to make those generalizations? It's rather irrelevant to my own personal journey, but I am curious just the same.

 

[Netzach]

The the thing with me, is I don't WANT to fight that sensibility. It is a big part of who I am and at my age that is unlikely to change. My interest in D/s is not to change who I am, but rather to find acceptance and fullfillment expressing who I am - a submissive woman with needs and desires I have been told my whole life are wrong and immoral. There is a difference. And it's not just about sex, but when it comes to sex and other acts of intimacy, I have no desire to engage in public, indulge casually, or discuss details on the internet. That is not me. In order for me to be who I am, to be submissive, I need a deeper emotional connection with someone I trust. Having said that, I am curious about this:I identify emotionally very strongly with Dominate men, and that includes those who ID as sadists. In a previous reply to you, I even quoted Francisco to express my feelings on fear in a way that would make sense to you. You seem to be a better sadist the more you can emotionally distance yourself from what you do and who you do it with. In other words, you get what you need from it without requiring that deeper connection. I've sensed this in many of your posts throughout the years. I find this to be quite common with women sadists, but rather rare with men. I have to say it was one of the things that surprised me most of all the misconceptions I had of people who engaged in this lifestyle. IYO, is there any real truth there or has my sampling pool been too small to make those generalizations? It's rather irrelevant to my own personal journey, but I am curious just the same.

I guess the sadism *is* the connection. For me.

I don't like to muck that beauty up with luv or worries or anything other than we're here to do this thing, let's do it.

I've had some of the most intimate and meaningful moments of my life with people whose last names I'm never going to know.

I don't think that's cheapening. That's as close to agape and altruism as I'm ever going to get. The misconception is that "no questions asked" distancing makes things easier or IS easier. It's not. It's what's needed. It's what I work to offer, and sweat for. It does not come easy, it does not come without being up in the middle of the night, it does not come without wondering what I'm precisely doing or what's wrong with the man who lets me do it to him, it *necessitates* deciding I don't need to know or care. In a humble way. The way I don't need to know the precise gravitational pull of Minneapolis MN to know I'm not going to float away.

This is a question of doing not what's expedient, but what I feel has to happen. I can't think of a better expression of my love for humanity, as grandiose and warped as this may be, as to *accept* a person enough to pierce the webbing of his hands or hit her that one more time to break flesh *without* the onus of "are you really wanting this for reasons I deem OK?" and simply accepting them as they are. Right then. Backing that acceptance with matching actions, and meeting them where they are, and where other people don't want to meet them.


This is, of course, relevant to sadism not to D/s. In terms of D/s, the acceptance in question is the s accepting who, what, how and why *I* am - my personal quirks and vagaries point the way. If that 56 year old man has put on his left sock first every day of his waking life and I decide it's got to switch, I want someone on board with that program. The expression in question is my expression and his instrumentation in that expression - but this is a difference I have noted in female versus male submissives. Women want to experience their submission via what is done TO them - men, the few who aren't completely bogus about it all - want to serve a specific master or mistress and be utilized, and be relevant via helpfulness and attention paid. But perhaps my sample is skewed. I tend to identify emotionally with submissive males rather strongly. As for who and what I expect this from it's pretty consistent with the male D's I've met that I don't expect this from random people or casual hookups - I mean going through the motions is OK and maybe it gets my boots polished with this one girl and puts her into a happy headspace - but I do require this with a level of intent and intimacy to really feed me, I do have to care about my slave a great deal to really savor the outrageousness he's willing to put up with because I like him and he likes me as much as we do.

 

[half_full]

Um, one has to try such activities to enjoy them. And trying them once or twice might just help you open up a bit.

See my response to Netzach. I don't experiment or 'play' casually. That doesn't necessarily make me a prude or uptight.

...snip...Once I decided that what I was doing wasn't somehow wrong, I didn't sweat it anymore...snip

Isn't this the real point here? I'm sure I'll open up quite nicely once I work through some of the bigger demons in my head.

You've told us that you are an intelligent, in-control, and successful businesswoman, with various and sundry useful skills, management ability, and income. Surely you can figure out a way to take a vacation somewhere and anonymously involve yourself in something, even if only as an observer? Perhaps catch a trip to some place like Atlanta and visit 1763. Wear a mask, so no one will recognise you =P

LOL! You flatter me. I'm not famous or anything. I'm only recognizable to those in my own inner circle. It's beside the point, though. I don't do anonymous, even as just a voyeur.

Frankly, the vast majority of people that I've met in the lifestyle are 'normal' everyday folks that just happen to be really freaky behind closed doors. Maybe if you got out and met a few it would not seem quite so bizarre, no?

I don't at all question the degree of 'normalness' of the people in the lifestyle, nor do I find much of the behavior bizarre. Mine is a personal struggle of what I'm willing to accept about myself, and of those I choose to love. It's not about what particular sex acts I might find enjoyable or bizzare. You see?
Which leads to the perfect segway to answer this question:

Why were you alarmed that I had no mother-issues, family problems, work issues, misogyny, etc? Why does it bother you?

This really speaks to the heart of the issue I was trying to address in the OP, and not some of this silliness that I've had to address recently about my fear of trying kinky sex. Your statements didn't bother me. I just didn't believe them. You also stated that it bothered you that you didn't know why you were a sadist and that you thought your brain may be 'wired that way.' I am one of those who happens to believe that we do things - that we behave a certain way - for a reason. You later redeemed yourself by admitting to some very horrific darkness in your childhood. It's not for me to say whether the events in your childhood contributed to your desires and urges. That is for you to figure out. The important thing is that you figure it out. Understanding why we do something is a big part of learning to control behaviors that might otherwise control us. This is equally true for the cruelest of sadists and the most pathetic passive aggressive who can't stay in a relationship longer than 6 months before he cheats. After a little introspection, if you determine that events in your childhood had absolutely nothing to do with your sadistic desires and urges, then at the very least be able to articulate why you do it, what you get out of it, what need does it meet for you, what triggers the urges, what is that line you would not cross, etc. If you're going to be a sadist, then be a good sadist. I would ask these same questions of a Dom who did not ID as a sadist but believed in corporal punishment for correction and discipline, not just play. I, personally, would never accept as an answer 'I don't know' or 'Just because it's fun.' But that's just me. When I first posed the question in the OP, you were exactly the kind of person I had in mind as someone to avoid: dark desires coupled with a dark past. I can see now how wrong that is. As so many have pointed out in this thread, control is more important than motivation. Understanding oneself is key to control, and for me, important to build trust. IMHO, it's also key to avoiding all the trappings of this lifestyle that can be excuses for out of control behavior.

 

[CutieMouse]

*****

 

[BiBunny]

I am now officially convinced that this person is a horny grad student doing research for a master's thesis from an "online institution." I mean, 'cause no REAL graduate program's going to accept research from a message board.

Seriously...what the fuck?

 

[Homburg]

CM already responded to this point and, as usual, knocked out most of what I would say, and did so in a more articulate and readable fashion. My turgid and obtuse prose leaves something to be desired. Still, there are a few clarifications I feel are needed.

See my response to Netzach. I don't experiment or 'play' casually. That doesn't necessarily make me a prude or uptight.

I neither stated, nor implied, that you were a prude, nor uptight. You've done a better job of that yourself with your own sig. I was simply suggesting a bit of immersion. In other words, come on in, the water's fine.

I don't at all question the degree of 'normalness' of the people in the lifestyle, nor do I find much of the behavior bizarre. Mine is a personal struggle of what I'm willing to accept about myself, and of those I choose to love. It's not about what particular sex acts I might find enjoyable or bizzare. You see?

Not really. Please don't take this as insulting, but I see you dancing around something because it frightens you deeply, and the path you have chosen as exploration (ie reading stories) presents said something in the most extreme light possible overall. All too often, fantasy is never farther from reality than in BDSM fiction.

Which leads to the perfect segway to answer this question:This really speaks to the heart of the issue I was trying to address in the OP, and not some of this silliness that I've had to address recently about my fear of trying kinky sex. Your statements didn't bother me. I just didn't believe them.

Why? Serious question. Why did you not believe me? What reason do I have to lie?

You also stated that it bothered you that you didn't know why you were a sadist and that you thought your brain may be 'wired that way.' I am one of those who happens to believe that we do things - that we behave a certain way - for a reason. You later redeemed yourself by admitting to some very horrific darkness in your childhood.

Do what?!? Reread my posts. My father was criminally abused. My grandfather was a vicious bastard towards my dad, not me. I made clear in my posts that I had a normal childhood and was not abused. No darkness here, sorry.

I feel like you are guilty of seeing what you are looking for regardless of what is being said. No darkness. No abuse. No mommy conflicts. No work conflicts. No powerlessness in life. Nothing. I just like to cause pain.

It's not for me to say whether the events in your childhood contributed to your desires and urges. That is for you to figure out. The important thing is that you figure it out. Understanding why we do something is a big part of learning to control behaviors that might otherwise control us. This is equally true for the cruelest of sadists and the most pathetic passive aggressive who can't stay in a relationship longer than 6 months before he cheats. After a little introspection, if you determine that events in your childhood had absolutely nothing to do with your sadistic desires and urges, then at the very least be able to articulate why you do it, what you get out of it, what need does it meet for you, what triggers the urges, what is that line you would not cross, etc. If you're going to be a sadist, then be a good sadist. I would ask these same questions of a Dom who did not ID as a sadist but believed in corporal punishment for correction and discipline, not just play. I, personally, would never accept as an answer 'I don't know' or 'Just because it's fun.' But that's just me. When I first posed the question in the OP, you were exactly the kind of person I had in mind as someone to avoid: dark desires coupled with a dark past. I can see now how wrong that is. As so many have pointed out in this thread, control is more important than motivation. Understanding oneself is key to control, and for me, important to build trust. IMHO, it's also key to avoiding all the trappings of this lifestyle that can be excuses for out of control behavior.

I'm going to avoid most of this paragraph, as it is based on erroneous readings of my rather clear post. I will say that the core of it is bothersome. You won't accept a sadist that enjoys causing pain 'just because'? You would be happier with someone that dresses it only in the trappings of discipline? Go read the Domestic Discipline sites then. If you are comforted by someone lying to themselves and you that they're only hitting you to make you a better women, more power to you. I prefer the rather direct honesty of "I'm hitting you because I like it", "I hurt you because I enjoy the noises you make when I give you pain", and "Nothing gets me off harder than the feel of my hand impacting on your firm ass until you beg for my permission to come".

I am honest. Period. I do what I do because I love what I do, and because the women who have willingly placed themselves under my hand like how I do it. If it bothers you, that's cool. I don't expect that you and I will ever meet. If my style of thinking, or my particular build of sadist bothers you, hey, that's cool too. But don't confuse lack of deep explanation for lack of control. To be frank, I find what you are implying to be rather deeply insulting, and I have a hard time accepting pronouncements such as "be a good sadist" from someone who won't even attempt to do more than fantasise and read about what I do every day.

 

[Homburg]

Control is more important than motivation. The thing you seem to be struggling with, is that people don't necessarily have to understand themselves with all their "stuff" tied up in boxes with neat little bows, in order to have the utmost control. IMO, then people who don't fully understand "why" are the ones with the tightest control, because they respect the fact that the monster is rarely ever fully tamed...

Repeating this portion of CutieMouse's excellent post for emphasis.

I scare you, half_full. I accept that, and it is probably a good thing to be scared of men like me. I hurt people like you, and enjoy it. The last line is the important one. I recognise the monster within. I've hunted it most of my life, tracked it, and tried to understand it. You've spent two years researching BDSM. I've spent 35 years being me, and 20+ of those years being aware that there is something inside me that is very scary to some people (and very attractive to others). And not a day of my life goes by that I don't let that darkness out on a tight leash to give some pain to a woman I love more deeply than you can probably imagine.

Which one of us is more qualified to discuss that sort of darkness? Which one of us knows it better? Can I quantify, codify, and dissect it for you? No. Nor, at the end of the day, do I really care to. My sadism is the man behind the curtain, the troll under the bridge, and I don't really care any more. So long as it stays on its' leash, I'm fine with it, and I'm not going to waste my time and energy delving too deeply into something that works so goddamned well.

Why? Because the more I dig, the more I worry it over in my head, the more it comes down to the sound of her cries, the salt of her tears, and the tight clench of every muscle in her body as she shakes with another orgasm.

Fear me. It's the logical thing to do.

 

[somberReality]

Repeating this portion of Monica's excellent post for emphasis.

I scare you, half_full. I accept that, and it is probably a good thing to be scared of men like me. I hurt people like you, and enjoy it. The last line is the important one. I recognise the monster within. I've hunted it most of my life, tracked it, and tried to understand it. You've spent two years researching BDSM. I've spent 35 years being me, and 20+ of those years being aware that there is something inside me that is very scary to some people (and very attractive to others). And not a day of my life goes by that I don't let that darkness out on a tight leash to give some pain to a woman I love more deeply than you can probably imagine.

Which one of us is more qualified to discuss that sort of darkness? Which one of us knows it better? Can I quantify, codify, and dissect it for you? No. Nor, at the end of the day, do I really care to. My sadism is the man behind the curtain, the troll under the bridge, and I don't really care any more. So long as it stays on its' leash, I'm fine with it, and I'm not going to waste my time and energy delving too deeply into something that works so goddamned well.

Why? Because the more I dig, the more I worry it over in my head, the more it comes down to the sound of her cries, the salt of her tears, and the tight clench of every muscle in her body as she shakes with another orgasm.

Fear me. It's the logical thing to do.

I'm severely turned on.

Sadistic bastard.

Mommy like!

 

[half_full]

I am now officially convinced that this person is a horny grad student doing research for a master's thesis from an "online institution." I mean, 'cause no REAL graduate program's going to accept research from a message board.

Seriously...what the fuck?

Why must you insult? Is intelligent discourse that offensive and threatening to you? If you disagree or have a contrary opinion to anything I've said, then please throw it out there for all to read, and let's judge it on it's merits. I've noticed that you have stayed conspicously silent on this thread until somebody disagees with me, then you join them to throw out insults. Very bad form.

 

[nh23]

Why must you insult? Is intelligent discourse that offensive and threatening to you? If you disagree or have a contrary opinion to anything I've said, then please throw it out there for all to read, and let's judge it on it's merits. I've noticed that you have stayed conspicously silent on this thread until somebody disagees with me, then you join them to throw out insults. Very bad form.

*sighs* Everyone has tried to give you opinions on how they feel about this topic. It just gets very frustrating when you shoot down everything anyone says to try to help. I think you have some inner turmoil that isn't going to be soothed by anything. That's my opinion..

P.S. I don't think your post is going to hurt her feelings much..read her sig line..lol

 

[BiBunny]

*sighs* Everyone has tried to give you opinions on how they feel about this topic. It just gets very frustrating when you shoot down everything anyone says to try to help. I think you have some inner turmoil that isn't going to be soothed by anything. That's my opinion..

P.S. I don't think your post is going to hurt her feelings much..read her sig line..lol

*Giggle* I love you, nh.

And, half_full, if you weren't asking questions you'd already chosen the answers to, I might feel more generous. If you're convinced that everyone who's involved in BDSM has issues that stem from their childhoods or whatever, there's not much I or anyone else say, is there?

Don't ask questions when you're already certain you have the answers to. "Very bad form."

 

[Marquis]

Hello All,

I have a question about something that's been bothering me for a while and as I am still in the early stages of exploring this lifestyle, I would greatly appreciate the opinions and advice of some of the more experienced members of this forum.

I did introduce myself in the "New Faces..." thread so I'll not repost background info here, but it might be helpful to take a look at the earlier posts to help you understand where I'm coming from.

Dom(mes) - if you require a certain characteristic or kink in a sub, such as obedience, masochism, subjection to humiliation or objectification, etc., does it matter to you what his/her motivation is to oblige you? For example, if he/she is a masochist does it matter to you if his/her need for pain stems from past abuse, self hatred, erotic pleasure, or other? I'm looking for insight beyond the obvious. Of course you would not be inclined to inflict pain upon someone who as suffered previous abuse, or humiliate someone who suffers from low self esteem, right? Or no? Would you inflict pain if the primary motivation was service or obedience, even though the sub may have also experienced past abuse or self loathing? Is it more important to just match the kinks - you like to humiliate, sub likes to be humiliated, the rest is irrelevant as long as both partners needs are met?

I suppose the same question can be posed to subs. I stated in another thread that I wish I had a nickel for every time I read a post/blog/article where some sub (and occasionally Doms) mentioned that most/every/quite a few Doms they know have lingering 'issues' with women stemming from abusive maternal caregivers and feelings of emasculation. Could you submit to someone whose motivation for dominance was just this? What if he were also a sadist? Could/would you allow yourself to be humiliated by him? Once again, forget the obvious. I am not talking about a Dom who is also abusive, but it doesn't necessarily follow that every Dom who has at some time felt emasculated by a women becomes an abuser. I'm just curious to know whether the motivation for a kink matters to you.

I recognize that the answers may depend upon whether we are talking about casual play partners vs committed relationships.

Please try not to make this thread about abuse. It's been discussed many times, there are several threads, I've read them all, every post, and I get it.

I know this is alot, but I am just trying to understand, and I have questions...lots and lots of questions...

I've spent a lot of time thinking about this issue and still struggle with it occasionally. I don't think there are any easy answers on this issue, but my policy is that things are generally ok if I am comfortable with myself and comfortable with my partner.

I used to struggle with a lot of my desires and preferences a lot more than I do now. I think that exposing myself to people who are tolerant and open-minded has been tremendously helpful. Every once in a while, it's hard not to look at your partner or yourself and wonder if there's a screw loose. Oddly enough, those tend to be the best nights.

I'm a comfortable being with a partner who has some issues. I think we all have a few issues, I certainly know I do, so some understanding in this area is a good thing. That being said, there are some issues I would not be comfortable with. I would wish them the best at finding someone who could accept them, but I wouldn't break my back trying to do it myself.

 

[half_full]

This made me laugh... for a really long time I had a custom sig that read "perfectly practical prude"... my blog somewhat centers around the fact that I'm a prude... ask just about anyone on Lit, and they'll probably say "Monica? Oh yeah... as far as the general public is concerned, that chick is wound awfully dammed tight..."

I wasn't trying to confirm or deny my degree of 'prudeness'. I was only trying to say that not wanting to play in public does not a prude make. Some of the members of this forum have publicly stated that they are private people and do not wish to discuss the details of their personal sex lives. That doesn't make them prudes.

I'm starting to wonder if you aren't focusing on certain aspects in order to flirt with avoiding opening up [in real life]... when you said you'd spent 2 years reading erotica on Lit as entertainment/research, I thought no wonder you're all stressy about the whys and wherefores of this stuff... you're foundation is fantasy, which is rarely reality. 95% of the time those dark scary monster people are fiction; the other 5% are dealt with by having a good dose of common sense and personal boundaries.

Monica, this is really an unfair statement. I have stated a couple of times that I have spent 3 yrs researching and trying to understand this lifestyle and that my sources are numerous including, fiction and nonfiction books, articles, discussion groups and blogs. My library of reading material is quite extensive. VelvetDarkness suggested I 'experiment' by reading Lit stories. I replied to her that I had read them all and found them informative and entertaining. That's it. You read way too much into that statement. I can assure you that my foundation is not fantasy. I read extensively the message boards and blogs, including this one, of the people who participate in real life, and that is where I get most of my information about the kinds of things I'd like to avoid. I do recognize, however, that the online community may not be representative of the larger community.

The point was to actually get a grasp of what "the lifestyle" is like, without having to lower your personal ethics or morals. Sitting around chit chatting at a munch, or attending a weekend seminar will probably do a lot to quell your concerns - which aren't centered around sex, at all, from what I'm sensing.

I did get the point, and you are right, my concerns are not necessarily particular acts of sex. Although attending munches and seminars may be entertaining, those things will not quell my concerns. Neither will casually playing or 'experimenting.' But those concerns are deeply personal, can only be addressed by me and were never meant to be a topic for this thread.

I suspect that journey of discovery never ends for anyone... I further suspect that you could easily spend the rest of your life saying "Well, yes, but I really want to know why ____... THEN I'll step into the kinky light..."

Monica, this is simply not so and I've stated it several times. I am not in a position, for personal reasons such as a very demanding career where I have to travel ALOT, to enter into a relationship right now - any relationship - much less one based on unequal power dynamics. Until I can change that, it gives me time to think about what I want and why. If and when I decide to take the next step, I want to approach it from a position of resolve and acceptance, not fear. I want to be able to defend with conviction my decision, and apologize to no one.

It's like you said earlier - you have these dark things in you that it seems you don't want anyone else to know about, but I bet you money that those things aren't any darker than what lurks in the dark corners of most BDSM oriented minds... hell if you wan to play a comparison game, I can just about promise there will always be someone more "disturbed" than you (or me, or anyone else). It's not just about sex, either... it can be really freaking disturbing to discover objectification is joy...

Trust me, the darkness in my head is scary to no one but me. I'm sure my thoughts and fantasies are quite benign compared to most on this forum. But, they are shrouded in fear, shame and denial nonetheless and only I can fix that. It wouldn't be fair to burden a potential partner with that kind of bullshit.

I'm sorry, as much as you argue that it isn't the case, you do believe that people into BDSM are 'effed up. Damaged, broken, screwed up, ill, disturbed, whatever... Somewhere in your core, you have not resolved that issue.

Yes, I have. I am aware that SOME of the activities practiced in BDSM are considered psychosexual disorders. SOME of the activities are learned behavior. And SOME of the activities are innate. I do know the difference. As for the psychosexual disorder crowd - yep, I believe there are serious underlying issues there. I will side with the medical and scientific community on this one, not with the people who ID as such. For the learned behavior group - nope, I do not necessarily believe all these people are maladjusted, but I suspect that many are for certain types of kinks, most are not for other types. As for those whose behavior is innate - obviously no. Here's where we end up splitting or crossing hairs: I believe that much of what passes for psychosexual disorder in the BDSM community is really just learned behavior. Sadism is a good example. True sadism is very rare and many who call themselves sadists are just kinky folk having a good time. I want to state for the record my position on sadism. Some in this forum believe it is not a disorder, is not harmful or unhealthy, and does not need to be fixed. I believe it is a disorder, does not have to be harmful or unhealthy, and does not necessarily need to be fixed. Is my position so abhorrent that I deserve to be ridiculed and insulted?(not that you have done this) Can we not just agree to disagree? For the record, I take the same stance as Netzach on this one: There are alot of fuck-up people in this lifestyle. Acknowledge it, deal with it, and get on with your life.

For whatever reason, you are unable to accept that Homburg can be a sadist just because he can (and likes it),..snip...

Yep, that's right. I am unable to accept that. An arsonist sets fires because they can and they like it. That is not the reason they do it. Further, if you agree to the psychiatric definition of sadist (look it up if you're not sure), and agree that Homburg is a sadist, then by definition he can't be one for no reason. BTW, many of the sadists who posted in the thread "Delving the psyche of sadists" on this forum took exactly the same position I do and I noticed that neither you nor Homburg nor anyone else disagreed with them, but somehow my opinion is wrong?

...snip...and that isn't a bad thing. Look at your own words.... he "redeemed himself" by admitting to a bad childhood? what the hell?

Never made any judgements as to whether it was good or bad. But, you are right, "redeemed" was a bad choice in words. That word has inflamed this conversation unnecessarily and for that I apologize. This is what Homburg said that I took exception to:

In short, I'm not really in this to compensate for any issues. Yep, that's right, I'm in it just because I'm a little bit fucked up. No reason. I just flat like tying people up and hitting them...snip...So, either I'm compensating for issues to deep for me to recognise, or, and this is the mostly likely explanation, my wiring is just a bit fucked. I'm fine with either explanation really. So I guess I'm your basic, normal guy that just gets off on hitting people and does so for no discernible historical reason. I should worry about that, but, meh.

I didn't buy it, and he didn't buy it either. Later, when he alluded to some darkness in his past, I accepted that as a possible reason, as opposed to no reason at all. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what I think of him or his kinks. I only offered my opinion because he asked for it.

I mean is that your last layer of protection from being like "those BDSM people"? Those people had abusive pasts so I can understand why they're so sick, but not me... no...

Nope. I hope I clarified my position on "those BDSM people" above.

Why? Seriously, why? I do not understand half the things I associate with my sexuality (I consider submissive as being a sexual orientation, for lack of a better term), but it doesn't prevent me from doing things that bring me pleasure and joy in a responsible manner. I couldn't explain it when I was stuck with "vanilla" sex/intimacy; I can't explain it with regards to kinky sex/intimacy... I don't need to understand why I need hugs, in order to accept them in a responsible manner... why do I have to understand why I enjoy erotic humiliation in order to enjoy it in a responsible way?

I never said that you do. All I said was that in order for me to trust someone, I need to know that they are in control, and part of being in control is understanding what makes us tick. That doesn't include every single behavior, Monica. Only those behaviors/activities which have potential to do harm. Erotic humiliation is not on that list. Public degradation would be.

And sometimes people do a shitload of introspection, therapy, reflection, work, assessment, psychodrama, etc and still have no fucking clue why they like what they like, love what they love, get hard when they get hard, or get wet when they get wet. Sometimes a penguin is just a penguin.

Yes, I agree. But you are talking about the entire spectrum of BDSM activities, and I am talking about a very narrow list.

Who says you have to be able to "be able to articulate why you do it, what you get out of it, what need does it meet for you, what triggers the urges, what is that line you would not cross, etc" in order to be a good sadist?

No one. All I said was that for me personally, in order to have trust, I need a potential partner to articulate beyond "I don't know" or "Just because it's fun." For those who don't really care, good for them. Is it so wrong that I do?

Good. Ask questions. Know what you need to hear to feel safe... but I'll tell you that in my experience, men I've spoken with who do discipline as part of a meaningful relationship, often say things like "because I can... because it is my will... because IMO you need it... because I want to." It really can be that simple, with no other reason behind things.

Yes, for some things I agree that it is exactly that simple.

No childhood issues, no hatred of women, no connectivity between past abuse and current life, no unresolved stuff... just a recognition of the supreme joy of watching a woman's eyes as she fights an internal battle, knowing the sensations are making her wet, recognizing she loves X as much as she hates it, struggling to succumb to his will.

And if a man could articulate what you just did, I would feel far more comfortable with him than the man who only says "Because it's fun."

Control is more important than motivation. The thing you seem to be struggling with, is that people don't necessarily have to understand themselves with all their "stuff" tied up in boxes with neat little bows, in order to have the utmost control. IMO, then people who don't fully understand "why" are the ones with the tightest control, because they respect the fact that the monster is rarely ever fully tamed...

Once again, you are overreaching alot of what I have said. For me personally, I prefer to be with someone who understands that part of themselves that is capable of doing great harm. That is not such a bad thing.

 

[half_full]

*sighs* Everyone has tried to give you opinions on how they feel about this topic. It just gets very frustrating when you shoot down everything anyone says to try to help. I think you have some inner turmoil that isn't going to be soothed by anything. That's my opinion..

P.S. I don't think your post is going to hurt her feelings much..read her sig line..lol

I have been receptive of all opinions. I've learned a few things, changed my mind about a few things, decided I was right about a few things, but I never approached this from the perspective that I had all the answers. If you have followed the entire thread, this would be evident. I haven't shot down or dismissed anything that anyone has said. I occasionally have to clarify my position and I have asked people to do the same. Some people have made assumptions, too many assumptions, and that is frustrating for me. BTW, I don't try to hurt people's feelings. It's not my style.

 

[half_full]

*Giggle* I love you, nh.

And, half_full, if you weren't asking questions you'd already chosen the answers to, I might feel more generous. If you're convinced that everyone who's involved in BDSM has issues that stem from their childhoods or whatever, there's not much I or anyone else say, is there?

Don't ask questions when you're already certain you have the answers to. "Very bad form."

Please show me one statement I've made (taken in context) to support yours in bold, I will gladly and publicly stand corrected. You aren't saying this because of anything I said. You are responding to CM's and Homburgs interpretations of what I said. It's hardly fair, is it?

 

[Netzach]

I wasn't trying to confirm or deny my degree of 'prudeness'. I was only trying to say that not wanting to play in public does not a prude make. Some of the members of this forum have publicly stated that they are private people and do not wish to discuss the details of their personal sex lives. That doesn't make them prudes.
Monica, this is really an unfair statement. I have stated a couple of times that I have spent 3 yrs researching and trying to understand this lifestyle and that my sources are numerous including, fiction and nonfiction books, articles, discussion groups and blogs. My library of reading material is quite extensive. VelvetDarkness suggested I 'experiment' by reading Lit stories. I replied to her that I had read them all and found them informative and entertaining. That's it. You read way too much into that statement. I can assure you that my foundation is not fantasy. I read extensively the message boards and blogs, including this one, of the people who participate in real life, and that is where I get most of my information about the kinds of things I'd like to avoid. I do recognize, however, that the online community may not be representative of the larger community.
I did get the point, and you are right, my concerns are not necessarily particular acts of sex. Although attending munches and seminars may be entertaining, those things will not quell my concerns. Neither will casually playing or 'experimenting.' But those concerns are deeply personal, can only be addressed by me and were never meant to be a topic for this thread.
Monica, this is simply not so and I've stated it several times. I am not in a position, for personal reasons such as a very demanding career where I have to travel ALOT, to enter into a relationship right now - any relationship - much less one based on unequal power dynamics. Until I can change that, it gives me time to think about what I want and why. If and when I decide to take the next step, I want to approach it from a position of resolve and acceptance, not fear. I want to be able to defend with conviction my decision, and apologize to no one. Trust me, the darkness in my head is scary to no one but me. I'm sure my thoughts and fantasies are quite benign compared to most on this forum. But, they are shrouded in fear, shame and denial nonetheless and only I can fix that. It wouldn't be fair to burden a potential partner with that kind of bullshit.
Yes, I have. I am aware that SOME of the activities practiced in BDSM are considered psychosexual disorders. SOME of the activities are learned behavior. And SOME of the activities are innate. I do know the difference. As for the psychosexual disorder crowd - yep, I believe there are serious underlying issues there. I will side with the medical and scientific community on this one, not with the people who ID as such. For the learned behavior group - nope, I do not necessarily believe all these people are maladjusted, but I suspect that many are for certain types of kinks, most are not for other types. As for those whose behavior is innate - obviously no. Here's where we end up splitting or crossing hairs: I believe that much of what passes for psychosexual disorder in the BDSM community is really just learned behavior. Sadism is a good example. True sadism is very rare and many who call themselves sadists are just kinky folk having a good time. I want to state for the record my position on sadism. Some in this forum believe it is not a disorder, is not harmful or unhealthy, and does not need to be fixed. I believe it is a disorder, does not have to be harmful or unhealthy, and does not necessarily need to be fixed. Is my position so abhorrent that I deserve to be ridiculed and insulted?(not that you have done this) Can we not just agree to disagree? For the record, I take the same stance as Netzach on this one: There are alot of fuck-up people in this lifestyle. Acknowledge it, deal with it, and get on with your life.Yep, that's right. I am unable to accept that. An arsonist sets fires because they can and they like it. That is not the reason they do it. Further, if you agree to the psychiatric definition of sadist (look it up if you're not sure), and agree that Homburg is a sadist, then by definition he can't be one for no reason. BTW, many of the sadists who posted in the thread "Delving the psyche of sadists" on this forum took exactly the same position I do and I noticed that neither you nor Homburg nor anyone else disagreed with them, but somehow my opinion is wrong? Never made any judgements as to whether it was good or bad. But, you are right, "redeemed" was a bad choice in words. That word has inflamed this conversation unnecessarily and for that I apologize. This is what Homburg said that I took exception to: I didn't buy it, and he didn't buy it either. Later, when he alluded to some darkness in his past, I accepted that as a possible reason, as opposed to no reason at all. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what I think of him or his kinks. I only offered my opinion because he asked for it.
Nope. I hope I clarified my position on "those BDSM people" above.
I never said that you do. All I said was that in order for me to trust someone, I need to know that they are in control, and part of being in control is understanding what makes us tick. That doesn't include every single behavior, Monica. Only those behaviors/activities which have potential to do harm. Erotic humiliation is not on that list. Public degradation would be.
Yes, I agree. But you are talking about the entire spectrum of BDSM activities, and I am talking about a very narrow list.
No one. All I said was that for me personally, in order to have trust, I need a potential partner to articulate beyond "I don't know" or "Just because it's fun." For those who don't really care, good for them. Is it so wrong that I do?
Yes, for some things I agree that it is exactly that simple. And if a man could articulate what you just did, I would feel far more comfortable with him than the man who only says "Because it's fun."
Once again, you are overreaching alot of what I have said. For me personally, I prefer to be with someone who understands that part of themselves that is capable of doing great harm. That is not such a bad thing.

Wow.

First of all, if I'd spent the 7 or 8 years before meeting the man I married reading blogs, I would not call that diving into reality. No insult intended, but reading what people say about themselves and say about what they do is versus actually meeting them, watching them, and talking to their faces off the record about S/M D/s for even a short time are two different things. Even with no duplicitous intent, how my life actually IS and the way anyone presents and edits themselves in writing about SM, distilled from the rest of their life, one is going to get a rather distorted picture.

Second, I don't like when people write off giant chunks of whatever a lot of other people suggest they consider. "I know a munch and actually meeting some people may be entertaining but it doesn't apply to me" isn't far off from the Tops who REFUSE to have a toy used on them by anyone else - it's fine if you want to be that way, but honestly, it trips my wires that this person's too insecure and immature to try something before deciding where they stand on it.

I don't look for that in either submissive or dominant partners, for myself.

Every single suggestion in this thread has been met with some reason why it's not appropriate for you, you can't do it, you aren't in a position to do it - I don't think Monica did anything unfair in noticing this. Everything in life is a choice. I didn't sit down and decide "I'll just stay with this vanilla relationship until I've established myself and then when I'm comfortable I'll jump ship and really live my life." I decided what I needed and I made it happen. Well, I wasn't THAT brave, it wasn't that clean, but I did make it happen, and I did know what I needed. I even had some really shitty experiences along the way - and my life didn't end. I kissed frogs, as it were. You appear, for fear of even MEETING a frog let alone kissing it, to dismiss the idea of dealing with people beyond being subjects of inquiry.


Can you possibly imagine why people in a community might not be elated when someone who has spent some years reading furiously comes in and decides that it's OK for them to slap a "disordered, but that's OK" label on them and their behavior when they don't see themselves this way?

Most contemporary therapy takes the stance that a behavior is a problem when it affects the subject's life in a negative and persistant way ie: if YOU think it's a problem, it's a problem. I tend to agree with my shrink on this one in regard to the way I feel when I make someone cringe or flinch or react to pain, not you.


Third, guess what - "erotic humiliation", candle wax, simply bondage - all of these things have the potential to do great harm. Every last one, not just the things you find edgy.

 

[CutieMouse]

*****

 

[Homburg]

I'm severely turned on.

Sadistic bastard.

Mommy like!

While I note that half_full has responded to others, and not my post, I am gong to quote somberReality here.

She shows perfectly the core reason behind why I do what I do. Why? Because what I do causes this reaction in her. And what she posted? Yeah, it got me grinning evilly and licking my lips just a little bit.

She likes what she saw, and I like how she responded. Everything else is window dressing.

*turns attention back to somberReality*

Come to Papa.

 

[Netzach]

While I note that half_full has responded to others, and not my post, I am gong to quote somberReality here.

She shows perfectly the core reason behind why I do what I do. Why? Because what I do causes this reaction in her. And what she posted? Yeah, it got me grinning evilly and licking my lips just a little bit.

She likes what she saw, and I like how she responded. Everything else is window dressing.

*turns attention back to somberReality*

Come to Papa.

Would analyzing WHY she's having this reaction really add a lot to it all? Does anyone ask WHY some women get wet being bought perfume?

 

[nh23]

I have been receptive of all opinions. I've learned a few things, changed my mind about a few things, decided I was right about a few things, but I never approached this from the perspective that I had all the answers. If you have followed the entire thread, this would be evident. I haven't shot down or dismissed anything that anyone has said. I occasionally have to clarify my position and I have asked people to do the same. Some people have made assumptions, too many assumptions, and that is frustrating for me. BTW, I don't try to hurt people's feelings. It's not my style.

Sadly.. I have followed this entire thread. I was giving you my opinion..and by reading the posts today I am not alone in that opinion. Netzach said it best, so I won't repeat it..

 

[Quint]

.............