Dominant - Love Involved

[FluteMaster]

Personally I don't understand how anyone actually gets submission without a mindset of some entitlement. I may have insecure days, but I do feel, at base level, that I am entitled to the service I get from the people I get it from. It's not like I walk through the world demanding submission of every lamp post and mailman on my route, but I can look in the mirror and honestly feel like I get what I require and expect and deserve. That's why it doesn't feel as much like "gift giving" but H expressing the natural order of the world between him and me. M and stud too, in less overt and consistent ways - but with any of these people, in major ways, my desires will be the governing factor. Because I'm a fucking brilliant, beautiful, and willful woman who makes things happen - not because someone's bestowing me with his favor.

Well, then you and I tick differently, and I can only acknowledge that. I am happiest as a Dominant, and most fulfilled. However, I also believe that I when a person submits to me, they are granting me a gift - the ability to be fully myself, in a way that I don't expect from others.

But your way works for you and yours, and mine works for me and mine, and it would appear we both are happy with it.

 

[FluteMaster]

Well, I could have articulated this better, but I gotta run. The mundane duties of life call. Maybe I can drink champagne later.

I'll save you a glass - and you can hold it for me while I drink it.

 

[the captians wench]

God, yes. Call me a bad subbie, but I absolutely will not even play with someone who doesn't express at least occasional appreciation for my submission.

So, yeah, in this thread, the running tally is that Bunny is not only a cynical bitch, but a brat to boot.

*giggles*

for me it tends to be totally unexpected. Infact I remember one friend of mine said thank you to me mid scene and I had never heard him say thank you to any one the whole time I'd known him. That was almost better than orgasm...almost.

 

[JMohegan]

Somehow, I can't help feeling that we are talking about the same thing, but from different ends. And yes, D/s for me is expected to cover every aspect of the relationship, or it's not the D/s that I seek, though I may draw the lines differently from you in terms expectations.

We also obviously agree with the "headspace" aspect, and I would expect that there will be times when what you want is not in accordance with what your submisive desires - and yet you still require and expect it. (See point 3 in my earlier post.) However, if you push that too far, and too often, and she is ending up consistently unhappy etc, then her gift may be withdrawn.

And please don't take this the wrong way - but I have gained quite a lot of experience in relationships, including 2 marriages, so I do know about the ups and downs.

No, we are not talking about the same thing. And no, we do not agree with the "headspace aspect".

For one thing, if we're talking about attitude, I'll note that I can relate very much to Netzach's comments about a "sense of entitlement", the "natural order of the world" between herself and her submissive, and her desires being the governing factor in their relationship.

And if we're talking about the way submission plays out on a day-to-day basis, your experiences and mine are markedly different.

You refused to answer my simple question, so I utilized the search function to find the answer.

On 3/6/07, in a post on the Distance-Domination Support Thread, you wrote:

Well, I'm not exactly a newbie on Lit, but I feel that somehow I'm introducing myself from scratch.

I discovered my interest in D/s and BDSM through a LDR with someone in the US, (to be fair, we discovered a mutual interest), and from that I learnt that I also like to write. However, that relationship ended after about 5 months last Summer, and since then I had been "subless" for a while.

A little while into the new year, however, I found a new partner in kink, also based in the US. It's tough, of course, and not for the faint hearted. But, when the right person comes along and you click....

So, with that intro, I am sure that we will be adding our own thoughts and experiences to those of everyone else on this brilliant thread.

In your most recent post to Netzach, you just described your "way" as working for you and yours, and making both of you happy. I do not dispute either of those facts.

But to compare your "way" to mine and say we are "talking about the same thing" is ridiculous, especially in a conversation in which I specifically asked you about D/s and the practical, mundane details of life.

 

[intothewoods]

You refused to answer my simple question, so I utilized the search function to find the answer.

On 3/6/07, in a post on the Distance-Domination Support Thread, you wrote:

In your most recent post to Netzach, you just described your "way" as working for you and yours, and making both of you happy. I do not dispute either of those facts.

But to compare your "way" to mine and say we are "talking about the same thing" is ridiculous, especially in a conversation in which I specifically asked you about D/s and the practical, mundane details of life.

I have to say, I'm not surprised you used the search function, but I am surprised you posted about it. The other boards I've been on - it's always been considered bad form to quote from one thread in an argument in another thread. But maybe not here. <shrug>

As to what you quoted ... it strikes me as a low blow. What's your point? He's a fake Dom? Yeah, he's my cyber Master, and I spend all day typing "yes Sir, may I have another?"

In that particular post, he was introducing himself, and keeping it somewhat vague as to the particulars. Neither of us feels like dishing out all the details of our presently complicated lives. Needless to say, he's not an "online Dom" and we aren't in an "online D/s relationship."

 

[lil_slave_rose]

i don't understand why, just beacuse i feel that submission is a gift that i don't just give away freely to any tom dick or harry that comes along and says 'Me Dom, you submissive, on your knees NOW slut' means that i feel i am doing my Master any favors by submitting to Him. i also see His Dominance to me as a 'gift'. what that has to do with the 'mundane parts of life' i have no clue. and if Master had the attitude that He was ENTITLED to my submission because He is a Dominant, i don't think i ever could have submitted to Him. now? yea, He is defiantly entitled to every little thing that i do for Him, as i am HIS submissive.

but had He approached me with the whole 'i'm Dominant so you WILL submit to me' i would have laughed in His face and moved on, as i owed Him nothing and He was entitled to nothing from me at that point. i CHOSE to give my submission to Him. and to me my submission is VERY special and not something that should just be given away to anyone, which is something i was taught by a very dear friend of mine and Master's who has been in this lifestyle a long time. actually alot of the things i've learned and the ways i feel were learned by her and also by Master, who was also 'taught' by her. *shrugs* obviously it's different for everyone and that's fine. there is no right or wrong way like a lot of people seem to portray there is on this board. we all have different ideas, different views. we are ALL different people and that's what makes the world go round.....

 

[JMohegan]

I have to say, I'm not surprised you used the search function, but I am surprised you posted about it. The other boards I've been on - it's always been considered bad form to quote from one thread in an argument in another thread. But maybe not here. <shrug>

As to what you quoted ... it strikes me as a low blow. What's your point? He's a fake Dom? Yeah, he's my cyber Master, and I spend all day typing "yes Sir, may I have another?"

In that particular post, he was introducing himself, and keeping it somewhat vague as to the particulars. Neither of us feels like dishing out all the details of our presently complicated lives. Needless to say, he's not an "online Dom" and we aren't in an "online D/s relationship."

My point, as I clearly stated, is that: "if we're talking about the way submission plays out on a day-to-day basis, your experiences and mine are markedly different."

If he dominates/dominated you and his previous submissive from across the Atlantic Ocean, I should think that point would be self-evident.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

My point, as I clearly stated, is that: "if we're talking about the way submission plays out on a day-to-day basis, your experiences and mine are markedly different."

If he dominates/dominated you and his previous submissive from across the Atlantic Ocean, I should think that point would be self-evident.

here we go with the online .VS. 'real life' again. Master and i, as most of you know, have been online/phone/cam/whatever for 3 years. does that mean that He did not 'control' my everyday life while He was 2000+ miles away? nope. He did and still does control what i do, even the MUNDANE parts of life. how much money i spend, where i spend it, days off from work (if i wanted to take one off, i asked Him first), parties, concerts, cleaning my house, taking my medication, etc etc etc...is it different 'face to face' of friggin course it is, for the physical stuff...but He's been in complete control of my life for the last 3 years (almost 4 now, just a couple more months )

obviously how it plays out for you, and how it plays out for FM is 'marekdly' different' it's that way for everyone. has nothing to do with Him doing it from across the ocean and you doing it 'face to face' it has everything to do with the fact that you two are different people......so why make it about 'online vs real life'?

again maybe i'm just tired and rambling, but i really did have a point.....

 

[Netzach]

i don't understand why, just beacuse i feel that submission is a gift that i don't just give away freely to any tom dick or harry that comes along and says 'Me Dom, you submissive, on your knees NOW slut' means that i feel i am doing my Master any favors by submitting to Him. i also see His Dominance to me as a 'gift'. what that has to do with the 'mundane parts of life' i have no clue. and if Master had the attitude that He was ENTITLED to my submission because He is a Dominant, i don't think i ever could have submitted to Him. now? yea, He is defiantly entitled to every little thing that i do for Him, as i am HIS submissive.

but had He approached me with the whole 'i'm Dominant so you WILL submit to me' i would have laughed in His face and moved on, as i owed Him nothing and He was entitled to nothing from me at that point. i CHOSE to give my submission to Him. and to me my submission is VERY special and not something that should just be given away to anyone, which is something i was taught by a very dear friend of mine and Master's who has been in this lifestyle a long time. actually alot of the things i've learned and the ways i feel were learned by her and also by Master, who was also 'taught' by her. *shrugs* obviously it's different for everyone and that's fine. there is no right or wrong way like a lot of people seem to portray there is on this board. we all have different ideas, different views. we are ALL different people and that's what makes the world go round.....

The notion of one's submission as a precious commodity given to only special and deserving powers is much more commonly accepted as the "right" way.

Not kowtowing to the experts proposing this as right is seen as weird and iffy. If I sound kind of crusty it's because I'm tired of being beaten over the head with how precious and special and deserving of care and protection any and every submissive inherently is (?!)

I've had my heart ripped out, my vulnerabilities exploited, my shit stirred -- all the things that happen with a "underappreciated gift" if you want to frame it that way. And you know what? Every Dom has. And no one says a word about it because the PC BS du jour is that submissives have to be protected from everything and if you fail to do that, you are "abusing the gift." Additionally, no one says anything because it's not particularly butch to point out that you needed her more than she needed you, so thinking of yourself your love and your dominance as a gift is suddenly arrogant.

Yeah, it's a big brave ballsy RISK to put yourself on the line for someone. I think it's cool to acknowledge the risk inherent in submission, but honestly all the virginity-type hype about treasure and guarding it DOES make me feel like I'm supposed to go and bend over backwards to prove my worth or else I'm not properly valuing submission to community standards.

Um, no. Either the submissive thinks I'm worth serving or he doesn't. Running around to "prove my worth" is suddenly putting me in a one-down position I don't care for.

 

[FluteMaster]

The notion of one's submission as a precious commodity given to only special and deserving powers is much more commonly accepted as the "right" way.

Not kowtowing to the experts proposing this as right is seen as weird and iffy. If I sound kind of crusty it's because I'm tired of being beaten over the head with how precious and special and deserving of care and protection any and every submissive inherently is (?!)

I've had my heart ripped out, my vulnerabilities exploited, my shit stirred -- all the things that happen with a "underappreciated gift" if you want to frame it that way. And you know what? Every Dom has. And no one says a word about it because the PC BS du jour is that submissives have to be protected from everything and if you fail to do that, you are "abusing the gift." Additionally, no one says anything because it's not particularly butch to point out that you needed her more than she needed you, so thinking of yourself your love and your dominance as a gift is suddenly arrogant.

Yeah, it's a big brave ballsy RISK to put yourself on the line for someone. I think it's cool to acknowledge the risk inherent in submission, but honestly all the virginity-type hype about treasure and guarding it DOES make me feel like I'm supposed to go and bend over backwards to prove my worth or else I'm not properly valuing submission to community standards.

Um, no. Either the submissive thinks I'm worth serving or he doesn't. Running around to "prove my worth" is suddenly putting me in a one-down position I don't care for.

Unfortunately, I think this discusson has moved beyond the point of saying what each of thinks "Gift of submission" means to an assumption that somehow we are also telling everyone else how they should be thinking.

Discussion = good

Dictating = bad

As I said, we have different ways of approching this, and most of us are happy with that.

In addition, I happen to agree with you that my Dominace is a gift given back - we each provide the space for the other to find their place in whatever form that we both desire

I emboldened this last part because I recognise that how I interact with a submissive is a way that would actually put off some submissives, but works for others. That doesn't make me less of a dominant or then less submissive. I would assume that the same occurs with you.

However - there are those on the scene, and I am not referring to those who have posted to date, who sadly need to be reminded that they are dealing with flesh and blood. I happen to believe that a submissive IS more vulnerable emotionally than a dominant. I happen to believe that a submissive IS more prey to finding themselves in an emotionally ebusive relationship than a dominant. As a result, I believe that the starting point in a relationship is respect and mutual appreciation along with eyes wide open and a healthy understanding of what is happening between consenting adults.

That said, I am not advocating pussyfooting around in some PC pair of fluffy bunny slippers. If you wish to use a flogger until there are bruises for a week, and your submissive accepts this as a your right as a part of their submission, (note - not likes, but accepts), then flog away and enjoy it.

It has always seemed to me that one of the main virtues of this lifestyle is that recognition that we can be ourselves and not some conformists to political correctness. I am a Dominant my way because that is how I am. That only ceases being acceptable when the person I express that dominance to becomes a net loser in terms of emotional and physical wellbeing.

 

[FluteMaster]

here we go with the online .VS. 'real life' again. Master and i, as most of you know, have been online/phone/cam/whatever for 3 years. does that mean that He did not 'control' my everyday life while He was 2000+ miles away? nope. He did and still does control what i do, even the MUNDANE parts of life. how much money i spend, where i spend it, days off from work (if i wanted to take one off, i asked Him first), parties, concerts, cleaning my house, taking my medication, etc etc etc...is it different 'face to face' of friggin course it is, for the physical stuff...but He's been in complete control of my life for the last 3 years (almost 4 now, just a couple more months )

obviously how it plays out for you, and how it plays out for FM is 'marekdly' different' it's that way for everyone. has nothing to do with Him doing it from across the ocean and you doing it 'face to face' it has everything to do with the fact that you two are different people......so why make it about 'online vs real life'?

again maybe i'm just tired and rambling, but i really did have a point.....

And it was well made too, lil_slave_rose. Thank you for your support - it was much appreciated.

 

[JMohegan]

here we go with the online .VS. 'real life' again. Master and i, as most of you know, have been online/phone/cam/whatever for 3 years. does that mean that He did not 'control' my everyday life while He was 2000+ miles away? nope. He did and still does control what i do, even the MUNDANE parts of life. how much money i spend, where i spend it, days off from work (if i wanted to take one off, i asked Him first), parties, concerts, cleaning my house, taking my medication, etc etc etc...is it different 'face to face' of friggin course it is, for the physical stuff...but He's been in complete control of my life for the last 3 years (almost 4 now, just a couple more months )

obviously how it plays out for you, and how it plays out for FM is 'marekdly' different' it's that way for everyone. has nothing to do with Him doing it from across the ocean and you doing it 'face to face' it has everything to do with the fact that you two are different people......so why make it about 'online vs real life'?

again maybe i'm just tired and rambling, but i really did have a point.....

It sounds as if he expends a great deal of effort managing the details of your life for you.

That is a flavor of control in which I have never had an interest, and I have never dated a woman who was interested in being managed this way.

Instead, I am interested in controlling the behavior of a submissive as she interacts in my world. My dining, my recreation, my chores, etc.

Once again, I note that if we're talking about the way submission plays out on a day-to-day basis, your experiences and mine are markedly different. And once again, I note that this difference should be self-evident.

 

[intothewoods]

My point, as I clearly stated, is that: "if we're talking about the way submission plays out on a day-to-day basis, your experiences and mine are markedly different."

If he dominates/dominated you and his previous submissive from across the Atlantic Ocean, I should think that point would be self-evident.

And my point is that you don't know the first thing about our relationship "on a day-to-day basis."

 

[lil_slave_rose]

It sounds as if he expends a great deal of effort managing the details of your life for you.

That is a flavor of control in which I have never had an interest, and I have never dated a woman who was interested in being managed this way.

Instead, I am interested in controlling the behavior of a submissive as she interacts in my world. My dining, my recreation, my chores, etc.

Once again, I note that if we're talking about the way submission plays out on a day-to-day basis, your experiences and mine are markedly different. And once again, I note that this difference should be self-evident.

JM, i have tried to bite my tongue here, but i don't understand why your posts always have to come off as your way is better than everyone else's. He doesn't 'micro manage' my life...you were talking about the 'mundane day to day activities' well those are our day to day activities....as they can be for now.....the difference is that we are DIFFERENT PEOPLE. but you always seem to want to make people explain things to you about their lives and then when they answer, and it's not the one you're looking for, you change the question slightly and then say they 'refused' to answer it. Master DOES control my behavior within our relationship, i do have chores, i do fix His dinner when He is here, etc....so tell me, how that so 'markedly' different than how it plays out in your world? oh, because you do it face to face 24/7? is that the difference?

last i knew there were a ton of different ways to live this lifestyle and no 'right' way and no 'wrong' way....whatever fits best for the couple involved...so when someone says 'submission is a gift' why not just say oh...well someone who thinks differently than me, instead of trying to make them prove themselves or their relationship to you....../Rant Over/

sorry everyone....maybe i shouldn't have posted, i'm tired and grumpy..it may be deleted soon actually.....

 

[JMohegan]

JM, i have tried to bite my tongue here, but i don't understand why your posts always have to come off as your way is better than everyone else's. He doesn't 'micro manage' my life...you were talking about the 'mundane day to day activities' well those are our day to day activities....as they can be for now.....the difference is that we are DIFFERENT PEOPLE. but you always seem to want to make people explain things to you about their lives and then when they answer, and it's not the one you're looking for, you change the question slightly and then say they 'refused' to answer it. Master DOES control my behavior within our relationship, i do have chores, i do fix His dinner when He is here, etc....so tell me, how that so 'markedly' different than how it plays out in your world? oh, because you do it face to face 24/7? is that the difference?

last i knew there were a ton of different ways to live this lifestyle and no 'right' way and no 'wrong' way....whatever fits best for the couple involved...so when someone says 'submission is a gift' why not just say oh...well someone who thinks differently than me, instead of trying to make them prove themselves or their relationship to you....../Rant Over/

sorry everyone....maybe i shouldn't have posted, i'm tired and grumpy..it may be deleted soon actually.....

I have stated that my flavor of control is different. Period.

Saying that my way is different is not the same thing as saying that my way is better.

That is an assumption or inference that you are making. Not me.

 

[JMohegan]

Master DOES control my behavior within our relationship, i do have chores, i do fix His dinner when He is here, etc....so tell me, how that so 'markedly' different than how it plays out in your world? oh, because you do it face to face 24/7? is that the difference?

1. Controlling the way you clean your own house, take your own medication, etc., is different than controlling the way you serve his personal needs of that type.

2. Taking care of his mundane personal needs during short visits is different than taking care of his mundane personal needs day-to-day over a sustained period of time.


Those are the differences I see.

 

[Netzach]

I have stated that my flavor of control is different. Period.

Saying that my way is different is not the same thing as saying that my way is better.

That is an assumption or inference that you are making. Not me.

Don't you get it? You have to agree and nod that there's no difference at all, no discernable difference worth anything, between being in a relationship with someone on another coast or country and one in the next room.

FWIW, my slave is live-out in another city. And we do a lot of things via the phone and via online communication. But saying "gee that's no less real than people in the same house" frankly never would occur to me. It's just as real - it's nowhere near as in-depth and in my face, and minimizing that difference, to me, makes no sense. You're not going to find me running around "my way is just as good..."

My way works for me well enough that it goes without saying. I'm certainly not going to intimate that it's interchangeable with someone living in and monogamous with their slave-as-lover. (God forbid, but that's another story)

 

[Netzach]

1. Controlling the way you clean your own house, take your own medication, etc., is different than controlling the way you serve his personal needs of that type.

2. Taking care of his mundane personal needs during short visits is different than taking care of his mundane personal needs day-to-day over a sustained period of time.


Those are the differences I see.

Boy you are a horrible person for pointing this out.

 

[Netzach]

However - there are those on the scene, and I am not referring to those who have posted to date, who sadly need to be reminded that they are dealing with flesh and blood

Submissives new to the scene are being taught on a daily basis that their time, attention and very nature is a commodity and that they are entitled to certain behaviors from Dominants not because they earn them, but because the very accident of *having submissive inclination* makes them special - now you have entered bizzaro world, where you have mysterious treasure that mere vanilla women don't have, and if a man doesn't treat it like gold, you make sure you take it elsewhere. We could easily be talking about pussy in 1960.

That's probably not how you're thinking when you are talking about the gift metaphor in your life - you don't strike me as a fan of inordinate silliness. But five minutes steeped in a lot of submissives' 101 references and I find myself wanting to run for the hills.

I value the submissives I have because they are special - as individuals among so many other individuals. Their submissiveness makes them attractive, hell - tolerable for me, as intimates. Without it, they wouldn't be the same.

But this rhetoric of "giving your special Gifts to the ONE, you'll know him when you meet him"

that's not objectifying somehow, to you? As one of the potential ONES floating around out there, the object now of fantasy and ridiculous expectation?

Mind you, ridiculous expectation isn't something that's foisted off on MDoms as blatantly as FemDoms, but I'm sure we all get our share. Additionally, there's no real roadmap for male submissives whatsoever. If a male submissive in search of a female dominant takes on this kind of "gift" philosophy and runs with it literally, he's not going to go far in the search for a Domme unless she really likes narcissists. Think about how it sounds from my gender perspective. A good submissive IS a gift, absolute manna from heaven. But it's up to ME to point that out, not him.


So, I'm not certain that the constant and persistant reminders of how submissives are such damn important and respect-worthy individuals we should be so lucky as to so much gaze upon is really the healthiest thing. If that's what it takes for Dominants to view potential partners as respect-worthy I worry about people in SM.

 

[intothewoods]

Don't you get it? You have to agree and nod that there's no difference at all, no discernable difference worth anything, between being in a relationship with someone on another coast or country and one in the next room.

Fwiw, Netzach, I think there's plenty of difference. You'll get no argument from me on that. Where I'm at -- I'm still learning about my nature, and BDSM and I'm not pretending to be an expert. I'm also dealing with the impact of this discovery on my vanilla life. I certainly don't claim to be an expert. But being here is one of the ways I am learning.

Submissives new to the scene are being taught on a daily basis that their time, attention and very nature is a commodity and that they are entitled to certain behaviors from Dominants not because they earn them, but because the very accident of *having submissive inclination* makes them special - now you have entered bizzaro world, where you have mysterious treasure that mere vanilla women don't have, and if a man doesn't treat it like gold, you make sure you take it elsewhere. We could easily be talking about pussy in 1960.

I hear you on this, and your frustration. And I can absolutely see how the rhetoric can take an unhealthy turn. When I discovered I was submissive, I clung to that line for a bit, because it helped me get over the guilt of admitting my nature and my needs, and also because I was talking to some real shitheads in chat rooms, and I needed to stop that and remind myself of I deserve better. So that's where I was coming from when I heard "submission is a gift."

 

[FluteMaster]

Submissives new to the scene are being taught on a daily basis that their time, attention and very nature is a commodity and that they are entitled to certain behaviors from Dominants not because they earn them, but because the very accident of *having submissive inclination* makes them special - now you have entered bizzaro world, where you have mysterious treasure that mere vanilla women don't have, and if a man doesn't treat it like gold, you make sure you take it elsewhere. We could easily be talking about pussy in 1960.

I value the submissives I have because they are special - as individuals among so many other individuals. Their submissiveness makes them attractive, hell - tolerable for me, as intimates. Without it, they wouldn't be the same.

But this rhetoric of "giving your special Gifts to the ONE, you'll know him when you meet him"

that's not objectifying somehow, to you? As one of the potential ONES floating around out there, the object now of fantasy and ridiculous expectation?

Um, not quite sure where that came from, and it took what I said about 5 steps beyond what I was saying.

1) I believe that D/s has, within it dynamics, greater potential to screw up people's minds than vanilla relationships. I'll argue why if you wish, but that is my belief.

2) potential is greater for Subs than for Doms (note greater - not unique)

3) THere are those (not subs), who play with subs and break them through ignorance etc.

4) They are the ones who need to learn that the submission is a gift, not a right.

So, I'm not certain that the constant and persistant reminders of how submissives are such damn important and respect-worthy individuals we should be so lucky as to so much gaze upon is really the healthiest thing. If that's what it takes for Dominants to view potential partners as respect-worthy I worry about people in SM.

On another point - overstating someone eles's case is not good practice.

I have never said this, I don't agree with it, and I object to that being used in a reply to my comments.

My comment about Gift was pure an simple - what the submissive gives is a gift. It doesn't make then more worthy or remarkable, but it is still a gift they give and not a right ad therefore some appreciation is a good idea.

Meanwhile, although I apprecate the gift my submissive gives me, I also reserve the pleasant right to spank, flog, use her for my pleasure as I as choose as and when possible.

 

[JMohegan]

It's just as real - it's nowhere near as in-depth and in my face, and minimizing that difference, to me, makes no sense.

Exactly. Thank you.

Similarly, my relationships have all been "just as real" as Marquis' relationships with C and lo.

But since I've had mine one at time, the challenges and flavor of the experiences have been markedly different. As you say - minimizing that difference would make no sense.

My way works for me well enough that it goes without saying. I'm certainly not going to intimate that it's interchangeable with someone living in and monogamous with their slave-as-lover. (God forbid, but that's another story)

Actually, I think in essence that "God forbid" *is* the story.

Your confidence in the way your relationships address your own needs is exactly the point, and the difference between a defensive reaction and a reasonable one.

 

[intothewoods]

Exactly. Thank you.

Similarly, my relationships have all been "just as real" as Marquis' relationships with C and lo.

But since I've had mine one at time, the challenges and flavor of the experiences have been markedly different. As you say - minimizing that difference would make no sense.


Actually, I think in essence that "God forbid" *is* the story.

Your confidence in the way your relationships address your own needs is exactly the point, and the difference between a defensive reaction and a reasonable one.

Minimizing the difference makes no sense. Agreed. But why bring it up in a discussion about submission as a gift? Because what your life looks like right now makes a difference? Or because your past experience makes a difference? Both? Fine. Just state it plainly then. No need to dick around.

 

[JMohegan]

Minimizing the difference makes no sense. Agreed. But why bring it up in a discussion about submission as a gift? Because what your life looks like right now makes a difference? Or because your past experience makes a difference? Both? Fine. Just state it plainly then. No need to dick around.

Per the OP, the topic of this thread is: "Will you Dom anyone who asks or do you need the connection."

The discussion has taken various twists and turns.

If you scroll back through the thread, you'll see that my initial hypothesis was that a difference in scope of our D/s experiences might explain a difference in perspective on the phrase "submission is a gift".

FM disagreed. No problem.

However, in post 49, he went on to assert that "we are talking about the same thing" and that we "obviously agree with the 'headspace' aspect".

My comments about the differences were made in response to that assertion by FM, and further in response to rose's comments and questions about the differences, which were specifically addressed to me.

 

[Netzach]

Um, not quite sure where that came from, and it took what I said about 5 steps beyond what I was saying.

1) I believe that D/s has, within it dynamics, greater potential to screw up people's minds than vanilla relationships. I'll argue why if you wish, but that is my belief.

2) potential is greater for Subs than for Doms (note greater - not unique)

3) THere are those (not subs), who play with subs and break them through ignorance etc.

4) They are the ones who need to learn that the submission is a gift, not a right.



On another point - overstating someone eles's case is not good practice.

I have never said this, I don't agree with it, and I object to that being used in a reply to my comments.

If you are unsure where that came from, then I am assuming you came to the perspective that submission is a gift from your own intuition or from some small-but-inspiring smippet out there. If you've read a lot of the materials that spend a lot of time on the gift analogy you wouldn't think I was overstating anything. *chuckle* just ask intothewoods, it seems. Just look around the community and see the reception anyone who doesn't spout the same line gets - "Submission is a gift and SM MUST be SSC."

As for who can be more messed up and how, I believe that maipulative, toxic and downright dangerous people come in all shapes and flavors - some of them the meekest and most compliant you can imagine. As for breaking people - I don't know that someone is going to do a 180 because of an analogy.

They're either going to care about people who are voluntarily putting themselves into a position of vulnerability because they can empathize with them or they lack the empathy or care to be able to do that.

Look, it works for you, like you said, great. I am passionately pointing out why it does not work for me and how it feels when it is so ubiquitously in ever nook cranny and darkened corner of your community - AND how it feels when it colors the attitude of your potentials - the scarcity of men who feel that they are there for ME and not the other way around is appalling. And frankly, without that mindset, that person is not, IMO suitable. My entire concept of who is and isn't submissive hinges on service and desire to serve, so showing up purporting to serve by giving me a list of reasons why I'd better remember to respect you and a complex list of your needs, rather than trying to determine mine, is failing at interview.