Eat Shit!

[Jack_Slade]

Has Common Sense flown out the window?

I gotta say, I find this whole "No Limit's" thing to be a Really stupid idea. What ever happened to common sense?

Thank the lord for this post, I agree 1 billion percent.

There's a HUGE difference between fantasy, reading about something and actually experiencing it or making it reality in your life. Keep telling future subs/slaves to look before they leap! Real life and the experience of getting limits stretched doesn't generally go the way it's described in porn stories. It can be painful, dirty, digusting, frustrating and emotionally wrenching.. If it goes badly, the wounds can be far more serious and long lasting than the little purple/red welts some people crave. This is the deep end of the submission pool and it's not the right place for everybody to swim.

Personally, I'll stay in the shallower water where I know I won't drown. I like my limits. They might change over time, but they're mine and I'm comfy with them right now. I'm really, truly glad I don't have to stretch in terms of scat.

 

[Recidiva]

I gotta say, I find this whole "No Limit's" thing to be a Really stupid idea. What ever happened to common sense?

Thank the lord for this post, I agree 1 billion percent.

I just think there's a put up or shut up clause here. Shutting up first off and then failing to put up are my choices in this scenario. NOT picking up the big red flag and waving it around. Leaving it carefully folded, respected, and not touching it heads off most of the unstoppable raging charges in life.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I also think that risk is something that's more and less attractive to certain people, and as a couple, if you are interested in slavery, this really should be a value you view the same way if you're going to do TPE or there are going to be some serious problems. Maybe not totally identically, but at least somewhere in the same neighborhood.

I don't think a risk-averse slave and a risk junkie owner are a good idea, JMO. Or the opposite.

I get what you are saying Netzach, but IMO you don't enter TPE if that is going to be a big concern you can't move past. Add to that there are things which may not be a risk one day but a real one the next day, sometimes without knowing. Measuring it against other life choices I see people do things everyday which mean they know they are risking life and limb (mountaineering, sky diving, motorcycle or car racing, crossing the road in heavy traffic without a crossing etc.,) but people still choose to take the risk...why is TPE any different in accepting there are risks and still deciding to go there?

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

I gotta say, I find this whole "No Limit's" thing to be a Really stupid idea. What ever happened to common sense?

Thank the lord for this post, I agree 1 billion percent.

Uh huh, but then if you are going to think it is not common sense and stupid, I imagine you advocate for the banning of alcohol, all sports which may cause death or serious injury (racing, boxing, football, diving etc.,), driving in heavy traffic, and for me on a disgusting level, having to clean a toilet someone else has used. Life is full of the dangerous and disgusting, just usually in those ways people do not expect anyone to object or be told they are stupid if it is their thing or they are a housewife expected to clean that grotty toilet after the males of the household have missed the target and just left it.

Catalina

 

[Recidiva]

I get what you are saying Netzach, but IMO you don't enter TPE if that is going to be a big concern you can't move past. Add to that there are things which may not be a risk one day but a real one the next day, sometimes without knowing. Measuring it against other life choices I see people do things everyday which mean they know they are risking life and limb (mountaineering, sky diving, motorcycle or car racing, crossing the road in heavy traffic without a crossing etc.,) but people still choose to take the risk...why is TPE any different in accepting there are risks and still deciding to go there?

Catalina

Or I can say it might be a bad idea to vow to love, honor and cherish through sickness and health. What IF your master gets an undiagnosed, incurable brain tumor that makes him think that you look best without limbs and eyes?

Sickness and health are not predictable events. Neither is reason and responsibility throughout an entire lifetime.

There are pretty things to say, that aren't pretty to do. Don't say them if you don't mean them. Not romantic, perhaps, but realistic. There's no real penalty for not saying them.

 

[Netzach]

I get what you are saying Netzach, but IMO you don't enter TPE if that is going to be a big concern you can't move past. Add to that there are things which may not be a risk one day but a real one the next day, sometimes without knowing. Measuring it against other life choices I see people do things everyday which mean they know they are risking life and limb (mountaineering, sky diving, motorcycle or car racing, crossing the road in heavy traffic without a crossing etc.,) but people still choose to take the risk...why is TPE any different in accepting there are risks and still deciding to go there?

Catalina

What I said was "be remotely on the same page on this issue as the person you plan on being with" - this is pretty standard relational advice for anything from business partnerships to marriage. Not don't take risks, or don't plan on it. How you FEEL about risk is an area of compatibility like how you FEEL about finances, TPE itself, children or where to live.

H and I are both generally risk-averse people enjoying a delayed adolescent sense of risk taking. This makes things interesting without anyone feeling bored stupid or violated. I thought the exploration would be really rewarding with him as opposed to other people because he clocks in where I do - he's not more of a risk junkie than I feel comfortable with and he's got the "hell yeah ok" fortitude when I want things.

There are people who love to drive really fucking fast and even in the wrong lane. Knock yourself out, find your bliss. The likelihood of it WORKING is increased by being with someone who appreciates driving really fast on some level.

You can do it anyway, as many people do with glaring areas of incompatibility which one or both learn to adapt to. But it's going to go a lot more smoothly and in a more likely to endure fashion if you are able to talk about this aspect and weigh it and know what you're getting into via what KIND of person you are with.

 

[intothewoods]

I know the 'what does no limits really mean' question has been discussed here before, but it's been a long while. So I was very pleasantly surprised to read the real descriptions here, and to discover that the reality is that there are some things pyls wouldn't do, or might try and fail, or say, I know I can't do this, I'm sorry. I really enjoy learning about the reality and the everyday stuff. Just thought I'd say that.

 

[Netzach]

Or I can say it might be a bad idea to vow to love, honor and cherish through sickness and health. What IF your master gets an undiagnosed, incurable brain tumor that makes him think that you look best without limbs and eyes?

Sickness and health are not predictable events. Neither is reason and responsibility throughout an entire lifetime.

There are pretty things to say, that aren't pretty to do. Don't say them if you don't mean them. Not romantic, perhaps, but realistic. There's no real penalty for not saying them.

What if people say things like that because they're a hope and an ideal which you know you're going to fall short on, at some point. But it's like facing mecca, you know where to point.

The moment people get really REALLY literal these things always fall apart into semantic argument. I believe in letting people have ideals, whether it's being a slave or being a mother or a husband.

 

[Netzach]

I know the 'what does no limits really mean' question has been discussed here before, but it's been a long while. So I was very pleasantly surprised to read the real descriptions here, and to discover that the reality is that there are some things pyls wouldn't do, or might try and fail, or say, I know I can't do this, I'm sorry. I really enjoy learning about the reality and the everyday stuff. Just thought I'd say that.

Personally I always found poo or no poo really kind of a weird argument to see go circular and blow up. In the community of pros it's a personal subjective thing that people aren't terrified to talk about in detail, it's not the be-all-end-all of slavely sacrifice, it's just some shit. There's always someone who wanders through going "eat SHIT? you're eating SHIT??!?!?!" and everyone says, uh yeah, exactly, whatever. Go away and talk about your thing somewhere else.

It's a personal preference like, I like to cane people. I don't. Not woo woo you are so extreme if you do.

 

[SweetGigi]

I know this thread has helped me out a LOT in reading it. It has helped me realize a lot of the things I could well be put through if he so chooses. Several fears have surfaced and have been discussed at length (or as at length a 3am phone call can allow) and will continue to be discussed as time goes on. But in the end.... it matters most to me (and to him) to always be willing and to always try what he demands. The success of a task is always stellar, but there are gonna be times when I simply don't succeed. While I shouldn't rely on that fact, it can be a comforting thought if/when those times come.

I've also come to realize, through this thread, that circular discussions do nothing but cause ulsers. Hopefully with help, I'll learn to avoid these conversations more and more.

 

[intothewoods]

What if people say things like that because they're a hope and an ideal which you know you're going to fall short on, at some point. But it's like facing mecca, you know where to point.

The moment people get really REALLY literal these things always fall apart into semantic argument. I believe in letting people have ideals, whether it's being a slave or being a mother or a husband.

I'm pretty sure I'm one of those who need my ideals. Maybe I will fall short, but whoever I'm doing my best for - Mister Man, my kidlet, my friends, my clients - deserve my very best, and so that's what I aim for.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Or I can say it might be a bad idea to vow to love, honor and cherish through sickness and health. What IF your master gets an undiagnosed, incurable brain tumor that makes him think that you look best without limbs and eyes?

Sickness and health are not predictable events. Neither is reason and responsibility throughout an entire lifetime.

There are pretty things to say, that aren't pretty to do. Don't say them if you don't mean them. Not romantic, perhaps, but realistic. There's no real penalty for not saying them.

Couldn't agree more, and that is why choice remains a valuable thing to consider carefully before relinguishing it. I actually don't think many PYL's in TPE intend to harm or kill their pyl, but there are certain areas that some wish to go which others will not consider and can go either way, damage or not....there is also the question of subjectivity whereby a pyl may feel something is damaging but really it is more it is not something they wish or feel they can do. No one forces another to accept TPE, or at least unless they are abusive they don't, why is it so many have problems accepting it is a choice some make and want to water it down to fitting into the boundaries of non-TPE?

I think football and boxing are 2 of the most dangerous sports/professions one can choose, but I don't feel compelled to tell those who choose to be involved in those sports that they are stupid to take such risks with their bodies, brains especially, and feel it should be modified to fit something more acceptable to me and/or developed into something which doesn't resemble the original sport in the least, but is safe, predictable and wonderful. Some people are not cut out for TPE, some are not cut out for non-TPE, some move from one to the other.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

What I said was "be remotely on the same page on this issue as the person you plan on being with" - this is pretty standard relational advice for anything from business partnerships to marriage. Not don't take risks, or don't plan on it. How you FEEL about risk is an area of compatibility like how you FEEL about finances, TPE itself, children or where to live.

H and I are both generally risk-averse people enjoying a delayed adolescent sense of risk taking. This makes things interesting without anyone feeling bored stupid or violated. I thought the exploration would be really rewarding with him as opposed to other people because he clocks in where I do - he's not more of a risk junkie than I feel comfortable with and he's got the "hell yeah ok" fortitude when I want things.

There are people who love to drive really fucking fast and even in the wrong lane. Knock yourself out, find your bliss. The likelihood of it WORKING is increased by being with someone who appreciates driving really fast on some level.

You can do it anyway, as many people do with glaring areas of incompatibility which one or both learn to adapt to. But it's going to go a lot more smoothly and in a more likely to endure fashion if you are able to talk about this aspect and weigh it and know what you're getting into via what KIND of person you are with.

So true.

Catalina

 

[Recidiva]

What if people say things like that because they're a hope and an ideal which you know you're going to fall short on, at some point. But it's like facing mecca, you know where to point.

The moment people get really REALLY literal these things always fall apart into semantic argument. I believe in letting people have ideals, whether it's being a slave or being a mother or a husband.

Yes, I agree. Part of my process is being very honest and realistic. Even though I'm prone to some really romantic gestures and flowery words, when it comes down to it, I am aware that in any venture there is a possibility, however remote, of failure. I cannot be brought to discount this possibility in words.

However - say there's a defining action that makes me realize how dedicated I am even when not asked to be. A few years ago I was out walking our dog. He's a fluffy little bit of elderly loud nothing. There was a Rottweiler loose in the neighborhood. He came charging straight up to us and I didn't think, I threw myself over this stupid barky dog to protect him. If someone had asked me ahead of time in a calm moment what I would do in that situation, I'd have said "Well, my life is more valuable than the dog's, I should obviously protect myself." I didn't. I put myself right at ground level to getting myself chewed to death instinctively. One of my thoughts later when I was asking myself why was "Because I didn't want to go home and tell him his dog was dead and I did nothing about it." Turns out the Rottweiler backed off and was probably confused by this human-covered dog. But I didn't care at that moment, my body just leaped in there on an ideal. I find myself doing this often enough to get that I'm just instinctively going to act in incredibly stupid ways at times, but that it's usually to protect something or someone I love. And that person is usually not me. Reason is the only thing I have to protect me from driving myself into the ground every day and not being of any use to anyone. Whether or not my husband would have wanted me chewed to death to protect his dog is also irrelevant. Wouldn't have stopped my instinctive action.

I believe in freedom of ideals and action. I know reasonably that I will say of course I can't be dedicated 100%. Then I find in moments of action, I am. The freedom to hold on to both of those things is what I'm defending. My reasonable words and my incredibly stupid (at times) actions that have their own wisdom, if not thought.

 

[JMohegan]

Master was telling me some of his more depraved fantasies last night. Things escalated as we tried to out-squick each other and Master joked that one day he'd have me eat his shit just to teach me a lesson.

"Thank goodness I trust you not to do that." I said.

"So you think you've got limits now?" He replies.

"Well I know I could never eat your shit. You couldn't make me do it."

"But if you have ceded your limits to me, you don't get to make those decisions. You should be able to say 'I would do anything Master' and trust that I wouldn't make you eat my shit."

"But if I know I could never do it, to say 'I would do anything' and hope that I only get asked to do things that I would have consented to anyway, makes the whole thing meaningless."

"Exactly. You have given yourself to me. There are no half measures. If I set scat as a task for you, you as my property are bound to obey."

"I know I simply couldn't do it. That is the one salient truth to me. To say 'I would do anything' when I know without question that some things are physically and/or mentally beyond me as a slave just feels stupid."

Cue a circular discussion that we haven't resolved yet.

I have a strong faith in my TPE slavery and this flippant discussion has unsettled me and made me question exactly how far my submission goes. There are still some things that I simply couldn't do but I never really considered before quite how far Master could move the goalposts if he wanted to. I don't see the point of saying that my slavery is total when I know that there are still some things that I would have to refuse to do. When I point out to Master that some things would damage me psychologically if I were forced to do them he says that isn't the point. I think it is. I think it falls under his duty of maintenance of his slave and concern for my basic welfare. He insists that this is a completely separate issue. Either I am his property to use however he wishes or I am not.

Incidentally, eating shit was just a handy hypothetical here. It's not a relevant or prescient issue and I still believe that Master has no interest whatsoever in any form of scat.

Thoughts?

P.S. Can I please just head off the 'what if he asked you to kill someone?' comments before they start? I am talking purely in terms of personal service to my Master. If he ever asked me to do something that fell completely outside my moral code I would refuse. I'm a decent human being, not an automaton.

I'm not into the slavery thing, or the TPE thing, but I do find it tremendously off-putting to be told by an established partner what I can and can not do.

*All* people have limits, in the sense that certain activities would damage their physical or mental health, their fundamental trust in a partner, or the strength or sustainability of their relationship.

In an established, committed relationship, my job is to understand where those limits are at any given point in time - and to behave accordingly. Her job is to trust me, and to obey.

Looking at your example and wording above, from my perspective I'd say the discussion misses the point. The question is not: Do you trust that he wouldn't make you eat shit? Instead, the question is: Do you trust that he wouldn't purposefully damage your health, your trust, or the strength and sustainability of your relationship?

It's a simple question, but one on which the entire relationship hinges. The key point is therefore not debatable, and not up for argument - circular or otherwise.

 

[Netzach]

Looking at your example and wording above, from my perspective I'd say the discussion misses the point. The question is not: Do you trust that he wouldn't make you eat shit? Instead, the question is: Do you trust that he wouldn't purposefully damage your health, your trust, or the strength and sustainability of your relationship?

It's a simple question, but one on which the entire relationship hinges. The key point is therefore not debatable, and not up for argument - circular or otherwise.

That is a two person job however.

When that comes up, it may not be the issue of the person who needs to do the trusting. When I get answers I don't like it's because I've failed to stitch up the hole in the safety net, 99 percent of the time.

 

[JMohegan]

That is a two person job however.

When that comes up, it may not be the issue of the person who needs to do the trusting. When I get answers I don't like it's because I've failed to stitch up the hole in the safety net, 99 percent of the time.

I'm not sure what you mean by "that" here. If you mean "establishing and maintaining trust", then I completely agree - that is a two person job.

Rephrasing my earlier comment, I'll put it like this. In an established, committed relationship, my job is to consistently behave in a trustworthy fashion. Her job is to respond accordingly.

Nothing is perfect, obviously. Everyone slips up at some point over the long haul.

 

[Pure]

note to JM

hi!

as to your points:

JM earlierI'm not into the slavery thing, or the TPE thing, but I do find it tremendously off-putting to be told by an established partner what I can and can not do.

*All* people have limits, in the sense that certain activities would damage their physical or mental health, their fundamental trust in a partner, or the strength or sustainability of their relationship.

In an established, committed relationship, my job is to understand where those limits are at any given point in time - and to behave accordingly. Her job is to trust me, and to obey.

Looking at your example and wording above, from my perspective I'd say the discussion misses the point. The question is not: Do you trust that he wouldn't make you eat shit? Instead, the question is: Do you trust that he wouldn't purposefully damage your health, your trust, or the strength and sustainability of your relationship?

It's a simple question, but one on which the entire relationship hinges.

---
[JM more recent]

...If you mean "establishing and maintaining trust", then I completely agree - that is a two person job.

Rephrasing my earlier comment, I'll put it like this. In an established, committed relationship, my job is to consistently behave in a trustworthy fashion. Her job is to respond accordingly.

===
pure: i think these are good points that go to the basics of a relationship. well stated!

what i'd like to hear further is about their realization in a situation where B is subject to A, in some manner, but to a substantial degree.

for instance, if A directs things, how does A show 'trustworthiness', that isn't just what any friend of B might show?

second, is B expected to evaluate that trustworthiness.? obviously yes in the extreme cases: most B's won't go murder someone, and so a directive to do so would prove that A wasn't trustworthy, and cause B is leave.

but in the other cases, less extreme, if i may use an analogy, to say 'yes' [i.e. evaluate] would be like asking a child or teen to evaluate the parenting they're getting. a) they're not likely to be good judges, and b) it is arguably not their place to say, "i've decided your parenting leaves something to be desired, so i'm going to ignore your direction to say, come home before dark."

third, looking at B's side, i presume s/he is to show trust (A being worhty of it). again, what is B doing that she wouldn't with a friend, FR? B might, if she was leaving town, transfer a sum of money to FR, with the idea being that B's rent and bills get paid while B is out of town. obedience is part of the answer, obviously.

 

[snowbyte]

you could have given me a little more warning. I'm scarred for life now.

"A little part of you died inside. That was the weak part. Now you are stronger."

 

[Desdemona]

I think you're right.

To me success is a process involving struggle with issues along the way. At least that's my experience.

I didn't even learn how to tie my shoes without failing a few times, struggling with coordination and fine motor skills, and frustration.

Everything worth doing is worth doing badly at first.

I'm not at all saying you should be okay with failure or being set up to fail. Although learning to fail with grace and an eye toward improving the next effort is a valuable learning tool. If you dissolve into a humiliated heap at every failure, learning progresses more slowly. You become afraid of the learning process itself. It's counter productive. My son's autistic. When I tried to teach him to read...trembling and fear and horror. Dude, it's the alphabet. It doesn't bite. He was humiliated by not already being a master at something he never bothered to learn. Having it demonstrated that he was ignorant of something of value made him want to run away. It was a blow to his ego. Because he was great and self-taught at numbers. But as he gained confidence in mastering a few words, he could sit still and listen without wanting to flee. Started to grasp how words and language have value, are worth mastering. Now he can do his homework without tears and humiliation.

We might just be suffering here from a lack of clarity on how I'm using "struggle" in context.

It's a struggle to lose weight, to break an addiction, to master a craft, to follow a law. These are worthwhile struggles. Positive struggles, where you fight each day to counteract entropy and get better at what you do. Discovery and fine tuning. Willingness to admit you're not inherently perfect, there's more to learn, more to do each day.

Destructive struggles, I think are wastes of time and that's not what I'm trying to illustrate.

We each view/define the word struggle differently. When I think of things that cause me to struggle, the overwhelming emotion I experience is anger. Lots and lots of anger on a scale that is hard to describe. That's why struggle just doesn't work for me. It has to do with all my baggage from earlier relationships.

I'm cool with working hard to achieve something, to get it right, to fine tune it as you put it. I don't have to get it right the first time, although I really like it if I can make that happen. If you call it a challenge, I'm good with it. But if I start thinking of it as a struggle, I shut down and go to a very bad place mentally/emotionally.

We don't even do play struggle... if I'm restrained, I'm restrained. The whole struggling against the restraints thing (or against being held down thing) doesn't work for me these days. In fact, emotionally, it can go bad quickly and we both know that. And I guess that's my point about limits, too. We've come to a place where we know what my limits are and we have agreed that pushing them, at least for now, is not a good thing. That doesn't mean I don't do things I dislike or at times find repugnant. It just means that we generally don't go past a certain point. We're all different and that's cool.

For those of you who wish to proceed down the scat trail, I wish you well and hope you don't get sick.

 

[Recidiva]

We each view/define the word struggle differently. When I think of things that cause me to struggle, the overwhelming emotion I experience is anger. Lots and lots of anger on a scale that is hard to describe. That's why struggle just doesn't work for me. It has to do with all my baggage from earlier relationships.

I'm cool with working hard to achieve something, to get it right, to fine tune it as you put it. I don't have to get it right the first time, although I really like it if I can make that happen. If you call it a challenge, I'm good with it. But if I start thinking of it as a struggle, I shut down and go to a very bad place mentally/emotionally.

We don't even do play struggle... if I'm restrained, I'm restrained. The whole struggling against the restraints thing (or against being held down thing) doesn't work for me these days. In fact, emotionally, it can go bad quickly and we both know that. And I guess that's my point about limits, too. We've come to a place where we know what my limits are and we have agreed that pushing them, at least for now, is not a good thing. That doesn't mean I don't do things I dislike or at times find repugnant. It just means that we generally don't go past a certain point. We're all different and that's cool.

For those of you who wish to proceed down the scat trail, I wish you well and hope you don't get sick.

Yes, I think we can meet on that ground and agree there. I'm not big on useless struggle or dramatic struggle. I tend to use restraints like a workout. I'm not helplessly thrashing.

It's like a trip to the gym. Theoretically awful things are happening - muscle fibers tear and pain and dehydration and boredom and...and then over time those fibers heal and there's more muscle. The pain and dread changes to endorphins and purpose when you enter the gym, and you remember to bring a bottle of water every time you go.

But that's if you're using the equipment correctly. If you're banging your head on the freeweights, you won't get the same result.

 

[rida]

(stunning AV btw, very Geisha)

thank you　m（＿＿）*

.....
Another really good point. I have conflict here because I would not like to 'fail' at serving him. I know that at this moment in time I would be physically and psychologically incapable of eating his shit. To pretend otherwise feels dishonest to me. If Master is focused on my willingness, rather than the task, then I know that my desire to serve and obey is there. I will have to trust him to be sensible about the limits he sets for he and hope that scat remains one of them.

The not liking to fail and the not wanting to be dishonest are two of my personality major defining trait. In an everyday life situation, I have no problem accepting failure and committing the dishonest by omission sin if I deem total honesty to be detrimental.
But in a power exchange dinamyc, failure is not acceptable anymore and any form of dishonesty feel as if I am taking some power back and thous break the core of the dynamic.

 

[catalina_francisco]

For those of you who wish to proceed down the scat trail, I wish you well and hope you don't get sick.

I think for many it has nothing to do with wishing to.

Catalina

 

[Desdemona]

Point taken

I think for many it has nothing to do with wishing to.

Catalina

But, I guess in some respects it is a "wish" since there was a committment to TPE and there is the wish/need/desire to serve without reservation or right to refuse. I know that if some of you who have experience with this were asked to choose, you definitely would not pick scat from the menu. There are others who would say, "bring it on!" It's one of those concepts that's hard for me to express in writing.

For me, it's not hypothetical. I've been given tasks that were completed in spite of the fact that every aspect of my being was screaming "no! please, not that! don't make me do it!". I pushed through and did it anyway, because I wanted to please and to serve. It wasn't scat; it was something else, but the concept is the same.

 

[Desdemona]

Hey sweets

I am so with you on this one! Thank you for saying it much better than I tried to earlier before I just closed out my window.

Thanks. I'm not surprised we agree. To me, this thread is more about what it means to give up limits, than it is about being forced to eat shit.

I wrote all that because Catalina's post reminded me of a time, early on, when I romanticised all aspects of submission/slavery. I thought it would be cool to be in a no limits relationship. I thought I was ready for TPE. I thought I could give up my right to a safe word. I thought I was one who could do anything for my dominant.
After some time in the real world of D/s, I found out just how wrong I was.

I'm not sure how much good it does to keep telling people who are new to this to be careful. I think that frenzied desire to experience submission and all those nasty kinky things that have been hidden in the fantasy world really does cloud judgement for a lot of people. I've known subs who have been seriously injured because of this frenzy. They accept collars way too soon. They give up rights to safewords way too soon. They do this stuff before they even know what works for them and what is a bad idea for them all in the pursuit of kinky fun. Don't get me wrong, I'm all about kinky fun.... I just know that it needs to be kept in the realm of SSE... especially if you're new.

I believe the discussions here can be helpful. They have been for me in the past and probably will be in the future. I just wish there was a way to take the rose colored tint off the fantasy aspect for people who are taking their first steps into this life. I don't want to take the fun out of it, I just want people to stop and think carefully about what they agree to do before they start. Scat is just one example of things that can come up over time in relationships that we may not anticipate when we first enter into a power exchange agreement. As VelvetDarkness said in the initial post, it can be unsettling and in my mind, that's an understatement.