Eat Shit!

[VelvetDarkness]

Or I can say it might be a bad idea to vow to love, honor and cherish through sickness and health. What IF your master gets an undiagnosed, incurable brain tumor that makes him think that you look best without limbs and eyes?

Sickness and health are not predictable events. Neither is reason and responsibility throughout an entire lifetime.

There are pretty things to say, that aren't pretty to do. Don't say them if you don't mean them. Not romantic, perhaps, but realistic. There's no real penalty for not saying them.

Well, just as if we were married (and we intend to be when finances and other things are in place) I wouldn't leave him because he was ill. I wouldn't consent to being a blind quadriplegic but I would continue to care for him and ensure he got the help he needed in order not to be a serious danger to himself or others.

I'm well aware that sickness and health aren't predictable events as we both have ongoing health issues and sometimes it seems as though we're destined never to be feeling happy and healthy at the same time.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

What if people say things like that because they're a hope and an ideal which you know you're going to fall short on, at some point. But it's like facing mecca, you know where to point.

The moment people get really REALLY literal these things always fall apart into semantic argument. I believe in letting people have ideals, whether it's being a slave or being a mother or a husband.

I agree with all this. I'm not having a crisis of faith, the last few days have just given me a lot to think about is all. Sometimes something will remind me of how total Master's ownership of me is and if I'm having a low day it can make me feel apprehensive and not having any power or control any more occasionally makes me feel helpless in a bad way. We are still fairly new to our dynamic and although I have no regrets I do often wonder what the future will bring for us.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

Looking at your example and wording above, from my perspective I'd say the discussion misses the point. The question is not: Do you trust that he wouldn't make you eat shit? Instead, the question is: Do you trust that he wouldn't purposefully damage your health, your trust, or the strength and sustainability of your relationship?

It's a simple question, but one on which the entire relationship hinges. The key point is therefore not debatable, and not up for argument - circular or otherwise.

I do trust him. I have never had any cause to doubt his concern for my welfare.

It's a fairly new thing for me though, to be very aware that what is and is not acceptable behaviour on his part is not my decision any more. As Cat said, he can and will do things that I find very unpleasant or difficult at the time. There is no concept of fairness in our dynamic. At all times I exist for the sole function of serving him in everything I do. Unless I'm seriously unwell, that involves quite a lot of work on my part. I don't get to say when I've reached the extent of my tolerance to something or am physically and emotionally fatigued. 'Not tonight darling' has been officially and irretrievably expunged from my vocabulary.

I do trust him, but these things haven't really been tested yet. I can't know yet just how far he will consider it acceptable to push me. I'm very much at the start of this journey and having put my money where my mouth is and signed the contract, my life is now in his hands. Neither of us has any experience in TPE which means that Master is very much making it up as he goes along. I know there will be mistakes and I know it is likely that I'll bear the brunt of them.

So while I do trust him, there is still this apprehension. It's also about self doubt on my part as to whether I can be everything he expects of me. You can buy all the equipment and do all the training to climb a mountain but there's still no saying that you'll survive the trip. Anything that involves sustained risk and M/s is pretty risky in terms of BDSM play and the effects of TPE on an existing relationship. If this doesn't work out for us in the long term (and I have no reason to think that it won't) it will be very awkward and difficult to change our dynamic.

There is an overwhelming sense of 'all or nothing' when it comes to TPE. I do feel like it's a gamble. As I've staked everything on it, I have a very healthy fear of losing.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

Eureka!

The not liking to fail and the not wanting to be dishonest are two of my personality major defining trait. In an everyday life situation, I have no problem accepting failure and committing the dishonest by omission sin if I deem total honesty to be detrimental.
But in a power exchange dinamyc, failure is not acceptable anymore and any form of dishonesty feel as if I am taking some power back and thous break the core of the dynamic.

This is a very insightful post and it has been a lightbulb for me, as was this one a way back:

...the whole area is paradoxical; the paradoxes are highlighted when the bottom tries to be in charge of dealing with them.

The very fact that it me here sitting and having these thoughts and not Master makes this whole things largely an irrelevance. While I need to be secure in my place and reassure myself that I am happy there and performing well, issues like these are essentially none of my business these days.

This has been such an epiphany for me.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

Fuck it. I'll bite.

I gotta say, I find this whole "No Limit's" thing to be a Really stupid idea. What ever happened to common sense?

Thank the lord for this post, I agree 1 billion percent.

You have a perfect right to your opinion but I really don't see the point of posting just to be negative and rude.

Didn't your Mom ever tell you that if you can't say anything nice you should shut the hell up?

This forum is dedicated to free speech. Everybody is going to find things around here that they strongly disagree with. Trick is to live and let live for the sake of the Lit community as a whole.

 

[catalina_francisco]

But, I guess in some respects it is a "wish" since there was a committment to TPE and there is the wish/need/desire to serve without reservation or right to refuse. I know that if some of you who have experience with this were asked to choose, you definitely would not pick scat from the menu. There are others who would say, "bring it on!" It's one of those concepts that's hard for me to express in writing.

For me, it's not hypothetical. I've been given tasks that were completed in spite of the fact that every aspect of my being was screaming "no! please, not that! don't make me do it!". I pushed through and did it anyway, because I wanted to please and to serve. It wasn't scat; it was something else, but the concept is the same.

I think it differs for each person, and to accept the challenge does not necessarily mean it is about rose coloured glasses or over romanticising the dynamics involved. For me, part of accepting to give up limits means not wasting energy on wishing for something I would enjoy in another reality or debating whether I would wish to do the unthinkable in a vanilla relationship or one with allowed limits. To believe that is a valid comparison to make is to me pointless and setting yourself up for failure and a severe shock if you make the plunge. It is sort of like people who spend their whole lives wishing they had different parents, or were a different race, or were more intelligent etc.,...it might be nice for that person, but pointless because no amount of wishing is going to make it a reality.

I love challenges...in my life before D/s I set myself many challenges, often ones others believed were impossible, but the fact I felt at times I couldn't do them was the exact same reason I did succeed...it is part of what drives me in life and makes waking up each day worthwhile. Without it I sink into the depths of depression. In relationships I have had some very nice men who spoiled me rotten, would have given me all I wanted, were actually fairly good and fun company, intelligent, and who on some level I loved...the reason why I didn't stay with them was I wanted more than predictable, safe and equal...in part that is probably a big part of what also attracted me to TPE and why I have not been disappointed when thrown in the deep end and told to swim or drown.

I think it is still important to remind people who are new and perhaps caught up in the fantasy what the reality may bring, but what they do with it then is their choice and doesn't necessarily mean they are out of touch with reality if they choose to go ahead. I agree many accept a collar quickly like it is a trophy on a scavenger hunt which must be done as quick as possible to get to the next goal post, and some who go into TPE will decide later it was a mistake, but not all feel it was a mistake, and not all ignore the cautions of others. It may seem they do when they go ahead anyway, but that is our subjective opinion at times more so perhaps than their reality.

Catalina

 

[Homburg]

I have to agree that I think the failure thing is something more people ought to reconsider. I think that if there aren't any failures at all then something isn't really working on my part. The bar is not high enough. Maybe not outright failures but certainly a good dose of "huh, that wasn't what I expected to happen at all."

I think that sounded like I advocate setting slaves up to fail. No. I think that's super-shitty to do to a service oriented person. You set them up to succeed and if that doesn't happen that's OK, it's more information, it's a place to go.

I didn't get the feel that you were engineering failure. That would be out of character for you in the posts you've made. Aside from that, I have thought those *exact* words.


-----

This just sounds like a mindfuck to me, not an actual attempt to make you question your slavery. You would do anything for him, and he would never make you do that. He is just using "but I might" as a mindfuck, not actually expecting you to be willing to do it. Just my perspective.

Yup, mindfuck. I've done it myself.


----

It may also be that he makes an informed choice to continue and risk damage. I know for many that is a no-no, but then once again, if you are giving up all control/limits, there is no magic rule book saying he cannot decide that damaging me is acceptable to him. Does it mean I want it, not particularly, but then I have a good imagination and so took all these things into account and anticipated some he may probably never decide to pull, though he has mentioned under what conditions he would employ some of them, and I do not have any reason to doubt he would keep his word on that.

Catalina

To me, this is the core of the experience.

 

[JMohegan]

I gotta say, I find this whole "No Limit's" thing to be a Really stupid idea. What ever happened to common sense?

"Common sense" says that if you are bound and alone with another person, then any proclamations you've made about what you will or won't do, want or don't want, etc., will carry only the weight that he or she chooses to give them.

No matter what the slave, submissive, bottom, or curious non-kinkster agreed to ahead of time, once the restraints are attached the bottom line is the same. The behavior of the Top/Dominant will be governed by: fear of the law, his or her personal code of ethics, the regard he or she has for the one bound, and the extent to which he or she values their relationship overall.

Personally I think that the most careless participants in the world of kink are those who assume that a declaration of limits or safeword will protect them from harm. Since it's the character of the Top/Dominant that really matters, I'd say your expression of outrage is misdirected, at best.

 

[JMohegan]

I do trust him. I have never had any cause to doubt his concern for my welfare.

It's a fairly new thing for me though, to be very aware that what is and is not acceptable behaviour on his part is not my decision any more. As Cat said, he can and will do things that I find very unpleasant or difficult at the time. There is no concept of fairness in our dynamic. At all times I exist for the sole function of serving him in everything I do. Unless I'm seriously unwell, that involves quite a lot of work on my part. I don't get to say when I've reached the extent of my tolerance to something or am physically and emotionally fatigued. 'Not tonight darling' has been officially and irretrievably expunged from my vocabulary.

I do trust him, but these things haven't really been tested yet. I can't know yet just how far he will consider it acceptable to push me. I'm very much at the start of this journey and having put my money where my mouth is and signed the contract, my life is now in his hands. Neither of us has any experience in TPE which means that Master is very much making it up as he goes along. I know there will be mistakes and I know it is likely that I'll bear the brunt of them.

So while I do trust him, there is still this apprehension. It's also about self doubt on my part as to whether I can be everything he expects of me. You can buy all the equipment and do all the training to climb a mountain but there's still no saying that you'll survive the trip. Anything that involves sustained risk and M/s is pretty risky in terms of BDSM play and the effects of TPE on an existing relationship. If this doesn't work out for us in the long term (and I have no reason to think that it won't) it will be very awkward and difficult to change our dynamic.

There is an overwhelming sense of 'all or nothing' when it comes to TPE. I do feel like it's a gamble. As I've staked everything on it, I have a very healthy fear of losing.

This is a great post! Heartfelt and eloquent.

If this is what you're feeling at the moment, then it doesn't seem to me that you are stuck in a "circular argument" at all.

 

[Homburg]

"Common sense" says that if you are bound and alone with another person, then any proclamations you've made about what you will or won't do, want or don't want, etc., will carry only the weight that he or she chooses to give them.

No matter what the slave, submissive, bottom, or curious non-kinkster agreed to ahead of time, once the restraints are attached the bottom line is the same. The behavior of the Top/Dominant will be governed by: fear of the law, his or her personal code of ethics, the regard he or she has for the one bound, and the extent to which he or she values their relationship overall.

Personally I think that the most careless participants in the world of kink are those who assume that a declaration of limits or safeword will protect them from harm. Since it's the character of the Top/Dominant that really matters, I'd say your expression of outrage is misdirected, at best.

Absolutely. 100% agreement from me on this one, JM. Limits and safewords are not a bad thing, but they are only worth the sense of honour and charity possessed by the Top.

 

[JMohegan]

i think these are good points that go to the basics of a relationship. well stated!

what i'd like to hear further is about their realization in a situation where B is subject to A, in some manner, but to a substantial degree.

for instance, if A directs things, how does A show 'trustworthiness', that isn't just what any friend of B might show?

second, is B expected to evaluate that trustworthiness.? obviously yes in the extreme cases: most B's won't go murder someone, and so a directive to do so would prove that A wasn't trustworthy, and cause B is leave.

but in the other cases, less extreme, if i may use an analogy, to say 'yes' [i.e. evaluate] would be like asking a child or teen to evaluate the parenting they're getting. a) they're not likely to be good judges, and b) it is arguably not their place to say, "i've decided your parenting leaves something to be desired, so i'm going to ignore your direction to say, come home before dark."

third, looking at B's side, i presume s/he is to show trust (A being worhty of it). again, what is B doing that she wouldn't with a friend, FR? B might, if she was leaving town, transfer a sum of money to FR, with the idea being that B's rent and bills get paid while B is out of town. obedience is part of the answer, obviously.

Hi, Pure. Thanks.

First - I'm talking about personal relationships in which life partnership is the goal. The answer to your question lies in a combination of time spent together, level of intimacy, opportunity to interact with family, friends, and work colleagues, etc. Part of my M.O. also involves a deliberate assignment of baby steps, leading to slighter larger steps, and so on. Trust is built each time an event is successful.

Second - I expect a partner to evaluate my trustworthiness on a continuing basis. Shutting down that process of evaluation is not something I have a desire to do. However, deciding that I am untrustworthy would mean the relationship is over, so the decision to obey a specific directive would be beside the point at that time.

Third - In addition to all of the usual ways in which established and committed mainstream couples demonstrate trust for one another, B allows A to push her preconceived personal boundaries or buttons relating to fear, pain, and endurance - trusting that A has correctly guessed that she'll make it through.

 

[JMohegan]

100% agreement from me on this one, JM.

A banner day! I'll make a note in my diary at once.

 

[Homburg]

A banner day! I'll make a note in my diary at once.

Ha! I probably should too

 

[Desdemona]

Fundamentally, we don't disagree

ugh mental spasm

 

[myinnerslut]

having been offline for the past several days, this is for all intents and purposes the first time ive seen this thread. that said, i didnt have time to read all the subsuquent posts right now so i will respond to the OP and hope im not too terribly off the mark of where the thread is now.

i am in a TPE. i am happily a slave, having given up my safeword and limits. even so, i still would not eat shit for two reasons, both of which fit perfectly well in the dynamic i live and embrace.

reason number1: i have two rules by which i live. thats it. no big list of things to do or tasks to accomplish. two rules, that emcompass everything else. the first is to please my Master. the second is to take care of his property. as i have found out once before these rules can at times be in direct contradiction. though i list them as the "first" and "second" rule, that does not mean that one carries more weight then each other and both can override the other in cetrtain situations.

if Master told me to eat shit, doing so would fulfill rule number one. he wants me to. he tells me as much. i do it, and hes pleased. simple, right? not so much. in doing that i would be putting myself at a health risk. purposfully doing something that has a high likelyhood of getting me ill is directly disobaying rule number two. and in this case, rule number two outweighs rule number one due to specific health concerns.

reason number 2 in giving myself to my Master, i promised him several things. namely, my heart, mindm body, and soul. in return, he promised to care for and look after me, never to purposfully put me in danger, and not to abuse my trust in him. in ordering me to do something that would be very likely detrimental to the care of my body and then enforcing its occurance, he would be mishandling that trust. there is a difference between beating somebody and putting them in a situation where they may well be hospitalized due to any number of specific health issues associated with the action of eating shit.

 

[Netzach]

I am saying this as someone who cannot be cavalier about her intestinal health. Also as someone who probably could not crap on another person if paid 80 grand to do it, I have enough issues in a public stall with anyone around. Shit shy to the nth.

Needle and blood play can lead to staph infection and you might lose a limb.

Suspension bondage might break your neck, or you might lose the use of a limb no matter how dang good your top is. Or you can die from harness-hang syndrome.

Breathplay, let's not even get started...

I realize there are some very real risks in brown. But the evidence of walking living healthy and really freaking perverted brown enthusiasts dining from a different ass every session makes me think the risk is....well, manageable to those who must manage it to get their jollies.

The brick wall of disgust is a valid one, and to me, that's really what people are dealing with. Yeah, there's danger, but I don't think it's significantly higher than in other forms of edgeplay.

I think "my top's kind of grossed out and so am I" is a perfectly valid reason not to go there.

 

[Desdemona]

I'm have to say

You can't minimize the health risks. They're real. There's an old saying among nurses. "You just can't kill some people". What the means is that some people barely react to things that make others very sick or very dead. During a long career as a critical care nurse, I watched alot of people die from e-coli (and other intestinal pathogen) sepsis. As a way to go, it sucks.

Just because there's alot of pervy folks wandering around who dine brown without apparent problems, it doesn't mean that this practice is any safer than other forms of edge play. I think that between the partners, health concerns are also valid reasons to not go there.

I'm done with this thread. People are gonna do what they're gonna do anyhow. And I know nothing I have to say about it makes any difference.

 

[Desdemona]

I have to say

How the hell did this go twice?

 

[Netzach]

You can't minimize the health risks. They're real. There's an old saying among nurses. "You just can't kill some people". What the means is that some people barely react to things that make others very sick or very dead. During a long career as a critical care nurse, I watched alot of people die from e-coli (and other intestinal pathogen) sepsis. As a way to go, it sucks.

Just because there's alot of pervy folks wandering around who dine brown without apparent problems, it doesn't mean that this practice is any safer than other forms of edge play. I think that between the partners, health concerns are also valid reasons to not go there.

I'm done with this thread. People are gonna do what they're gonna do anyhow. And I know nothing I have to say about it makes any difference.

I'm not minimizing them. I'm saying we accept a lot of other risks that involve unpleasant ways to go because the fetish involved is more ok.

 

[Bill3250]

M'Lady doesn't make me eat her feces, but after she has shit, I am allowed to bathe her anus with my tongue. When I finish I always thank her for the pleasure afforded me.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

I am saying this as someone who cannot be cavalier about her intestinal health. Also as someone who probably could not crap on another person if paid 80 grand to do it, I have enough issues in a public stall with anyone around. Shit shy to the nth.

Needle and blood play can lead to staph infection and you might lose a limb.

Suspension bondage might break your neck, or you might lose the use of a limb no matter how dang good your top is. Or you can die from harness-hang syndrome.

Breathplay, let's not even get started...

I realize there are some very real risks in brown. But the evidence of walking living healthy and really freaking perverted brown enthusiasts dining from a different ass every session makes me think the risk is....well, manageable to those who must manage it to get their jollies.

The brick wall of disgust is a valid one, and to me, that's really what people are dealing with. Yeah, there's danger, but I don't think it's significantly higher than in other forms of edgeplay.

I think "my top's kind of grossed out and so am I" is a perfectly valid reason not to go there.

Yeah. I agree with this. While the notion of scat grosses me out completely, I do remain aware that the risks involved aren't really higher than other stuff that we get up to fairly frequently. This reinforces the squick in my gut that says 'but he might have me do it one day.'

I have said further back, that neither of us has any interest in scat and that's not likely to change, it merely became a handy hypothetical for the purpose of discussing what 'no limits' truly means. On a more realistic level, I am fairly confident that foot worship is going to be introduced soon, specifically because I absolutely loathe it and he knows this. It will likely be a punishment and it's something that I actually had as a hard limit back when I was a sub with a say in the matter. It really does squick me that much. I will be obedient and he will be pleased but I will not enjoy the task on any level, except the knowledge that I'm serving.

I will never presume to know what will and will not be expected of me. If I ever did, Master would be swift to teach me a few object lessons I'm sure. I like that my position as his slave is a slightly precarious one and that I will be asked to engage in edgeplay that can never be considered 'safe' regardless of the SSC precautions taken by him in the interest of keeping his slave reasonably alive and reasonably sane. These are specifically the things that drew me to TPE and to want to relinquish control completely. I'm not going to cry 'no fair' because I risk actually getting what I signed up for.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I'm not minimizing them. I'm saying we accept a lot of other risks that involve unpleasant ways to go because the fetish involved is more ok.

It does amaze me when people jump up and down about one particular form of play (or whatever term they use), but neglect to attach any similar level to other risky forms of play...and usually assume those who defend something topical are obviously into it. There are risks with this and a multitude of other things we do in this lifestyle, even caning. On brown related risks, I know they exist, but are also said to be less with a regular partner who does not have a variety of health issues associated with the most common type infections involved...it also makes me wonder about the number of people (adult and children) who have been in abusive situations where it is reported they had been forced to eat their or another's crap, and yet come out of it without e-coli and other illnesses considered so easy to contract through such things. Not to mention ass to mouth play which is far more widespread than scat and similar practices and yet people usually feel is quite OK and without risk. If I allow myself to think of the risks involved with most things we do, including as you said Netzach, needle play, I would not ever be able to enjoy anything and be continually seeing everything as possible sign of infection or injury.

Catalina

 

[intothewoods]

I think "my top's kind of grossed out and so am I" is a perfectly valid reason not to go there.

Woot! Works for us.

 

[Homburg]

I am saying this as someone who cannot be cavalier about her intestinal health. Also as someone who probably could not crap on another person if paid 80 grand to do it, I have enough issues in a public stall with anyone around. Shit shy to the nth.

Needle and blood play can lead to staph infection and you might lose a limb.

Suspension bondage might break your neck, or you might lose the use of a limb no matter how dang good your top is. Or you can die from harness-hang syndrome.

Breathplay, let's not even get started...

I realize there are some very real risks in brown. But the evidence of walking living healthy and really freaking perverted brown enthusiasts dining from a different ass every session makes me think the risk is....well, manageable to those who must manage it to get their jollies.

The brick wall of disgust is a valid one, and to me, that's really what people are dealing with. Yeah, there's danger, but I don't think it's significantly higher than in other forms of edgeplay.

I think "my top's kind of grossed out and so am I" is a perfectly valid reason not to go there.

I would guess that my issue here is more of risk management than it is of acceptable risk. I can learn needleplay from a trained professional that deals with injections on a regular basis (such as a nurse, in my case), and thus learn to minimise chance of infection. I can learn floorplay and suspension from a well-respected and knowledgable rigger, as well as learn the human anatomy well, so as to minimise the chance of nerve compression or other issues. I can't really figure out a way to minimise exposure when dining brown. I can't quite wrap my brain around clean poo, so I'm not really sure how to minimise those risks.

Oh, and I avoid breathplay. No thanks. Can't really minimise the dangers from that either, as each body reacts differently, and even the same person will react differently to serious breathplay.

And I'm not trying to say that disgust is not a motivator. It is. I like to kiss that mouth, so I'd rather not get shit in it. That said, I still can't figure out how to minimise very real risks. Luckily, I am not interested, so it's not something I'm going to devote lots of time to. Still, I'm not ready to call hypocrisy on someone that is fine with needleplay or suspension, and not fine with scat. I see them as vastly different insofar as managing exposure.

 

[Netzach]

I would guess that my issue here is more of risk management than it is of acceptable risk. I can learn needleplay from a trained professional that deals with injections on a regular basis (such as a nurse, in my case), and thus learn to minimise chance of infection. I can learn floorplay and suspension from a well-respected and knowledgable rigger, as well as learn the human anatomy well, so as to minimise the chance of nerve compression or other issues. I can't really figure out a way to minimise exposure when dining brown. I can't quite wrap my brain around clean poo, so I'm not really sure how to minimise those risks.

Oh, and I avoid breathplay. No thanks. Can't really minimise the dangers from that either, as each body reacts differently, and even the same person will react differently to serious breathplay.

And I'm not trying to say that disgust is not a motivator. It is. I like to kiss that mouth, so I'd rather not get shit in it. That said, I still can't figure out how to minimise very real risks. Luckily, I am not interested, so it's not something I'm going to devote lots of time to. Still, I'm not ready to call hypocrisy on someone that is fine with needleplay or suspension, and not fine with scat. I see them as vastly different insofar as managing exposure.

An informed decision to disregard the real risk of major nerve compression damage even if your rigger is the God of Rope doesn't seem more respect-worthy than an informed decision to risk your life if your main fetish is ingestion. Or a little rimming, because microbes really aren't that big.