Feminism and BDSM...

[DeservingBitch]

I am not really able to reconcile my feminist leanings with my submissive desires.

I guess it depends on what your feminism is. I personally don't believe in feminism that polices and disciplines sexuality: ie, I don't belive in a 'feminist' way of fucking. Fucking is fucking is fucking.

So, to me, there's nothing really to 'reconcile' about being feminist and having submissive desires: feminist politics is not about enforcing one True Feminist Way of Fucking™, it is about challenging oppressive unequal social power relations. And what makes those unequal social power relations oppressive is that they are NOT consensual and serve to benefit only a very few to the detriment of most everybody else.

'Feminists' who claim that BDSM and D/s are inherently oppressive sexual practice are generally the same 'feminists' who see Lesbian Sex™ as the only acceptable 'feminist' sexuality -- of course, any penetrative sex cast you out of True Lesbian Sex™ and god forbid you bring any toys in bed with you. In case it's not clear, I call bullshit on this kind of 'feminism'.

 

[intothewoods]

I guess it depends on what your feminism is. I personally don't believe in feminism that polices and disciplines sexuality: ie, I don't belive in a 'feminist' way of fucking. Fucking is fucking is fucking.

So, to me, there's nothing really to 'reconcile' about being feminist and having submissive desires: feminist politics is not about enforcing one True Feminist Way of Fucking™, it is about challenging oppressive unequal social power relations. And what makes those unequal social power relations oppressive is that they are NOT consensual and serve to benefit only a very few to the detriment of most everybody else.

'Feminists' who claim that BDSM and D/s are inherently oppressive sexual practice are generally the same 'feminists' who see Lesbian Sex™ as the only acceptable 'feminist' sexuality -- of course, any penetrative sex cast you out of True Lesbian Sex™ and god forbid you bring any toys in bed with you. In case it's not clear, I call bullshit on this kind of 'feminism'.

I don't mean to blather on and on here, but I'm so glad you mentioned this, DB. I saw porn star/producer Nina Hartley speak - well, okay, give a course on cocksucking - and I was fascinated by her discussion of feminists who thought any sort of penetration was anti-feminist. And Nina Hartley basically said, I'm sorry, I need a cock - bio or non-bio to get off! Holding hands ain't gonna do it.

 

[catalina_francisco]

OK, is ™ the new "..."? And yes, I know CM started it but it completely makes no sense to me and irritates me almost as much as those bad spelling journalists and authors, and to the point I lose the point of the post because I am so busy trying to work out why anyone wants to trademark (or thinks it possible) a word or phrase in a forum, and only paying attention to those ™ words. Nothing personal (I know several people are using it), just decided I had to say something before it drives me completely crazy. Most likely I am alone in finding it crazy making.

Catalina

 

[DeservingBitch]

I don't mean to blather on and on here, but I'm so glad you mentioned this, DB. I saw porn star/producer Nina Hartley speak - well, okay, give a course on cocksucking - and I was fascinated by her discussion of feminists who thought any sort of penetration was anti-feminist. And Nina Hartley basically said, I'm sorry, I need a cock - bio or non-bio to get off! Holding hands ain't gonna do it.

Yeah - those are the same 'feminists' who claim that femme/butch dynamics reproduce the status quo because they mimic heteronormative gender roles, and the same who claim that my having a woman sucking on my strapon cock makes me a collaborator to Teh Patriarchy. Yeah right. Makes about as much sense as the dudes who are afraid of 'turning gay' because their girl finger their asses.

I always feel sad for those self-proclaimed True Feminists: they must have the most boring sex ever.

 

[alexanna]

I don't really get your comment about feminity as a powerful and destructive force. Sounds colorful, but what does that really mean?

That's sort of my point, we don't really know. Traditionally feminine has been equated with what is nurturing and life giving. It can also be associated with mercy where masculine is often associated with justice. Certainly the feminine has been associated with things chaotic and upredicable, needing to be contained and governed. Why are women accused of being irrational, unconstant, always changing their minds? Why were hurricane's originally always named women's names?

My political and social beliefs just don't have much to do with what I do in my bedroom. I guess in this instance, my feeling is the personal is not the political, except to the extent that I don't want the government legislating my bedroom activities.

I'm not really able to compartmentalize myself that way, never have been. My political, philosophical, social, religious beliefs and attitudes color everything I do all the time; in the bedroom and out.

 

[DeservingBitch]

OK, is ™ the new "..."? And yes, I know CM started it but it completely makes no sense to me and irritates me almost as much as those bad spelling journalists and authors, and to the point I lose the point of the post because I am so busy trying to work out why anyone wants to trademark (or thinks it possible) a word or phrase in a forum, and only paying attention to those ™ words. Nothing personal (I know several people are using it), just decided I had to say something before it drives me completely crazy. Most likely I am alone in finding it crazy making.

Catalina

Oh - it's something I picked up on other forums. Mostly used as a form of sarcasm, as in Real True Feminist™. Used in this sense, it is different than using the quotation mark. But it can also be done without by capitalizing every word of the expression -- almost to the same effect.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Unfortunately, the personal is political, in these times more than ever. We no longer enjoy the right to privacy for a start, though there is an illusion many like to believe is real, that we do. And most of the imtrusion of political into our personal lives takes place long before the bedroom door is even opened.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

Oh - it's something I picked up on other forums. Mostly used as a form of sarcasm, as in Real True Feminist™. Used in this sense, it is different than using the quotation mark. But it can also be done without by capitalizing every word of the expression -- almost to the same effect.

The internet has a lot to answer for.

Catalina

 

[alexanna]

I guess it depends on what your feminism is. I personally don't believe in feminism that polices and disciplines sexuality: ie, I don't belive in a 'feminist' way of fucking. Fucking is fucking is fucking.

So, to me, there's nothing really to 'reconcile' about being feminist and having submissive desires: feminist politics is not about enforcing one True Feminist Way of Fucking™, it is about challenging oppressive unequal social power relations. And what makes those unequal social power relations oppressive is that they are NOT consensual and serve to benefit only a very few to the detriment of most everybody else.

'Feminists' who claim that BDSM and D/s are inherently oppressive sexual practice are generally the same 'feminists' who see Lesbian Sex™ as the only acceptable 'feminist' sexuality -- of course, any penetrative sex cast you out of True Lesbian Sex™ and god forbid you bring any toys in bed with you. In case it's not clear, I call bullshit on this kind of 'feminism'.

I've never equated feminism with politics but thought of the politics as one aspect of it. I guess I come from a more "women's studies" lets just think about who we are and why point of view.

The idea of fucking without penetration because I'm a feminist is rediculous to me. As a feminist I am pro feminine and part of being feminine is being penetrated. The last thing I want to do as a feminist is give up being feminine, feminine in all its manifestations, one of which is receiving penetration.

 

[DeservingBitch]

Unfortunately, the personal is political, in these times more than ever. We no longer enjoy the right to privacy for a start, though there is an illusion many like to believe is real, that we do. And most of the imtrusion of political into our personal lives takes place long before the bedroom door is even opened.

Catalina

Agree.

I do believe that my sexual desires and preferences are very much influenced by the world around me, and that includes current unequal power relations. Feminism can help me in understanding those desires, can help me in dealing with the discomfort I feel toward some of those desires, can provide me with some guidelines to act on those desires in an ethical and respectful way, but feminism isn't there to police or discipline those desires. At least not the feminism I believe in and find productive.

Shaming women for their sexuality and desires is something that patriarchal societies have been doing very successfully for quite a while. There's no need for feminism to join in the shaming. A good rule of thomb in my opinion: when 'feminists' and the autocratic religious right are basically saying the same thing (for instance, on the 'evil' of porn, sex work, or bdsm), it's not feminism.

 

[Homburg]

I am not really able to reconcile my feminist leanings with my submissive desires. I like Cat's explanation but I'm still somewhat uncomfortable and probably always will be. How can I read De Beauvoir one minute and get spanked the next and not feel a little weird? When we were first married my husband used to call me "his little feminist" all the time. It infuriated and aroused me at the same time. Still can when he says it when I am trying to have a serious discussion.

I was thinking about this today while driving. Of course, being male, it is likely that I'm wrong about it D) but I figured I'd advance the idea anyway.

Examine, for a moment, rape fantasy, especially for those who have been raped or similarly abused. Why would someone who had been through the horror of rape have a desire to experience a fantasy version of such a traumatic event? One theory that I've read is that the fantasy remains under control of the bottom, and thus rescripts the victimisation with the former victim now in control of the scene. The victim retakes the power by acting out the rape fantasy with the control of a safeword, and with a trusted partner.

Examine this concept with oppression of females throughout the millennia, and how voluntarily accepting oppression in microcosm with the power of a safeword in place, and with a trusted partner, can recript that oppression with the oppressed now in control of the scene. While the prima faciae power relationship has the Top as the oppressor, the oppressed holds the power and merely lends it to the oppressor.

Just an idea, and one that percolated as I was being viciously oppressed by domineering, non-safeword-heeding traffic.

 

[DeservingBitch]

I've never equated feminism with politics but thought of the politics as one aspect of it. I guess I come from a more "women's studies" lets just think about who we are and why point of view.

The idea of fucking without penetration because I'm a feminist is rediculous to me. As a feminist I am pro feminine and part of being feminine is being penetrated. The last thing I want to do as a feminist is give up being feminine, feminine in all its manifestations, one of which is receiving penetration.

I honestly have no idea what feminism is if it's not politics. Who we are and why we are that way IS about politics. We exist in society. Society (as it currently exists) is made of power relations. Power relations is politics.

As for being feminine being (partly) about being penetrated, I beg to differ. It is of course true that femininity has generally been associated with being penetrated, being passive, being acted upon, etc. But there's nothing inherently feminine in being penetrated, nor is being feminine inherently about being penetrated.

I for one am VERY femme in my gender performance, and I much rather being the one penetrating than the one being penetrated.

 

[DeservingBitch]

Examine this concept with oppression of females throughout the millennia, and how voluntarily accepting oppression in microcosm with the power of a safeword in place, and with a trusted partner, can recript that oppression with the oppressed now in control of the scene. While the prima faciae power relationship has the Top as the oppressor, the oppressed holds the power and merely lends it to the oppressor.

Yep. BDSM to me is very much a masquerade of society's power relations. BDSM re-appropriate those power relations, the popular and most common themes around which they are played (think about the bad cop play, the teacher/student play, daddy/little girl or son play, boss/employee play, etc. -- those draw on very common experiences of power), and makes it fun, dirty, wet, and pleasure-full. Basically, take something oppressive, subvert it, and make it fun.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Agree.

I do believe that my sexual desires and preferences are very much influenced by the world around me, and that includes current unequal power relations. Feminism can help me in understanding those desires, can help me in dealing with the discomfort I feel toward some of those desires, can provide me with some guidelines to act on those desires in an ethical and respectful way, but feminism isn't there to police or discipline those desires. At least not the feminism I believe in and find productive.

Shaming women for their sexuality and desires is something that patriarchal societies have been doing very successfully for quite a while. There's no need for feminism to join in the shaming. A good rule of thomb in my opinion: when 'feminists' and the autocratic religious right are basically saying the same thing (for instance, on the 'evil' of porn, sex work, or bdsm), it's not feminism.

You have no argument from me...I aced my year in Feminisn at Uni by doing my major paper on female sex workers actually having a right to do what they do from a feminisit stand poijt, and in fact placing them in the powerful position as opposed to the popular image it has of seeing them as oppressed and needing rescue... presented to a feminist who works in various areas around the world and until then felt very strongly that porn and the sex industry were enemies of women and feminism. LOL, having a crush on her did make it extra fun to actually argue my point so successfully as to have her tell me later she had at last found a reason to revise her long held views at least a little and look at it from an angle she never had considered legitimate before my paper.

Catalina

 

[DeservingBitch]

You have no argument from me...I aced my year in Feminisn at Uni by doing my major paper on female sex workers actually having a right to do what they do from a feminisit stand poijt, and in fact placing them in the powerful position as opposed to the popular image it has of seeing them as oppressed and needing rescue... presented to a feminist who works in various areas around the world and until then felt very strongly that porn and the sex industry were enemies of women and feminism. LOL, having a crush on her did make it extra fun to actually argue my point so successfully as to have her tell me later she had at last found a reason to revise her long held views at least a little and look at it from an angle she never had considered legitimate before my paper.

Catalina

Hehe. We should exchange papers: I've done quite a bit of work on feminism, sexuality, and sex work.

 

[alexanna]

As for being feminine being (partly) about being penetrated, I beg to differ. It is of course true that femininity has generally been associated with being penetrated, being passive, being acted upon, etc. But there's nothing inherently feminine in being penetrated, nor is being feminine inherently about being penetrated.

Do you feel that being penetrated and receiving is somehow less or more than penetration? Why is it important that being penetrated NOT be feminine?

What is feminine and what is masculine then?

 

[catalina_francisco]

Hehe. We should exchange papers: I've done quite a bit of work on feminism, sexuality, and sex work.

It's definately an interesting area, and one I have always supported but have even more reason to these days.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

Do you feel that being penetrated and receiving is somehow less or more than penetration? Why is it important that being penetrated NOT be feminine?

What is feminine and what is masculine then?

Call me strange, (wouldn't be the first time someone has) but I have always challenged the view that it is pure penetration in the first place. Can't it be argued that a male supposedly penetrating a woman is actually being enveloped, and for the very good, devoured and/or held in place until the woman is ready to release him? For me it has always been a matter of how you think and view it from a physical reality position...it is not always the male who makes the decision that is where his appendage is going.

Catalina

 

[BiBunny]

Call me strange, (wouldn't be the first time someone has) but I have always challenged the view that it is pure penetration in the first place. Can't it be argued that a male supposedly penetrating a woman is actually being enveloped, and for the very good, devoured and/or held in place until the woman is ready to release him? For me it has always been a matter of how you think and view it from a physical reality position...it is not always the male who makes the decision that is where his appendage is going.

Catalina

That's actually really interesting and gives me something to think about....

Now, see, if Cat had come before Freud, we wouldn't even be having these kinds of discussions.

 

[alexanna]

Call me strange, (wouldn't be the first time someone has) but I have always challenged the view that it is pure penetration in the first place. Can't it be argued that a male supposedly penetrating a woman is actually being enveloped, and for the very good, devoured and/or held in place until the woman is ready to release him? For me it has always been a matter of how you think and view it from a physical reality position...it is not always the male who makes the decision that is where his appendage is going.

Catalina

Absolutely and most definitely! Devouring....mmmmm.

Devouring is active and powerful and yet very different from penetrating, slashing, poking. Love it.

 

[catalina_francisco]

That's actually really interesting and gives me something to think about....

Now, see, if Cat had come before Freud, we wouldn't even be having these kinds of discussions.

LOL, I like to think outside the box....and ummm, there have been a couple of men along the way who though they were happy, hadn't exacty planned to be taken like they were...especially the sweet young thing who was done on my front doormat just for showing up and knocking when he was so nervous...well and because he certainly wasn't the scrawny little kid he had been the last time I had seen him before his sister brought him around to offer to me for stress relief. He relieved my stress very nicely thank you.....for many months

Catalina

 

[DeservingBitch]

Do you feel that being penetrated and receiving is somehow less or more than penetration? Why is it important that being penetrated NOT be feminine?

*I* don't associate being penetrated and penetrating to a hierarchy, ie, one being better than the other. My sexual preferences goes to doing the penetrating, but this doesn't make penetrating inherently 'better'.

Also, and in line with what Cat has suggested, the notion that the male is 'penetrating' and therefore being the 'active' one while the female is being 'penetrated' and therefore the 'passive' one is very much influenced by a masculinist and heteronormative perspective. One could very much see the vagina as enveloping, devouring, swallowing the phallus rather than the phallus penetrating the vagina. Anyone who's fisted a woman can see how the former is at least as much true as the later. The fact that we tend to see it as the later has a lot to do with our current masculinist culture which tend to privilege what is associated with being 'masculine' and what is 'masculine' with being active.

What is feminine and what is masculine then?

There's nothing inherently or 'naturally' feminine or masculine. What we see as 'feminine' and 'masculine' are nothing but social constructs. Which of course doesn't mean that they are any less 'real' then if they were 'natural'. But it does mean that since they are human made, they can be changed, transformed, or get rid off through social changes.

 

[alexanna]

The sperm is also consumed and becomes a part of the egg in reproduction. It penetrates but is then absorbed and destroyed.

 

[alexanna]

Also, and in line with what Cat has suggested, the notion that the male is 'penetrating' and therefore being the 'active' one while the female is being 'penetrated' and therefore the 'passive' one is very much influenced by a masculinist and heteronormative perspective. One could very much see the vagina as enveloping, devouring, swallowing the phallus rather than the phallus penetrating the vagina. Anyone who's fisted a woman can see how the former is at least as much true as the later. The fact that we tend to see it as the later has a lot to do with our current masculinist culture which tend to privilege what is associated with being 'masculine' and what is 'masculine' with being active.

I rather like both analogies and see them both as feminine.

 

[Homburg]

Yep. BDSM to me is very much a masquerade of society's power relations. BDSM re-appropriate those power relations, the popular and most common themes around which they are played (think about the bad cop play, the teacher/student play, daddy/little girl or son play, boss/employee play, etc. -- those draw on very common experiences of power), and makes it fun, dirty, wet, and pleasure-full. Basically, take something oppressive, subvert it, and make it fun.

Glad to see that I wasn't totally off base there.

I for one am VERY femme in my gender performance, and I much rather being the one penetrating than the one being penetrated.

Do you feel that being penetrated and receiving is somehow less or more than penetration? Why is it important that being penetrated NOT be feminine?

I have to agree with DB. I don't see it as inherently masculine or feminine. Men receive in homosexual relationships, as well as men that enjoy prostrate stimulation, and, for that matter, in giving oral pleasure (to either gender). I see it as a role that is frequently masculine, simply because evolution has provided us with plumbing that supports the activity, but I know plenty of men that like to receive.

I do, however, hold certain power associations in regards to penetration and receiving. Just my personal bias though, and I can easily see situations and attitudes controverting that. The enveloping concept being one of them.