Feminism and BDSM...

[Homburg]

This would explain why raising my daughters is so hard for me. Thank you for the clarity.

Any time.

---------------

I think it's important to be a conscious parent. I think you're kidding yourself if you don't think your reactions have an impact on your youngest's love for trains. And how his brother reacted, or his friends, or all of the above. Of course, let the kid be a kid - and I would never suggest you say, well, you've had an hour of boy play today, now how about an hour of girl play to balance it out?

My reactions? I shrugged and let him do it. His brother's reaction? "Hey, those are mine!" Yeah, little man got his gender role reinforced by positive reactions to gender stereotypes on my part and his older brother's.

I see your pretension, and I raise you that it's pretentiously anti-intellectual to diss using your brain. Must you analyze your kids' every move to be a good parent? No, of course not. Is there anything wrong with thinking about these issues, and thinking about parenting choices? Nope. I don't sit around on pins and needles reading parenting theory all day, like some obsessed yuppie parents out there, but thinking about your parenting choices isn't a bad thing, actually.

ROFL!! Anti-intellectual? Not using my brain? That's rich! I overanalyse shit constantly, ITW, and you have seen enough of my posts to realise that. I just choose to not obssess over this detail because return on investment is so very fucking low. If the kid is going to be macho or queer, nothing I do will change that. All I can do is fuck him up with my input, and that includes boggling him and overcomplicating his life with over-abundance of choices in some vague attempt to balance things.

And there is one major, incredibly huge core difference betwixt us that greatly informs this decision on my part.

Me - four kids
You - one kid

Not disrespecting you for the number of kids you have, but, trust me, you have LOADS more processor cycles to examine such things in your parenting because you have one entity to parent.

Again, the difference is being conscious of such marketing, and teaching your kids to be too. I'm fairly anti-homeschooling, but I think a lot about where my kid will go to school, and I do turn off the tv. Marketing is more sophisticated these days, and tv has changed since we were kids, and certainly since when our parents were kids. But I don't treat it like the bogeyman either. Technology, tv, etc., is all a part of our lives. I just make good choices.

I'm conscious. I just don't consider it to be important enough to worry about. There's a lot more out there that occupies my downtime insofar as parental introspection is concerned.

Dude, I am not a gender neutral parent. What the hell is that. I just don't bury my head in the sand and pretend there are eight million different influences on my child. I don't allow toy guns in my house, and I would never buy a freaking bratz doll. I also would never dream of emasculating my son - I don't even know how I could - he's 3 and the boy is here. He's a little person. Construction toys are awesome, and when he goes whole hog into that, I watch and learn. When he makes me coffee and bakes me cakes, I make the same fuss.

Look, I really detest the oh heaven forbid too much thinking kneejerk reaction so common these days, so forgive me if I'm testy. Thinking is good. It's what me and my people do best. Because I think and make choices about things like toy color just the same as I think and make choices about what I'm cooking this week doesn't mean I say, well, sweet pea, here's a new pink dress - don't ever forget that boys can also wear pink dresses, my darling little pumpkin.

Where did you get the impression that I was calling you a gender-neutral parent? I discussed people I knew that were gender-neutral parents. I was discussing the concept, not your choices.

As to the kneejerk reaction, please, it is an entirely studied reaction on my part, and a response to the progressive dissolution of childhood into increasingly bland, risk-averse pablum that produces dull little cowards on one hand, and absolute rebellious terrors on the other. No thanks. My kids are good, and when they decide to do something naughty they do it in a smart and considered manner, I am more likely to congratulate them on ingenuity than I am to just yell at them. After that is done, they catch whatever hell they deserve and we move on.

I think about all kinds of things when I parent, but I focus on the big shit, the rocks in the jar, not the sand or water. So don't give me guff about not thinking when all I am saying is this particular worry is one that I find immaterial. The kids will choose their gender orientation on their own, and all my input is likely to do is fuck it up.

 

[intothewoods]

Only kids are way too obsessed over - I can't wait to get knocked up again.

I guess I just really don't like being lumped in with the parents who obsess over their' baby's poo. I have never once kept a baby poo log.

And the thing is, I actually consider gender really interesting, and so it is something I think about. If it makes you feel better, I don't care about germs, and if he does some sort of vaguely dangerous activity after I've already warned him about it, oh well when the injury occurs. Next time listen.

Some issues bring out your desire to analyze, Homburg, and some don't. Let's not discuss your whole - D or R - who has two thumbs and doesn't care - Homburg - voting record.

 

[alexanna]

Dude, I am not a gender neutral parent. What the hell is that. I just don't bury my head in the sand and pretend there are eight million different influences on my child. I don't allow toy guns in my house, and I would never buy a freaking bratz doll. I also would never dream of emasculating my son - I don't even know how I could - he's 3 and the boy is here. He's a little person. Construction toys are awesome, and when he goes whole hog into that, I watch and learn. When he makes me coffee and bakes me cakes, I make the same fuss.

Look, I really detest the oh heaven forbid too much thinking kneejerk reaction so common these days, so forgive me if I'm testy. Thinking is good. It's what me and my people do best. Because I think and make choices about things like toy color just the same as I think and make choices about what I'm cooking this week doesn't mean I say, well, sweet pea, here's a new pink dress - don't ever forget that boys can also wear pink dresses, my darling little pumpkin.

When my son was 3 I thought I could keep a lot of things away from him I have since given up on. He goes to a very tiny progressive school, basically home school on steroids. We don't watch commercial television, just PBS and DVD's in our house. It doesn't matter.

He still came home pretending to play Halo a couple months ago because his best friend's older brother has it on XBox and the little guys think it is the coolest. I'm also real enough to know that his friend's mom isn't going to be able to stop them from watching the cool older brother 24/7. I was highly disturbed but I cannot see disallowing him from seeing his best buddy and spending the night. Soooo we gave in and despite wanting to wait a few years we bought a video game console (Wii) so our house would be more attractive and he wouldn't always be begging to go somewhere else.

We also didn't buy toy guns until he started saving up his allowance for them. It made no difference. He made them out of legos, used bananas, his hand and anything else which remotely resembles a gun. I have found the best defense against guns to be swords and light sabers (just for your future reference).

Anyway I'm getting off topic.

I do agree its important to analyze and think about how we're raising our kids and I also get annoyed when I'm told I'm thinking too much about something. Its the way I deal with things and I do think that thoughtful reflection can lead to big change. Not analyzing and discussing makes us lazy and not apt to recognize where we have room for improvement.

 

[alexanna]

Getting back to the fact that my uterus and breasts make me inherently unequal what, if anything, does this have to do with BDSM?

If my unequal biology pisses me off so much vis a vis men why do I like being further subjugated by them in the bedroom?

This is honestly a pretty tough question for me.

Partially I think I just like the overt recognition of the fact that my biology does indeed mean I am physically weaker and carry the burden of child bearing on top of that. All the societal constructs that make me "equal" could be removed at any time (see Handmaid's Tale). What am I without western society to protect me? A slave.

One of my weird fantasies is to move to a country like Saudi Arabia with my husband and be stripped of my rights; to see how much control I could garner with only my wits.

 

[catalina_francisco]

One of my weird fantasies is to move to a country like Saudi Arabia with my husband and be stripped of my rights; to see how much control I could garner with only my wits.

Based on RL knowledge of living in Saudi Arabia through F's posting there for several months, I can tell you your wits would not bring you any control but could land you, and possibly your husband in some very unpleasant and possibly physically damaging positions (perhaps even life threatening if you were stupid enough to think you could get away with anything) which would not be anything remotely connected to what you might fantsise about enjoying as a reality.

Catalina

 

[ecstaticsub]

Homburg elluded to the elephant in the room which is that the females have the children. Yes we can decide when to have them or not to have them at all but if they are going to be had we are the ones who have to do it.

I have squeezed out four and am recovering from a hysterectomy and A&P repair right now. The last 12 months have been hell simply because I am the woman in the relationship.

It was a very difficult decision to have my 3rd child. I wasn't sure I needed more than 2. My husband really really wanted more. It took him 2 years to convince me to have another one. Number 4 was unplanned (I am generally not fertile without help) and I was extremely depressed throughout that pregnancy.

I remember when I read "The Second Sex" by De Beauvoir I cried my eyes out as she explained the bondage motherhood places women in. Motherhood is all the wonderful things I was taught at church but there is a large price. Beyond just pregnancy and breastfeeding there is a bonding that occurs between a mother and child that does make it hard for her not to be the primary care giver and I don't think its healthy for the child for her not to be. From day one my babies respond to my voice and my smell. They WANT me more than anyone else right out of the gate. Its a nice ego boost but there are days, sometimes weeks where it feels more like shackles rather than love.

The question I struggle with is does society treat women who choose to have children like equals in the sense that they make no accomodation for any special needs or do we need to be made part of the ADA and given accomodation? In a society where men and women are treated as equals motherhood almost feels like a disability.

I really do feel that the burden of child bearing makes men and women inherently unequal. There are things I experience that my husband never will. Some good and some not. Most men I know are glad someone else can have their babies.

There is so much I agree to and can relate to in your comments. I love my children dearly but sometimes being a mom can be so difficult. Especially when they were babies. I went from working full-time for 8 years in a very stressful demanding career which I loved (and spent 6 years in school plus a post-graduate residency in order to get to that level) to being a full-time stay-at-home mom (and then my husband deployed for 9 months out of the first yr of her life..) I wish you well on your recovery from surgery, I had the same surgery 5 yrs ago.


For most of my life I didn't want children. But I did change my mind when I was 30. (Bibunny and anyone else who says they will never change their mind--I never ever thought I would either) Then I had difficulty getting pregnant. I never wanted to be a stay at home mom either. I decided I needed to do it for my children. As military kids they needed some stability. After 3 yrs I did go back to work part-time. I needed it more for my mental health than for the money.

Some times I feel guilty for not working full-time. There is a great shortage of professionals in my field. But I am doing a job at home that only I can do. My middle school children need me now even more than when they were younger.

My career has suffered a great deal because I have chosed to stay at home. But to be honest it would have suffered just as much simply because of my husband's career and having to move every 2-3 years.

The situation is not perfect, but my children are incredible human beings and I know I have made the right choices.

 

[Homburg]

Only kids are way too obsessed over - I can't wait to get knocked up again.

I guess I just really don't like being lumped in with the parents who obsess over their' baby's poo. I have never once kept a baby poo log.

I did not lump you in with anyone, darlin. You got a little sensive and thought that, and I'm sorry if I gave that impression. You know I you too much to treat you roughly. Well, unless it it negotiated for properly....

And the thing is, I actually consider gender really interesting, and so it is something I think about. If it makes you feel better, I don't care about germs, and if he does some sort of vaguely dangerous activity after I've already warned him about it, oh well when the injury occurs. Next time listen.

See, now that makes sense. If the topic is of interest to you it follows that you would think about it. Glad to hear that you don't mind your kid getting sick or injured though. That's a plus.

Some issues bring out your desire to analyze, Homburg, and some don't. Let's not discuss your whole - D or R - who has two thumbs and doesn't care - Homburg - voting record.

My politics still bothers you, doesn't it?

------------------------------

When my son was 3 I thought I could keep a lot of things away from him I have since given up on. He goes to a very tiny progressive school, basically home school on steroids. We don't watch commercial television, just PBS and DVD's in our house. It doesn't matter.

He still came home pretending to play Halo a couple months ago because his best friend's older brother has it on XBox and the little guys think it is the coolest. I'm also real enough to know that his friend's mom isn't going to be able to stop them from watching the cool older brother 24/7. I was highly disturbed but I cannot see disallowing him from seeing his best buddy and spending the night. Soooo we gave in and despite wanting to wait a few years we bought a video game console (Wii) so our house would be more attractive and he wouldn't always be begging to go somewhere else.

We also didn't buy toy guns until he started saving up his allowance for them. It made no difference. He made them out of legos, used bananas, his hand and anything else which remotely resembles a gun. I have found the best defense against guns to be swords and light sabers (just for your future reference).

*shrug* I was an army brat. Guns were an inescapable fact of life as dad used one as part of his job. My parents just let it happen, and I was trained how to handle them safely. I frequently annoyed my friends with safe gun and knife handling comments

Anyway I'm getting off topic.

I do agree its important to analyze and think about how we're raising our kids and I also get annoyed when I'm told I'm thinking too much about something. Its the way I deal with things and I do think that thoughtful reflection can lead to big change. Not analyzing and discussing makes us lazy and not apt to recognize where we have room for improvement.

Meh. No reason to get testy over it. It's a matter of priorities. I was accused of being anti-intellectual. Was I being anti-intellectual? No, I was saying that overanalysation was pointless here due to return on investment, not pointless in general. In my hierarchy of needs, worry over gender neutrality is just not worthwhile until something comes up that demands it be paid attention to.

 

[alexanna]

Based on RL knowledge of living in Saudi Arabia through F's posting there for several months, I can tell you your wits would not bring you any control but could land you, and possibly your husband in some very unpleasant and possibly physically damaging positions (perhaps even life threatening if you were stupid enough to think you could get away with anything) which would not be anything remotely connected to what you might fantsise about enjoying as a reality.

Catalina

No worries Cat. This is strictly one of those fun to think about, would never do fantasies. We would have no reason to do so as neither of us are from there or in an industry where we would need to move there for work. I do enjoy reading about the area however, especially with regard to women's issues. The feminist in me gets outraged and the sub gets aroused which the feminist finds very disturbing.

The most natural online Dom I ever had was a Saudi (I was not aware until 3 months in) and had never heard of BDSM nor did he take any interest when I broached the subject. Interacting with him felt very different than interacting with men from western societies. I was so second class we didn't even discuss how second class I was. The relationship actually became rather untennable after I found out he was Saudi because I couldn't stop picking fights with him over his culture's treatment of women.

 

[intothewoods]

I did not lump you in with anyone, darlin. You got a little sensive and thought that, and I'm sorry if I gave that impression. You know I you too much to treat you roughly. Well, unless it it negotiated for properly....



See, now that makes sense. If the topic is of interest to you it follows that you would think about it. Glad to hear that you don't mind your kid getting sick or injured though. That's a plus.



My politics still bothers you, doesn't it?

YES.

Anyway, I don't know - expectations of me based on gender growing up - from kids, the town I grew up in, school, even my parents - really affected me. I don't shove it down my kid's throat, but I'm aware of it and I try to let him really be him, at the same time that I instill values important to me, and enforce the rules of the house.

 

[intothewoods]

When my son was 3 I thought I could keep a lot of things away from him I have since given up on. He goes to a very tiny progressive school, basically home school on steroids. We don't watch commercial television, just PBS and DVD's in our house. It doesn't matter.

He still came home pretending to play Halo a couple months ago because his best friend's older brother has it on XBox and the little guys think it is the coolest. I'm also real enough to know that his friend's mom isn't going to be able to stop them from watching the cool older brother 24/7. I was highly disturbed but I cannot see disallowing him from seeing his best buddy and spending the night. Soooo we gave in and despite wanting to wait a few years we bought a video game console (Wii) so our house would be more attractive and he wouldn't always be begging to go somewhere else.

We also didn't buy toy guns until he started saving up his allowance for them. It made no difference. He made them out of legos, used bananas, his hand and anything else which remotely resembles a gun. I have found the best defense against guns to be swords and light sabers (just for your future reference).

I don't know, my parents seemed to do well at enforcing their rules, and I guess I plan on doing the same. We've already had some experience with pretend shooting, and we talked about it and I press him to think about it what it means to shoot at something. This is another topic diversion, but I'm not per se against all play like that - video games at some point, etc. There just needs to be rules and limits. And I give two shits if he's saved his allowance for a gun. No gun toys in my house. The end. Just because he's exposed to it at someone else's house doesn't mean I change my rules.

Btw, there's a reason I don't want to have 4, Homburg! I think two would be just manageable, though mister man does occasionally make disturbing comments about 3 or 4!

 

[alexanna]

*shrug* I was an army brat. Guns were an inescapable fact of life as dad used one as part of his job. My parents just let it happen, and I was trained how to handle them safely. I frequently annoyed my friends with safe gun and knife handling comments

I was raised around guns. They don't really bother me. They do bother my husband who is from a country where violence with guns is a lot more prevalant and if you happen to have a gun and are held up you are more likely to be shot, not less, just because it escaltes the situation. My father in law has been burgled or held up at gun point at least once a year during the 10 years I have been married.

The point for us is moot though as my son obviously loves them and is fascinated by them so we are going down the path of gun safety rather than a total ban. I would much rather him grow up hunting with his dad, grandfather and uncle than be secretly fixated and satisfy his curiosity elsewhere. Also I have no control over whether there are guns in the homes of his friends so it is important he understand exactly what they can do if used improperly. If he has no experience with them I'm not sure how he would understand.

 

[catalina_francisco]

No worries Cat. This is strictly one of those fun to think about, would never do fantasies. We would have no reason to do so as neither of us are from there or in an industry where we would need to move there for work. I do enjoy reading about the area however, especially with regard to women's issues. The feminist in me gets outraged and the sub gets aroused which the feminist finds very disturbing.

The most natural online Dom I ever had was a Saudi (I was not aware until 3 months in) and had never heard of BDSM nor did he take any interest when I broached the subject. Interacting with him felt very different than interacting with men from western societies. I was so second class we didn't even discuss how second class I was. The relationship actually became rather untennable after I found out he was Saudi because I couldn't stop picking fights with him over his culture's treatment of women.

Can't blame the man for being Saudi...and must have been confusing for him you liked the way he treated you until you found out his nationality. That is where it becomes more tricky in that I don't think you can welcome it one day and think it OK, and then based on race, reject it and use it as a political, social and personal nit picking stance the next. Nor can you hold one person responsible for centuries of tradition, custom and culture of their country. LOL, F found he had to ask his Saudi colleagues why the heck there were tons of lingerie shops and boutiques selling mini skirts and quite provocative women's clothing given the state of the law and dress code. They laughed and said, 'You think they're naked under those burka's'? He didn't, but he was just astounded at the contradictions.

They have a lot of strange customs that don't even apply to women....like the 70 something storey building which is beautiful and a real showpiece, but at night is only lit as far as the 40th floor....that is because it is against the law to live above 40 storey's, so by not lighting or using it, it doesn't exist. You also cannot get a visa to go there if you do not have a religion, but you can only have one of 3...Catholic, Muslim, or Jewish...but even if you are Catholic, you are not permitted to wear or be seen to have a cross or bible, nor can you pray publicly or speak about praying, nor can you discuss your religion with anyone else or practice it as that will be seen as trying to convert others. The list goes on of strange happenings and beliefs and customs, and yes, women were very much an almost invisible and very controlled part of the society, even in McDonalds.

Catalina

 

[Homburg]

Btw, there's a reason I don't want to have 4, Homburg! I think two would be just manageable, though mister man does occasionally make disturbing comments about 3 or 4!

Remember, 3 can ride in the back of a sedan. 4 means a minivan.

The point for us is moot though as my son obviously loves them and is fascinated by them so we are going down the path of gun safety rather than a total ban. I would much rather him grow up hunting with his dad, grandfather and uncle than be secretly fixated and satisfy his curiosity elsewhere. Also I have no control over whether there are guns in the homes of his friends so it is important he understand exactly what they can do if used improperly. If he has no experience with them I'm not sure how he would understand.

Yup, friends whose parents decried guns and refused to allow any of them in the house were always the ones most fascinated when they found out that we had guns in the house. They were always the ones that wante dto see, touch, etc, and were also the ones who were least safe around the guns. Kids from houses were guns weren't hidden away didn't care, and were safe around them.

 

[alexanna]

Can't blame the man for being Saudi...and must have been confusing for him you liked the way he treated you until you found out his nationality. That is where it becomes more tricky in that I don't think you can welcome it one day and think it OK, and then based on race, reject it and use it as a political, social and personal nit picking stance the next. Nor can you hold one person responsible for centuries of tradition, custom and culture of their country. LOL, F found he had to ask his Saudi colleagues why the heck there were tons of lingerie shops and boutiques selling mini skirts and quite provocative women's clothing given the state of the law and dress code. They laughed and said, 'You think they're naked under those burka's'? He didn't, but he was just astounded at the contradictions.

It was confusing for both of us. I was surprised at my own reaction really. All it really did was bring to light that he didn't like discussing things with me. It was a very limited online relationship which existed inside some very strict boundaries and before knowing his nationality I never cared about discussing anything very serious but when I found out I couldn't stop asking questions and pointing out inconsistencies. I recognized that I was sabotaging the relationship and that he was still the same person even while it was happening.

I will always have a special place in my heart for him. I feel like he woke me up from a very deep sleep I had been in for years. His flavor of ultra protective, ultra possessive, but extremely playful Daddy type domination was what I needed at a time when I was feeling extremely helpless. It was strange and foreign to me to have a man be attracted to me while I was in such a low state and he truly helped me through that period.

 

[Netzach]

Am I weird in that I think trying to steer your kid away from bang your're dead antics before they're like, 12 is fine

if you live in a city... then getting them a gun safety class when they're old enough (boy OR girl)

...and reinforcing the seriousness of guns and then getting them a gun safety class and a hunting rifle when they're of the right age in bumfuck is also a good idea?

Real guns taken seriously don't bother me. And I'd be encouraging any girls I had strongly in this direction.

I also think people need outlets, and that for most well socialized people shit blowing up in movies and violent video games are more outlet than temptation. No need to go about desensitizing them when they're 4 freaking years old though.

 

[Netzach]

Remember, 3 can ride in the back of a sedan. 4 means a minivan.




Yup, friends whose parents decried guns and refused to allow any of them in the house were always the ones most fascinated when they found out that we had guns in the house. They were always the ones that wante dto see, touch, etc, and were also the ones who were least safe around the guns. Kids from houses were guns weren't hidden away didn't care, and were safe around them.

Kids from houses where guns aren't hidden are not inherently the safest around them. The parents involved not being completely dysfunctional helps and I'd say that does more for your kids being safe than just exposure, no?

... and the parents being clued in enough to maybe re-think their responsible gun ownership when it's clear that a family member has mental issues are also a factor. Responsible carrying around a fucked up kid can get you a columbine. The problem is that people get so inflexible around the issue of rights that they refuse to see that carrying if you are a woman in a city might be a GREAT idea, and carrying if your teen is just home from inpatient might be a shit idea.

 

[Netzach]

I am rubbing my hands waiting for the "oh but you're not HAVING any" moment.

As though this stubborn common sense thing would go away when I pop one out and then I'll SEE how it really is...

If it makes anyone feel better, I had swords and suits of plastic armor that got a lot more wear than my dolls, and guns were stupid. I did have a tutu and I did turn into a terror from hell if people weren't paying ATTENTION when I danced in it. It's about power, duh.

 

[intothewoods]

Am I weird in that I think trying to steer your kid away from bang your're dead antics before they're like, 12 is fine

if you live in a city... then getting them a gun safety class when they're old enough (boy OR girl)

...and reinforcing the seriousness of guns and then getting them a gun safety class and a hunting rifle when they're of the right age in bumfuck is also a good idea?

Real guns taken seriously don't bother me. And I'd be encouraging any girls I had strongly in this direction.

I also think people need outlets, and that for most well socialized people shit blowing up in movies and violent video games are more outlet than temptation. No need to go about desensitizing them when they're 4 freaking years old though.

This actually sums up my point of view on guns pretty well. I don't like stupid gun play - bang, bang, you're dead. I don't like the idea that my kid wouldn't think about what it means when to take a life. And that's a far cry from serious hunters, etc.

And you are so right to bring up power. I see power and control and the process of becoming socialized as these big ever-present issues. The gun thing is ancillary and is more a question of safety and thinking about the power of technology. With one pull of a trigger, some serious shit could happen. I don't ever want my kid to be blind to that.

 

[Homburg]

Kids from houses where guns aren't hidden are not inherently the safest around them. The parents involved not being completely dysfunctional helps and I'd say that does more for your kids being safe than just exposure, no?

... and the parents being clued in enough to maybe re-think their responsible gun ownership when it's clear that a family member has mental issues are also a factor. Responsible carrying around a fucked up kid can get you a columbine. The problem is that people get so inflexible around the issue of rights that they refuse to see that carrying if you are a woman in a city might be a GREAT idea, and carrying if your teen is just home from inpatient might be a shit idea.

In my case, I was offering anecdotal experience. Literally, this is what I observed as a kid. I had friend from gun-friendly houses, and they didn't care when they saw a rifle in a rack on the wall. Friends from houses that were not gun-friendly had a weird fascination with the real thing, and were patently unsafe as a result.

Still, the core is non-dysfunctional parenting, but, from my experience, kids that are denied access and preached to about the evils of guns are the ones that want to play with them the most. So, yes, just exposure makes them a bit more safe, in my experience, as there is less mystery to the gun when they've been exposed to it.


In my case, we live in a light city. My kids will be taught how to shoot when I feel they're ready (and I have time). They've already gone through Eddie Eagle style kid safety training (Look it up. It is easily the single best thing the NRA has ever done. If more kids were trained in this style we'd have less articles in the paper about junior accidentally shooting himself or his little sister). We have guns. They will be taught what they are, how destructive they are, and when it is, and is not, appropriate to use them. And the biggest thing they will be taught is safety.

Basic Eddie Eagle stuff:

If you see a gun
1) STOP! DON'T TOUCH IT!
2) Leave the area.
3) Tell a responsible adult.

My two oldest kids have this down pat, and have been really smart about identifying what is a gun. The youngest ones are still too little to get the concept.

As to gun safety courses, wow, do I ever agree wholeheartedly with that. Yeah, I'm perfectly happy to handle that training myself, but I've been teaching gun safety for 20 years now. I still support the idea. And, to be frank, even though I'm a gun rights proponent, I would support a gun-owner's license were it handled like a driver's license. Classes easily available, fees not onerous, safety classes required, etc. Yeah, it is legislation, and can be considered restrictive, but we require people to go through it before they drive. Admittedly, a car is vastly more destructive than a gun, but I would consider it reasonable so long as it not used as de facto gun control.

And this topic has really wandered rather heavily.

 

[Homburg]

This actually sums up my point of view on guns pretty well. I don't like stupid gun play - bang, bang, you're dead. I don't like the idea that my kid wouldn't think about what it means when to take a life. And that's a far cry from serious hunters, etc.

And you are so right to bring up power. I see power and control and the process of becoming socialized as these big ever-present issues. The gun thing is ancillary and is more a question of safety and thinking about the power of technology. With one pull of a trigger, some serious shit could happen. I don't ever want my kid to be blind to that.

This is so true. I was taught at a young age that there were consequences when that trigger was pulled. Bullets destroy things, so make sure that you are willing to destroy whatever you are pointing it at before you pull that trigger. My father did not glamourise or present it as cool. It was a tool, nothing more, and I kept that mentality. To me, my guns are basically on the same level as my wrenches and pry-bars. They've just got different effects when used.

In retrospect, I tend to look at them the same way I look at my floggers, ropes, and other BDSM tools. Tools, capable of harm if used improperly. That's it. Frankly, I do FAR more dangerous stuff in play than I have ever done with a gun.

 

[alexanna]

They managed to kill 800,000 people in Rwanda in just a few months with Machetes.

Just sayin...

 

[Tyr51]

I am now a couple of pages behind in this conversation. So I'll say my piece in response, and then I shall bow out.

I posted what I felt was an honest piece of conversation. I may enjoy certain things in sexual intercourse, but I fully believe that my discussion and insight into subjects will be seen with respect and equality on these boards. I may chose to give things to a partner. This does not mean I am lesser, nor does it give anyone the right to assume I will give anything of myself to then. If we have not met, consider me as your peer, and please treat me as such.

So, after a post that I wrote to enter into an interesting discussion on gender issues, I was met with "let's have some pictures, sweetheart." And I was offended. I didn't enter this discussion as anyone's sub. I entered it as a fully actualized and educated woman. God forbid.... I wanted to talk.

Marquis has now made it clear he was being playful, and I fully appreciate that. Thank you! ( I really do appreciate your further clarification.... It meant a lot!) But yes... while I have been writing on this site and being on the sidelines for a few years, I have stayed away from the message boards. I *am* a new person here. So if someone is playing with me, I feel the need to either know them, or I really do feel the need to have my words taken as part of a valuble discussion. If my being a sub in my private relationships means no one on the board who identifies as "Dom" cares what I say? Why bother posting? You can all just post to yourselves if you prefer.

"Deservingbitch" said something very important:
"However... not all kind of 'humor' is funny in every situation. I've mentioned it a few times here in different threads: when a 'joke' sounds very much like the kind of bigoted and oppressive comments that we hear all day long, the 'joke' tends not to be very funny. This is particularly the case in a forum like this one, where people don't necessarily know each other very well. So, while I won't be offended if a good friend of mine tells me that "yeah yeah, all those political concerns of yours are very cute, but could you just take your clothes off and be pretty?" I am NOT going to find it funny if someone on this board that I don't know as well was to say something similar."
Thank you for that. That is precisely how I felt, and I truly appreciate you being able to vocalize something that I might not have been able to do as clearly. *hugs*

Homburg wrote:
It's sexuality, politics, and rights, not cancer. Hell, I'll make jokes about cancer if I feel like it will lighten the mood properly. Yes, politics and civil rights is serious shit, but the discussions on serious shit get so damned dark and grave that people get even more wound up and self-righteous about the topic. We should be able to sit here and chat about these concepts openly, and that means allowing humour.

No, it's not cancer. I got to deal with that this year, too, so no....... people writing things on message boards is not nearly the same thing, and people being silly is not the same as worrying you will lose your breast, your life.... any of that.
You do not know me; I expect to be treated with respect. And if a serious question is asked, I expect to be able to give a serious answer and have that receieved in all the respect with which it was given.

Playful threads, I am all for teasing. This one was serious, I felt belittled, I brought it up, they made nice. We're all good.


The conversation has since progressed to more serious issues, so I shall bow out.

Best to you all,

 

[EmpressFi]

They managed to kill 800,000 people in Rwanda in just a few months with Machetes.

Just sayin...

machetes, guns, tanks, bombs, and airstrikes...we humans are amazing when it comes to ways to kill each other

 

[alexanna]

The conversation has since progressed to more serious issues, so I shall bow out.

I don't personally find guns more serious than feminism.

I am not really able to reconcile my feminist leanings with my submissive desires. I like Cat's explanation but I'm still somewhat uncomfortable and probably always will be. How can I read De Beauvoir one minute and get spanked the next and not feel a little weird? When we were first married my husband used to call me "his little feminist" all the time. It infuriated and aroused me at the same time. Still can when he says it when I am trying to have a serious discussion.

Feminism is about more than just rights for me though. It is about thinking about the inherent inequality that comes with being female and how society and we as individuals process and deal with it. Part of BDSM for me is experiencing life without all the social constructs we have put in place to protect the individual; a way to experience life in a more primal way where I really am not only weaker but a receiver, a vessel, waiting to be acted upon.

I also think about feminism as trying to figure out just what "feminine" is. It has been hid and put down for so long I do not believe we have a very good grasp of it, especially feminine as a chaotic and powerful destructive force.

I do not just want to be a man with a vagina which is honestly what I feel like sometimes. I operate in a very masculine world and I am required to be masculine to be successful in that world. In order to insert my feminine identity I need to know what it is and how to be comfortable with it. I don't know if BDSM can help facilitate that or not, it has certainly made me more comfortable with myself.

As an aside Marquis never flirted with me. I had to get to like 85 posts before he even noticed my existence. I'm rather hurt actually.

 

[intothewoods]

I don't personally find guns more serious than feminism.

I am not really able to reconcile my feminist leanings with my submissive desires. I like Cat's explanation but I'm still somewhat uncomfortable and probably always will be. How can I read De Beauvoir one minute and get spanked the next and not feel a little weird? When we were first married my husband used to call me "his little feminist" all the time. It infuriated and aroused me at the same time. Still can when he says it when I am trying to have a serious discussion.

Feminism is about more than just rights for me though. It is about thinking about the inherent inequality that comes with being female and how society and us as individuals process and deal with it. Part of BDSM for me is experiencing life without all the social constructs we have put in place to protect the individual; a way to experience life in a more primal way where I really am not only weaker but a receiver, a vessel, waiting to be acted upon.

I also think about feminism as trying to figure out just what "feminine" is. It has been hid and put down for so long I do not believe we have a very good grasp of it, especially feminine as a chaotic and powerful destructive force.

I do not just want to be a man with a vagina which is honestly what I feel like sometimes. I operate in a very masculine world and I am required to be masculine to be successful in that world. In order to insert my feminine identity I need to know what is it and how to be comfortable with it. I don't know if BDSM can help facilitate that or not, it has certainly made me more comfortable with myself.

Reconciling your feminist beliefs with submissive desires...do you mean your sexual desires, or something else - service to a man, for example? Because I don't see any conflict at all with sexual freedom and feminism. When I'm intimate with my PYL, we are really just pleasing each other. I don't see all that much difference between the two of us, and a vanilla couple who prefers anal or something. We're just doing what we like.

I don't really get your comment about feminity as a powerful and destructive force. Sounds colorful, but what does that really mean?

My political and social beliefs just don't have much to do with what I do in my bedroom. I guess in this instance, my feeling is the personal is not the political, except to the extent that I don't want the government legislating my bedroom activities.

As far as submission that is not foreplay goes, for me, myself and I, it doesn't jive with my sense of what motivates me in life. It has something to do with feminism, but it's also more than that. I have to make my own decisions, and if and when I get remarried, be a true partner with my PYL/spouse (in my case) as far as family decisions go. While there is a part of me that sees the attraction to ceding real power over myself, I know it wouldn't be good for me. I am still learning what it means to be me, and I have to do that myself right now. I have to be responsible for me and mine in order to quiet that voice that asks, what would happen if everyone left you, and you were all alone - could you survive?