Guilt.. ever feel it and how do you deal?

[neonflux]

I'm totally with ADR & JM on this one. Mixing the feelings of BDSM with something religious or spiritual is very, very dangerous in my view.

Nope, no sexual guilts for me. I am as I am & have long since accepted it. I have felt distress, in the past, due to hurts caused to others by their own refusal to accept me for who & what I am, but guilts as such, no.

How can sexuality NOT be spiritual at times? I don't understand why this is so hard for people to accept. Perrhaps others' experiences with religion are just very different from mine. And that's fine, but I feel personally attacked at this point. Why is this not just a different experience of kink?

If this is so much anathema, why do so many books on BDSM include chapters on spirituality? Books that I respect and that others often reference, including "The New Topping Book"? And why do so many religious traditions include sexuality and sexual practice as one path to sacred experience? I just don't get it?

There is a part of me that is wishing I hadn't opened myself up so much. Then again, your experiences of spirituality - vs. religion - two entirely different things, are not mine. This is an integral part of my being and part of how I live. I never take umbrage at people disagreeing with me on this forum, but for some reason, I am on the verge of tears at the moment and wanting to never post here again. Why is this so different from other discussions of people's kink being different?

Sorry if this wasn't meant personally, but it felt like a personal attack....

Got this one other time when I first posted on this board about my BDSM cleansing - which had a strongly spiritual aspect to it - done by a good friend without benefit of a safe word.

Neon

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

How can sexuality NOT be spiritual at times? I don't understand why this is so hard for people to accept. Perrhaps others' experiences with religion are just very different from mine. And that's fine, but I feel personally attacked at this point. Why is this not just a different experience of kink?

If this is so much anathema, why do so many books on BDSM include chapters on spirituality? Books that I respect and that others often reference, including "The New Topping Book"? And why do so many religious traditions include sexuality and sexual practice as one path to sacred experience? I just don't get it?

There is a part of me that is wishing I hadn't opened myself up so much. Then again, your experiences of spirituality - vs. religion - two entirely different things, are not mine. This is an integral part of my being and part of how I live. I never take umbrage at people disagreeing with me on this forum, but for some reason, I am on the verge of tears at the moment and wanting to never post here again. Why is this so different from other discussions of people's kink being different?

Sorry, but I won't apologize for my current rant! There is a difference between comments like this, and JMohegan's....

Neon

Neon the possibility of you leaving the Forum would be one of the greatest losses in my time as a part of the 'Community' here. Not sure what else to say but you have my utmost respect and support.

 

[JMohegan]

But I don't connect either of these responses or BDSM experiences as resembling anything sacred. Sacred experience to me involves the absense or loss of ego. The temporary dissolution, in a certain sense, of self.

What I am speaking of involves a great deal of humility and awe. It is not about asserting oneself, but in both cases about surrendering to something larger, to connecting to something larger - I would never suggest that it is ME doing either. I know it may sound silly, but there is something about sex - and bdsm - that can help one connect to something much bigger than oneself - to reach a state that I can only call mystical because it is so outside of the realm of ordinary experience.

This doesn't sound silly to me, and I understand it much better than what you wrote before.

What I would say, though, is that the experience can be humbling for both people at the same time. The reason that the Dom ~ God analogy doesn't work for me is that it puts the Dom above the sub in the "sacred experience", as opposed to the two of them side by side.

I hope that made sense. Good lord, in these abstract discussions I really do feel as if I'm grunting in response to your eloquence! (Have mercy on me, woman! I'm a guy, remember? )

Have you ever read the book, Consensual Sadomasochism by Sybil Holiday? Or the chapter on spirituality in The New Topping Book?

I have a confession to make here.

I've never read a single book on the topic of D/s or BDSM.

I'm the original Illiterate Dom.... I just made everything up for myself as I went along.

[Perhaps I should put this in my sig line as a qualifying heads-up for those who read my posts. ]

 

[A Desert Rose]

How can sexuality NOT be spiritual at times? I don't understand why this is so hard for people to accept. Perrhaps others' experiences with religion are just very different from mine. And that's fine, but I feel personally attacked at this point. Why is this not just a different experience of kink?

If this is so much anathema, why do so many books on BDSM include chapters on spirituality? Books that I respect and that others often reference, including "The New Topping Book"? And why do so many religious traditions include sexuality and sexual practice as one path to sacred experience? I just don't get it?

There is a part of me that is wishing I hadn't opened myself up so much. Then again, your experiences of spirituality - vs. religion - two entirely different things, are not mine. This is an integral part of my being and part of how I live. I never take umbrage at people disagreeing with me on this forum, but for some reason, I am on the verge of tears at the moment and wanting to never post here again. Why is this so different from other discussions of people's kink being different?

Sorry if this wasn't meant personally, but it felt like a personal attack....

Got this one other time when I first posted on this board about my BDSM cleansing - which had a strongly spiritual aspect to it - done by a good friend without benefit of a safe word.

Neon

I'm sorry if you feel attacked. I see this as a discussion. Because a couple of people don't agree with your point of view, does not constitute an attack. Jeepers... most people never agree with me. (read some of my posts.)

And honestly, I do understand your pov. To a degree, I agree with it. I'm just not into analyzing sex (and I've said this numerous times before) when I'd rather just enjoy what I have.

My apologies for offending you.

 

[Lilly_Pinkass]

How can sexuality NOT be spiritual at times?

Because it isn't, for me.

Like you said, we all experience our "kinks" in a different way.

 

[neonflux]

And I how I submit to a Dom/me is nothing like my relationship with God.

And this, I now realize, is probably at the heart of the misunderstanding. My submission to a Top is not like my relationship with the Divine, it is a path to a connection to the divine. It is not about worshipping my Top, it is about us sharing an experience that is mystical, that is bigger than ourselves, that brings us closer to the sacred that is not only within ourselves but the larger universe. This is also true when I spoke of sacred experience while Topping - I do not see myself as the Goddess - that is hubris, rather I see myself as operating in a sacred space in such a way that it again allows for a connection to the Divine - NOT me, or my partner, but something larger than the both of us.

Some of this grows out of a different concept, perhaps, of Divinity. I don't believe in an all-knowing Goddess or God. I do believe in "Divine Principle." A sort of force that lives in and connects all of us to each other. Einstein (an athiest) once held a series of conversations with the Indian/Hindu poet Tagore, who spoke of this concept of "God" in his work. At the end of their discussions (which are available in print), Einstein said that if God was as Tagore talked and wrote about "Him/Her," then Einstein believed in God.

........ Neon

 

[satindesire]

As a precursor to my little mini-rant, I want to say that I in no way think that anyone who drinks alcohol or has one-night-stands is a bad person, and want you all to know this is merely MY opinion of MY OWN sexuality and experiences, and want to in no way push my opinions on anyone else, or say that mine are more right than anyone else's choices.

Now, onto the meat of the subject.

In my eyes....Sexuality is a fluid, genderless, beautiful thing that when accepted as such, can be one of the most precious gifts ever given to us by our Creator.

Being raised in a deeply Christian household, my parents (bless their hearts) were wise enough to, instead of teaching me that sexuality was dangerous or unacceptable or 'unholy', instilled in me an acceptance of the ideas of pleasurable sex for recreation and bonding purposes, the need for careful protection from STDs and early pregnancy, and the utmost importance to keep sex a sacred thing to be shared between people that cared for each other, married or not.

As a result, I grew up feeling like sex was not a thing to be a hidden thrill stolen in snatches of meager privacy, given to any person who expressed interest in me...I felt like sex was a wonderful thing to be cherished and deeply respected, and have never debased myself or my soul by meaningless, drunken one-night-stands and heartless couplings devoid of tenderness and love.

Five sexual partners, including my present Sir, has been my total experience. My open mindedness has led me to be able to explore the vast variety of sexual acts even though my numbers are far fewer than most my age, and I've found my sexual identity without the need to throw away the spirituality and respect I have for my sexuality.

Sex, in my eyes, is passion and tenderness and the total submission to your most primal emotions and drives. A vulnerable moment in time where your soul is bared to your partner. The most intimate of acts. I don't want to ever ruin that with feeling like what I'm doing is wrong. I was never taught it was wrong, and I'm never going to teach my children that it's wrong.

It's easy to forget how precious sex and sexuality can be. It's easy to get caught up in the trappings of a party lifestyle and debase the act by coupling with partners you don't know or care about, and might never see again. It can be fun and exotic and intoxicating, that thrill of knowing that you're doing something some people might consider wrong. But in my eyes, it's about how YOU feel when you look in the mirror.

I have no regrets.

(edited for spell check)

 

[Lilly_Pinkass]

Well, there ya go. I'm an atheist.

 

[neonflux]

Because it isn't, for me.

Like you said, we all experience our "kinks" in a different way.

I completely understand that. My kink partner's other play partner is about as far away from spirituality when it comes to sex as one can get. I am not disrespecting anyone for whom this is the case. In fact, in my first post, I stated that I knew that others wouldn't share in this experience.

So why is everyone jumping on me for mine? A select number of people aren't saying, as you have, that it is not a part of their experience. They are saying that linking the two is dangerous. That is not respecting my experience, but denegrating it.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Well, there ya go. I'm an atheist.

LMAO... I like you.

 

[A Desert Rose]

I completely understand that. My kink partner's other play partner is about as far away from spirituality when it comes to sex as one can get. I am not disrespecting anyone for whom this is the case. In fact, in my first post, I stated that I knew that others wouldn't share in this experience.

So why is everyone jumping on me for mine? A select number of people aren't saying, as you have, that it is not a part of their experience. They are saying that linking the two is dangerous. That is not respecting my experience, but denegrating it.

Where did I say it was dangerous?

I said, once again, that I am not going to analyze my sex life. I do not feel shame or guilt about it. I do not compare my relationship with a Dom to my relationship with God. I accept who and what I am.

If that's denegrating your opinions then again, please accept my apology.

 

[neonflux]

I'm sorry if you feel attacked. I see this as a discussion. Because a couple of people don't agree with your point of view, does not constitute an attack. Jeepers... most people never agree with me. (read some of my posts.)

And honestly, I do understand your pov. To a degree, I agree with it. I'm just not into analyzing sex (and I've said this numerous times before) when I'd rather just enjoy what I have.

My apologies for offending you.

You didn't offend me, sweet, and I owe you an apology. The fact that I didn't take offense was the reason I responded to your first post in the way that I did. With humor. I was responding to a very particular post that was a little flip while telling me that the way I sometimes experience my sexuality was essentially dangerous...

Always, Neon

 

[Lilly_Pinkass]

They are saying that linking the two is dangerous. That is not respecting my experience, but denegrating it.

Why do they have to respect your experience?

 

[satindesire]

Why do they have to respect your experience?

I think what Neon meant was, accepting it as her own opinion without reserved judgment that was biased by their own experiences, and speaking in a negative way to or about Neon because of that bias.

Of course, as humans we are all inherently judgmental, but acting on that to degrade or put down someone isn't usually socially acceptable. I saw that Neon felt that, perhaps?

I could be wrong. I'm not Neon. Merely expression my own thoughts about the situation.

 

[incubus'_sub]

Neon, I really like & respect you & your opinions. I don't see sex as a spiritual thing at all, I don't even really combine it with love in my mind, although the 2 can of course go together & have great meaning.

It's just a different attitude, that's all & was in no way an attack or even a comment about you.

The "dangerous" comment is coming from a few recent threads where new people are seemingly being overcome with impossible devotion etc etc. No one, be they sub or Dom, can live up to this type of attitude, this fanaticism, this quasi religious state & that's what I see as being dangerous.

 

[neonflux]

Neon the possibility of you leaving the Forum would be one of the greatest losses in my time as a part of the 'Community' here. Not sure what else to say but you have my utmost respect and support.

I wouldn't leave - realize that part of this is due to the fact that I shared something very personal and didn't expect the response I got. There seems to me to be a huge difference between reasonable discourse and attack... I usually take things with a measure of equanimity, but think that I responded so strongly because the experiences I shared are so personal. (And because I am sick - sniffle - bronchitis is not good for the soull!)

for your friendship! ~ Neon

 

[Lilly_Pinkass]

I'm not speaking bad about Neon; he/she seems like a nice enough person, but expecting people to just nod and smile isn't fair, either. They have a right to share their opinions which are coloured by their experiences, even negative ones.

 

[neonflux]

This doesn't sound silly to me, and I understand it much better than what you wrote before.

What I would say, though, is that the experience can be humbling for both people at the same time. The reason that the Dom ~ God analogy doesn't work for me is that it puts the Dom above the sub in the "sacred experience", as opposed to the two of them side by side.

I hope that made sense. Good lord, in these abstract discussions I really do feel as if I'm grunting in response to your eloquence! (Have mercy on me, woman! I'm a guy, remember? )

I have a confession to make here.

I've never read a single book on the topic of D/s or BDSM.

I'm the original Illiterate Dom.... I just made everything up for myself as I went along.

[Perhaps I should put this in my sig line as a qualifying heads-up for those who read my posts. ]

Illiterate? (he he he he he, coming from the man who started the Bard thread!)

I absolutely agree that the experience can be humbling for both. And please, if I were as eloquent as you suggest, you wouldn't have had to ask for clarification!

Regarding your experiences with BDSM - I have read other portions of your story on other threads and am in awe of it. How you figured this all out on your own, even safe words, and made it so loving, without initial benefit of community.

Anyway, thank you for the civil discourse, as always you make me think and clarify my own responses. Disagreement when done with respect is good for the soul (so to speak!).

Neon

 

[neonflux]

Neon, I really like & respect you & your opinions. I don't see sex as a spiritual thing at all, I don't even really combine it with love in my mind, although the 2 can of course go together & have great meaning.

It's just a different attitude, that's all & was in no way an attack or even a comment about you.

The "dangerous" comment is coming from a few recent threads where new people are seemingly being overcome with impossible devotion etc etc. No one, be they sub or Dom, can live up to this type of attitude, this fanaticism, this quasi religious state & that's what I see as being dangerous.

Thank you for your post - I think that I am a little oversensitive about this because what I shared is so personal to me... I understand those for whom spirituality is not a part of sex. As I mentioned earlier, my kink partner's other play partner in no way connects the two (and we are friends).

I do understand your concern about overenthusiastic worship - and JM's about Dom/mes who dangerously see themselves as Gods. As I mentioned in my post to JM, I actually started dating someone like that (2 months only - the warning signs for me were apparent) before I ever got formally involved in BDSM. And yes, I respect you, also. And I do enjoy debate!

Neon

 

[neonflux]

As a precursor to my little mini-rant, I want to say that I in no way think that anyone who drinks alcohol or has one-night-stands is a bad person, and want you all to know this is merely MY opinion of MY OWN sexuality and experiences, and want to in no way push my opinions on anyone else, or say that mine are more right than anyone else's choices.

Now, onto the meat of the subject.

In my eyes....Sexuality is a fluid, genderless, beautiful thing that when accepted as such, can be one of the most precious gifts ever given to us by our Creator.

Being raised in a deeply Christian household, my parents (bless their hearts) were wise enough to, instead of teaching me that sexuality was dangerous or unacceptable or 'unholy', instilled in me an acceptance of the ideas of pleasurable sex for recreation and bonding purposes, the need for careful protection from STDs and early pregnancy, and the utmost importance to keep sex a sacred thing to be shared between people that cared for each other, married or not.

As a result, I grew up feeling like sex was not a thing to be a hidden thrill stolen in snatches of meager privacy, given to any person who expressed interest in me...I felt like sex was a wonderful thing to be cherished and deeply respected, and have never debased myself or my soul by meaningless, drunken one-night-stands and heartless couplings devoid of tenderness and love.

Five sexual partners, including my present Sir, has been my total experience. My open mindedness has led me to be able to explore the vast variety of sexual acts even though my numbers are far fewer than most my age, and I've found my sexual identity without the need to throw away the spirituality and respect I have for my sexuality.

Sex, in my eyes, is passion and tenderness and the total submission to your most primal emotions and drives. A vulnerable moment in time where your soul is bared to your partner. The most intimate of acts. I don't want to ever ruin that with feeling like what I'm doing is wrong. I was never taught it was wrong, and I'm never going to teach my children that it's wrong.

It's easy to forget how precious sex and sexuality can be. It's easy to get caught up in the trappings of a party lifestyle and debase the act by coupling with partners you don't know or care about, and might never see again. It can be fun and exotic and intoxicating, that thrill of knowing that you're doing something some people might consider wrong. But in my eyes, it's about how YOU feel when you look in the mirror.

I have no regrets.

(edited for spell check)

SatinDesire - you are indeed blessed! I really enjoyed your share.

Neon

 

[lil_slave_rose]

Why do they have to respect your experience?

because the lifestyle is about respect? respecting one's kink as 'different' *shrugs* made perfect sense to me.....

 

[Lilly_Pinkass]

because the lifestyle is about respect? respecting one's kink as 'different' *shrugs* made perfect sense to me.....

For you and others, maybe, but I don't respect someone or their "kinks" if I don't know them. I respect their right to their kinks, but I'm going to share my opinion about it, too. It may not always be positive.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

For you and others, maybe, but I don't respect someone or their "kinks" if I don't know them. I respect their right to their kinks, but I'm going to share my opinion about it, too. It may not always be positive.

'sharing your opinion' is way different than not respecting someone else's 'opinion' and you don't have to 'attack' with the opinion either..there is a difference between debating (which i like to do) and personal attacks because you don't agree with someone else's views. anyway..my thoughts on it..

i agree with neon to a point and understand what she is saying. i too believe that there is alot of spirituality that goes along with BDSM.

as far as guilt? no i don't think i feel guilt for my 'kinks'. i'm happy with who i am and truly believe that is what matters, if i had guilt i'm not sure that i'd be able to do this thing we do simply because guilt tells me i'm doing something wrong, and i'm not (IMO)

 

[Lilly_Pinkass]

'sharing your opinion' is way different than not respecting someone else's 'opinion' and you don't have to 'attack' with the opinion either..there is a difference between debating (which i like to do) and personal attacks because you don't agree with someone else's views. anyway..my thoughts on it..

I agree with your point in regards to personal attacks and debating. But I don't respect the opinions of strangers, in regards to my life, or my kinks. However I respect their right to hold them.

I like to be dominated, and be fucked hard - that's what the "lifestyle" is about, for me. That's it.

And no, I don't have any guilt about my kinks.


But I've derailed this thread enough.

 

[Penalt]

Being raised as a Jehovah's Witness and knowing what my kink was. Guilt, hell ya. Even after I left them behind at age 24 I still never even masturbated until age 29 and didn't have actual sex until age 32.

Happily, I was able to find a woman who taught me that my kink was not just okay but enjoyable. I still do find myself at times feeling guilty at some of the things I want to do to Mamid. How do I deal with it? I tell her. She calls me a pervert while having a massive smile on her face which tells me that its okay as long as I don't scare the children or the horses.