Is it just me?

[gauchecritic]

Or addressed someone as Thee?

-Colly

Eerm... This afternoon actually. Along with a conservative estimate of probably 4 or 5 million other common users.

Eee duz tha know.

Gauche (seriously)

 

[Colleen Thomas]

LOL,

Sorry Gauchie, No slight intended

-Colly

 

[Seattle Zack]

How about Shakespeare, Zack? We take dozens of his inventions for granted, e.g.,

Well The Bard, of course, without him we'd be stuck with half a dictionary. I was trying to think of someone more contemporary. Jabberwocky was late 19th-century, and more of a poem than prose, so that's not even a good example.

"Defense" is one that annoys me, and sportscasters use it all the time: "Here's the way to defense that particular play."

--Zack

P.S. Angeline, good stuff -- very melodic and clever. I was impressed. Unorthodox works, when it's done with style.

 

[KenJames]

Erm, kylewhitney, your corollary simply doesn't work, in fact I couldn't think what else to call your extremely faulty logic.

Perdita

Er, I think he's being sarcastic.

 

[Angeline]

P.S. Angeline, good stuff -- very melodic and clever. I was impressed. Unorthodox works, when it's done with style.

Thanks Zack. (Now I'll cross my fingers and hope the jazz lit journal editor thinks so, too.)

 

[Guest]

Er, I think he's being sarcastic.

I wanted to give that benefit of the doubt but it doesn't work as sarcasm either.

Yeah, I'm a bitch re. rhetoric,

Perdita

 

[KenJames]

A writer had better have a superb command of the English language to start making up words and expect The Reader to buy it. Anthony Burgess and Lewis Carrol were able to accomplish it, but I have difficulty coming up with another example offhand.

--Zack

I believe that in "A Clockwork Orange," Burgess based his words on Russian, rather than simply making them up, such as "horrorshow" for "carashow" (good). Of course, that doesn't make it any less brilliant.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

One of my favorite sites for keeping an eye on new words:

http://www.wordspy.com/index.asp

Of course, new words are popping up all the time. They have to. Just look at what the net has given us. And how can you hate such words and terms as "glurge", "affluenza", and "dead-cat bounce"?

I've made up words on the spot myself. I still remember using "excresense" as a word in some story as a synonym for an oozy exudation. I have no idea whether there is such a word or not.

"Agented" might be a particularly raw and annoying usage, but who knows? Is it worse than saying "peddled, cajoled, whined, and threatened in order to get this book into print (and then took 5%)"? Maybe when you're Stephen King you routinely talk about someone "agenting" your book. Maybe "agentified" would have been better? Agenticated? Agentized?


---dr.M.

 

[Guest]

Maybe "agentified" would have been better? Agenticated? Agentization?

Eaow! Stop, please...

Thanks for the url though,

Perdita

 

[kylewhitney]

I wanted to give that benefit of the doubt but it doesn't work as sarcasm either.

Yeah, I'm a bitch re. rhetoric,

Perdita

Let me start by apologizing to everyone for attempting to inject levity into the debate - I did not properly asses the seriousness of the zealotry I was facing.

Nonetheless, I believe my logic is sound. Creative people strive to communicate ideas. Some use paint, some use moving images, some use words. If a painter "invents" a new color, they are not told they can't use it. If a director "creates" a new shot, she isn’t chastised for not following the rules laid down by someone long dead. And if a writer "develops" the perfect word to express a thought why must he bow to your concept of correctness?

As an example, I was reading Steve Martin's "The Pleasure of My Company" today and ran across a great new word. The character is jogging down the sidewalk and describes what follows as:

"... I was still shooting forward like a cannonball when, just this side of the point of no return, I put on the brakes and urked to a cartoon halt, and for a second I was the Road Runner and the curb was the Grand Canyon."

"urked"!? What a great word! But the word doesn't exist, so it's not permitted? Fuck that - it's perfect! But why use “urked” when there are plenty of acceptable ways to say the same thing? Because this author wanted to say what he said in that particular way. And I thank him for the fleeting amusement I garnered from it.

And by no means does Steve Martin sit among the greatest of literary luminaries. So does this mean he isn't allowed to play with the language? If a bricklayer wanted to put together a wall with round bricks, and figured out the right way to do it, he'd be hailed as a genius by some, and called an idiot by others. Then he'd be killed by some union thugs, but that's another matter.

Anyone is free to point their finger and declare another as illiterate or ignorant. But doing so doesn't make it true, nor does it make the accuser any better for it. More importantly, it doesn't contribute anything of value. Steve Martin gave me something new and unique that I can carry with me. Grasping blindly to an elitist view of language and damning those who transgress gains me nothing.

Perhaps my perspective is damaged due to the fact that I want to enjoy writing and have some fun with it. I guess if I wanted future generations of college students to be forced to study my works I would see things differently. That being the case, I should probably stop hanging out at sites featuring serious literature and go find one that publishes dirty stories instead. (hmmm... I hope that worked as sarcasm)

Smiles everyone, smiles!

- K

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Sarcasm and irony rarely work on this site.

---dr.M.

 

[Guest]

Hey, kylewhitney. Welcome to the AH. Nearly no one is a zealot here, sorry if that's how you read it. Still disagree w/your logic but no big. (Have to add though - I love Steve Martin as a comic but using him as an example for your argument really doesn't go far.)

Hang about longer and you'll get our various styles of communicating, which is the basic purpose of this site. We try to have fun too, honest.

regards, Perdita

 

[gauchecritic]

Sarcasm and irony rarely work on this site.

---dr.M.

Quite apart from which, if irony is attempted it'll just be met with sarcasm and very occasionally vice versa.

Gauche

 

[Angeline]

Kyle I have no problem with your points, and I'm even smiling. Honest. [Look-------> an unreasonable fascimile of my smile ]

I agree with you. I *love* to make up words. Go to the pseudodictionary and look up "snurfle." It's one of mine. I wrote a poem about Halloween last year in which I used "punkinated" to describe the season. The jazz sonnet I just wrote includes "synch-psych" and "beatbone." Ok? Can I be in the creative club, too? And smile! I'm not being sarcastic, just a little silly.

I do NOT equate that sort of word play with illiteracy though. That is, as you point out, creativity. "Urked" is an example of the same urk, er ilk. I do however, feel something close to despair about the fact that, for example, almost no one knows the difference between "lose" and "loose" anymore, and uses them interchangeably.

And there are many, many examples of this sort of fuzzy thinking.

But why should such a seemingly silly nothing bother me? Here's why: en todo they suggest to me that humans are becoming ever less literate as they rely on every technology besides the original one--the brain--to tell them what they think. And people who look outside themselves to know what to think do all sorts of wild and crazy things, like um, for example, standing by and not getting it while the U.S. Supreme Court decides a presidential election.

They are two different things.

Creativity--Good.
Ignorance--Bad and dangerous.

Peace,
Ange

 

[dr_mabeuse]

It's all a matter of context.

If you're a medical illustrator, then you'd better not paint paisely kidneys. If you're applying for a job, it's a good idea to follow all the conventions of standard English spelling and grammar.

But art is where everything plays and anything goes, as long as it works. And I firmly believe that words and grammar work for us; we don't work for them.

And if Steve Martin doesn't qualify as wordsmith, I would nominate James Joyce, who was known to coin a word or two in his time (as well as generally put the bone the entire concept of fiction as it was known in its day).

However, for the sake of defensing Steve Martin D) I would like to point out something he once said:

"Some people have a way with words, and other people, oh, not have way I guess."

---dr.M.

 

[Angeline]

Oh and doc? Agentrification? Huh? lo siento Perdita; I couldn't stop myself

 

[Guest]

lo siento Perdita; I couldn't stop myself

No problemo, chica. I already put virtual cotton in my mind's ears.

Perdita

 

[destinie21]

Let me start by apologizing to everyone for attempting to inject levity into the debate - I did not properly asses the seriousness of the zealotry I was facing.

Some use paint, some use moving images, some use words. If a painter "invents" a new color, they are not told they can't use it. And if a writer "develops" the perfect word to express a thought why must he bow to your concept of correctness?



Smiles everyone, smiles!

- K

Hello and welcome. As an artist and a self proclaimed word-smith I have to interject to thoughts. First off there really are no new colors just variations in hue. I can mix blue green and white all day long and in the end I have yellows and greens of various hues but yellows and greens nonetheless. I can't very well take yellow and blue and make green but try and coin it as my new and improved bleen. Well I guess I could but the idiocy in it would definitely raise some eyebrows. I'm a supporter of making up your own words or manipulating words to fit the situation. However in order to manipulate something it's necessary to have at least a basic understanding of the situation.

People who use loss and lost interchangeably are not manipulators of words. They are butchers of language. Also pronunciation has a lot to do with the misuse (nay) the abuse of words but as a person who hopes to head up her own design company I stand firmly by my convictions. I'd rather have a loss leader than have a lost leader.

 

[wornoutkeyboard]

Its a sad day....

When someone as clever as Steve Martin is shunned as a literate merely because he is funny.

Perhaps it is because I am a professional satire writer that I take offense to this.

Lest we forget that even Chaucer was a funny fellow?

Please let us not confuse having a sense of satire, humor, wit and irony for being illiterate. Otherwise I think we risk showing that we are...worse yet... ignorant.

~WOK, who is busy *XEROXING* (and yet no one shudders, because sometimes...it works.... )

 

[Guest]

Geezeluhweeze, no one "shunned" Steve Martin re. literariness; I merely thought the example didn't work (and without condecending I think him an erudite cultured person). But f you want a really literate comic try Eddie Izzard, he surpasses Martin by far (clarification: only an opinion, not a zealot's dogma).

bemusedly, Perdita

 

[wornoutkeyboard]

?

Well, if the reference to "failed logic" is not in respect to Steve Martin's literary worthiness, then where is the logic failing?

Please note that you did not take exeption to the specific example by Steve Martin, but rather the use of Steve Martin as an example:

QUOTE:
using him as an example for your argument really doesn't go far.)

If you really didn't mean that your problem was with Steve Martin, I suppose I can accept that assertation. However, at first glance you really did seem to be saying that your problem was with Kyle's use of Steve Martin's writing as an example.

~WOK, who is often satire-ish

Edited to add: Eddie Izzard is a fine comic. I still prefer Steve Martin, but I suppose it is all a matter of personal taste.

 

[Guest]

No big, WOK; let's leave it.

best, Perdita

 

[RenzaJones]

I feel as though I've stumbled into some sort of literary crucible. All of a sudden one disagreement and there's cries of zealotry
(instead of witchcraft.) I think it's been established that you can be literary and funny. Although I don't remember any one saying anything to the contrary. IMO the misuse of statements is different than the use of satire and irony. (although I might add that hardly anybody knows what true irony is.) There is absolutely no excuse for the blatant use of the words "I would of" or the confusion of the words waste and waist. If you come from a country in which English is your first language. Making up words is fine in some cases hence the emergence of slang, but misusing words out of ignorance is out. If you've got the language under control fine make it you bitch. Have it crying for mercy but for god's sake don't murder it.

 

[RenzaJones]

I feel as though I've stumbled into some sort of literary crucible. All of a sudden one disagreement and there's cries of zealotry
(instead of witchcraft.) I think it's been established that you can be literary and funny. Although I don't remember any one saying anything to the contrary. IMO the misuse of statements is different than the use of satire and irony. (although I might add that hardly anybody knows what true irony is.) There is absolutely no excuse for the blatant use of the words "I would of" or the confusion of the words waste and waist. If you come from a country in which English is your first language. Making up words is fine in some cases hence the emergence of slang, but misusing words out of ignorance is out. If you've got the language under control fine make it you bitch. Have it crying for mercy but for god's sake don't murder it.

 

[RenzaJones]

I feel as though I've stumbled into some sort of literary crucible. All of a sudden one disagreement and there's cries of zealotry
(instead of witchcraft.) I think it's been established that you can be literary and funny. Although I don't remember any one saying anything to the contrary. IMO the misuse of statements is different than the use of satire and irony. (although I might add that hardly anybody knows what true irony is.) There is absolutely no excuse for the blatant use of the words "I would of" or the confusion of the words waste and waist. If you come from a country in which English is your first language. Making up words is fine in some cases hence the emergence of slang, but misusing words out of ignorance is out. If you've got the language under control fine make it your bitch. Have it crying for mercy but for god's sake don't murder it.