Loss of respect?

[ammre]

Well staying in control while in such a submissive position can be tricky, to say the least.

For that matter though, getting a blow job can be quite submissive too. If you just lay back and take it. She's running the show.

Now you take her by the hair and dictate the pace. You're in charge.

Dunno though, penetration never appealed to me (as a receiver) Although I don't mind some oral stimuli.

auraka for the win!

this is often why you find a lit of demenaning and volence in hetero porns that involve a man's butthole. Like they'll grab the girl by the hair and smash her face into their asshole. If they just bent over and let her lick away they'd be "weak" but since they're being violent or dominating, well clearly they are manly!

poppycosh.

 

[ownedsubgal]

well i'm one of those semi old-fashioned types who does view a man who has a desire for, or enjoys actual firm anal pentration (finger, toy, strap-on) as having at the very least homoerotic tendencies. add to that i'd view it as a submissive characteristic, so i could not respect such a man and certainly could not be in a relationship with such a man.

i'm with Marquis in that chances are a man who wants to take a dildo up the bum is also going to have other undomly (which for some, like me, equates to unmanly) characteristics as well.

 

[Shankara20]

is also going to have other undomly (which for some, like me, equates to unmanly) characteristics as well.

so, do you see a male who subs in BDSM as unmanly in the non-BDSM world?

 

[ownedsubgal]

so, do you see a male who subs in BDSM as unmanly in the non-BDSM world?

well first, i don't separate the two so rigidly (BDSM or D/s and non-BDSM or D/s). but i do not view a man who submits or bottoms (or has a desire to submit or bottom) as masculine, no. very unpolitically correct i know, but what can you do, i'm a throwback. *shrug*

 

[Shankara20]

well first, i don't separate the two so rigidly (BDSM or D/s and non-BDSM or D/s). but i do not view a man who submits or bottoms (or has a desire to submit or bottom) as masculine, no. very unpolitically correct i know, but what can you do, i'm a throwback. *shrug*

Thanks for your response ownedsubgal.

I separated the two because I know some professionally very powerful and directive males who bottom in BDSM, so I was just trying to see a bit more of your view.

If you will, what attributes are needed to qualify a male as being masculine so as not to be, to use a word from another post, "unmanly"?

This is an area I am very interested in, it is helpful for me to hear the opinions of others.

 

[Marquis]

Thanks for your response ownedsubgal.

I separated the two because I know some professionally very powerful and directive males who bottom in BDSM, so I was just trying to see a bit more of your view.

If you will, what attributes are needed to qualify a male as being masculine so as not to be, to use a word from another post, "unmanly"?

This is an area I am very interested in, it is helpful for me to hear the opinions of others.

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I'd like to throw my two pennies in here if I may.

I think that defining a person as "manly" can be a confusing label because it seems to not only be a very vague description of a nebulous set of characteristics, but it also connotes a value judgment.

Do I think you're less manly because you like to dress up like a woman and suck dick?

Yeah, probably.

But it doesn't make me think less of you as a person, and I'm not just saying that.

I myself am certainly not a paragon of manliness with my over the top vanity and a few other qualities as well. My neighbors are a gay couple that have been some of my closest friends since I moved into this building a few years ago. In many respects they are way, way more manly than me.

They operate a very succesful business selling medical lasers and run their business with the kind of ambitious type-A ferocity often attributed to manly men. The top is president of our condo and runs the association like a dictatorship. The bottom of the pair is better with his hands and tools (heh heh) than anyone I've ever met, and there's been more than one occasion where I've had to call him up saying something to the effect of,

"Dude, my garbage disposal is making a weird noise and I don't know what to do! You've got to come help me!"

Sure enough, he comes on by with his toolbox and expression of smug pity on his face for the guy who couldn't even change the oil on his own car.

However, their love of huge cock makes them if not at least less "manly", a lot more gay than my stereotypical image of a "manly" man.

But at the end of the day, would I rather kick back and have a beer with my neighbors than Mike Tyson?

Fuck yeah.

So, no, I don't see subbiness as a manly quality. I don't see sucking dick as a manly activity. I think that if I was into either of these things, it would be a real problem for my girlfriends.

But being manly isn't what being a man is all about, and it has even less to do with being a good person. It can have a lot to do with whether or not certain women will want to fuck you though.

 

[Netzach]

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I'd like to throw my two pennies in here if I may.

I think that defining a person as "manly" can be a confusing label because it seems to not only be a very vague description of a nebulous set of characteristics, but it also connotes a value judgment.

Do I think you're less manly because you like to dress up like a woman and suck dick?

Yeah, probably.

But it doesn't make me think less of you as a person, and I'm not just saying that.

I myself am certainly not a paragon of manliness with my over the top vanity and a few other qualities as well. My neighbors are a gay couple that have been some of my closest friends since I moved into this building a few years ago. In many respects they are way, way more manly than me.

They operate a very succesful business selling medical lasers and run their business with the kind of ambitious type-A ferocity often attributed to manly men. The top is president of our condo and runs the association like a dictatorship. The bottom of the pair is better with his hands and tools (heh heh) than anyone I've ever met, and there's been more than one occasion where I've had to call him up saying something to the effect of,

"Dude, my garbage disposal is making a weird noise and I don't know what to do! You've got to come help me!"

Sure enough, he comes on by with his toolbox and expression of smug pity on his face for the guy who couldn't even change the oil on his own car.

However, their love of huge cock makes them if not at least less "manly", a lot more gay than my stereotypical image of a "manly" man.

But at the end of the day, would I rather kick back and have a beer with my neighbors than Mike Tyson?

Fuck yeah.

So, no, I don't see subbiness as a manly quality. I don't see sucking dick as a manly activity. I think that if I was into either of these things, it would be a real problem for my girlfriends.

But being manly isn't what being a man is all about, and it has even less to do with being a good person. It can have a lot to do with whether or not certain women will want to fuck you though.

Dude, bears.

Like, hairy burping farting motorcycle riding bears who take it up the ass at the end of the day. Stack one of these guys up against any clean shaven hetero dude and get out your masculinity meter. You and I are both suddenly shoved to one side of the spectrum a LOT simply by virtue of neither of us riding a hog or having enough chest hair to clog a drain or a blue collar job.

It also begs the question of whether or not someone could be very masculine and still submissive. In my experience, yes, there are extremely butch, powerful men who show up on the submissive end of the spectrum. Interestingly, I don't normally find them all that attractive per se, but they're out there and they seem to really work for a lot of women.

To throw a fascinating wrench in the discussion, there's the added notion that a female dominant can or can't be taken seriously if she sucks dick, takes it up the ass, or simply takes it at all. Getting fucked and retaining the power position seems to be endlessly at debate - either you think that actions are inherently D/s (I'm a coffee-grinding kind of person, does that make me a sub?) or you think that it IS in how we do that thing we do whatever it is that we express ourselves as people who prefer control or don't.

And then there are people who just don't dig that thermometer up the butt sensation most of the time, power dynamics totally aside.

 

[Marquis]

Dude, bears.

Like, hairy burping farting motorcycle riding bears who take it up the ass at the end of the day. Stack one of these guys up against any clean shaven hetero dude and get out your masculinity meter. You and I are both suddenly shoved to one side of the spectrum a LOT.

See, this is what I mean when I say that this is such a confusing concept. I don't see being fat or disgusting as being masculine, but I could see how many could.

Ideas of masculinity tend to vary tremendously in different sociological groups.

One American idea of masculinity I often find myself in opposition to is that of the male being ascetic, the strong silent type. In Haitian culture, manly men wear bright peacocky colors.

I really feel like this topic is almost too meaningless to make any really convincing statements about.

All I can say is that I understand why OSG wouldn't want a partner who wanted things stuck up his ass.

 

[Marquis]

It also begs the question of whether or not someone could be very masculine and still submissive. In my experience, yes, there are extremely butch, powerful men who show up on the submissive end of the spectrum. Interestingly, I don't normally find them all that attractive per se, but they're out there and they seem to really work for a lot of women.

Ever see Sin City? I thought Mickey Rourke's character was the perfect example of this.

To throw a fascinating wrench in the discussion, there's the added notion that a female dominant can or can't be taken seriously if she sucks dick, takes it up the ass, or simply takes it at all. Getting fucked and retaining the power position seems to be endlessly at debate - either you think that actions are inherently D/s (I'm a coffee-grinding kind of person, does that make me a sub?) or you think that it IS in how we do that thing we do whatever it is that we express ourselves as people who prefer control or don't.

Well, I could certainly understand if a male sub didn't want a domme taking it up the ass, but I'm sure there are just as many for whom a domme that doesn't take it in the ass is a dealbreaker.

Not really an issue for me.

However, once I did get rejected from hooking up with a sub I met because I told her I'm not a big fan of eating pussy. She said she couldn't understand how a real dominant wouldn't want to take control over a woman in that way.

 

[Netzach]

Ever see Sin City? I thought Mickey Rourke's character was the perfect example of this.

Haha, yeah, I think you are right!

However, once I did get rejected from hooking up with a sub I met because I told her I'm not a big fan of eating pussy. She said she couldn't understand how a real dominant wouldn't want to take control over a woman in that way.

Why can't people grow up and be honest?

"I really like getting eaten out, sorry, kinda need that sexually." instead of "you're not a real Dom" bullshit. If anyone told me I wasn't a real Domme because I don't suck dick more than once in a while when the mood overrtakes me, I'd still be laughing, and so would most people.

 

[Shankara20]

But being manly isn't what being a man is all about, and it has even less to do with being a good person. It can have a lot to do with whether or not certain women will want to fuck you though.

I see your points, and we have much common ground. You and I have seen any number of threads here trying to sort this out. I have stepped into some of those looking for a rumble, but not this time.

The concern that drove me to even get into this discussions is what I read into the OP's first statement. I could see someone who is straight, enjoys playing with his ass and concerned about being a "real man" having problems resolving all those issues in a way that would allow him to fuck females, see himself a "man" and poke his own ass now-and-then if it makes him happy.

I, personally, have no doubts about my own masculinity. But I'm not interested in fucking women at this time , so I guess that makes me a man's man.

Thanks for your thoughts

 

[Shankara20]

She said she couldn't understand how a real dominant wouldn't want to take control over a woman in that way.

A little topping from the bottom from a Sammy?

She would not deserve a spanking in my book....

 

[subtleone]

I think...

...that I hold no merit in the stereotypical view of masculinity, or femininity, for that matter apart, maybe, from an aesthetic point of view.

I would be more attracted to someone that knew their own mind and what it is they want/like.

Auraka mentioned pink shirts earlier which is a good analogy, I'd much rather submit to a 'Pink Shirted' Dom than a 'Packhound'.

Shankara I have much respect for you for knowing your own mind and following the path you want.

I think that the whole argument is pretty much irrelevant in the BDSM context though. As has been mentioned quite often, submissives (male and female) are frequently very strong, intelligent, sometimes powerful people who like to neutralise the effects of their 'working' life. If they want to take part in a bit of anal who cares?

Just as an aside...does it make me any less feminine if I enjoy play sessions with another female?

 

[Etoile]

well i'm one of those semi old-fashioned types who does view a man who has a desire for, or enjoys actual firm anal pentration (finger, toy, strap-on) as having at the very least homoerotic tendencies. add to that i'd view it as a submissive characteristic, so i could not respect such a man and certainly could not be in a relationship with such a man.

i'm with Marquis in that chances are a man who wants to take a dildo up the bum is also going to have other undomly (which for some, like me, equates to unmanly) characteristics as well.

osg has a really firm standpoint on this issue, and she can explain it very well. We had a conversation about gender and dominance recently, and even if she and I don't agree - her opinion is definitely worth a listen.

My opinion is that sex acts are not masculine or feminine...they just are what they are. It's only homoerotic if it's being done by another guy. Otherwise, one could say that a man fucking a woman in the ass was homoerotic, simply because anal sex was taking place, and anal is a homoerotic act, period. Does that really make sense? Not to me. Anal sex is not homoerotic, no matter whose ass is involved...it's just an act. Anal sex between two men is homoerotic, because they are both men. Anal sex between a man and a woman is a straight sex act, no matter whose butt is getting poked.

Do I think you're less manly because you like to dress up like a woman and suck dick?

Yeah, probably.

But it doesn't make me think less of you as a person, and I'm not just saying that.

I really like this.

 

[Auraka6669]

osg has a really firm standpoint on this issue, and she can explain it very well. We had a conversation about gender and dominance recently, and even if she and I don't agree - her opinion is definitely worth a listen.

My opinion is that sex acts are not masculine or feminine...they just are what they are. It's only homoerotic if it's being done by another guy. Otherwise, one could say that a man fucking a woman in the ass was homoerotic, simply because anal sex was taking place, and anal is a homoerotic act, period. Does that really make sense? Not to me. Anal sex is not homoerotic, no matter whose ass is involved...it's just an act. Anal sex between two men is homoerotic, because they are both men. Anal sex between a man and a woman is a straight sex act, no matter whose butt is getting poked.

I really like this.

Thank you.

Really it's moot, but yeah. This is good stuff IMO.

 

[wynnie]

OMG..... what are they talking about... I would never associate the two.. You either respect a person or you dont... simple as that.. It would never change my respect for the person.... That is kind of like saying if a woman likes anul penetration then they would respect her less.. it is the same in my humble opinion.

 

[Kailey_86]

i wouldn't connect the two either. i actually think that a guy deserves more respect if he is able to do things that are more feminine. It shows me that they are confident and comfortable with their masculinity. They don't need to prove that they are a man. If something feels good, why not do it?

If a man wants to just sit there and let his sub lick away at his ass or give him a blowjob, i don't think that makes him less manly or Domly either. If that is what he wants, that is what he gets. He doesn't have to physically take control of his sub to dominate her.

 

[Auraka6669]

i wouldn't connect the two either. i actually think that a guy deserves more respect if he is able to do things that are more feminine. It shows me that they are confident and comfortable with their masculinity. They don't need to prove that they are a man. If something feels good, why not do it?

If a man wants to just sit there and let his sub lick away at his ass or give him a blowjob, i don't think that makes him less manly or Domly either. If that is what he wants, that is what he gets. He doesn't have to physically take control of his sub to dominate her.

I will pause to clarify an earlier post.

Well staying in control while in such a submissive position can be tricky, to say the least.

For that matter though, getting a blow job can be quite submissive too. If you just lay back and take it. She's running the show.

Now you take her by the hair and dictate the pace. You're in charge.

Dunno though, penetration never appealed to me (as a receiver) Although I don't mind some oral stimuli.

The bolded bit is what's important. The rest is just an example, and my position on the subject. That is to say, it's not the only way to stay in charge.

Ok I think I've tossed a nickels worth in here. Back to lurking.

 

[Kailey_86]

I will pause to clarify an earlier post.



The bolded bit is what's important. The rest is just an example, and my position on the subject. That is to say, it's not the only way to stay in charge.

Ok I think I've tossed a nickels worth in here. Back to lurking.

i know. i was just saying what i thought about that example.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Thanks for your response ownedsubgal.

I separated the two because I know some professionally very powerful and directive males who bottom in BDSM, so I was just trying to see a bit more of your view.

If you will, what attributes are needed to qualify a male as being masculine so as not to be, to use a word from another post, "unmanly"?

This is an area I am very interested in, it is helpful for me to hear the opinions of others.

Shankara, that's actually a difficult question to answer. it's kind of like, i know a "manly" man when i see one, but i couldn't really give a clear description of one. but, i'll try my best....first, i would say that a masculine man would have no submissive qualities/personality traits. He would not live to please and serve others. He would also have no "bottom" qualities...such as the often-used examples of the powerful CEO who is take charge and aggressive in the workplace, and in his free time is some prodommes boot licker and spankee. He need not be fat and hairy, or alcoholic and abusive, or love football. He need not be "a" Dominant...however he will have at least some dominant-type personality traits. He can handle his own. He will not let a woman walk all over him (literally or figuratively). He doesn't punk out in scary/dangerous situations. basically, he comes correct. and he most certainly does not take phallic-like objects up the bum.

however i have to say i agree with Marquis yet again, in that a man must not be what i consider masculine in order to have or keep my respect. i can respect a strap-on loving, high-heel wearing, people-pleasing, submissive male very much as a person, however i will not respect him as a Man.

 

[Etoile]

osg, can I ask - how do you feel about women who may hold high-powered CEO jobs, but are very submissive outside the workplace?

 

[ownedsubgal]

good question Etoile. i guess that would depend on the particular woman and circumstance. but i suppose you're asking if i would think of her as less womanly/feminine? if she was very efficient at her high-powered job, and for the most part even enjoyed it, then i would not describe that woman as submissive, regardless of how she behaved outside of the workplace. however a woman needn't be submissive to fit my idea of feminine (although that certainly helps). now if she was aggressive in the workplace, ruled with an iron fist so to speak, intimidated her employees, etc., then that is someone i would describe as unfeminine, even if outside of work she behaved submissively.

 

[Shankara20]

however i will not respect him as a Man.

thanks for your answer

 

[Netzach]

good question Etoile. i guess that would depend on the particular woman and circumstance. but i suppose you're asking if i would think of her as less womanly/feminine? if she was very efficient at her high-powered job, and for the most part even enjoyed it, then i would not describe that woman as submissive, regardless of how she behaved outside of the workplace. however a woman needn't be submissive to fit my idea of feminine (although that certainly helps). now if she was aggressive in the workplace, ruled with an iron fist so to speak, intimidated her employees, etc., then that is someone i would describe as unfeminine, even if outside of work she behaved submissively.

That's someone I would describe as an asshole.

With or without a cock.

 

[Shankara20]

That's someone I would describe as an asshole.

With or without a cock.

Are you using the word "asshole" here as a pejorative?
There are times I use that word as a term of endearment.

But then I like my asshole.
*sounds of me ducking under my desk*