Nine Levels of Submission

[Pure]

Hi Eb and others,

The site mentioned by Eb (esubmissive) is one of several who ripped off the author of the original, without credit. I assume Eb is unaware of this. The author's name is Diane Vera. The list originally appeared in a book by Pat Califia,
© 1984 and 1988, Diane Vera, published in The Lesbian S/M Safety Manual.

Here is a link that has permission to reproduce, in case anyone wants to see the un-altered original. (Many rip-off folks have made improvements, and even created a corresponding 'dom' list, without mentioning the original author.)

http://www.leatherquest.com/education/nine.htm

Perhaps someone should write to 'esub' and let her know; she may be unwitting, too.

The list was posted here a few months back, though I don't have the link handy.

 

[Ebonyfire]

I am aware

and the second link I posted ( on the levels of dominance thread) gives her credit and has her copyright. Thanks Pure!

Eb




Hi Eb and others,
Ebony
The site mentioned by Eb (esubmissive) is one of several who ripped off the author of the original, without credit. I assume Eb is unaware of this. The author's name is Diane Vera. The list originally appeared in a book by Pat Califia,
© 1984 and 1988, Diane Vera, published in The Lesbian S/M Safety Manual.

Here is a link that has permission to reproduce, in case anyone wants to see the un-altered original. (Many rip-off folks have made improvements, and even created a corresponding 'dom' list, without mentioning the original author.)

http://www.leatherquest.com/education/nine.htm

Perhaps someone should write to 'esub' and let her know; she may be unwitting, too.

The list was posted here a few months back, though I don't have the link handy.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: I am aware

Hmmmmm, looks like I copied the uncredited one for the dominance thread too.

Eb

and the second link I posted ( on the levels of dominance thread) gives her credit and has her copyright. Thanks Pure!

Eb




Hi Eb and others,
Ebony
The site mentioned by Eb (esubmissive) is one of several who ripped off the author of the original, without credit. I assume Eb is unaware of this. The author's name is Diane Vera. The list originally appeared in a book by Pat Califia,
© 1984 and 1988, Diane Vera, published in The Lesbian S/M Safety Manual.

Here is a link that has permission to reproduce, in case anyone wants to see the un-altered original. (Many rip-off folks have made improvements, and even created a corresponding 'dom' list, without mentioning the original author.)

http://www.leatherquest.com/education/nine.htm

Perhaps someone should write to 'esub' and let her know; she may be unwitting, too.

The list was posted here a few months back, though I don't have the link handy.

 

[Ebonyfire]

I have emailed leatherquest

so we shall see what they say.

Eb

 

[Pure]

Hi Eb,
I glad we're going to give Ms Vera her due. A google search (Vera, degrees of submission) gives several sites with permision, and many with some local person's plagiarism.

Note,
So far as I can tell, the second list of degrees of domination is not from Vera. It's a later hack job--I don't know who first did it-- performing the simple task of applying mostly her exact words and phrases from the 'levels of submission' list, and turning them around, as it were.

It's not hard of course to see corresponding degrees of domination; I'd say, if you're happy with a sub of degree X, then you are, with that person at least, a dom/me of that degree.

 

[petrel]

I voted true sub, non-slave as being the most common state of mind for me - sometimes it moves to true sub play slave. I am highly uncomfortable with the concept of 'slave' in anything other than the most consensual play.

Slavery to me is and always will be wrong - the idea that someone gets pleasure from holding the power of life, death and everything about how and when someone else lives is abhorrent.

I realise this will not be a popular sentiment here but it is how I feel - I am not trying to put anyone down for the relationship they have chosen but I cannot comprehend how giving up the rights and freedoms that every thinking being should fight for and value can be a good thing.

I would like to try and understand though - I apologise for hijacking the thread and as this might be a contentious issue maybe anyone with comments could Pm or e-mail me to discuss this and educate me?

 

[Ebonyfire]

I voted true sub, non-slave as being the most common state of mind for me - sometimes it moves to true sub play slave. I am highly uncomfortable with the concept of 'slave' in anything other than the most consensual play.

Slavery to me is and always will be wrong - the idea that someone gets pleasure from holding the power of life, death and everything about how and when someone else lives is abhorrent.

I realise this will not be a popular sentiment here but it is how I feel - I am not trying to put anyone down for the relationship they have chosen but I cannot comprehend how giving up the rights and freedoms that every thinking being should fight for and value can be a good thing.

I would like to try and understand though - I apologise for hijacking the thread and as this might be a contentious issue maybe anyone with comments could Pm or e-mail me to discuss this and educate me?

A lot of people hold the same views as you do Petrel. I am african american and the use of the term does not bother me one bit, nor does it bother my subs/slaves.

No one should have to justifly their use of certain terminology used in their own relationships. Live and let live, to each his or her own. YMMV.

Glad to see you posting.

Eb

 

[petrel]

Thank you for responding Ebony - and thanks for the welcome!

I really hope I didn't come across as judgemental of others lifestyles on here - I wait to see what others have to say.

 

[zipman]

Just BUMPing up a good topic

 

[Ebonyfire]

Thank you for responding Ebony - and thanks for the welcome!

I really hope I didn't come across as judgemental of others lifestyles on here - I wait to see what others have to say.

I do not think so. YOu just stated your opinion. I for one did not see you as coming off judgmental.

One thing I have noticed in the lifestyle, is that the use of the term "slave" bothers more caucasions than it does black americans. Hmm, just an observation.

Ebony

 

[naaki]

It _is_ an interesting question. Do you mean uncomfortable with the word slave in reference to themselves or in reference to their submissive friends?

I do not think so. YOu just stated your opinion. I for one did not see you as coming off judgmental.

One thing I have noticed in the lifestyle, is that the use of the term "slave" bothers more caucasions than it does black americans. Hmm, just an observation.

Ebony

 

[naaki]

for myself, i'm a full on submissive daydreamer

 

[naaki]

with a twist

 

[bunny bondage]

i picked consensual total slave with no limits. i almost picked the full time live in option, but i don't actually live with Him, so that didn't seem to apply. i really do consider myself His, completly, but i guess the "no limits" bit isn't entirely true. i wouldn't go down on a sheep or cut off my breasts, but i have a very broad range of things i'll do for Him. He's even talked about a mmf threesome, and while i'm REALLY hesitant about this, i'd do it if He arranged it and explained that there was nothing lasting between the third party and us. and sure, sometimes i find it a little hard to deal with the psycological torture i'm put through, but deep down i love it and really enjoy exploring and pushing my limits. besides, i should have expected things like that since He's such an intelligent man. controling my body AND my mind makes me even more His. so in short, i think the more accurate answer to "what kind of sub are you" is just:

full time slave

 

[Richard49]

I thought i would bump this out of old times.

 

[Ebonyfire]

True Submissive-Non Slaves Still Rule

It looks like all you true submissives that are not slaves still rule the roost.

What about any of you new folks? Do you see yourself fitting somewhere?

 

[Richard49]

I am on a shelf gather dust.

Oh you were asking the new people

 

[WynEternal]

It has been three years since *sigh* but I was the Full Time Live In Consentual Slave. Hub hopes that we can become Full Time Live in Consentual Switch. But even though I consider myself sometimes a switch, I know that deep down, it will take a special person who will let me take pride in my submission again.

 

[Violane]

I voted Part-Time Consensual, Real Slave, because of the way my life is right now it can't be full time.

 

[Pure]

Richard,

I was sorry you bumped this thread. One cant' really talk those labels Eb posted without knowing the author, Diane Vera's descriptions. Imo, without any ill intentions, the thread got off to a bad start, and the lack was never made good.

For any who want to see the original descriptions, in the original author's words, check,

http://www.leatherquest.com/education/nine.htm

She is and was an experienced and articulate spokesperson on bdsm.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Richard,

I was sorry you bumped this thread. One cant' really talk those labels Eb posted without knowing the author, Diane Vera's descriptions. Imo, without any ill intentions, the thread got off to a bad start, and the lack was never made good.

For any who want to see the original descriptions, in the original author's words, check,

http://www.leatherquest.com/education/nine.htm

She is and was an experienced and articulate spokesperson on bdsm.

Pure as usual you are mistaken.

I did not post this without knowing the author's Diana Vera's descriptions. You are a liar. In fact, I pointed out that I used just one of the web site's that discussed the descriptions. Do not try to discredit me with your bullshit. I am not stupid. I find your statements highly offensive.



Eb

 

[Ebonyfire]

This is a good thread

contrary to Pures' opinions.

There are at least 10 websites that refer to this chart. I chose one of them because you can read the writing. The author is easliy given credit on any of the websites that are there. I did post 2 of them.

So you are all free to read them or not read them. It is up to you.

Next time Pure, do not try to tell others about the thoughts in my head. A) you do not know me well enough, and B) you are not qualified to do so even if you could.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: This is a good thread

contrary to Pures' opinions.

There are at least 10 websites that refer to this chart. I chose one of them because you can read the writing. The author is easliy given credit on any of the websites that are there. I did post 2 of them.

So you are all free to read them or not read them. It is up to you.

Next time Pure, do not try to tell others about the thoughts in my head. A) you do not know me well enough, and B) you are not qualified to do so even if you could.

If MissT thinks the thread is out of line, she will remove it.

 

[calypso_21]

Re: This is a good thread

So you are all free to read them or not read them. It is up to you.

Read 'em. Thanks for posting this thread Eb! I found it an interesting read.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: This is a good thread

Read 'em. Thanks for posting this thread Eb! I found it an interesting read.

There are at least 10 websites, and most of them had the author's name and the copyright. Pure made a big deal out of it, when in reality there were several sites that gave her as the author.