Nine Levels of Submission

[Pure]

Eb 'n all,

I was slightly unclear when I said, though it was entirely true as intended.

Eb misread, so I'll clarify.


I was sorry you bumped this thread. One cant' really talk those labels Eb posted without knowing the author, Diane Vera's descriptions. Imo, without any ill intentions, the thread got off to a bad start, and the lack was never made good.

What I meant to say was that Eb posted the labels without letting the readers know how they might learn of her, DV's original descriptions. Hence readers were not in a good position to talk 'without knowing' those descriptions.

I stand by my statement that this situation got the thread off to a bad start, since most people clearly did not ever find out what's involved in the labels they pinned on themselves. Eb had not provided, at the beginning of the thread, a way for them to find out.

Indeed, nowhere in the first page of this thread is there now a working link, provided by Eb, to the original material. Again it's unfortunate it was resurrected.

Eb does commit an oversight or error occasionally, but I'm one of those who believe she's a wonderfully honest and forthright person.

I hope this clarifies things.

J.

 

[MissTaken]

Good thread

Good links

Not the first time I have read Diane Vera, methinks.

The nine levels of submission are great thinker reading. It gives creedence to all submissives regardless of their kinks or the depth to which they give themselves to a Dominant. It is certainly a handy tool when trying to bring a unit of people who are as eclectic as the stars to a point by which all can respect the other, regardless of their personal choices.

Also, I first ran across this a year and a half ago. I found it fascinating then, before having fully entered the lifestyle RT and then, said the same that I do now, based on limited experience and mostly fantasy... I was a 7, then and remain a 7.

With daydreams of more.....

Interesting to note that the experience has neither lessened or increased the level to which I submit. However, the desire and need is far greater, or is it simply better understood?

 

[MissTaken]

[/B][/QUOTE] There is now a working link to the Nine Levels of Submission in the first post.

I have also taken care of some housekeeping and hope that we can return to the topic at hand as the conversation that should result from it could be very interesting for many.

MissT

Eb 'n all,

I was slightly unclear when I said, though it was entirely true as intended.

Eb misread, so I'll clarify.


I was sorry you bumped this thread. One cant' really talk those labels Eb posted without knowing the author, Diane Vera's descriptions. Imo, without any ill intentions, the thread got off to a bad start, and the lack was never made good.

What I meant to say was that Eb posted the labels without letting the readers know how they might learn of her, DV's original descriptions. Hence readers were not in a good position to talk 'without knowing' those descriptions.

I stand by my statement that this situation got the thread off to a bad start, since most people clearly did not ever find out what's involved in the labels they pinned on themselves. Eb had not provided, at the beginning of the thread, a way for them to find out.

Indeed, nowhere in the first page of this thread is there now a working link, provided by Eb, to the original material. Again it's unfortunate it was resurrected.

Eb does commit an oversight or error occasionally, but I'm one of those who believe she's a wonderfully honest and forthright person.

I hope this clarifies things.

J.

 

[Netzach]

When I was in the bottoming racket, I was a 5, 5 1/2 on a very submissive day. And never for very long, I'm afraid.

I like sixes, but the long term version. I like to be in live out occasional relationships with sevens, play with four. five, six.

Conflating the duration/seriousness of a relationship with the kind of submission in it was always a pet peeve of mine.

 

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

Thanks for the Bump. Interesting reading. Thanks for the Original Eb


I fall out into the True Sub, Non-Slave group; although I have my True Sub, Play Slave moments. I have been experimenting a bit with switching now and then as well LOL. Ain't Life grand?

-Anelize

 

[catalina_francisco]

This is one I was looking for last week, but it wasn't listed in the library and the search function wasn't helping...so for those who were interested, here it is.

Catalina

 

[chelleb]

...............

 

[His_pita]

Full Time Live In Consensual Slave is what I picked. I'm in the process of reading SlaveCraft by Guy Baldwin, which has been helping me focus on what I do consider my lifestyle "label."

I would actually call myself a unconditional slave because my dom and I have the same limits so there is no longer a need for consent. Of course, something new could pop up and then there might be a condition. We are also in a Daddy/lg which adds a nice element to our D/s.

 

[EmpressFi]

I dont know what I am but I did ask Master how he'd categorize me..he said.. if we lived together I'd be a "Full Time Live In Consensual Slave" so.. since we live apart.. I'm just a Full Time Consensual Slave..

you know.. it doesnt matter what label gets placed on me... all that matters to me is that he calls me "Mine"

 

[the_pet]

Full Time Live In Consensual Slave here....


pet

 

[catalina_francisco]

Hmmm, we voted on this in the past, but didn't post so for us I am a Consensual Total Slave with no limits. It has it's rocky days and its diamonds, but is where our hearts are.

Catalina

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

All links in this thread had expired.....

The Nine Levels of Submission


The following isn't intended as a rigid classification. It was written by Diane Vera and published in The Lesbian S/M Safety Manual, edited by Pat Califia, from Lace/Alyson Press, Boston, 1988, reissued 1990 (still in print).

Within the S/M subculture, different people use the words "submissive and slave" to mean many different things. When submissives say "I want to be your slave," sometimes they mean only that they want to be tied up and whipped. Many professional dominants routinely refer to their (usually _not_ very genuinely submissive clients) as "slaves." At the other extreme, there are people who want to be full-time personal servants, and who truly want to exist solely for their Dom(me)'s use, pleasure and convenience. And there are many shades in between these two extremes.

1.THE OUTRIGHT NON-SUBMISSIVE MASOCHIST or KINKY SENSUALIST.Not into servitude, humiliation or giving up control; just pain and/or spiced-up sensuality, on the masochist's own terms and for the masochist's own direct pleasure (i.e. turned on solely/mainly by one's own bodily sensatons rather than by being "used" to gratify one's partner's sadism).

2.PSEUDO-SUBMISSIVE NON-SLAVE. Not into even playing "slave," but into other "submissive" role-playing, e.g. schoolteacher scenes, infantilism, "forced" transvestism. Usually into humiliation, but NOT into servitude, even in play. Dictates the scene to a large degree.

3.PSEUDO-SUBMISSIVE PLAY SLAVE. Likes to play at being a slave; likes to feel subservient; may in some cases like to feel one is being "used" to gratify partner's sadism; may even really serve the dominant in some ways, but only on the "slave's" own terms. Dictates the scene to a large degree; often fetishistic (e.g. foot worshippers).

.TRUE SUBMISSIVE NON-SLAVE. Really gives up control (only temporarily and within agreed-upon limits), but gets her/his main satisfaction from aspects of submission other than serving or being used by the dominant. Usually turned on by suspense, vulnerability, and/or giving up responsbility. Doesn't dictate the scene except in very general terms, but still seek mainly her/his own direct/pleasure (rather than getting one's pleasure mainly from pleasing the dominant).

5.TRUE SUBMISSIVE PLAY SLAVE. Really gives up control (though only temporarily; only during brief "scenes" and within limits) and gets main satisfaction from serving/being used by dominant-but only for FUN purposes, usually erotic. May/may not be into pain. If so, is turned on by pain indirectly, i.e. enjoys being the object of one's partner's sadism, on which the submissive places very few requirements or restrictions.

6.UNCOMMITTED SHORT-TERM BUT MORE THAN PLAY SEMI-SLAVE. Really gives up control (usually within limits); wants to serve and be used by the dominant; wants to provide practical/non erotic as well as fun/erotic services; but only when the "slave" is in the mood. May even act as a full-time slave for, say, several days at a time, but is free to quit at any time (or at the end of the agreed upon several days). May or may not have long-term relationship with one's Mistress, but, either way, the "slave" has the final say over when she will serve.

7.PART-TIME CONSENSUAL-BUT REAL SLAVE. Has an ongoing commitment to an owner/slave relationship and regards oneself as the dominant's property at all times. Wants to obey and please dom(me) in all aspects of life-practical/non erotic and fun/erotic. Devotes most of time to other commitments (e.g. job) but Dom(me) has first pick of the slave's free time.

8.FULL-TIME LIVE IN CONSENSUAL SLAVE. Within no more than a few broad limits/requirements, the slave regards herself/himself as existing solely for the Dom(me)'s pleasure/well being. Slave in turn expects to be regarded as a prized possession. Not much different from the situation of the traditional housewife, except that within the S/M world the slave's position is more likely to be fully consensual, especially of the slave is male. Within the S/M world, a full time "slave" arrangement is entered into with an explicit awareness of the magnitude carefully, with more awareness of the magnitude of power that is being given up, and hence is usually entered into much more carefully, with more awareness of the possible dangers, and with much clearer and more specific agreements than usually precede the traditional marriage.

9.CONSENSUAL TOTAL SLAVE WITH NO LIMITS. A common fantasy ideal which probably doesn't exist in real life (except in authoritarian religious cults and other situations where the "consent" is induced by brainwashing and/or social or economic pressures, and hence isn't fully consensual). A few S/M purists will insist that you aren't really a slave unless you're willing to do absolutely anything for your Dom(me), with no limits at all. I've met a few people who claimed to be no-limit slaves, but in all cases I have reason to doubt the claim.

Copyright 1984 and 1988, Diane Vera Sourced at Link

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

Okay, now I have finished playing secretary of Lit ( actually lets call it a service call in ongoing respect for Eb Ma'am ) and had a chance to digest the 9 options and have decided that I don't like the list. The set of 'attributes' that I most strongly identify with offers a classification/title/label that I am not prepared to accept. This is quite unsettling.

 

[catalina_francisco]

LOL, I do always get the impression the person who wrote this list complete with detailed description of the roles doesn't fully understand some of the roles they mention, as in no lomits. As many who are new to D/s assume, I take it they are assuming 'no limits' means no limits for both Dom/me and sub instead of understanding it means the limits are set by the PYL, and hence the pyl abides by those limits, not any nonsensical thing any outsider can dream up for sensational value to try and prove the impossibility of it as a realistic role.

Catalina

 

[Bandit58]

Okay, now I have finished playing secretary of Lit ( actually lets call it a service call in ongoing respect for Eb Ma'am ) and had a chance to digest the 9 options and have decided that I don't like the list. The set of 'attributes' that I most strongly identify with offers a classification/title/label that I am not prepared to accept. This is quite unsettling.

I identify with bits and pieces of two or three options but I also don't agree that I'm a slave.....both unsettling and confusing

I guess I'll just have to say that Master is happy with me the way I am and we have no need for labels

 

[northwoods_sub]

Okay after looking at the options I decided I am either a 5 or a 7. My life outside the home is so hectic that I sometimes forget to take off the academic superwoman hat and put on the submissive slave hat when I get home.

I still don't like the term slave though. Makes me feel subhuman.