Okay, guys, here's a thread to air your views on voting

[butters]

right, i moved...

all those comments pertaining to this discussion here - and i didn't quite get it right as it appears as theo being the person to make the thread - but ... well, it works, anyway


be my guests.

and let's face it, there's often something worth saying about voting; now you've a place to do it whilst keeping the review thread clean at the same time

 

[GuiltyPleasure]

IMO a poet can get more help, satisfaction, improvement, honesty from the comments - the "votes" mean nothing, nada, zilch! Add to this that, failing a glitch, comments are for keeps. For almost two years I had votes turned off because it really doesn't mean anything to me WHAT votes I get and we were going through the same complaints from a different poet.

Word of advise to you, theognis. Posting irritation here where the public can see just draws attention to your perceived plight. Unfortinately it also attracts the uni-bombers.....Best to hash things out in private.

 

[butters]

i'm going to weigh in, here, with my own opinion about voting - and that's what we're all entirely free to do, voice opinions and vote as we see fit, regardless or not of how the recipient views the votes:

you all vote as you please; for me, a poem has to be really strong to warrant a 5. if i vote a 5 when it only feels a 3 or a 4 to me, then i'm not being honest. i can vote a 3 and take the time to point out to the poem's author the reasons why i chose that vote. fairly, and making it about the write rather than the writer. to award 5's too easily is, for me, almost as damaging, devaluing the value of the vote and one's integrity BUT i see how discretional awards of 5's in the spirit of encouragement can also keep newbies writing where a mass of 2's and 3's on first poems might dissuade them from continuing, especially if no comments as to the whys and wherefores are forthcoming from those dropping the votes! THIS is one reason why we all need to vote the way that feels right to us as individuals, as overall it will create a more balanced score, a more balanced forum.

i have, on occasion, voted a 2 - the poem has to suck pretty bad in my eyes to warrant a 2. i have given only one 1 (if memory serves me well, and i think it does), and that was for a truly appalling piece of drivel. of course, what makes something appalling drivel to me, might not be the yardstick ANY one else measures it, and some might really enjoy the write.

i don't believe votes should be used tactically to affect an otherwise 'healthy' rating (or to boost a low scoring piece only worthy of those figures), but life is life and this sort of thing happens. and then again, some people will simply think the piece is shit and vote accordingly.

people's comments will almost always be of more value to the writer than any scoring system. some of my pieces, ones i consider better than others, have received overall lower ratings than ones i feel aren't so good but have a 5 through the single vote of one sweet voter!

in other words, perspective is a wonderful thing to harness, and honesty's the name of the game from mine!

 

[theognis]

And one more point on this and then I'm going to shut up on the subject. When I was in college some people referrred to something called the "gentleman's C," meaning that a caring professor would never give anyone less than a C because this is the way we are supposed to act in polite company, right? I think that's an awful idea. If I'm doing something right I appreciate people pointing it out to me. If I'm failing at something, I want to know that too. If everyone gives fives all the time then five is meaningless, sort of like the point of your koan, Theogis. I never give less than a four because I don't comment on poems I see as worth less than at least a four. But I would never ever give a score or make a comment that just says something kind or happy because it's the polite thing to do. That, to me, is antithetical to the whole idea of feedback or judging. My politeness is equivalent to if you have nothing good to say, say nothing. Beyond that, I'm always going with honest. And that is the context within which I choose to score and critique. If I make a comment that says something isn't working it's because I think it can be fixed to make a better piece of writing.

I have no problem with the way you've commented and voted on my poems. It was polite, considerate, and helpful. I was fine with it, even when you gave me fours. If Fridayam had conducted himself the way you have, there would have been no complaint from me. It was his nasty attitude and ill intent that pissed me off.

I don't see giving five or nothing as making all things mountains, by the way. If everyone voted fives or nothing, which I'm not recommending, it would be clear which poems gained the most approval, and which did not.

I never commented or voted on any poem I thought had little or no merit. I will admit I gave fives on some that weren't as good as others. As I've said before, I wish the voting system were based on 100 in increments of ten, instead of on five in increments of twenty. Some of my votes would have been nines, if that option had been available.

Let's face it, this has been a tempest in a teapot. It's certainly not a mountain. I'm going to remain silent on the matter, at this point.

 

[theognis]

IMO a poet can get more help, satisfaction, improvement, honesty from the comments - the "votes" mean nothing, nada, zilch! Add to this that, failing a glitch, comments are for keeps. For almost two years I had votes turned off because it really doesn't mean anything to me WHAT votes I get and we were going through the same complaints from a different poet.

Word of advise to you, theognis. Posting irritation here where the public can see just draws attention to your perceived plight. Unfortinately it also attracts the uni-bombers.....Best to hash things out in private.

I tried the private route first, despite the initial insult being public. Okay, now I'm going to try to let this drop.

 

[Angeline]

I have no problem with the way you've commented and voted on my poems. It was polite, considerate, and helpful. I was fine with it, even when you gave me fours. If Fridayam had conducted himself the way you have, there would have been no complaint from me. It was his nasty attitude and ill intent that pissed me off.

I don't see giving five or nothing as making all things mountains, by the way. If everyone voted fives or nothing, which I'm not recommending, it would be clear which poems gained the most approval, and which did not.

I never commented or voted on any poem I thought had little or no merit. I will admit I gave fives on some that weren't as good as others. As I've said before, I wish the voting system were based on 100 in increments of ten, instead of on five in increments of twenty. Some of my votes would have been nines, if that option had been available.

Let's face it, this has been a tempest in a teapot. It's certainly not a mountain. I'm going to remain silent on the matter, at this point.

Okay, but my point wasn't that it's a mountain but like a koan: if everyone gets a five, no one gets a five. If there's no scale how do you know you're rated on one? That was what I meant. In any case I'm more interested in writing and talking about poems.

 

[theognis]

Okay, but my point wasn't that it's a mountain but like a koan: if everyone gets a five, no one gets a five. If there's no scale how do you know you're rated on one? That was what I meant. In any case I'm more interested in writing and talking about poems.

Everyone doesn't get a five. Some get nothing. No reaction. No vote. No comment.

 

[Angeline]

Everyone doesn't get a five. Some get nothing. No reaction. No vote. No comment.

That's fine, too.

 

[theognis]

That's fine, too.

I agree. And I think that says plenty.

 

[butters]

as i said before, all of us should do it our own way - it'll balance out more or less in the end. the thing is, though, theo, if we don't offer feedback to those poets about poems that are poor but have a kernel to improve upon, how will that writer ever gain any insight as to how to improve their writing?

to only offer kudos to those works/writers that are pretty damned good already means we're not helping someone else struggling to start out. of course, not everyone will want constructive crit - and i won't waste my own time on those who're perfectly happy churning out what i consider awful with no intention of trying to get any better.

for me, trying to offer something back to newer writers is a bit like me paying back a little debt - one i ran up as a newbie, where others tried to offer me helpful advice.

 

[theognis]

as i said before, all of us should do it our own way - it'll balance out more or less in the end. the thing is, though, theo, if we don't offer feedback to those poets about poems that are poor but have a kernel to improve upon, how will that writer ever gain any insight as to how to improve their writing?

to only offer kudos to those works/writers that are pretty damned good already means we're not helping someone else struggling to start out. of course, not everyone will want constructive crit - and i won't waste my own time on those who're perfectly happy churning out what i consider awful with no intention of trying to get any better.

for me, trying to offer something back to newer writers is a bit like me paying back a little debt - one i ran up as a newbie, where others tried to offer me helpful advice.

I have offered suggestions, on occasion, even when voting a five. I don't consider voting a five means I think the poem is perfect.

I hesitate to offer much criticism. You know, glass houses and all.

There's constructive criticism, and destructive criticism.

 

[Angeline]

as i said before, all of us should do it our own way - it'll balance out more or less in the end. the thing is, though, theo, if we don't offer feedback to those poets about poems that are poor but have a kernel to improve upon, how will that writer ever gain any insight as to how to improve their writing?

to only offer kudos to those works/writers that are pretty damned good already means we're not helping someone else struggling to start out. of course, not everyone will want constructive crit - and i won't waste my own time on those who're perfectly happy churning out what i consider awful with no intention of trying to get any better.

for me, trying to offer something back to newer writers is a bit like me paying back a little debt - one i ran up as a newbie, where others tried to offer me helpful advice.

Helping is good for me because when I teach I learn and I also owe karmic favors for help I've received from others, a paying it forward kinda thing.

And it's exciting to meet other people who love poetry. When I don't have that in my life to some degree, I'm less inspired and ultimately less happy.

But comments and feedback and scores? It's like free speech: the priviledge of having it means that sometimes I will hear things that I disagree with or worse don't like or even find disburbing. It's all part of the package.

 

[theognis]

Helping is good for me because when I teach I learn and I also owe karmic favors for help I've received from others, a paying it forward kinda thing.

And it's exciting to meet other people who love poetry. When I don't have that in my life to some degree, I'm less inspired and ultimately less happy.

But comments and feedback and scores? It's like free speech: the priviledge of having it means that sometimes I will hear things that I disagree with or worse don't like or even find disburbing. It's all part of the package.

Free speech goes both ways.

 

[greenmountaineer]

At the risk of sounding like a social scientist (perhaps all of whom wouldn't think about writing a poem), voting is not a true measure of a poem's worth. There would probably have to be a lot more votes cast for each submission by knowledgeable voters to be otherwise.

I believe just about any poem one writes can be improved. Constructive criticism done in a civil manner I value as much as anything. If there were no voting, it wouldn't bother me one bit.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

I've a funny feeling that because I don't read all the threads I've missed something all along ... like where was this started publicly?
I'm sorry I don't get this voting 5 for everything even when you don't think it's perfect. To me 5 is the highest you can vote it's top of the shop perfect. If I don't think it's perfect then it gets a 4, friends and foes alike, you've got other options to vote other than 5s that's what they are there for (the less than perfects). There's stuff on here far less than perfect that needs encouragement how is ignoring them completely going to help anyone move forward? I doubt it that you would have liked your first stuff ignored if it wasn't worth a 5. Both Vee and Ange gave me a 4 on the same poem and they were right it wasn't polished enough to rate a 5, if I had got all 5s I would have thought ok it was great when clearly it was not and I appreciate that I've got friends on here willing to do that for me, point out where I've gone wrong.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

Thank your lucky stars this place isn't like another site I tried for awhile (now defunct I think) where patting the backs of favourites and regulars was the norm for the most dire poetry and even the smallest amount of critique was frowned upon and completely ignored as was the critiquer in the end

 

[Liar]

I've had every low-vote and heard every insult, in PM, of the forums and in comments. It happens and it is what you make of it, no more no less.

When someone gets harsh on your writing, there are two things to ask yourself

Is this someone who more often than not have somewhat valid things to say?

If that's the case, ignore the perhaps undiplomatic rhetoric and take the message as honest critique. You're of course free to disagree with it.

If that's not the case, then meh. Life is too short to get hung up on things.

 

[Liar]

I hesitate to offer much criticism. You know, glass houses and all.

A suggestion there. Write your reaction, your first thought. That's never wrong. I have time and again commented along the lines of "pretty words, but I don't get it". And I have time and again recieved comments aling those lines. They are in my opinion the best kind of comment, cause they remind me that my readers don't live inside my brain, but inside their own, and theirs are different from mine.

 

[theognis]

I've a funny feeling that because I don't read all the threads I've missed something all along ... like where was this started publicly?
I'm sorry I don't get this voting 5 for everything even when you don't think it's perfect. To me 5 is the highest you can vote it's top of the shop perfect. If I don't think it's perfect then it gets a 4, friends and foes alike, you've got other options to vote other than 5s that's what they are there for (the less than perfects). There's stuff on here far less than perfect that needs encouragement how is ignoring them completely going to help anyone move forward? I doubt it that you would have liked your first stuff ignored if it wasn't worth a 5. Both Vee and Ange gave me a 4 on the same poem and they were right it wasn't polished enough to rate a 5, if I had got all 5s I would have thought ok it was great when clearly it was not and I appreciate that I've got friends on here willing to do that for me, point out where I've gone wrong.

All you have to do is look at Fridayam's comment on the poem, or shall I say the submission, to see where the initial insult occurred publicly. Perhaps you wouldn't mind a comment like that about one of your poems, but I didn't care for it. Seeing that comment and also seeing that he gave me a one vote did not make me happy. I don't wish to go over plowed ground again, so I'll leave it at that.

I thought I made it clear I don't vote on every poem I read. As for when I do vote, if I refused to give fives to anything but perfect poems it would mean I would rarely, if ever, vote a five, I'm afraid. Perfection is hard to come by, in my opinion.

I had never even considered the possibility of giving anyone here a one vote, so I never considered the possibility someone would give me one. It surprised me. Now I've received three, and I'm sorry to admit the second two, which were almost simultaneous, surprised me again. Live and learn.

I've never had a problem with criticism from anyone before this incident, nor have I had a problem when people have told me they've given me a four vote. I don't expect all fives, but I didn't think I deserved a one.

I tried discussing this in private with Fridayam, but it only made matters worse when he explained why he did what he did.

I'm growing tired of discussing this, so I hope I've answered your concerns.

 

[bronzeage]

So are you saying you don't care what kind of rating people give your work? A one is fine with you?

My views on voting.

For myself, I say I don't care what kind of rating people give my work. If money was at stake, it would be different. It all pays the same.

I know there is a small amount of money at stake in the contests. This is fine, but contest votes can be manipulated as well. The only reason it is not more common is because there is so little money offered. A poet has a better chance with lottery tickets.

I learned many years ago, my work has a limited appeal and a small audience. When one of my poems crawls under the fence and gets loose in the general population, it finds very little welcome.

The scoring system here is as close to random chance as anything else. People score a poem and then it is ranked beside 100 other poems which were never read. There is no objectivity or uniformity. One poet's 5 is another's 3. Some people click 5 if the spelling is close and others save their 5 for orgasm inducing verse.

This only applies to sincere readers, who are doing their best. When personal vindictiveness comes into it, it just gets silly.

 

[theognis]

A suggestion there. Write your reaction, your first thought. That's never wrong. I have time and again commented along the lines of "pretty words, but I don't get it". And I have time and again recieved comments aling those lines. They are in my opinion the best kind of comment, cause they remind me that my readers don't live inside my brain, but inside their own, and theirs are different from mine.

Thanks for your comments. I appreciate them.

 

[theognis]

My views on voting.

For myself, I say I don't care what kind of rating people give my work. If money was at stake, it would be different. It all pays the same.

I know there is a small amount of money at stake in the contests. This is fine, but contest votes can be manipulated as well. The only reason it is not more common is because there is so little money offered. A poet has a better chance with lottery tickets.

I learned many years ago, my work has a limited appeal and a small audience. When one of my poems crawls under the fence and gets loose in the general population, it finds very little welcome.

The scoring system here is as close to random chance as anything else. People score a poem and then it is ranked beside 100 other poems which were never read. There is no objectivity or uniformity. One poet's 5 is another's 3. Some people click 5 if the spelling is close and others save their 5 for orgasm inducing verse.

This only applies to sincere readers, who are doing their best. When personal vindictiveness comes into it, it just gets silly.

I appreciate your comment, as well. In my opinion vindictiveness was involved.

 

[bronzeage]

I appreciate your comment, as well. In my opinion vindictiveness was involved.

Living well is the best revenge.

 

[theognis]

Living well is the best revenge.

That's a good reminder. Thanks.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

All you have to do is look at Fridayam's comment on the poem, or shall I say the submission, to see where the initial insult occurred publicly. Perhaps you wouldn't mind a comment like that about one of your poems, but I didn't care for it. Seeing that comment and also seeing that he gave me a one vote did not make me happy. I don't wish to go over plowed ground again, so I'll leave it at that.

I thought I made it clear I don't vote on every poem I read. As for when I do vote, if I refused to give fives to anything but perfect poems it would mean I would rarely, if ever, vote a five, I'm afraid. Perfection is hard to come by, in my opinion.

I had never even considered the possibility of giving anyone here a one vote, so I never considered the possibility someone would give me one. It surprised me. Now I've received three, and I'm sorry to admit the second two, which were almost simultaneous, surprised me again. Live and learn.

I've never had a problem with criticism from anyone before this incident, nor have I had a problem when people have told me they've given me a four vote. I don't expect all fives, but I didn't think I deserved a one.

I tried discussing this in private with Fridayam, but it only made matters worse when he explained why he did what he did.

I'm growing tired of discussing this, so I hope I've answered your concerns.

that's hardly public is it? I had to dig deep to find it I doubt anyone would have noticed if it hadn't been brought to their notice and (unless there's more than one comment that I'm not seeing) I would have just thought 'cheeky sod' smiled and moved on