Poetry Discussion Circle - what say ye?

[mischievousgrin]

I'm a total newbie, so my comments aren't worth much, but I would be totally down with this.

Yeah I think each poem should have its own thread, and I think you should have to critique at least 2 others before you are allowed to post your own poem (spoken as someone who has been guilty in the past of "ask for advice then leave").

Not to step on any toes, but I dislike how even the "poetry workshop" thread has degenerated into a series of chatty comments between the regulars. I got one (very helpful) critique, and then theres a bunch of posts about someone taking a shower. it DOES make it harder to respond to the poems, and I imagine it would scare people even newer than me away.

As for the question of "how much critiquing does each poet want", i would say -- anything posted there should be fair game for a total deconstruction and heavy (but not rude) criticism, if the reader feels it is warranted.

Don't hate me,
Lino

 

[Du Lac]

I enjoy Angeline's thread it is exactly what I thought would work here in this community. I see much good coming from it. Many suggestions are made here and I like sandspike's remarks

I do think a sub forum is excellent with a separate thread for each poem.

Angeline's rules are clear and well defined and should do well in this forum.
Separate style is an excellent thought. While I worked in literature mainly I am learning about poetry and critiquing. Therefore I would feel comfortable only in areas that I have been informed. This will be an educational experience on many levels for both reviewer and submitter.

I do believe that chit chat should be placed in a chat circle or some other forum because it become distracting. Maybe there can be a chat thread attached to this forum just for this purpose.

Limiting the number of posts weekly by the poet is fair and I believe will also make one spend more time reviewing.

I look for to learning from this experience as long as the quality that is shown in the workshop is also the main focus in the forum.

Thank you
Du Lac

 

[My Erotic Tale]

I enjoy Angeline's thread it was what I thought would work here on this community. I see much good coming from it. Many suggestions are made here and I like sandspike's remarks

I do think a sub forum is excellent with a separate thread for each poem.

Angeline's rules are clear and well defined and should do well in this forum.
Separate style is an excellent thought. While I worked in literature mainly I am learning about poetry and critiquing. Therefore I would feel comfortable only in areas that I have been informed. This will be an educational experience on many levels for both reviewer and submitter.

I do believe that chit chat should be placed in a chat circle or some other forum because it become distracting. Maybe there can be a chat thread attached to this forum just for this purpose.

Limiting the number of posts weekly by the poet is fair and I believe will also make one spend more time reviewing.

I look for to learning from this experience as long as the quality that is shown in the workshop is also the main focus in the forum.

Thank you
Du Lac

LMAO~

How is a discussion circle different from a workshop thread or a feedback and discussion forum? hehehe the young one wants a tree house? I discus poems here everyday <grin>

 

[mischievousgrin]

LMAO~

How is a discussion circle different from a workshop thread or a feedback and discussion forum? hehehe the young one wants a tree house? I discus poems here everyday <grin>

Well my hopes would be that a discussion circle would have an active moderator that removed comments that weren't directly related to discussing poems, and eventually people would get the idea that the chit-chat could happen in other threads. I am *NOT* against chit-chat, but when it breaks out in the middle of a poem critique, the poem always loses.

Condescending comments like "hehehe the young ones want a tree house" just make me not want to be here. Not that I would be missed. I'm just saying, that's the effect you have. Maybe it's the effect you WANT to have.

 

[PatCarrington]

Well my hopes would be that a discussion circle would have an active moderator that removed comments that weren't directly related to discussing poems, and eventually people would get the idea that the chit-chat could happen in other threads. I am *NOT* against chit-chat, but when it breaks out in the middle of a poem critique, the poem always loses.

Condescending comments like "hehehe the young ones want a tree house" just make me not want to be here. Not that I would be missed. I'm just saying, that's the effect you have. Maybe it's the effect you WANT to have.

yes, you would be missed.

you have already shown your skills and contributed much.

 

[My Erotic Tale]

Well my hopes would be that a discussion circle would have an active moderator that removed comments that weren't directly related to discussing poems, and eventually people would get the idea that the chit-chat could happen in other threads. I am *NOT* against chit-chat, but when it breaks out in the middle of a poem critique, the poem always loses.

Condescending comments like "hehehe the young ones want a tree house" just make me not want to be here. Not that I would be missed. I'm just saying, that's the effect you have. Maybe it's the effect you WANT to have.

okay to stay with the focuss, I am curious what will be so different from now, lauren removes posts all day? and this is a discussion forum. Now not to be negative cause I have extended a lot of effort to be kind and make ammends with said person in PM and they would rather scrap than bring peace here, I will not arguing with the young at HEART <better> and simple hope tranquility will prevail.

I am not against MORE poetry discussion areas, that means this site is growing and that is a good thing.

 

[annaswirls]

yes, you would be missed.

you have already shown your skills and contributed much.

I second that. Mister Grin, I will go read your poem tomorrow and try to say something intelligent or at least a bit helpful.


I still say more than one poem at a time is the way to go. It is how I have seen every other forum like this work. Certainly we are different but not that different. For example, one forum I belonged to, people would put up their work and many poets would come around once a week when they had a chunk of time and run through all of them.

 

[mischievousgrin]

okay to stay with the focuss, I am curious what will be so different from now, lauren removes posts all day? and this is a discussion forum. Now not to be negative cause I have extended a lot of effort to be kind and make ammends with said person in PM and they would rather scrap than bring peace here, I will not arguing with the young at HEART <better> and simple hope tranquility will prevail.

Maybe i'm just being paranoid -slash-clueless, or the timing of these posts is unfortunate, but this isn't about me I trust! Ive not engaged in any PMs with tale and I don't have ill will towards anyone here, certainly including Du Lac, who i'm sure is a lovely person.

 

[Du Lac]

Maybe i'm just being paranoid -slash-clueless, or the timing of these posts is unfortunate, but this isn't about me I trust! Ive not engaged in any PMs with tale and I don't have ill will towards anyone here, certainly including Du Lac, who i'm sure is a lovely person.

LOL how did I get involved? lol... MG... do not be paranoid... and stop being sorry for your thoughts on things. You are here writing learning and being just like all of us. I thought you made some good comments. We all have the right to how we feel and the freedom to state it. So no worries friend I am happy you are here...
the lovely
du lac LOL...

 

[My Erotic Tale]

Maybe i'm just being paranoid -slash-clueless, or the timing of these posts is unfortunate, but this isn't about me I trust! Ive not engaged in any PMs with tale and I don't have ill will towards anyone here, certainly including Du Lac, who i'm sure is a lovely person.

I did not PM you,
and I don't believe I or Du Lac has any ill will towards you or any one else here. I am sorry if you read that out of that post (o_o) we may not see eye to eye on a few things but certainly not any ill will.

as for this new poetry forum/discussion place....the site is growing and that is a good thing. The groups that wish to re arrange poems has a right and more power to doing what you enjoy. I look forward to this new area to discuss poetry.

 

[darkmaas]

Annaswirls said:

As far as rules, I think it needs to be considered:

Reviewers (and the poets) should NOT review other people's reviews. Period. Don't say "I disagree with so and so, because blah blahblah" It is VERY bad form. Just state your opinion and that is it.

I have to agree with our fish that what we want is a discussion. My experience (having been a reviewer, I include myself) the reviews are sometimes (often?) more in need of critique than the poems.

 

[CharleyH]

LMAO~

How is a discussion circle different from a workshop thread or a feedback and discussion forum? hehehe the young one wants a tree house? I discus poems here everyday <grin>

You are silly, you know?

Edit to add after reading the rest of your posts: You are silly, you know?

 

[My Erotic Tale]

You are silly, you know?

Edit to add after reading the rest of your posts: You are silly, you know?

thank you Charley... (~_*)

at first I thought what would be the difference, there will not be much difference than the other forums, Then it dawned on me, that is a good thing, to grow! <grin> It is obvious the site, is growing. Perhaps the 'growing' pains were a evident. But sprout we shall, shall ye?

 

[Tzara]

I'm a total newbie, so my comments aren't worth much

Au contraire, mon ami. I am, if anything, newer than you and communities grow by fresh input. One of the problems here lately has been people leaving. Intelligent and new commentary is always refreshing.

Not to step on any toes, but I dislike how even the "poetry workshop" thread has degenerated into a series of chatty comments between the regulars. I got one (very helpful) critique, and then theres a bunch of posts about someone taking a shower. it DOES make it harder to respond to the poems, and I imagine it would scare people even newer than me away.

I think that having what amounts to separate threads for each poem will help fix that. People like you and me who aren't perhaps the most chatty in the community should get (if anything) reasonable feedback. Though I do confess to chatting sometimes and going off (sometimes way off) target.

As for the question of "how much critiquing does each poet want", i would say -- anything posted there should be fair game for a total deconstruction and heavy (but not rude) criticism, if the reader feels it is warranted.

I wholly agree unless someone specifically says "don't comment on (whatever)" though that would be, I think, a curious post.

Don't hate me

You write too well to hate you, bud. Maybe we'll just dislike you.

Your comments, doctor, are all dead on. Thanks for being bolder than I am.

tz

 

[wildsweetone]

thoughts...

i'm not sure a sub forum can be set up to have separate areas for different poetry forms... if it is NOT possible, then it would be a simple matter to state in the thread title:

Poet Name:
Poem Title:
Poem Form:

yes?

then, we 'growing poets' can pick and choose which poems we critique.

it would run fairly smoothly if only the mods posted the poems to be reviewed. anyone wanting poetry reviews could add their poem to a main sticky. Anyone who is keeping an eye on the area will KNOW who's done two reviews and who hasn't.

the only drawback i see is that it's more work for the moderators they'd have to keep the threads clean of waffle, and ensure there were regularly posted new poems for everyone to critique.

once the sub forum is up and running (is it there yet??? ) it will be easy to participate as and when we all have available time.



anyone who seriously wants to improve their writing will make the effort to join in.

 

[My Erotic Tale]

i'm not sure a sub forum can be set up to have separate areas for different poetry forms... if it is NOT possible, then it would be a simple matter to state in the thread title:

Poet Name:
Poem Title:
Poem Form:

yes?

then, we 'growing poets' can pick and choose which poems we critique.



anyone who seriously wants to improve their writing will make the effort to join in.

I haven't met a soul here who does not want to improve and grow (~_*) it is a natural thing, Im curious what difference this is than those posting threads for comments and reads? They ask for it and recieve it, isn't that the same? Or will this new area be strickly for those wanting comments on poems which there are several posted all the time?

 

[wildsweetone]

have you seen one of those poem comment threads that a poet has posted, lately?

 

[My Erotic Tale]

have you seen one of those poem comment threads that a poet has posted, lately?

this one

and also catchrist was asking for the same thing the thread maybe on page two, the not for the thinned skinned does the same thing and a few threads were poets place a poem for criticism. they appear regular, ...just watch for them or search the threads.

 

[The_Fool]

I'll say yes, but will probably lurk for awhile until I see how the forum shapes up...

One thing I would recommend is that the poem be posted with a minimum of narrative by the writer. Let the readers critique it as it stands. Then let the writer offer up discussion of relative points. That way the criticism is not tainted by the author's explanations.

 

[wildsweetone]

LMAO~

How is a discussion circle different from a workshop thread or a feedback and discussion forum? hehehe the young one wants a tree house? I discus poems here everyday <grin>

just saw that comment...

i think the biggest difference is the formality. check out the Story Discussion Circle and you'll notice just how different it is to jumping into a posted thread here.

the SDC is moderated well, and there are no off topic comments on the threads that discuss writer's work.

off topic comments can often lead to disagreements and contentious and while it's good to let off steam once in a while, doing that on the 'net is always bad news in my opinion.

those who wish to have feedback on their work must give feedback to others. doing both is an excellent way of learning, again in my opinion.

also... expansion is a way of encouragement.

 

[Senna Jawa]

the art of agreeing and the 1 poem threads

I am not sure what "sub forum" would mean in our context. It seems that
a simple institution of "1 poem thread" would be simpler, would be sufficient. According to the Ocham Razor principle, it is preferable not to create a "sub forum" when it is not necessary for our goal.

In other posts I may make certain suggestions which others may sensibly like or dislike. In this post I'd like to state some laws of the art of agreeing, and to apply them to the given issue. To contradict these laws of art of agreeing is like to contradict the laws of arithmetics. You may do it but at your own loss only.

Actually, I will concentrate on just one law here:

*** agreement should be minimal ***

This is true in the case of a business agreement, of an agreement between two life partners, this holds for constitution, for law, in the case of administrative rules, it is equally true when describing the rules governing an organization or institution. "1 poem thread" is (potentially) a new institution on Literotica, potentially useful.

I'll illustrate the principle of minimality by referring to the posts from this thread. But first let's accept certain rules before rejecting the unnecessary ones.

(*) A "1 poem thread" is a thread devoted totally to one poem only.

In the context of our board this is all that needs to be stated! The rest belongs to the interpretation of the "law". Such text complements the "law". It may change in the time much faster than the "law" itself. E.g. we may understand that posts which are not related directly to the given poem of the thread will be removed from the thread by the board's moderators. That would be the default for the coming time. In the future one may imagine that the board would grow so big that the institution of a separate "1 poem moderator" would be called for. But it is way premature to discuss this now. On the other hand it is neither wise to specify exactly the moderators in the "law"--it is enough to do so in the "interpretation".

Let's look at the further suggestions. Lauren writes:

Only when this discussion is exhausted - depending on the always-fluctuation levels of participation, it could be 1 day or 1 week - would we move on to the next poem on a new thread.

This is a good suggestion but it should not be a rule written in concrete. Rybka made raised some sensible objections. I'd say, that this should be left to the participants. I feel that it'd be nice if participants concentrated mainly on only one thread, but in my opinion none of the 1 poem threads should be ever closed. It should be ok to go back to any of them. And if participants get excited about an older thread, so be it.

I would also consider it in general (there might be exceptions) not nice to open a new 1 poem thread when the current one is still active. But I would leave it to the participants to ignore such a bastard thread. I would avoid any administrative, imposed solutions. (On the other hand, any comment in a bastard thread of the type: "Hey, that's wrong to open this new thread when the old one is active", should be removed from the thread, since it violates the law of the 1 poem threads).

Next Lauren asks:

OK. What about if, regardless of participation level, we have a new poem/thread each day?

Once again this may or may not be a good idea, but it certainly should not be a part of the "law". (Personally, one may strive at such things but participants should not feel under this kind of obligation; some poems are good to study but for ten minutes, other poems can be studied for years). There is no need to regulate the time spent on the poems. The set of rules should be minimal.

Anna (hi Anna) feels that "Also the 2 review to one post idea is important" but once again it should not be written into "law".

When it comes to voting on poems from the 1 poem threads, I am strongly against it. One voting circus is enough. But first of all such voting would be against the basic idea of the "1 poem thread", which is to study poetry more seriously than on other occasions. The point is that voting is arbitrary, and mass voting is democratic. But in the domain of art the democracy is idiotic. This reminds me about the essay: "100 professors against Einstein" Einstein's response was that if they were right then one (instead of a hundred) would be enough.

Anna also feels that " feel strongly that people should have to give critique to get it. You have to leave two comments before posting a new comment". And once again, this should not be required automatically. (Myself, I will not participate in the 1 poem threads, which feature poems by the participants of our board).

I like the spirit of Anna's statement "Reviewers (and the poets) should NOT review other people's reviews. Period." but only the spirit. Turning it into a rule may seriously damage the discussions. One cannot codify certain things.

OK, I got tired... It is clear to me that the single rule:


(*) A "1 poem thread" is a thread devoted totally to one poem only.


is all that is needed here. Don't you feel better already? Relieved?

Regards,

 

[wildsweetone]

darn, i was enjoying reading that.

write some more Senna Jawa

 

[Senna Jawa]

How would you feel about the creation of a sub-forum of the Poetry Feedback & Discussion board, a sub-forum that could be for poetry what the Story Discussion Circle is to stories: a venue for focused critique of specific poems?

The biggest difference would be that in this sub-forum, as happens on the SDC, we would all focus on one poem (or collection of closely related poems) at a time. Each of them would be on its own individual thread where everyone would be able to leave comments and critiques, respond to any specific questions made by the author, and truly discuss the poem.

I'd like to see this idea implemented simply as threads titled:

*** 1pt -- {Poem's title} ***

E.g. 1pt -- sweet potato

Now let me turn to a very important issue. I'd like to advocate considering only poems by outsiders for the 1 poem threads. Otherwise it will be the same old lie, and the whole idea of 1pt will not contribute to anybody's poetic growth. Do not confuse the ego scratching and petting (mixed with a psychological & psychiatric amateur assistance) with poetic growth. These things are sharply at odds. You may be hypocritical about it all you want but it won't make any diff. I am telling you this from the experience of the long years from the beginning of Internet, and from the preInternet years. If you want to race, to run fast, do not study movies with your own crawling, because it is useless and even counter-productive--study the movies which feature the champions.

I know with the probability 99.9999% that you will not follow my proposition. I just want to feel at peace that at least I have tried.

 

[wildsweetone]

one difficulty i see with keeping these 1pt threads in the main forum is that an influx of new threads will make the 1pt threads slip to the second page. threads that go off the main page, become abruptly forgotten. i don't consider that fair to the poet.

any thoughts?

as for 'only outsiders', i understand what you mean, BUT, i would have thought part of the idea of this whole scheme was to encourage experienced poets to share their knowledge with inexperienced poets. how can that be detrimental to learning?

---i am assuming you are aware there are some excellent poets here, both published and not published.

 

[Senna Jawa]

one difficulty i see with keeping these 1pt threads in the main forum is that an influx of new threads will make the 1pt threads slip to the second page. threads that go off the main page, become abruptly forgotten. i don't consider that fair to the poet.

any thoughts?

Actually, I have solved this one even before my posts in this thread, the moment I thought about this. There should be a sticky link in the forum's index. You click on it and get the list of the 1pt links (perhaps on a new page; or it could replace the index on the screen--either way).

as for 'only outsiders', i understand what you mean, BUT, i would have thought part of the idea of this whole scheme was to encourage experienced poets to share their knowledge with inexperienced poets. how can that be detrimental to learning?

Yes, it is detrimental. It goes against the whole idea of being a poet, it damages poetically everybody involved. I say it after observing not just Literotica but also other poetic boards (both English and Polish).

---i am assuming you are aware there are some excellent poets here, both published and not published.

Don't be silly. But even if there are some outstanding poems here it is still of a very limited value to discuss them, while the damage is considerable. It is still much, much better to discuss poems from outside. It is sick to discuss the poems from your own social circle over and over. And Literotica poetry board is certainly a social circle.

BTW, at the risk of being obsessive, I feel that the name "Poetry Discussion Circle" doesn't buy anything (is not informative(, and, what is equally bad, is uninteresting, unpoetic. I easily agree that the name is not too important (compared to other issues).

Regards,