Poetry Discussion Circle - what say ye?

[PatCarrington]

it seems to me that at a quality poetry forum, which we all want this to be, there must be places that critique, discuss, and debate poetry only.

that is the only way, i think, to ensure that newcomers of quality (like Tzara and MischievousGrin) keep coming and find a reason to stay, as well as to slow the desertion of quality poets who go elsewhere for the serious learning they desire but cannot find here. that is not the only reason people leave and don't return, of course, but i know for a fact it is one of them because i have been told as much by some vanished writers who we all wish were still here.

the technicalities of the type of forum discussed here seem to be a puzzle for a later time. they cannot be molded properly until everyone is able see how the proposal works in practice first.

one thing seems certain to me. the threads, when up, can tolerate absolutely no off-topic chat as all, or they will deteriorate. that is not only the job of the moderators (which i'm sure Lauren understands), but the responsibility of all of us to respect that rule, and all others that are laid out.

the only downside here is that it doesn't work well, which is not a downside at all.

 

[Reltne]

19 to 1

So far there is only one vote against creating a sub-forum solely for serious poem commentary. Interesting.

I wonder who that one negative person is.

 

[impressive]

Question on implementation: Would the moderator(s) be the only one(s) able to start threads?

Looking at the SDC, there ARE other threads there besides the "formal" review queue. They don't get (as much) attention, but they're there.

This is my vision of a PDC:

The poet, when focused critique is desired, creates a thread. The title of the thread delineates it as such. For example, PDC: Wasted (impressive) -- where the PDC tells folks that review is desired based upon the sub-forum guidelines (which, of course, are detailed in a sticky post).

That thread will "live" until folks lose interest in tweaking -- or until the poet cries "Uncle!" The poet can bump the thread (as needed) until satisfied with the amount of feedback received.

Poets who fail to provide critique would simply not receive it (or much of it). That part would police itself, I believe, without moderator manipulation. Is there the potential for cliquishness? Sure, but that's up to each of us personally to battle. I, for one, would strive to provide feedback to a wide array of poets. I trust many others would do the same.

There is nothing in this construct which would prevent the review of outside poetry (i.e., PDC: The Raven (Poe)) ... or even the review of a Lit poem by a poet who does not participate on the forums.

I've wanted to participate on both the Poetry Workshop and Thin-Skinned threads ... but they're too chaotic (for me) with multiple works in progress. The PDC could distill (and, potentially, replace) both. No, I'm not saying they NEED to be replaced ... I'm just saying that I believe the objective of both could be better met in the PDC with individual poem threads.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Condescending comments like "hehehe the young ones want a tree house" just make me not want to be here. Not that I would be missed. I'm just saying, that's the effect you have. Maybe it's the effect you WANT to have.

Please don't judge us by what one individual says. New members with such high respect for language and love of poetry - such as you, and Tzara, and others - are always too few, and your departure before we even have time to get to know you and your writing wouldn't go by unnoticed.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

BTW, at the risk of being obsessive, I feel that the name "Poetry Discussion Circle" doesn't buy anything (is not informative(, and, what is equally bad, is uninteresting, unpoetic. I easily agree that the name is not too important (compared to other issues).

The name, Poetry Discussion Circle, obviously mirrors our long-standing sister forum, Story Discussion Circle. I used it as a matter of cross-site consistency, but, as you say, it's the least important of these issues.

 

[flyguy69]

I love it. Anyone that participates in other on-line poetry workshops will recognize the format and appreciate the value.

I like the idea of it being a separate forum (subforum?) for the reasons that WSO cites. That also eliminates the need for silly appendages to the titles (1pt, pdc, etc.).

I suggest there be two sticky threads within it: one that describes the format of the forum and provides a rubric that reviewers may use, another that contains links to resources on understanding poetry (jtsierra's asian form post, Eve's link to poetry terms, etc). I like the second thread as a list of links rather than the resources themselves because it will direct discussion on those topics to the forum on which they are posted rather than to this sticky thread.

Such forums often have a limit to the number of threads a poet may initiate (e.g. two per week) to keep any one poet from consuming the precious resource of their peers' thoughts.

Great thinking, everyone!

one difficulty i see with keeping these 1pt threads in the main forum is that an influx of new threads will make the 1pt threads slip to the second page. threads that go off the main page, become abruptly forgotten. i don't consider that fair to the poet.

any thoughts?

as for 'only outsiders', i understand what you mean, BUT, i would have thought part of the idea of this whole scheme was to encourage experienced poets to share their knowledge with inexperienced poets. how can that be detrimental to learning?

---i am assuming you are aware there are some excellent poets here, both published and not published.

 

[wildsweetone]

I love the idea of outside poetry discussions! Great thinking Senna and impressive

(Reltne, click on the figures in the voting poll and you'll see who voted for what. - it is a public poll.)

 

[Senna Jawa]

I like the idea of it being a separate forum (subforum?) for the reasons that WSO cites. That also eliminates the need for silly appendages to the titles (1pt, pdc, etc.).

I still don't know what "subforum" would mean. It's important though to keep things simple.

The title of each thread should be up to the one who initiates the thread, we know that. The experienced Internet citizens know well the value of the "silly" pre- and postfix additions to the titles of their postings. But you don't have to have them in your own posts if you don't like them.

I suggest there be two sticky threads within it: one that describes the format of the forum and provides a rubric that reviewers may use, another that contains links to resources on understanding poetry (jtsierra's asian form post, Eve's link to poetry terms, etc).

There is no need to mix the straight idea of the 1 poem threads with other concepts and items. There is room and possibility for a separate thread which lists and discusses resources on the general poetry board (it's already done, isn't it?). Any dilluting, any noise, any extras make the given object--here the 1 poem thread institution-- less atractive, more obscured.

Such forums often have a limit to the number of threads a poet may initiate (e.g. two per week) to keep any one poet from consuming the precious resource of their peers' thoughts.

I am against a rule like this, and until this is a real problem, it is not even worth to discuss it in advance. When overposting or overinitialization becomes a problem then one should think hard and find a better solution than this kind of mechanical restrictions. The art of agreeing respects non-imposing, assumes creativity, staying away from easy knee-jerk-reflex restrictions.

Regards,

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I still don't know what "subforum" would mean. It's important though to keep things simple.

The title of each thread should be up to the one who initiates the thread, we know that. The experienced Internet citizens know well the value of the "silly" pre- and postfix additions to the titles of their postings. But you don't have to have them in your own posts if you don't like them.

The sub-forum would be a separate forum, with an independent listing of threads, within the Poetry Feedback & Discussion. The same way Survivor Contest is a sub-forum of Awards & Contests; HT Cafe is a sub-forum of How To...; BDSM Cafe is a sub-forum of BDSM Talk; and The Playground, GLBT Personals, and BDSM Personals are sub-forums of Literotica Personals.

In terms of simplicity, that does beat any "silly" pre- and suffixes to titles.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

By the way. The poll shows a result so far 21 to 1 in favour of Yes, so I will assume this constitutes a wide enough consensus.

I'm taking note of all the opinions and suggestions on how the sub-forum can work, and will post a new poll tomorrow for us to decide which organic model to try.

 

[Senna Jawa]

those who wish to have feedback on their work must give feedback to others. doing both is an excellent way of learning, again in my opinion.

That's a common opinion on the Internet but I disagree. I don't see people learning this way. Actually, the wrong notions and bad taste get enforced. If some authors make some progress (which is a big if) it is mainly due to other circumstances and despite the ill interactions. Only a tiny-tiny percentage of comments are useful, they are rare. True, the interactions keep the authors' interest and motivation up, but at a price.

On the other hand the discussions about outside poetry can be free from many drawbacks associated with the interaction of the type: I pay attention to your texts and you pay attention to my texts, and we are both important and taken care of. The moment an author feels that it is ok to make others to spent time on discussing her/his writing, that author ceases to be a poet. You can't have it both ways, no way.

Regards,

 

[flyguy69]

... The moment an author feels that it is ok to make others to spent time on discussing her/his writing, that author ceases to be a poet. You can't have it both ways, no way.

Regards,

It is a common opinion not just on the internet, but in poetry workshops and on college campuses across the globe. I certainly won't make anyone spend time on my poetry, but I will ask it of them. And I will remain a poet.

Speaking only from personal experience, I have grown as a poet explicitly because other folks here (and elsewhere) were willing to take the time to discuss my writing. So this assertion just doesn't ring true for me.

 

[Aunty Muse]

By the way. The poll shows a result so far 21 to 1 in favor of Yes, so I will assume this constitutes a wide enough consensus.

I'm taking note of all the opinions and suggestions on how the sub-forum can work, and will post a new poll tomorrow for us to decide which organic model to try.

24 to 1 as of now.

I look forward to a forum (sub or not) for serious poetic criticism.
I know that Literotica is an 'adult site', but that does not mean that the quality of writing, erotic or non, should not be as high as possible. There are times when taking liberties with standard English grammar, spelling, and or syntax is artistically justified, but far more often than not mistakes are made because the writer is lazy or just doesn't care.

Authors, please be aware: If you share your writing with others then you should (maybe even must) consider their sensibilities..

If yu rite crap yoo Knead to say Y! Capiche???????????????

 

[wildsweetone]

Senna Jawa -
That's a common opinion on the Internet but I disagree. I don't see people learning this way. Actually, the wrong notions and bad taste get enforced. If some authors make some progress (which is a big if) it is mainly due to other circumstances and despite the ill interactions. Only a tiny-tiny percentage of comments are useful, they are rare. True, the interactions keep the authors' interest and motivation up, but at a price.

i have helped others both with prose and with poetry and others have helped me. both sides have improved from the 'contact'.

people who are willing to be openminded and learn, and who are willing to work, will improve.

there are many ways of preferred learning. some find discussion a good way of learning, others find simply getting down and mass creating a better way. we're all different.

the word 'make' in regard to this new forum is simply ensuring that those receiving feedback on their work, will also spend time giving feedback to others. it's a two way street. critiques take time and it is simply 'good form' to return that time in kind.

nobody here, that i'm aware of, is getting monetary payment for what is being given.

there is always a price for learning, loss of time. i believe the rewards outweigh that price as it is time well spent.

 

[ishtat]

it seems to me that at a quality poetry forum, which we all want this to be, there must be places that critique, discuss, and debate poetry only.


one thing seems certain to me. the threads, when up, can tolerate absolutely no off-topic chat as all, or they will deteriorate. that is not only the job of the moderators (which i'm sure Lauren understands), but the responsibility of all of us to respect that rule, and all others that are laid out.

I have been OS for a while but on this a fairly rare foray must support Mr C's common sense and his plea for intellectual rigour and discipline . This will require moderaters to chop out chit chat fairly ruthlessly. Are all prepared to accept that?

 

[Senna Jawa]

It is a common opinion not just on the internet, but in poetry workshops and on college campuses across the globe.

This was a comment about the peer interaction. But in the workshops and on campuses you have instructors. The peer to peer interaction is only an element of the process there, just to add to it some spice, to make things more lively.

The two situations are drastically different.

Actually, it'd be great if people would take courses of poetry (that's what many early Internet participants did), just like people take piano classes, etc.

Regards,

 

[Liar]

That's a common opinion on the Internet but I disagree. I don't see people learning this way. Actually, the wrong notions and bad taste get enforced. If some authors make some progress (which is a big if) it is mainly due to other circumstances and despite the ill interactions. Only a tiny-tiny percentage of comments are useful, they are rare. True, the interactions keep the authors' interest and motivation up, but at a price.

I know we've had discussions on this theme way back, but I don't think I ever got around to ask you... Which are those other circumstances?

How does one learn and make progress, aquire the tools and knowledge to write better, if not by the extended perspecive and the assimilation of alien ideas (or when it's at it's best, accommodation to them) that comes from interaction with other people? Because I know of no other way.

Of course, some of those ideas will be wrong, ineffective or even destructive. But by digging into the mud, you can either get...well...mud. Or you can learn how to recognize the gold. That, learning how to spot the constructive knowledge, is worth a hell of a lot of mud, and can only be done by plunging straight in.

 

[Liar]

This was a comment about the peer interaction. But in the workshops and on campuses you have instructors. The peer to peer interaction is only an element of the process there, just to add to it some spice, to make things more lively.

The two situations are drastically different.

Actually, it'd be great if people would take courses of poetry (that's what many early Internet participants did), just like people take piano classes, etc.

Regards,

Ah. K. That was a bit of clarification on the post I just wrote. It seemed at first that you said that all interacion was bad. Interaction with an expert is not then. Gotcha.

However, depending on the subject at hand, I don't think they are that drastically different. To interact wih peers or people whose knowledge base you are unaware of, require a differnt approach, and a practical techne knowledge on how to read the information you recieve that differs from how you approach information from a known authority.

Damn that was a long friggin sentence. But really. That's all there's to it.

 

[BooMerengue]

*throwin my hands in the air and doin that sexy hip slingin dance (that only younguns should do) and throwin my head back singin loud...

Wicked Eve was here today! Ooowaaaah!!

She's a lurkin I know cuz I smelled her perfume!! Yayyy!!!

 

[WickedEve]

*throwin my hands in the air and doin that sexy hip slingin dance (that only younguns should do) and throwin my head back singin loud...

Wicked Eve was here today! Ooowaaaah!!

She's a lurkin I know cuz I smelled her perfume!! Yayyy!!!

Yes, you bitch, I voted. lol I am interested in the possibility of a sub forum. And I've told Lauren that I am willing to do some behind the scenes mod duties, which may be needed even more now if we include a sub forum. But wicked eve has not yet been persuaded to be a regular poster or submit any new poetry. She's still out exploring--and it's kind of boring out there.

 

[My Erotic Tale]

Yes, you bitch, I voted. lol I am interested in the possibility of a sub forum. And I've told Lauren that I am willing to do some behind the scenes mod duties, which may be needed even more now if we include a sub forum. But wicked eve has not yet been persuaded to be a regular poster or submit any new poetry. She's still out exploring--and it's kind of boring out there.

please come home eve,.....
<grin> all the fun is here (~_*)

 

[Scott N. Leavitt]

I am not smart I know so how can people saying how to write not help??? Like Rybka telling about spell check and Alicia showing how??
Thank you much!!!

Your friend Scott N. Leavitt

 

[Angeline]

Yes, you bitch, I voted. lol I am interested in the possibility of a sub forum. And I've told Lauren that I am willing to do some behind the scenes mod duties, which may be needed even more now if we include a sub forum. But wicked eve has not yet been persuaded to be a regular poster or submit any new poetry. She's still out exploring--and it's kind of boring out there.

Well it's not boring here of late as you may have noticed though it can get awfully tiring.

But really I am posting to say I can't believe you wrote a post about a sub forum without one wicked comment.

 

[The_Fool]

Well it's not boring here of late as you may have noticed though it can get awfully tiring.

But really I am posting to say I can't believe you wrote a post about a sub forum without one wicked comment.

Shhhhhh!!! She thinks the sub is for submissive....That's why she is interested...

 

[Angeline]

Shhhhhh!!! She thinks the sub is for submissive....That's why she is interested...

that's what i thought she must have assumed