Poetry Discussion Circle - what say ye?

[Senna Jawa]

Which are those other circumstances?

First of all talent. Also the attitude, the life philosophy (not the preached one but the practised one). The Internet peer discussions about the poems of the participants are in a contradiction with the fundamental ideas of poetry.

How does one learn and make progress, aquire the tools and knowledge to write better, if not by the extended perspecive and the assimilation of alien ideas (or when it's at it's best, accommodation to them) that comes from interaction with other people? Because I know of no other way.

Really? Would you like to be operated on by an enthusiast and ego maniac who got the title of "surgeon" via discussions with other enthusiastic ego maniacs? You know the scene: you are right and I am right, every way is good as long as you believe in it, etc.

Of course, some of those ideas will be wrong, ineffective or even destructive. But by digging into the mud, you can either get...well...mud. Or you can learn how to recognize the gold.

No, you stay in this same mud, deeper and deeper, and the so called progress means only that you start to call it gold. This kind of activity is a hopeless waste of time except for the good social feeling, if that's what you are after.

That, learning how to spot the constructive knowledge, is worth a hell of a lot of mud, and can only be done by plunging straight in.

I don't think that with this kind of your preparation in the field of, say, astronomy+software, your brother would be happy to be sent into cosmos, knowing that he relies on your cosmic (often confused with cosmetic) discussions with your peers.

This kind of views and attitude shows a total lack of appreciation of poetry and art. You think that you respect poetry but you don't. Du Fu has studied and creatively absorbed over a thousand of years of the development of the Chinese poetry. But Internet guys think that it is enough to get their ego boosted by other guys like them. Internet is a great ego booster for many, but a poetry booster only for very few. Also, conscientiously or not but one has to practise certain philosophy, at least during the creative act.

How does one learn and make progress?. Several hundreds years ago Buson, and Basho before him, had advised a student: learn from the Chinese masters. That would be the first step. And you need to study poems by people who are distant from you.

Regards,

 

[Senna Jawa]

Ah. K. That was a bit of clarification on the post I just wrote. It seemed at first that you said that all interacion was bad. Interaction with an expert is not then. Gotcha.

No, you didn't. Not at all. But I am getting tired.

However, depending on the subject at hand, I don't think they are that drastically different.

They are deeply different. The teacher's knowledge and feel for poetry is only a part of it, important, but far from the most important.

To make this conversation lighter, let me mention something aside, not terribly related to our discussion: the greatest sportsmen and artists have coaches (some do, some don't), including world champions. These top stars often know more about their activity than their coaches/teachers, but they still find their coaches/teachers to be useful to them.

Regards,

 

[wildsweetone]

so perhaps that's a little closer to the key we need...

some peer discussion, some 'master' tutoring, and lots of our own writing and experiences. i think we need a little of each to grow as writers.

i don't expect the new forum to be my total sum of poetry immersion, but i do expect it will be part of it.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

This was a comment about the peer interaction. But in the workshops and on campuses you have instructors. The peer to peer interaction is only an element of the process there, just to add to it some spice, to make things more lively.

I suspect we'll do fine, then. We have plenty of peers to add some spice and make things more lively, and, now that you're back, we have the God of Poetry itself to instruct us mere mortals.

 

[BooMerengue]

I thought My Erotic Tale and MRWIGGLEWORM were the same person. How'd he get to vote twice?

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I thought My Erotic Tale and MRWIGGLEWORM were the same person. How'd he get to vote twice?

They're not.

 

[My Erotic Tale]

They're not.

thank you lauren!

 

[Senna Jawa]

this one

You've seen nothing. Look again

Regards,

 

[Liar]

First of all talent. Also the attitude, the life philosophy (not the preached one but the practised one). The Internet peer discussions about the poems of the participants are in a contradiction with the fundamental ideas of poetry.

...which are? You keep on saying "this is wrong". But when I ask you what is right, you go all abstruse on my ass. What attitude and life philosophy is the right one? If you don't define this, there is no way for me to understand how "the internet peer discussions" (And by the way, how are Internet peers different than other peers?) contradict the True and Holy Way of Poetry. I do believe that you know a hole lot about poetry, but if all you do is sneer down your nose, you are not really contributing.

Really? Would you like to be operated on by an enthusiast and ego maniac who got the title of "surgeon" via discussions with other enthusiastic ego maniacs? You know the scene: you are right and I am right, every way is good as long as you believe in it, etc.

No, I would prefer a pro, thankyouverymuch. What has that got to do with anything here? What question did you answer? Not the one I asked, at least. This is not about the lovey dovey "you're right and I'm right" crap, but if that is what you think I'm talking about then I can see why you think it's a lost cause.

No, you stay in this same mud, deeper and deeper, and the so called progress means only that you start to call it gold. This kind of activity is a hopeless waste of time except for the good social feeling, if that's what you are after.

Well...no. There is a method and it does work. Look, it's a experienced based knowledge... a philosophical skill, if you will. And you learn it by handling loads of diverse information every day, trying on new perspectives, assimilating the opinions and experiences of others into your own arsenal of experience. And the only way to truly learn how to do that and navigate and sift though it is by...doing it. You can't learn how to swim without getting into the water. You can only learn so much French from reading about it. Eventually you will have to go to France and listen to people, attempt to communicate. It's no different than that.If that doesn't stick, I honestly don't know how to explain it to you. If you are set on the idea that a common body of knowledge can not be extracted and evaluated and dissected critically for what it is, then so be it. All I can say is, believe what you want to. It's not my loss.

I know that you will think all that is shenannigans... but I don't write this to convince you. Just in hope that other's minds will not be shut to a valid possibility.

I don't think that with this kind of your preparation in the field of, say, astronomy+software, your brother would be happy to be sent into cosmos, knowing that he relies on your cosmic (often confused with cosmetic) discussions with your peers.

Again as with the surgeon, where did I say that? And how is that similie even relevant?

This kind of views and attitude shows a total lack of appreciation of poetry and art. You think that you respect poetry but you don't. Du Fu has studied and creatively absorbed over a thousand of years of the development of the Chinese poetry. But Internet guys think that it is enough to get their ego boosted by other guys like them.

Uh, no, I don't.

Internet is a great ego booster for many, but a poetry booster only for very few. Also, conscientiously or not but one has to practise certain philosophy, at least during the creative act.

How does one learn and make progress?. Several hundreds years ago Buson, and Basho before him, had advised a student: learn from the Chinese masters. That would be the first step. And you need to study poems by people who are distant from you.

Oh, definitely. I can't see where I said that you should not. There are many ways to expand your horizons.

 

[Liar]

No, you didn't. Not at all. But I am getting tired.

I recommend espresso shots and scotch.

They are deeply different. The teacher's knowledge and feel for poetry is only a part of it, important, but far from the most important.

To make this conversation lighter, let me mention something aside, not terribly related to our discussion: the greatest sportsmen and artists have coaches (some do, some don't), including world champions. These top stars often know more about their activity than their coaches/teachers, but they still find their coaches/teachers to be useful to them.

I'd say that the most important part is the teacher's knowledge and ability on how to teach well.

Which is why I'm pissed off at the curriculum for getting a teacher's degreee here in Sweden. No basic rhetorics, no knowledge of the learning process, almost no didactics training. Our politicians are turning this into a 3rd world counrty by examining shiatty techers these days. Blah.


Sorry for the interruption. Back to them poems, and my disrecpect for them.

 

[MRWIGGLEWORM]

my 2 cents for what it is worth

Literotica was founded on the principals of freedom of spech. You cannot post many of the stories and poetry found here in main stream media. Obscenity laws and certain "bible thumping" conservatives would have you hauled to jail or burned at the stake. There are plenty of other places on the web for poetry discussion. you can open a thread just for this. but you cant tell people they can and cant say. freedom of speech is a double edged sword. it cuts both ways. It takes thought, patients, and sometimes toleration. if you can write poetry or a story. you can put up with a few oddball comments here and there. basically if you give up the right to post where you want. then the next thing to go is what you can say. and free will is in the spirit of every poet and that is what makes lit a community and not a website. just my humble opinion

 

[wildsweetone]

self improvement takes a certain amount of self control, in my opinion

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Literotica was founded on the principals of freedom of spech. You cannot post many of the stories and poetry found here in main stream media. Obscenity laws and certain "bible thumping" conservatives would have you hauled to jail or burned at the stake. There are plenty of other places on the web for poetry discussion. you can open a thread just for this. but you cant tell people they can and cant say. freedom of speech is a double edged sword. it cuts both ways. It takes thought, patients, and sometimes toleration. if you can write poetry or a story. you can put up with a few oddball comments here and there. basically if you give up the right to post where you want. then the next thing to go is what you can say. and free will is in the spirit of every poet and that is what makes lit a community and not a website. just my humble opinion

That's a very fine sentiment, but what does it have to do with us having a new sub-forum or not?

 

[wildsweetone]

hey lauren, it's tomorrow already!

get it up girl!

 

[Lauren Hynde]

hey lauren, it's tomorrow already!

get it up girl!

Sheesh! All right, let me organise my thoughts about it.

(That may take a while. LOL)

 

[Senna Jawa]

No, I would prefer a pro, thankyouverymuch.[...]

L-r, let me mention a few peculiarities of my responses to you, and on some other occasions:

• I use so-called impersonal "you" a lot. Thus what I write is mostly not about you personally but about a generic peer;
• I extrapolate your questions and views in my mind in order to address the common (mis)concept(ion)s;
• I use shortcuts. People name certain discussions and advising, which go on and on (e.g. "use images") to be discussions on poetry. I call them what they mostly are in effect, I call them "reciprocal ego scratching sessions", etc. I am too impatient to explain the whole thread of my arguments, from everybody's language to mine. I don't have energy for that. I fdon't possess such skills in the first place.

[/list]
So why do I get tempted by these poor communication attempts and exercises? I could simply refer to the universal chaos. However I would like to refer you to lucky flukes too. Occasionally someone is on a similar wave length. Then my rambling can be useful to that person. Why, occasionally, as rare as it happens, someone may even like one of my poems.

When it comes to the very understanding of the poetry, and of the philosophy imposed by poetry, I had started to write a bit about it on Literotica. More waas posted on an Internet site, but in Polish. I should write these things on my own page at Alanisko's. It's easier form me for starters to write for an audience, to have some feedback or the feeling that someone is reading it. On the other hand the free format Internet sites mess up my threads, and I lose my motivation (I would need a separation of the core material threads from the discussion/feedback threads). One way or another it is simply not in the cards for me to write about poetry in a complete way.

I've written here in the past the three principles which describe poetry. But to fill these principle with meaning would take a lot more. To a great extend these principle are common to the whole non-abstract art, but I am focusing on poetry. There is one more thing too, and this one is characteristic for poetry:

music -- the art of sound
poetry -- the art of words
mathematics -- the art of thinking
​

it sounds deceivingly easy: the art of words, but there is quite a bit to it, and only relatively few people understand the involved issues in a sufficiently complete way. Perhaps I'll write a short note about this (but I am not promising ).

Regards,​

 

[Senna Jawa]

That's a very fine sentiment, but what does it have to do with us having a new sub-forum or not?

A lot:

You want to found the new subforum on interest, while Literotica was founded on principals.

You guys all play doctors but Mr has observed that doctors will not get far without patients (also thinking and sometimes tolerance are needed).

If you read Mr's post carefully you will find strong connections to the subforum and all other things. For instance you will feel free to fill the archive with oddballs. Also, you will forget about the website and you will concentrate on your free will. Only then, according to Mr, you'll justify an application for a poet's spirit (so that you can store your free will).

We are talking about a poetic subforum hence all considerations related to subfree will and poetic subspirit are not offsubtropical.

Regards,

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Only then, according to Mr, you'll justify an application for a poet's spirit (so that you can store your free will).

We are talking about a poetic subforum hence all considerations related to subfree will and poetic subspirit are not offsubtropical.

So, what we need is not a new subspiritual poetic subtropical forum but to move to Tahiti or to the French Polynesia like Gauguin? He used to say that "Art is either plagiarism or revolution."

 

[Senna Jawa]

So, what we need is not a new subspiritual poetic subtropical forum but to move to Tahiti or to the French Polynesia like Gauguin?

It would aids our poetry.

He used to say that "Art is either plagiarism or revolution."

Stravinski said: good artists borrow, great artists steal.

Regards,

 

[Remec]

that's what i thought she must have assumed

Hey, if it brings her in now and then, let's let her think whatever she wants. <smile>

 

[mischievousgrin]

Stravinsky also said: "Music, to be truly great, must be cold and unemotional".

 

[twelveoone]

I applaud all in this thread

Glad to see Discussion from such a variety of people.
As usual I have little to say, but will make an effort to come out of my shell.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I should have posted something directing everyone who participated in this thread to a new poll started yesterday, about the model we'll use on the new sub-forum. Here is a link.