Problems with heterosexual pornography; a rant

[Stella_Omega]

let me recommend the kink bingo community

it illustrates a lot of what we've been talking about here. Even the porn without plot is contexual, because everything here is fanfic-- so it's based on what the fans already know about the characters.

Of course most of it is written but there are plenty of visual women contributing imagery.

 

[WillowedCabin]

Ranty McRantrant

There are undoubtedly some women who like porn with no plot or romance but I'm deeply skeptical that they would be a majority.

I need some stats on that-- like yesterday.

Any place I go where women are talking about creating erotica they aren't talking much about men's looks, they aren't talking much about particular sexual acts, they are talking A LOT about men's personalities that are hot and situations (aka plot) that men could be in which would be hot. If you go to a forum which has a fiction section and an art section there will always be a higher proportion of men requesting visual images of characters and sexual acts, and there will always be a higher proportion of women requesting stories about characters feeling particular emotions and a relationship progression they want to see occur.

Well, you are making a lot of generalizations here about women. First of all, women (statistically) talk more then men do every day. We also statistically articulate better (we can word associate easier) and also tend to statistically make more decisions with emotional centers. However, it is a logical fallacy to say that because of your experience on chatboards that all women are this way. If anything we can say that female reproductive systems usually come with higher levels of certain hormones which can at times lead to certain developmental patterns in the brain, which may or may not alter certain processes of thinking--- but we can never say 'women are this, and women like that'. What about all the people in between? When we say 'to watch porn like men'... what kind of man is 'men'? Is 'men' Bill Cosby or Mr. Rodgers? Is 'men' Vin Diesel or Andy Dick? What is men?

All of this being said, that means absolutely nothing about our porn. Women have romance novels and women can likewise love hardcore, intense porn. End of story.

 

[rosco rathbone]

I have no problem with the objectification of women or porn that focusses on the male orgasm. The problem is, they can't even do THAT right.

 

[WillowedCabin]

Whip it good.

I have no problem with the objectification of women or porn that focusses on the male orgasm. The problem is, they can't even do THAT right.

I cannot agree more. I get into a ton of fights with a feminist friend of mine over this all the time.

Porn is perspective. If the woman in the flick feels degraded by being tied up and called a slut; then it is degrading, but there is just as good a chance that she feels liberated and sexually awakened by this. I myself LOVE angry, tormented sex or abuse in the bedroom. This doesn't mean that I think men should abuse me or slap me around at work. What this means is I have a kink, nothing more.

Being for sexual equality also means that we're for people choosing whatever they want-- and sometimes people want to be topped and whipped.

I am TOTALLY fine with women being degraded and objectified in porn (as long as it is consensual), but do they really have to take this archetype and beat it into the ground? to have a shitty script and bad 80s music with it?! Why can't this be made well? And why must this be all there is?

And why, as a woman, am I viewed as 'abnormal' for liking this?

 

[voltigeur]

Originally Posted by rosco rathbone  
I have no problem with the objectification of women or porn that focusses on the male orgasm. The problem is, they can't even do THAT right. 

I cannot agree more. I get into a ton of fights with a feminist friend of mine over this all the time.

Porn is perspective. If the woman in the flick feels degraded by being tied up and called a slut; then it is degrading, but there is just as good a chance that she feels liberated and sexually awakened by this. I myself LOVE angry, tormented sex or abuse in the bedroom. This doesn't mean that I think men should abuse me or slap me around at work. What this means is I have a kink, nothing more. 

Being for sexual equality also means that we're for people choosing whatever they want-- and sometimes people want to be topped and whipped. 

I am TOTALLY fine with women being degraded and objectified in porn (as long as it is consensual), but do they really have to take this archetype and beat it into the ground? to have a shitty script and bad 80s music with it?! Why can't this be made well? And why must this be all there is?

And why, as a woman, am I viewed as 'abnormal' for liking this?

I like the kinky stuff in porn and really like the mental part of it. What I hate is the anatomy lesson. Camera spends and eternity on teh genitals. YOu can't see anything else!

I agree any porn shold be about the experience. Even when it steps outside the "norm"

 

[Stella_Omega]

I cannot agree more. I get into a ton of fights with a feminist friend of mine over this all the time.

Porn is perspective. If the woman in the flick feels degraded by being tied up and called a slut; then it is degrading, but there is just as good a chance that she feels liberated and sexually awakened by this. I myself LOVE angry, tormented sex or abuse in the bedroom. This doesn't mean that I think men should abuse me or slap me around at work. What this means is I have a kink, nothing more.

Being for sexual equality also means that we're for people choosing whatever they want-- and sometimes people want to be topped and whipped.

I am TOTALLY fine with women being degraded and objectified in porn (as long as it is consensual), but do they really have to take this archetype and beat it into the ground? to have a shitty script and bad 80s music with it?! Why can't this be made well? And why must this be all there is?

And why, as a woman, am I viewed as 'abnormal' for liking this?

come visit the BDSM forums here...

 

[infinity706]

If a woman is extremely aware of gender politics, M/M is good hard fucking minus the "females are sluts" message that she KNOWS she'll get from het pron (this is probably the problem for the women you're complaining about, infinity. It isn't hypocrisy, it's all of a piece.)

I'm not really sure how the "females are sluts" message makes sense, though. In gay porn, guys get spanked, slapped around, gangbanged, covered in cum, and anything else that happens to women in straight porn.

I like the kinky stuff in porn and really like the mental part of it. What I hate is the anatomy lesson. Camera spends and eternity on teh genitals. YOu can't see anything else!

Yeah, but some of us love the genital closeups. It really lets me imagine going down on the person in question.

 

[voltigeur]

[QUOTE Yeah, but some of us love the genital closeups. It really lets me imagine going down on the person in question.[/QUOTE]

Not saying it should never be there. It is the 5 minutes of penis in pussy and nothing else.

In the service we had a guy that had just turned 21 and went nuts renting porn tapes. He brought on that had I swear 3 or 4 of these scenes that lasted for at least 5 min each felt like an hour. I actually fell asleep during that one.

I like for the sexual scene to be an experience. For that I have to see the person's face and the entire body.

But that is just me.

 

[sunandshadow]

let me recommend the kink bingo community

it illustrates a lot of what we've been talking about here. Even the porn without plot is contexual, because everything here is fanfic-- so it's based on what the fans already know about the characters.

Of course most of it is written but there are plenty of visual women contributing imagery.

I'm a member of a kink meme community, and I do think their structure is informative of how women think about what's erotic. But I haven't seen anyone contribute art in months, it's all stories and discussion of prompts/requests.

 

[sunandshadow]

I need some stats on that-- like yesterday.

It's not like I can produce stats on my personal experience. There's that survey by the guys who wrote the book A Billion Wicked Thoughts which says that fanfiction is the most popular form of erotica among women. The scientific accuracy of that survey is disputed though. Personally I'm holding out for the results of this one: http://pornresearch.org/

Well, you are making a lot of generalizations here about women. First of all, women (statistically) talk more then men do every day. We also statistically articulate better (we can word associate easier) and also tend to statistically make more decisions with emotional centers. However, it is a logical fallacy to say that because of your experience on chatboards that all women are this way. If anything we can say that female reproductive systems usually come with higher levels of certain hormones which can at times lead to certain developmental patterns in the brain, which may or may not alter certain processes of thinking--- but we can never say 'women are this, and women like that'. What about all the people in between? When we say 'to watch porn like men'... what kind of man is 'men'? Is 'men' Bill Cosby or Mr. Rodgers? Is 'men' Vin Diesel or Andy Dick? What is men?

All of this being said, that means absolutely nothing about our porn. Women have romance novels and women can likewise love hardcore, intense porn. End of story.

Nothing that I said included the phrase "all women". Everything I said was either more women this and fewer women that, more women this and more men that, or not usually this and usually that. Perhaps it didn't come across but I was trying to talk about men and women in the statistical sense, which I think is the only way a whole gender can usefully be discussed.

I honestly don't think the topic is worth arguing about because there are multiple valid reasons many people are unhappy with existing crappy porn, and multiple reasons existing crappy porn is the lion's share of what's available. But maybe it would contribute something useful to the discussion if I, as a woman, link to the hottest piece of video erotica I've ever seen, Sensitive Pornograph (male/male anime) A stellar example of how a real story can make for a great erotic video.

 

[zont]

Old, in and out, gets old fast. The best porn I've ever watched with a partner has had humor, either in the "story line" such as it is, or in the performers. Its the only kind I've gone back and watched again.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I'm not really sure how the "females are sluts" message makes sense, though. In gay porn, guys get spanked, slapped around, gangbanged, covered in cum, and anything else that happens to women in straight porn.

because when men get slapped around etc by other men, the message is not that women are sluts.

Because it's men, see?

This lets women take a step away from that ever-present "S" word.

Haven't we been through all of this before? It seems kinda 101-ish to me.

 

[Stella_Omega]

But maybe it would contribute something useful to the discussion if I, as a woman, link to the hottest piece of video erotica I've ever seen, Sensitive Pornograph (male/male anime) A stellar example of how a real story can make for a great erotic video.

I couldn't sit through it...

Far too much story, not enough sex for my erotic tastes!

 

[rosco rathbone]

If porn is taken in the largest possible sense as "visuals of others fucking", I think that I would prefer something like a nano tech peep cam.

It would be the size of a bug, steerable by joystick. I would fly it into the bedrooms of normal, non porn-star (or "pornstar" as current argot has it) folk to watch them fuck in their normal manner.

That would be far more exciting to me than any porns I've ever viewed.

 

[LindsayRae]

I need some stats on that.

Stats:
I hate the "acting" in the 70s and 80s porn. (My man and I recently watched I Like to be Watched with Christy Canyon. Nice bush on her, and my honey likes her tits. The other gals were not hot, but that's not the point. Their acting was atrocious. How am I supposed to be aroused when I'm laughing uncontrollably?

I would rather a scene open with action.

One more example, last night we were watching Backdoor Babysitters. Made both of us laugh and we watched it mostly on FF. Retarded plot and worse acting.

 

[justherhusband]

In my opinion virtually all commercially produced porn is horrible. It's hard to watch and even harder to listen to. And that includes the stuff made by and/or for women. I've searched for decent stuff and it's damn near impossible to find.

Personally, I'd much rather watch genuine amatuer porn. That is, real people just having sex. No script, no phony context. Just 2 people getting each other off.

But that's just me. Just one guy's preference.

 

[RjThoughts]

In my opinion virtually all commercially produced porn is horrible. It's hard to watch and even harder to listen to. And that includes the stuff made by and/or for women. I've searched for decent stuff and it's damn near impossible to find.

Personally, I'd much rather watch genuine amatuer porn. That is, real people just having sex. No script, no phony context. Just 2 people getting each other off.

But that's just me. Just one guy's preference.

I second that motion. Terrible, terrible! Women with fake tits, men with TOO large cocks, acting that makes elementarty school plays look Shakespearian! Plus, it's all about the "money shot."

A local adult book/toy store has been selling amateur porns for the better part of the last three years. My wife and I purchase those, when we want to watch.

I remember the "soft core" porn out of Europe, the late 70s/early 80s, where the movies had plots, somewhat good acting and scripts, the women were real - silicone free and could speak their ways out of wet paper bags.

 

[RjThoughts]

Stats:
I hate the "acting" in the 70s and 80s porn. (My man and I recently watched I Like to be Watched with Christy Canyon. Nice bush on her, and my honey likes her tits. The other gals were not hot, but that's not the point. Their acting was atrocious. How am I supposed to be aroused when I'm laughing uncontrollably?

I would rather a scene open with action.

One more example, last night we were watching Backdoor Babysitters. Made both of us laugh and we watched it mostly on FF. Retarded plot and worse acting.

An aside:

In the early 1990s, I worked in a small, upstate New York mall, at a cafe. A saleswoman at one of the jewelry stores was Christy Caynon's dobbleganger, right down to the incredibly sexy breasts. She would often lunch at our small restaurant or have a sandwich and chips delivered to the store, when circumstances dictated her staying.

Recently, my wife confessed that she had slept with her, and that her breasts were LARGER than Christy's!! Tequila is a good thing

 

[WillowedCabin]

Recently, my wife confessed that she had slept with her, and that her breasts were LARGER than Christy's!! Tequila is a good thing

Your wife is my hero.
That being said, I think I can trace all of my life's problems to tequila. Such a shame it's so damn good.

PS: here are two complimentary links

http://www.makelovenotporn.com/

http://fleshbot.com/#!5147160/real-sex-vs-porn-sex-the-battle-rages-on

Very hilarious.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I second that motion. Terrible, terrible! Women with fake tits, men with TOO large cocks, acting that makes elementarty school plays look Shakespearian! Plus, it's all about the "money shot."

A local adult book/toy store has been selling amateur porns for the better part of the last three years. My wife and I purchase those, when we want to watch.

I remember the "soft core" porn out of Europe, the late 70s/early 80s, where the movies had plots, somewhat good acting and scripts, the women were real - silicone free and could speak their ways out of wet paper bags.

But the men were meh. And yuck. and truly disappointing in the context of all the promises those movies were making.

And then the popular wisdom had it that women thought women were sexier to look at then men -- very conveniently for the men who didn't want to look at men in the first place and didn't want to have to think about what women might prefer.

What was that one that turned into a series-- Evangeline? Pauline? Claudine? The only time she got any guy worth looking at twice, she was in Bangkok or something, and he was a beautiful little Thai prizefighter. In three, four films.

 

[RjThoughts]

But the men were meh. And yuck. and truly disappointing in the context of all the promises those movies were making.

And then the popular wisdom had it that women thought women were sexier to look at then men -- very conveniently for the men who didn't want to look at men in the first place and didn't want to have to think about what women might prefer.

What was that one that turned into a series-- Evangeline? Pauline? Claudine? The only time she got any guy worth looking at twice, she was in Bangkok or something, and he was a beautiful little Thai prizefighter. In three, four films.

I think it was Evangeline.

The acting was STILL better than that in porns!

 

[FarmerTan]

While porn acting may be terrible, the soundtracks can be so cheesy they're awesome. I used to have a copy of Debbie Does Dallas that burnt up my VCR. Its soundtrack was epic IMO.

'70s,early '80s porn also had less silicon and plastic surgery.

 

[Stella_Omega]

chicka-bow-bow-chicka-chicka-bow-bow...

 

[FarmerTan]

If anyone else here has seen Debbie Does Dallas, remember the music playing during the sex scene with the two women and three guys in the shower?
Just epic.

 

[Texguy84]

Just a couple of random thoughts (only skimmed the thread, sorry!)

Pizza Guy scenario: This is such a legendary thing when discussing porn, but I've only actually *seen* it come up twice. And one of those was a pizza girl. I've only seen plumbers show up a few more times than that, and I don't think I've ever seen a cable guy in a porn film.

Now, when I worked as a delivery guy, I desperately wished that scenario could come up a couple of times. Especially with this one girl I delivered for who answered the door in a wifebeater and polkadot boy shorts.

Plot in porn: I've seen porn with and without the plot, and it can make a difference depending on my mood. A lot of the full on "films" (ie: constant overarcing plot rather than just a bunch of seperate scenes) that I have bothered to watch tended to have very silly plots, with the actors obviously knowing not to take any of it seriously and just having fun running around in costume. That can be a lot of fun. Sometimes, the framing story is just there to give some context, ie: the guy getting seduced by his wife's little sister, or some sultry cougar luring in a 20-something naive girl or whatever have you.

People laughing: It's rare, but I've seen it happen. Sometimes someone will just say something in the heat of the moment that is just plain silly or not nearly as sexy as it should have sounded, and folks laugh. Personally, I wonder how folks don't laugh at some of those scenes more, unless it's being edited out or something.

Which reminds me: Orgasmo: Very funny superhero movie poking fun at the porn industry. About 80% of the actors in the film are porn stars. Made by the South Park guys.