Problems with heterosexual pornography; a rant

[GDavidson]

I am reading some of WillowedCabin's entries. Isn't Anais Ninn erotic to all of us, men and women, in part because it's good writing?! I had a raging erection in "The Postman Always Rings Twice" because those two young people wanted to fuck SO, SO badly. Good porn has to be well-written and photographed. Most commercial porn is aimed at a market like cigarettes or cheese. How many men get it up for the Mona Lisa? Damn that little smile intrigues me.
G.

 

[sereneone4u]

I have always loved The Postman Always Rings Twice...hot hot movie

 

[teknight]

Ah, but seduction takes place between the ears...there's nothing to "see."

Between the ears? Is there some new sex position I'm not aware of?! Sounds kinky!

 

[rosco rathbone]

I would like to start off by saying that I am a HUGE porn enthusiast. I think porn has great potential in the liberation of sexuality and promoting acceptance and understanding between different sexual demographics--and it's a non-productive, fun distraction This being said, I think porn is just like anything else that exists; it's 90% shit.

I find that most of the hetero pornography I come across suffers from a few crippling symptoms that really keeps me from sinking my teeth in.

1) a huge lack of POV porn from a woman's perspective. Granted, I'm sure these videos exist, but how come it feels like the porn industry left out 50% of human consciousness?

2) the objectification of the male body. I always feel like the men in these videos tend to be nothing but silent penises thrusting into a screaming body. Aren't men MORE than penises? Aren't there other erogenous zones? And, don't we care if they are enjoying themselves or not? We can't even see their faces!!

3) all hetero porn tends to end with the male orgasm; my question is: why? If the woman was five seconds before writhing on the bed about to finish and the man beats her, the video is over. Why doesn't he finish her, or she finish herself?! It doesn't make any sense.

4) why doesn't anyone laugh in porn? This may seem silly to everyone else, but sex is first and foremost a blast. I feel like if an alien visited our planet and watched all of our porn, he would never know sex was something people thought of as fun. Don't get me wrong, angry or serious sex is HOT... but, whatever happened to, 'let's play put my penis in your vagina'?

**I am not by any means saying that my four 'issues' don't have their place, or cannot be sexy. What I am saying is I'd like some variation in my hetero porn---and I'd like it yesterday!

Am I the only who feels sexually frustrated by bad porn? Am I just crazy?
Help a bitch out.

I agree with some aspects of this.

I don't have much interest in the money shot. I'd rather see a real, unfeigned amateur orgasm on a man's face than watch a squirting cock.

I remember once watching the bloopers at the end of one of those tapes in a series where a sleazy porn producer bangs wannabe starlets...can't remember the series. Anyway, he was fucking her, the camera was on their faces, and he lost it inside her, obviously surprising both of them. It just got too hot and he couldn't stop, totally unacted. Way hotter than the main part of the tape.

 

[WillowedCabin]

I agree with some aspects of this.

I don't have much interest in the money shot. I'd rather see a real, unfeigned amateur orgasm on a man's face than watch a squirting cock.

I remember once watching the bloopers at the end of one of those tapes in a series where a sleazy porn producer bangs wannabe starlets...can't remember the series. Anyway, he was fucking her, the camera was on their faces, and he lost it inside her, obviously surprising both of them. It just got too hot and he couldn't stop, totally unacted. Way hotter than the main part of the tape.

Porn bloopers will always be the best part of porn. Always.

And that being said, I think there is a difference between needing realism in porn, or needing honest, human sexuality in porn--- I don't think I was ever asking for realism... Just a bit of humanity.

 

[Harber]

At the risk of sounding facetious, to the OP: jeese, y'don't say... much of porn is aimed at men and it's not very good?! Surely NOT!

I'd agree with your line about 90% of porn being rubbish - because 90% of most stuff's rubbish. But there's an obvious causality to why porn is the way it is, and from what I've seen of this thread it's all been mentioned a thousand times before, so I won't repeat it.

Sorry to essentially shrug my shoulders at the original point, but y'know, it was kindof an obvious one. Valid, but obvious.

And I don't pay for porn, because I don't watch enough for that to be worth doing. But I think Abbey Winters is a pay site? If I paid for smut, I'd pay for their stuff, as it's very naturalistic, and downright beautiful.

WillowedCabin, have a look at some of IfeelMyself's vids, which are similarly naturalistic, although with an obviously narrower remit. I know some of their stuff's on Fapdu.com.

 

[WillowedCabin]

At the risk of sounding facetious, to the OP: jeese, y'don't say... much of porn is aimed at men and it's not very good?! Surely NOT! ...

...Sorry to essentially shrug my shoulders at the original point, but y'know, it was kindof an obvious one. Valid, but obvious...

...WillowedCabin, have a look at some of IfeelMyself's vids, which are similarly naturalistic, although with an obviously narrower remit. I know some of their stuff's on Fapdu.com.

Okay Harber,
I'm going to attempt not to attack you and jump down your throat, but if it ends up happening, you have my apologies.

First off, I don't know your gender, but it sounds like you are coming from a place of surprise that I would bring this up. Perhaps you are unaware that women are marginalized and criticized for developing unique sexuality and expression in western culture. We are constantly being told that we do not like porn, that women who are sexual are bad and perverted. We are not. When you think of a woman who masturbates, likes high heels, watches porn, and wears a miniskirt, you probably aren't thinking of the next president of the united states. Why is that? And until the day that I am not snickered at for saying, "Wow, I love masturbating, and I also really enjoyed watching that strap on video last night" then expect me to state the supposed obvious. The fact that the mainstream porn industry leaves women out of the demographic is appalling and offensive on a humanistic level. We are fifty percent of human consciousness and we have a voice in the cultural dialogue in sexuality. And oppression affects everyone. Even if one thinks they are not affected by our silence, they are absolutely mistaken. We are a valuable voice that needs to be heard.

The emperor has no clothes!! Why yes, I have stated the obvious. And maybe if I keep shouting it from my tiny soap box, some woman out there reading this might feel like less of a freak for being curious about her sexuality; a person reading this might decide it was high time they picked up a camera and made their own piece of sexual liberation.

And yes, the mighty patriarchy is bare ass naked. And yes, I'm screaming this.

All I'm asking for is a fucking revolution.

 

[Harber]

Um, preaching to the converted here?
You're not exactly pushing feminist boundaries, or deconstructing any social glitches that haven't been illuminated and pulled apart and put back together again.

And in case you didn't notice, you're on Lit - ergo most people of both genders here are fine with expressing their sexuality. You just ran into the middle of a Star Wars convention and shouted 'I thought Empire Strikes Back was rather good'... So excuse me if my response is; 'well, duh'.

Again, apologies for the facetious tone. But seriously, what on earth do you expect me to say? I namechecked two sites which seem to promote more positive views of female sexuality, and you reply by ranting at me about the same subject I've just agreed with?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Perhaps instead of a facetious tone, for which you will have to apologise, you might try a simple statement of understanding and agreement.

 

[Harber]

Very true, Stella.
But I was just taken about by the OP. Shouting 'The sky is BLUE!' on a sunny day would draw confounded stares, and I just couldn't help it.

As for WillowedCabin's revolution? Feminism's had many small revolutions (some big and bold, others subtle and more about assimilation of ideas), and it commonly either gets hijacked and co-opted, or watered down. I don't believe there will never be a revolution with a capital R; we'll just have incremental improvements - often alongside drawbacks and side-effects (as messages and intentions get lost in translation) - with each movement/wave.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Very true, Stella.
But I was just taken about by the OP. Shouting 'The sky is BLUE!' on a sunny day would draw confounded stares, and I just couldn't help it.

Couldn't help but stare confoundedly, eh? Well, if you can't help it, you can't. But that says more about you than about OP, don't you think?

As for WillowedCabin's revolution? Feminism's had many small revolutions (some big and bold, others subtle and more about assimilation of ideas), and it commonly either gets hijacked and co-opted, or watered down. I don't believe there will never be a revolution with a capital R; we'll just have incremental improvements - often alongside drawbacks and side-effects (as messages and intentions get lost in translation) - with each movement/wave.

We're working on it. We WISH we could have what we want, even though we know it's going to take a long time-- sometimes you can't help but holler and stomp and wave your hands in the mother fucking air, yanno what I'm saying?

 

[WillowedCabin]

Very true, Stella.
But I was just taken about by the OP. Shouting 'The sky is BLUE!' on a sunny day would draw confounded stares, and I just couldn't help it.

As for WillowedCabin's revolution? Feminism's had many small revolutions (some big and bold, others subtle and more about assimilation of ideas), and it commonly either gets hijacked and co-opted, or watered down. I don't believe there will never be a revolution with a capital R; we'll just have incremental improvements - often alongside drawbacks and side-effects (as messages and intentions get lost in translation) - with each movement/wave.

You are right, Jedi Master.
Instead of debating ideas online, in a constructive, open forum, I should have used the force.
Forgive me, I am just a young padawan who's struggling not to go to the dark side
(as I hear they have cookies)...

Oh, and about the "incremental improvements"
I say we go the Alice Paul way:

Go big, or go home.

 

[KixxerMass]

I agree! I also hate when the man decides to hurt the female by stranglation, whipping (somewhat acceptable), pushing them through a table, ripping hair and the list goes on. Can't a loving couple be in a porn? Not just pimps and pain sluts.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I agree! I also hate when the man decides to hurt the female by stranglation, whipping (somewhat acceptable), pushing them through a table, ripping hair and the list goes on. Can't a loving couple be in a porn? Not just pimps and pain sluts.

Sounds like you've been surfing the wrong websites.

 

[Harber]

Again, WillowedCabin (can I just call you Willow? that'd be nifty.. ), what do you expect me to say?

Had you bemoaned porn and erotica that gave some humanity and individuality to women, I'd rebuke you with how normalised ideas of hetero sexuality are negatively impacting on the ideal functionality of a world and society firing on both gender cylinders (i.e. embracing the strengths of both male and female).

But you didn't... ergo, I can't really say much more than 'I agree'. And that ain't a debate, young padawan.

As for incremental changes? Tough luck. That's how human nature works: very fucking slowly... Ideas and conditioned norms take generations to change and adapt. Occasionally there are peak moments where things lurch forward, but they're the result of slowly progressive dynamics.

All the foot stomping statements in the world won't help you a damn, if the society you're stamping in isn't already leaning towards change, or near the brink of it. Does that mean all we have to do is accept our environment and wait for nature to take its course? No, the crusaders are necessary to push things forward.

But as Morrissey warbled [brilliantly], these things take time.

Couldn't help but stare confoundedly, eh? Well, if you can't help it, you can't. But that says more about you than about OP, don't you think?

No, not really.

 

[WillowedCabin]

Again, WillowedCabin (can I just call you Willow? that'd be nifty.. ), what do you expect me to say?

Had you bemoaned porn and erotica that gave some humanity and individuality to women, I'd rebuke you with how normalised ideas of hetero sexuality are negatively impacting on the ideal functionality of a world and society firing on both gender cylinders (i.e. embracing the strengths of both male and female).

But you didn't... ergo, I can't really say much more than 'I agree'. And that ain't a debate, young padawan.

As for incremental changes? Tough luck. That's how human nature works: very fucking slowly... Ideas and conditioned norms take generations to change and adapt. Occasionally there are peak moments where things lurch forward, but they're the result of slowly progressive dynamics.

All the foot stomping statements in the world won't help you a damn, if the society you're stamping in isn't already leaning towards change, or near the brink of it. Does that mean all we have to do is accept our environment and wait for nature to take its course? No, the crusaders are necessary to push things forward.

But as Morrissey warbled [brilliantly], these things take time.

No, not really.

Foot stomping won't work?
Oh,
Well good thing I've gone to four protests this month.
Although, I look cute when I foot stomp... so I feel it still has merit.

What I find funny about feminism, and at least verbalizing it (even if it seems painfully obvious to everyone else), is that it has been such a catharsis, a repentance. I feel like I'm apologizing to myself for all the times I didn't love myself enough, or other people. Things like saying 'culture doesn't make porn for me, and it's not okay' may be the ubiquitous, feminist hack you hear on other online sites, but for me it is always a revelation. These seemingly simple concepts have altered my art, life, and relationships drastically. I apologize if you find my intellectual masturbation tiresome--

But really,
what better place to masturbate with, intellectually and otherwise, than Lit?

PS: I thought y'all would be tickled to hear that I designed a shirt sporting a woman with her legs spread, moaning and masturbating. On the back it says "Women masturbate. Get over it." I cannot tell you the amount of priceless gasps I got from the frat/sorority clones.

Hanes plain white T= 10.00$
Black sharpie= 3.00$
Having business major in your bio class call you a dyke= Priceless.

 

[Harber]

I'm tempted to just post 'wot r u warin' and leave it at that, but then again I like writin' stuff..

So you're a foot stomping crusader, front and centre in the battle against the Evil Patriarchs? Good for you (that's genuine, not taking the piss).

Your intellectual masturbation's great, and were I cracking open a Germaine Greer book for the first time I'd be right there with ya (so to speak). I treat women as individuals, don't bat an eyelid if a woman subverts/usurps gender norms, and verbally and textually battle the minions of the Patriarchs at every turn. I also make a point of trying to support/affirm any feminist/non-conformist leanings teenage girl's have, as they bemoan the fact that their mother wants them to pack in football, and just sit down and be an ordinary girl in an ordinary skirt.

But unless I'm going toe-to-toe with the aforementioned minions (or a woman who's sleepwalked into a complicit alliance with them), I can't really get uppity about it anymore. Especially on a website populated by a lot of sexually liberated men and women.

As for these statements of the [should be] bleedin' obvious changing your life, art, and wotnot? Good for you (again, genuine). Though I can't join you in your expressions of femaleness, because, well, y'kniow - I have a penis. And I think you'd probably agree we have enough phallic imagery and iconography to last a few lifetimes.. so I'll not be rendering my own genitalia on canvas, painted in blood and semen.

But if I ever become a porn mogul and end up controlling the industry, I'll PM you and let you shape the porn industry to your every whim. How's that sound?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Its an odd tactic, to castigate someone while agreeing with them.

It makes you seem kind of creepy, actually.

Have a nice day!

 

[KoPilot]

And I think you'd probably agree we have enough phallic imagery and iconography to last a few lifetimes.. so I'll not be rendering my own genitalia on canvas, painted in blood and semen.

If you knew anything about art history, you'd know how doing just that would actually be breaking away from the tradition of western art. Show the titties, hide the cock. Or at least pretend it's not a cock. (Washington monument, much?)

Part of the process of sexually liberating women would involve convincing the public that the imagery many of them find erotic isn't ugly, shameful, or not worthy of depiction.

i.e. cocks.

In fact, in ancient Greek art, it was considered only socially acceptable to depict men with itty bitty dicks, and large--or even ones of average size--were used for comedic effect.

So let's work on those misconceptions. :>

 

[Harber]

Stella, I'm not "castigating" Willow[edCabin], it's just a bit of verbal-- I mean, textual jousting.

KoPilot, it's true I'm no art history major, but I have a reasonable idea of how various cultures have represented gender identity and why, and I really don't think we (us in the West) would really gain much from exploring the nature of what it means to be male. There's a causal necessity to change how the essential female body is perceived, and I don't think there's a comparable reason for doing likewise with men's bodies.

A woman's body is a thing of change. Men's? Not so much. We have no menarche or menopause, and how we (and others) relate to our body never really changes. But the cultural idea of the womb is obfuscated by various factors (many of them derived from patriarchal BS, e.g. poison still drips from Leviticus), resulting in a need to re-examine what perceived femininity means to femaleness.

The cunt - and I use that word both as a neutral or positive adjective, never pejorative - needs to be demystified, for men and most women. The cock? Just isn't as relevant. If you could outline why I'm way off on this one, go ahead.

 

[KoPilot]

Stella, I'm not "castigating" Willow[edCabin], it's just a bit of verbal-- I mean, textual jousting.

KoPilot, it's true I'm no art history major, but I have a reasonable idea of how various cultures have represented gender identity and why, and I really don't think we (us in the West) would really gain much from exploring the nature of what it means to be male. There's a causal necessity to change how the essential female body is perceived, and I don't think there's a comparable reason for doing likewise with men's bodies.

A woman's body is a thing of change. Men's? Not so much. We have no menarche or menopause, and how we (and others) relate to our body never really changes. But the cultural idea of the womb is obfuscated by various factors (many of them derived from patriarchal BS, e.g. poison still drips from Leviticus), resulting in a need to re-examine what perceived femininity means to femaleness.

The cunt - and I use that word both as a neutral or positive adjective, never pejorative - needs to be demystified, for men and most women. The cock? Just isn't as relevant. If you could outline why I'm way off on this one, go ahead.

Walk into any art museum-- what do you see? The vast majority of what western civilization calls fine art was conceived, imagined, and made by men, for the enjoyment and intellectualizing of other men (if their wives happen to tag along and "ooh" or "ahh" at the pretty pictures too, then that's all well and good): typical male gaze stuff. How many male nudes are there compared to female nudes? There's a lot of literal TnA to be found through the history of art, but the same can't really be said of CnB: the best you get is metaphor, in painting men at work, or at war, or even (as I'd personally argue) in the likes of the landscapes of the Hudson River School tradition of American painting. To the western world, men are their mind and their actions, while women are their flesh and adornments, and this would be plain as day to see in any general catalogue of western art history.

Much of the rest is harder to quantify and relies more heavily on anecdote, but there's very much that sense of women being the gatekeepers of sex and sexuality. You're correct in that there's mysticism surrounding the vulva, but there's just as much surrounding the penis. With women, it's almost a "noble savage" kind of trope going on, undercutting the reality of what it is to be female (funny, it's only men that seem to have this mystical reverence for women and her physical processes, while you'd be hard pressed to find a woman that feels that way; I can assure you that I've never met a single female that put virginity on any sort pedestal (just safety and mental health), much less menstruation or old age), but with men it's just a gross overstatement, a single loud, obnoxious note.

Both lines of thinking stray far from doing either gender any kind of real justice, and to me, the first step in turning them into healthier perspectives would be to get people to realize that men are just as much gatekeepers of sexuality as women are. That they're capable of being just as hot and turned into eye-candy, that straight women do in fact masturbate to erotic images of men and not women, that we are not obligated to appreciate naked girls in erotica we're meant to consume (because the male gaze is such that everyone should appreciate it, right?), that hot guys aren't comedic tropes or devalued simply because their main role or draw is that women find them attractive (because saying the things we like are stupid or silly is almost just as bad as saying we're stupid or silly), acknowledge that just as much beauty can be found in the male form as the female form, and take the penis down a peg or three from its place roughly somewhere between 'magical-cure all' and 'representative of what all of humanity stands for'.

So please... draw that cock, would you?

 

[JimInAsia]

Are these the right questions? (My first serious post)

Thanks for motivating me to clarify my thoughts on a topic that I have studied intensively and constantly both theoretically and practically - often to the point of exhaustion.
In return, hetero-porn has provided most of the triple A orgasms in a lifetime full of them.
So, one point at a time:

1) a huge lack of POV porn from a woman's perspective. Granted, I'm sure these videos exist, but how come it feels like the porn industry left out 50% of human consciousness?

On the one hand, it's true that most of the big players and 'shapers' in the porn industry are men whose main pre-occupation is to maintain and defend their privileged position. Therefore they are usually conservative in their thinking, straightforward and traditional in their values.They are the producers of pornography and they produce exactly what you would expect from them..

But all of the previous paragraph (with the exception of the last sentence) applies equally to the motor industry; a lot of the mainstream entertainment industries; the advertising and PR industry... and more. It does not apply exclusively to the porn industry and so can't be considered as an argument against porn in particular.

On the other hand, the last ten years have made access to the business easy and free of restrictions (so far) that the equality of opportunity is obvious and there are a surprising number of female webmistresses who run sites which are very specifically designed for women.

Drop in as a guest on one of the many adult website forums and read what today's players are thinking. It's fun!

2) the objectification of the male body. I always feel like the men in these videos tend to be nothing but silent penises thrusting into a screaming body. Aren't men MORE than penises? Aren't there other erogenous zones? And, don't we care if they are enjoying themselves or not? We can't even see their faces!!

A movie which consisted of a lot of gracious sex between people of almost perfect physique, where the camera holds on the woman's face as her pupils dilate and tears spring to her eyes from the sheer depth of her orgasm, where the men follow that prime instinct - forcibly denied by traditional porn stars - to achieve the deepest possible penetration at the moment of orgasm.
Then, following a long post-coital, fetal hug we could have a two-shot of our exhausted lovers' lingering gaze and, as the orchestral soundtrack slowly fades - lingering just long enough to set up the tone for the lovers dialogue - in which He confesses that he has always been worried that he was too small to fully satisfy a woman. There follows a poignant moment where the woman chooses truth over thoughtfulness as She, in turn, confesses to faking her orgasm. (Incidentally confronting the audience who had believed it to be real).
The rest of the movie takes place in various parts of the house and explores Their struggles hopes and fears - they, all the while thoroughly explore each other.

That would be nice: stimulating, provocative, moving and arousing.
But it wouldn't be porn, it would be an art film or a very good example of erotica.

Porn isn't drama or real-life documentary. It deliberately reduces all of human experience to that of sexual arousal to the point of orgasm; the human lifetime to the one or two hours it takes to engage in extensive foreplay and acrobatic penetration; and, yes, a man to a cock* and a woman to a cunt*.


* (penis and vagina are too p.c. for porn)

3) all hetero porn tends to end with the male orgasm; my question is: why? If the woman was five seconds before writhing on the bed about to finish and the man beats her, the video is over. Why doesn't he finish her, or she finish herself?! It doesn't make any sense.

The vast majority of porn watchers are men and most of them use it to wank over and most of themturn it off as soon as they have wiped the spunk off their fingers - many forget and gum-up the remote.
The average porn viewer expects a progressive sequence to their action: peaks of high arousal, spaced with quieter, less intensive moments, the peaks successively getting higher and closer together - an explosive climax is the only logical ending.
Anything after that is irrelevant.

Too many mainstream movie directors make the ending of their movies stretch to eternity (E.g.Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings III).Porn is the only moving picture genre that usually gets the endings right.

Furthermore, nothing in a porn movie is intended to make us care for the characters or respond emotionally to them. Who cares if He is a considerate lover or the producers distribute orgasms fairly throughout the cast - as long as He can keep it up, She seems healthy, He has a big cock a reasonably pleasing asshole that doesn't distract us during the ball-cam shots.

Porn isn't real - don't expect much veracity

4) why doesn't anyone laugh in porn? This may seem silly to everyone else, but sex is first and foremost a blast. I feel like if an alien visited our planet and watched all of our porn, he would never know sex was something people thought of as fun. Don't get me wrong, angry or serious sex is HOT... but, whatever happened to, 'let's play put my penis in your vagina'?

Come on, WillowedCabin, Peter North gets many a good laugh from his massive ejaculations and Ron Jeremy is a veritable stand up comedian. Most 70s and 80's porn is incredibly funny. Just a glance at the titles of current porn releases gives the lie to your argument (Ripe for the Pipe, Jurassic Cock, Black Grannies In Bootyland). Oh, and I just searched for "let's play put my penis in your vagina" and got over a million hits - I only checked the first few pages but many links were to porn sites.

**I am not by any means saying that my four 'issues' don't have their place, or cannot be sexy. What I am saying is I'd like some variation in my hetero porn---and I'd like it yesterday!

A lot of what you want is out there but a lot of it wouldn't be considered porn.
Be less passive in what you view and more eclectic with your sources - or create your own site, from the responses in this thread you are not alone in your preferences.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Be less passive in what you view and more eclectic with your sources - or create your own site, from the responses in this thread you are not alone in your preferences.

Gotta find seed money for that, as has also been mentioned.

And as has also been mentioned, women tend to not be real reliable porn buyers.

And also as has been mentioned, one cannot view what doesn't exist, and the "eclectic" sources don't have it either.

A lot of what you want is out there but a lot of it wouldn't be considered porn.

In which case it wouldn't be what the women here have been talking about. What-- you think we don't know the difference?

 

[WillowedCabin]

This sounds way more angry than I actually am...I'm just tired...

Thanks for motivating me to clarify my thoughts on a topic that I have studied intensively and constantly both theoretically and practically - often to the point of exhaustion.
In return, hetero-porn has provided most of the triple A orgasms in a lifetime full of them.
So, one point at a time:

You're welcome.
And I don't think I was saying hetero porn was bad, just that it wasn't working for me. If I don't like vanilla ice cream, that doesn't mean it's not valid or real--or worthy of tasting. I hope I never sounded like that...

On the one hand, it's true that most of the big players and 'shapers' in the porn industry are men whose main pre-occupation is to maintain and defend their privileged position. Therefore they are usually conservative in their thinking, straightforward and traditional in their values.They are the producers of pornography and they produce exactly what you would expect from them..

But all of the previous paragraph (with the exception of the last sentence) applies equally to the motor industry; a lot of the mainstream entertainment industries; the advertising and PR industry... and more. It does not apply exclusively to the porn industry and so can't be considered as an argument against porn in particular.

Look, this may have nothing to do with you, but I didn't understand a damn thing you just said. Something about how maintaining their position requires conservative outlooks... But that's not really a logical progression. Could you flesh out your point a bit more?

On the other hand, the last ten years have made access to the business easy and free of restrictions (so far) that the equality of opportunity is obvious and there are a surprising number of female webmistresses who run sites which are very specifically designed for women.

Drop in as a guest on one of the many adult website forums and read what today's players are thinking. It's fun!

I feel like you've missed the point of my argument if you're asking me to hunt for porn that appeals to women... That being said, I would love to get some recommendations! As I'm sure would many people.

A movie which consisted of a lot of gracious sex between people of almost perfect physique, where the camera holds on the woman's face as her pupils dilate and tears spring to her eyes from the sheer depth of her orgasm, where the men follow that prime instinct - forcibly denied by traditional porn stars - to achieve the deepest possible penetration at the moment of orgasm.
Then, following a long post-coital, fetal hug we could have a two-shot of our exhausted lovers' lingering gaze and, as the orchestral soundtrack slowly fades - lingering just long enough to set up the tone for the lovers dialogue - in which He confesses that he has always been worried that he was too small to fully satisfy a woman. There follows a poignant moment where the woman chooses truth over thoughtfulness as She, in turn, confesses to faking her orgasm. (Incidentally confronting the audience who had believed it to be real).
The rest of the movie takes place in various parts of the house and explores Their struggles hopes and fears - they, all the while thoroughly explore each other.

That would be nice: stimulating, provocative, moving and arousing.
But it wouldn't be porn, it would be an art film or a very good example of erotica.

Porn isn't drama or real-life documentary. It deliberately reduces all of human experience to that of sexual arousal to the point of orgasm; the human lifetime to the one or two hours it takes to engage in extensive foreplay and acrobatic penetration; and, yes, a man to a cock* and a woman to a cunt*.
* (penis and vagina are too p.c. for porn)

I think we need to get something clear here-- you can not define the difference between porn and erotica. You simply cannot. It's too abstract in concept. I am not going to try to say what is porn and what is erotica, I am only critiquing things that openly market themselves as porn. For example, my next door neighbor watches The Cooking Channel as his porn. Is that not his porn? Is it his erotica? What is the difference? I also find it interesting how in your 'perfect erotica movie' you had their emotional depth and perfect bodies on display. Neither of those things interest me, or are relevant to this discussion.

I am an artist. My main way of making bread is by acting, and I'm sorry-- I'm not asking for emotional backstory. I'm not asking for documentary. I'm asking for people to express their own sexuality fully and naturally in imaginary circumstances. Oh, and I'd like that on camera. That is it. You can keep your emotional climaxes and your lace-- just give me the good hardcore stuff which doesn't discriminate against me.

The vast majority of porn watchers are men and most of them use it to wank over and most of themturn it off as soon as they have wiped the spunk off their fingers - many forget and gum-up the remote.
The average porn viewer expects a progressive sequence to their action: peaks of high arousal, spaced with quieter, less intensive moments, the peaks successively getting higher and closer together - an explosive climax is the only logical ending.
Anything after that is irrelevant.

With women's pleasure being so irrelevant, it's a wonder we don't watch porn--isn't it?

Too many mainstream movie directors make the ending of their movies stretch to eternity (E.g.Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings III).Porn is the only moving picture genre that usually gets the endings right.

I love how you make broad statements and expect us to fill in the blanks. It's cute.

Furthermore, nothing in a porn movie is intended to make us care for the characters or respond emotionally to them. Who cares if He is a considerate lover or the producers distribute orgasms fairly throughout the cast - as long as He can keep it up, She seems healthy, He has a big cock a reasonably pleasing asshole that doesn't distract us during the ball-cam shots.

You are right, we're not meant to emotionally respond to them. But I don't think I was asking for that. I think I was just asking that both sides be equally shot and equally represented--oh yeah, and that we actually have them enjoy themselves up there.

Porn isn't real - don't expect much veracity

You know, I mentioned a few times already that I'm not looking for realism. I mentioned that I was looking for a story truth. Yes, we already suspend disbelief with the genre, I.e. even though we know pizza boys don't want to fuck you, we still believe that he is ready for action if you leave him a tip, because it's porn. What I'm asking for is for the actors to actually have fun up there and enjoy their sexuality. That is it. Show us people who want to express their own sexual voice.
...God, just talking about this gets me going...

Come on, WillowedCabin, Peter North gets many a good laugh from his massive ejaculations and Ron Jeremy is a veritable stand up comedian. Most 70s and 80's porn is incredibly funny. Just a glance at the titles of current porn releases gives the lie to your argument (Ripe for the Pipe, Jurassic Cock, Black Grannies In Bootyland). Oh, and I just searched for "let's play put my penis in your vagina" and got over a million hits - I only checked the first few pages but many links were to porn sites.

I'm too tired to point out that you have misunderstood what I was asking.

A lot of what you want is out there but a lot of it wouldn't be considered porn.
Be less passive in what you view and more eclectic with your sources - or create your own site, from the responses in this thread you are not alone in your preferences.

How about this,
You stop telling me what porn is and isn't
And I'll stop getting irritated.

Deal?

 

[JimInAsia]

Hopeful this will clarify

You're welcome.

Thanks for creating a thread that helped me to clarify my ideas on this subject. I sorry that I didn't keep strictly on topic, and that I rambled a bit. I assure that it was not my intention to be provokative or to be obscure or much, much, worse to sound like I was teaching you. I hope I don't bore you (or irritate) but your very detailed response was very considerate so I will take few minutes to answer the one or two questions you raised. Please don't feel you have to respond but if you see more errors in my thinking, I'd love you to point them out.

And I don't think I was saying hetero porn was bad, just that it wasn't working for me. If I don't like vanilla ice cream, that doesn't mean it's not valid or real--or worthy of tasting. I hope I never sounded like that...

No you didn't, I understand you were exploring what you don't like about vanilla porn . You posed some excellent questions which I wanted to try to respond to, not to be critical, just to give my take on a very interesting subject.

Look, this may have nothing to do with you, but I didn't understand a damn thing you just said. Something about how maintaining their position requires conservative outlooks... But that's not really a logical progression. Could you flesh out your point a bit more?

I'll try to remember to keep things as simple as possible - editing is not my strong suit.
Reflecting on the male dominance of the porn industry, I wanted to offer the argument that that is the real reason why the dominant theme is
men have dominant roles and women are usually passive. Furthermore, with a few exceptions, a significant number of porn vids, comics, photos and stories use tried andtested formulae and are just variations on one or two themes, boring, unstimulating, retro-rubbish.
However, as wrote the first paragraph, I realised that the same thing could be said of any male dominated industry -e.g car manufacturers still insist on draping semi naked women over their latest model despite many women (and this man) are offended by this practice. The objectification of women is not unique to porn and until the ratio of men to women approaches 1:1 it is unlikely to change.

I feel like you've missed the point of my argument if you're asking me to hunt for porn that appeals to women... That being said, I would love to get some recommendations! As I'm sure would many people.

There is far more stuff produced by women than there has ever been - it just not as well financed and therefore not as visible. I'm not suggesting that you hunt for porn that appeals to women, rather, if you want something better than what's readily available it won't come to you - you have to go and seek it out. I do have some recommendations, though.

I think we need to get something clear here-- you can not define the difference between porn and erotica. You simply cannot. It's too abstract in concept.

If you can't differentiate between porn and erotica, we have no common ground and therefore nothing to discuss.
You chose the subject: "hetero porn" if you refuse clarify what that is, you are asking for thoughts about that. if you refuse to clarify what that means exactly, agin, there is nothing to discuss. I tried to say what I think the word means, basically, the distiguishing characteristic is that it is primarily focused on physical acts of sex, and the raw display of genitalia. It contains nothing but fucking, cumming, holes an the many ways of filling them.
Erotica, on the other hand focuses on imagination, and sensuality and may contain sexual acts but that is not a precondition. Therefore, The Cooking Channel can no way be classed as porn but could be erotica.
My "perfect movie" was an attempt to illustrate that once you de-objectify characters, by, for example examining their feelings, you do not get a better porn movie, a better movie, arguably but not porn. By the way, I wouldn't want to watch it either but it serves as an illustration.

I'm sorry you think that is irrelevant to the discussion. I think it is central to it.

You can keep your emotional climaxes and your lace-- just give me the good hardcore stuff which doesn't discriminate against me.

I'll see what I can do.

With women's pleasure being so irrelevant, it's a wonder we don't watch porn--isn't it?

I do not consider anyone's pleasure to be irrelevant. When I had my website I refused to list movies that slandered women I do not understand the mentality of people who see nothing wrong with promoting a video with phrases like "King Dong stretches whore- cunt. These nasty cunts are pounded til they scream for him to stop - which he won't do until they have got what they deserve".

I love how you make broad statements and expect us to fill in the blanks. It's cute.

I'll take that as a complement

What I'm asking for is for the actors to actually have fun up there and enjoy their sexuality. That is it. Show us people who want to express their own sexual voice.

Me too, if any of the actors seem not to enjoy themselves _ I switch off. Again a few links coming later.

...God, just talking about this gets me going...

...Me too.

I'm too tired to point out that you have misunderstood what I was asking.

You asked why is there no fun or laughter in porn. I think there is but maybe we have a different sense of fun.

You stop telling me what porn is and isn't
And I'll stop getting irritated.
Deal?

Sorry, no. Your post is about porn how can I answer without defining what I'm writing about?
What about a compromise - allow me to write about what I think porn is, if you don't want to be irritated, don' t read it.
Seriously I can't accept responsibilty for irrating you. I don't know you, how can I second guess what makes you irritable but on a subject as personal as this, I will not accept censorship - it would be so patronising.

Anyway, I actually agree with you for the most part so I don't see a problem here.

Finally, as promised:

Consensual S&M - Particpants obviously enjoyng it. Reveals how it was for her in pre and post interviews
http://www.sexandsubmission.com/site/shoots.jsp
http://www.fuckingmachines.com/site/?c=1
http://news.behindkink.com/
http://www.hogtied.com/site/?c=1

A bit of fun
http://www.filestube.com/a24b193c487da0ab03ea,g/Pornolympics-Sai-Tai-Tiger.html
http://www.2-bigtobetrue.info/

Rough but consensual
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4731490/Rocco_Siffredi_(megapack)_-_14_movies
This is a torrent link.


Feminist porn
http://realsexrealcouples.com/
http://www.femaleorgasmvideo.org/
http://www.bayswan.org/sws.html
http://goodmenproject.com/good-feed-blog/feminist-porn/
http://www.dirtydiaries.se/

http://www.nofauxxx.com/
“Porn that doesn’t fake it!” A great site with self-proclaimed “radical porn” that is inclusive of all natural body types and embraces queer and transfolk. Porn with a political edge.

Real couples
http://www.ukcouplesfucking.com/
http://www.realfuckingcouples.com/site/?c=1
http://www.warmkiss.com/teen-cum.html

http://www.pornforwomen.net/porn_for_women.htm